155 Knut Bentzen on how to scale virtual fencing, the true enabler of regeneration

A conversation with Knut Benzen, CEO of NoFence, about the enormous potential of managed grazing of ruminants on food quality, protein production, soil carbon, water quality, animal welfare, etc.
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The second in a series of interviews unpacking the potential of virtual fencing with the team of NoFence.  We talk about farmers and their stories, methane, research and transitions!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

The potential of managed grazing of ruminants is enormous on food quality, protein production, soil carbon, water quality, animal welfare, and a lot more. So could virtual fencing be the enabler to scale this seriously during the next decade of regeneration? And what is needed for that? This is a conversation with a CEO that has experience in scaling up technology companies and who is coming into the regeneration space. We talk about farmers and their stories, profit, methane, research, and transitions. Welcome to another episode of In March last year, we launched our membership community to make it easy for fans to support our work. And so many of you have joined as a member. We've launched different types of benefits, exclusive content, Q&A webinars with former guests, Ask Me Anything sessions, plus so much more to come in the future. For more information on the different tiers, benefits and how to become a member, check gumroad.com slash investingbridge.com. an egg or find the link below thank you Welcome to another episode of the podcast today, the second in a series of interviews unpacking the potential of virtual fencing with the team of NoFence. And today we have the CEO, Knut Benson. Welcome, Knut.

SPEAKER_01: 1:45

Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot, Koen.

SPEAKER_00: 1:47

And you had quite a considerable working life before joining a virtual fencing company. So what brought you to that and how did you end up in soil?

SPEAKER_01: 1:56

That's a good question, really, and a quite considerable working life.

SPEAKER_00: 1:59

Yeah, I'm 59, so I'm... I didn't want to say you're old. I'm sorry. That wasn't my implication, but you have a lot of, let's say... You have a lot of experience.

SPEAKER_01: 2:07

I do, I do. And why did I do it? I think there's several reasons. I have to say, just emotionally, I totally fell for the concept when I heard what it was about. It happened quite traditionally. So I got this call from a headhunter and I'd even misheard the name. So I thought they said it was a company with IoT and virtual. And they said, I thought I said, no sense. And that didn't make any sense to me at all. But when I understood what it was, no offense, I looked it up. I totally fell for it. Why did I do so? I guess being at my age and being of my generation I kind of feel that it's time to give back a bit to society. I feel that Consciously or unconsciously, we've been utilizing nature in a way which hasn't been sustainable. And being a Norwegian, being brought up and being so fortunate to be in a cabin in the summers, which was way up in the mountains in Norway, going up to local farmer, helping herding the cows, milking the cows and all these things, I always had a close connection to agriculture and to farming and to livestock. So when this opportunity comes up, it's a Norwegian patent, I felt I could use All my experience from the last 14 years and other companies I've been in, well, there was just no question. I just had to jump at it. So

SPEAKER_00: 3:23

yeah, here I am. And how has been the journey? Because it's been since, let's say, summer last year, 2021. That's like four or five months. How's been this crash course of grazing and fencing? And what's the biggest surprise?

SPEAKER_01: 3:36

I wonder if the biggest surprise in one way was that something I learned as a kid in school about the photosynthesis is something important and that it sort of had been totally off my mind for so many years. And I do believe I'm a quite conscious person with regard to nature. I'm involved. I've been on a board in a foundation that supports prevention of plastic pollution of the ocean. I'm a freediver. I've been close to nature all my life, but seeing and understanding the impact of that and also having seen David Attenborough tell me about how the Attenborough actually was made out of the photosynthesis from the algae in the ocean in the beginning and how the early ruminants like dinosaurs were sort of keeping that whole cycle alive and now seeing how it's done and can be done with regenerative and managed grazing and silver pasture and so forth. It really blew my mind. Yeah, I thought what a fantastic gift to be able to be part of such a journey and contribute.

SPEAKER_00: 4:38

And for sure, you had to explain it to people that are completely new to, let's say, grazing as well. So if you would say, If somebody will knock on the door and says, I'm very interested in nature and photosynthesis, but what does it have to do with grazing? What would be your few sentences to get that hook and then explain? I mean, the complexity is impossible in a few sentences, but to explain enough for that person to get super excited or interested to dig further, because that's what I see often on the podcast as well. Like the importance of that simple between brackets concept is mind boggling, but at the same time, you don't want to overload somebody with too much information. So how would you, if you meet somebody in the hallway of, a conference, which hopefully will happen soon in person. What would be your conversation there if somebody said, ah, photosynthesis, what does it have to do with grazing?

SPEAKER_01: 5:23

Yeah, I think the number one thing you need to find out if people actually know what the photosynthesis does, right? But the sheer fact that it takes carbon dioxide out of the air and sequestrates carbon and releases oxygen, that whole process, that it's accelerated by grazing. And I think the best explanation I've heard so far is from a fellow here in Norway who also has a podcast and he made the comparison between the way ruminants were grazing back before humans domesticated them and that they were hunted by predators they were herding together in tight little herds grazing and competing for the food and then they would leave their dumps and then would move on and let the grass rest and that circle of getting stressed and then have rest just like a muscle if you want to train a muscle you stress it hard and then you let it rest the problem comes if you over train it or you don't train it, that's the same thing with the soil. And simply the fact that the bacteria that is in the stomachs of the ruminants actually is needed for that circle to go proper on in the soil. It just makes total sense.

SPEAKER_00: 6:31

Which is very interesting because people would say just that fact that the animal is needed is already a very interesting point that many people overlook. Like it's not enough to put a big fence around a nature area that we want to preserve and then hope that it regenerates, which it might do in a certain way. But with animals, with ruminants mostly included in that, which could be wild, which could be not wild, but managed in a certain way, because there it comes back. Like it's the management of, it can be sped up considerably or even without that, it won't take off entirely. Like it's the need of livestock and animals, grazing animals in regeneration is something that many people didn't get their heads around yet. The second question is, should we eat them? or not I think that's a whole different discussion on the vegan side of things but the use between brackets because I'm not saying it in a bad way of animals as a tool in regeneration is something that we still I still find many people that completely overlook that like grass with animals or grass without animals is a very different thing or a forest with or a landscape with or without there's a very different potential in terms of photosynthesis and in terms of thus the amount of solar energy we can take and thus the amount of life biomass etc do you see that as well very often that surprise like are we actually potentially need animals in this process of regeneration so far I

SPEAKER_01: 7:50

haven't I don't know maybe it's because I live in Norway as well but I think there's a lot of people who are quite close to nature as such there so they sort of see that link quite closely maybe it's because I speak to people that are in that situation maybe it would be different if I went to some of the gaming halls or whatever and spoke to young people that aren't that close necessarily I don't know but I think in general the People have a pretty good understanding that nature hasn't really invented a whole lot that is unproductive or goes the wrong way, right? There's a circle of life that makes a lot of sense to most people. And maybe by actually also pointing out some of the opposites, you get a lot of understanding. So, well, over millions of years, nature has developed things like the ruminants, like the cow, for instance, and like the goat, and they typically grass in different areas and the giraffe eat grass in different areas as well. And they're sort of specialized for those specific types of food that they have. And that whole ecosystem around them simply works. So if you take the opposite, why does it make sense to put a machine between the pasture and the ruminant? That just makes sense. So putting the machine between the grass and the cow, when the cow is the most efficient grazing machine there is. Yeah, that also helps people intuitively see it, I think. But then... Getting more research into this is clearly a way to help educate everyone, I think, including ourselves, right? We're kind of rediscovering something which has been there for a long time. Now do we need to understand more of it? That's the beauty of science, isn't

SPEAKER_00: 9:30

it? And then the next step is sort of like you're still talking to that person in the hallway of a conference to the technology, to virtual fencing. How do you describe that in a few sentences to someone that never heard about it before and that basically never heard about it before like what does that mean just like you heard it wrong maybe the first time like oh it's devices and it makes no sense like what would you say then

SPEAKER_01: 9:53

well i try to explain simply what it is and most people heard about if you talk to people in urban areas you know they know about geofencing of push bikes right so that's a basically the same principle right you use the gps but simply helping them understand that the way you normally would fence animals inside with a physical fence or an electrical fence and this basically takes that whole concept and attaches it to the animal itself. Instead of just letting the animal feel the border of the fence when it hits the barbed wire or it hits the electrical fence, you actually have a sound system that gives the animal predictability. So before it enters that border, it will hear this beep, beep, beep, beep, beep sound that sort of tells it that here's the border. And they learn it so quick. And to me, telling the stories about animals that do this, and also there's this funny story, you know, yourself is always the beauty, right? And there's this goat that one of our founders has, and she's such a clever little girl, that goat. She knows where the fence goes, and she passes past it just to grab what she wants, and then she turns about and goes back before she gets any pulse. So that's how smart these animals are. And you see how it works on another one. One of the cows is called the fence trimmer because she consistently goes around the fence. You can always trace that particular animal and see where the fence is actually going. So telling these stories about how the animals behave when they're using the technology, that's a good thing. And then, of course, the app and putting all this in the hands of the farmer.

SPEAKER_00: 11:27

So you come with this scale-up experience in a very different industry, the virtual conferencing industry. I mean, there's the word virtual, but that's all that is. And you bring that to agriculture, to land use and to technology. Like there is definitely an exponential piece in that, definitely a scalable piece. But there's also a very old industry, a very large industry What do you see? Let's say, what's the biggest barrier? What do you see now? You've been a few months in the company and looking around this sector as for this to really, to really take off. And like in 10 years, most fencing are most, let's say most animals are managed in this way. Most fencing has disappeared. What is us stopping from doing that? I think there's many things. I think

SPEAKER_01: 12:06

it's hard to sort of pick like one particular thing. It's interesting that you mentioned my own industry because I Videoconferencing, I think, really became the big hit when people had to, right? The pandemic hit, and the pandemic did more for videoconferencing than 20 years of marketing and

SPEAKER_00: 12:25

sales. Okay. So what do we need for virtual fencing that people have to? Is it like a ban on fencing? Or is it climate? And what would be that push that we might need or farmers might need?

SPEAKER_01: 12:39

I'm almost thinking back three, four, five years when I started freediving and I got into an environment where people were very concerned about plastic pollution in the ocean. And then there was a whale that stranded on the coast of Norway that had so many plastic bags inside it. It died because of that. It really opened the eyes of the public. And then I think almost within a year, when people really sort of saw the connection, people were smart. People aren't stupid. They're smart. So when they see the real connection, then they will act accordingly. And this is what happened, I think, when it comes to plastic pollution. You see how society has turned around and made plastic pollution of the ocean like one of the real problems. big things on the agenda. I believe that when you start to see what UN says about how the rate at which we're losing our topsoil, I think maybe what people need to do is to sort of see the practical aspects of it. If you take the whole picture, it almost becomes overwhelming for us all, doesn't it? It's

SPEAKER_00: 13:39

too much. Yeah. Because this topsoil is always interesting, but only for like the geeks of us that are deep in it. Like a whale on a beach is filled with plastic or filled with plastic is a very, I mean, everybody sees that like there's no way to look around and i don't know i'm not wishing for something like that in regen egg but or regeneration but i'm do you see feel like what is the moment there maybe there are different moments in different places like maybe it's a very local thing like a certain bushfire that never happened or a certain heat wave or a certain flood or a certain something that triggers looking differently at soil i don't know i don't know if it's going to be or on a country level i'm thinking what could trigger action around this and action of almost everybody or enough of a minority that it actually triggers something we will look back at that and say ah those were the points I don't know we won't pick them now probably but it's like top solos is so slow and it's so fast but it's so slow as if you look at it that it's simply yeah it's been going on for 60 70 sometimes hundreds sometimes thousands of years and yeah we worried about it but it's not it doesn't get on top of the agenda

SPEAKER_01: 14:43

true but the political landscape is incredibly important here as well I believe and I think that when you start to see Science coming with more and more proof. That will also change one of the most important things, I think, in this whole landscape. And that is the way we are running subsidies across agriculture in all nations and continents, because it is a heavily subsidized industry. And that is the simplest way to do it. Again, like you said, I've been working for a global company now for almost 15 years and traveled a lot to the US, to Asia, Europe. And what I've seen is... There's such a change when people are doing something about subsidies. Being in Norwegian, electric cars has sort of been the big thing because electrical power was so cheap and is so cheap, or it was so cheap at least in Norway. So it's been a huge effort to change people's behaviours into buying electrical cars. And it's been massively successful. So I believe Norway with 5 million people, where the country buying most... not per capita, but the country buying most Teslas for a while, right? So subsidies.

SPEAKER_00: 15:59

It was like nine out of 10 new cars were for a while and still are. So that brings it to a question. Like if you could change one thing overnight, there's usually a question I ask a bit at the end, but I'm curious now. You have a magic wand. What would you use it for if you could change one thing overnight? In the food and agriculture regeneration or in general, would you take all subsidies away? Would you create that level playing field? What would you do? Or something completely different?

SPEAKER_01: 16:21

Your question came up as a result of us talking about subsidies, right? And I think that's a natural place to put that question. And I think if you can do something across the board, that will be it. So there's a number of companies that are working with virtual fencing at the moment. So no fence being one of them. And I think we will all need some time to succeed and to scale and all these things, right? But what can accelerate it the most? Yes, of course, the funding of us and getting more players into the field. Sure. But getting funding for farmers to drive that type of behavior and let virtual fencing be an enabler for managed grazing and regenerative farming. I think that is the largest thing you could do. So definitely the magic wand would be used at subsidies for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 17:55

And would it be to subsidize, let's say like the Norwegian car example, the good behavior or the better behavior, or would you be actually more interested if you had anyway magic power to take away all the subsidies in the food and agriculture system that predominantly are subsidizing the CAFOs, the factory farms, plowing, et cetera, et cetera. What would you target? If you had magic power anyway, what would you target?

SPEAKER_01: 18:18

I didn't put one word down, Kun, because we were cheating with you now. You said a couple of questions up front, right? So that magic wand, I put one word in there. I put holistic. I think it's really necessary to think about these things in a holistic way. If you do just one thing, it can be a good thing, but it ends up wrong anyway, doesn't it? So yeah, biodiversity is a good word in the terms of regenerative, isn't it? and I think it's a good principle in general too so I would probably try to think about it holistically try to reduce and also you've got to give people a chance to change their ways right be able to do that overnight and you need to understand yeah you know Roger's adoptions curve right it says the early innovators and so forth and the new majority and so on and you need to allow some time to take place and not to run in but trying to think holistically and it's funny isn't it when it's almost like if you buy a new car of a new brand and you don't even noticed that brand before but when you bought it you see those cars all over the place right

SPEAKER_00: 19:15

and there's colors

SPEAKER_01: 19:16

yeah yeah and it's a bit the same thing here we just started to take interest in these things so my office here in norway is in uh in startup environment and there's another company in this environment called desert control they're coming up with a solution for nano clay which basically does the same thing as the nile used to do over the desert in egypt it induces clay into sand and you can turn sand into fertile soil within weeks It's absolutely mind-blowing what they do. And I think you need a whole aspect of the life cycle. So you can't do just virtual fencing. I think that solves it all. You need to look at the way pesticides are used and you can't take it all away, right? You can start by maybe trying to administer it in a better way so you don't blow everything down with pesticides and so forth. So I think trying to think holistically is the right way to do it. And then that calls for collaboration. So helping each other, I think, is an extremely important thing here. Not trying just to do your own thing, but have some big ears and a big heart and try to be part of a movement that takes us in the right direction and be open to that. There are more roles to roam than one, right?

SPEAKER_00: 20:26

And what do you see for NoFence in your role as well? Like the next, let's say five years. I mean, next year is always a bit tricky. I mean, nobody knows what's going to happen this year. But what do you see as the big milestones or the big things you're looking forward to work on with the team to get like these foundational blocks for regeneration to scale really after that? I think we have, we could keep saying 10 years left or eight years left or nine years left. So we have a couple of years to put the foundation blocks in place and then the scale needs to happen. What are you looking forward to in these foundational years over the next couple of years as virtual fencing becomes more known, bigger, more players, et cetera? What are your big looking forward to basically in the next couple of years?

SPEAKER_01: 21:05

Oh, there's the continuous development of the solution and everything, of course. But I feel quite forward joining NoFence because there's a team that's been working on this for 10 years, more than 10 years. So at the moment, we actually have more than 150 million hours of operation on animals that proves that this works. So for us, it's really to be able to scale our production in a good way.

SPEAKER_00: 21:32

Of the devices, basically. Of the

SPEAKER_01: 21:34

devices, yes. Because once that is done, we see that Farmers are so happy when they get this solution, both with regard to their profitability, but also with regard to, what should I say? I was almost going to say

SPEAKER_00: 21:49

peace of mind. It's interesting to see. Profitability helps with peace of mind, for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 21:55

That's true, too. But that wasn't what I was referring to.

SPEAKER_00: 21:58

You know where your animals are. You know where they are. You know if they're in danger. You know if there are predators around. I mean, there's a lot more from your phone than if you have to go out there to see and look yeah and the

SPEAKER_01: 22:12

combination of the two is so strong this is also one of my things that I think is important you know when something new comes up it doesn't mean you throw all the old stuff overboard you maybe replace some of it with the new stuff but you keep a lot of what you know is working for you and I think that is the same way here you start using this technology you're still going to do a lot of the stuff you did before but there's some you won't have to and there's some things you can do better and it has a wide range like I said the profitability is one thing seeing clients and visiting farmers and hearing them so there was one farmer we visited in the UK so he was 50 he used to run his own farm and then he started farming professionally for a landowner who wanted it it was prerequisite regenerative that's the way to do it he went through a journey himself and then he started to sort of see hmm The cost of goods and the stuff. So the traders coming into the farm, that sort of decreased and his profits were up and sort of just saw the whole thing unfold. And he had to sort of pinch his own arm and say like, I'm 50 years old. It took me this long to sort of come into this. And he knew he wouldn't have done it himself, right? He did it because he was farming for someone, for the owner, right?

SPEAKER_00: 23:23

Yeah. You need, especially in this period, you need, it's still relatively early, even though you have 150 million, I just want to say 150 plus another six. of hours of grazing which is insane to think about just the amount of data what we can see there is mind-boggling but still we're relatively early on in the minds of many farmers so it's you need the ones that are maybe slightly less motivated by short-term profit that have a bit more space because of other jobs or other successful companies or things just to take the plunge and keep creating those hours and keep pushing the technology and the boundaries and keep you pushing as well to develop further because we're still in that early adopter curve very early

SPEAKER_01: 24:01

Yeah, yeah, we are. At the same time, I think also that if you look at the demographics, this is the same all over the world. The age of the farmer is increasing, so they're getting older and older. And getting the new generation to take over is a common challenge we all have.

SPEAKER_00: 24:17

Yeah, I think Gabe Brown used to ask, I actually still ask this in rooms, like saying, okay, how many here feel like they're successful? Or how many farmers here in the room see their younger generation taking over? And there are very few hands that go up when he asks those questions. and it's very sad because we need those hands we need the brains we need the energy we do

SPEAKER_01: 24:36

we do at the same time also keen windsurfers so I went to the beach actually I started wing foiling now so I went to the beach the other day and then there's one of my work colleagues that comes in and he has a friend of him from Sweden young people they're like a third my age and I told him about my new job and this guy from Sweden he was a computer programmer and he was all read up on regenerative and the whole thing and he knew all about it. So I think there is a growing conscience around these things in the younger generation. So if they can connect those dots, I truly believe that virtual fencing is an enabler, not only for managed grazing, but also for helping the young generation see that technology can play a part in making this better and also be cooler. I think that is also, there's an element of that, right? They've grown up They're digital natives. They've grown up that way and it wouldn't make sense for them to do it any other way.

SPEAKER_00: 25:36

So hopefully they're selling online anyway. They're using technology to do many other things of their farm or their operations. So why not the management as well? Exactly, exactly. So if you have done the, let's say you've got the manufacturing under control and the scale up of that, what are other big pieces you're excited about?

SPEAKER_01: 25:54

I'm extremely excited to see research developing in this space. And I'm very humble also for the situation we're sort of standing up against because there's so many things we need to understand better, right? And sometimes I have to admit, I am getting confused. I'm getting uncertain. I'm getting bewildered because there's so many things you need to take into consideration. And then I think what helps me is again, sort of going a bit back to nature and looking at the way nature designed these things. If you sort of try to think that that for a start is okay, then you get something to run with. The methane emissions from livestock, for instance, one thing which is lifted up now that it's more potent and more dangerous so if you can sequester carbon dioxide well you release a lot of methane and then you're back to square one well are you and then if you look at the cycle of the ruminant and that it is releasing methane well that has a cycle it becomes carbon dioxide and that carbon dioxide is then absorbed again by the photosynthesis and it sort of goes around so it's part of the circle so taking parts of that circle out is I read about an article about some research going on on trying to change the DNA so that the ruminant won't create and build as much methane as it currently does.

SPEAKER_00: 27:14

It doesn't sound like a very holistic approach.

SPEAKER_01: 27:16

It scares me really. And what it scared me even more was that the word that was used for that DNA experiment was to vaccinate the cow against methane emissions. Again, it's a little bit like if we go back to the first principle of training a muscle, right? So when you're training it, it's painful. So if you stop doing that, you kind of have to take the holistic approach, I believe. And

SPEAKER_00: 27:39

it's interesting. We had a discussion with Russ Gonser of Standard Soil and Blue Nest Beef. And he's Excel, knows a lot of things about methane, a lot of things about carbon, a lot of things about oil and fossils and all of that. And did a very interesting, I think it was, no, it wasn't a TEDx talk. It was some talk on YouTube. I will link it below. And I also linked the interview because we did a deep dive on methane as well. And there it was interesting. First of all, the research is very, on the ruminant part is very shaky. It's very early in much of that. It's probably like the methane, like how do you even measure it is very interesting, of course, because it's not that we measure it on cows that are outside. Yeah, we use, I mean, it's interesting because everybody uses farting, but actually they're burping. And we see now that actually the diet of cows or ruminants has a huge effect on the quantity of methane. So it might even be an effect, like a lot of methane might be an effect of a very bad diet or not a holistic diet, let's say. So that's one thing too. And you see people now coming up with LG pills, et cetera. Of course, we try to come up with something to sell and supplement, but probably the research shows that if you have a very healthy pasture, the methane is a lot lower. And then there's the very easy argument, but we still have to measure it because it's very difficult to do that because how do you capture that in the pasture that most of the methane is actually eaten immediately when the cow burps or the woman burps by bacteria that live in a healthy pasture. So it's a circle that it's very close because they literally burp while they're eating and so it's very interesting that it gets i'm a bit scared with now the attention for methane is is basically becomes like a hammer looking for a nail everywhere yeah and it might misses the point not to say that methane isn't isn't very dangerous because you see that especially from big oil and gas operations like the methane leaks are incredibly potent and if we can stop that very interesting but let's not throw out the baby like the ruminant with the bath water because it's very very true Because we don't know a lot about it. We know that in K4 operations, methane is a huge issue, but let's understand why there and not necessarily in a field. And so, but people get very touchy and feely about it immediately. Like it's a very sensitive thing. Like it's another thing to reduce livestock and it doesn't talk about management. It doesn't talk about pasture. It doesn't talk about why methane actually comes. Is there a role for methane? Maybe there is a stressor for the ruminant. Maybe it's not, maybe it has to do with bad diet. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. And we don't know all of these things yet. so it's it's tricky it's interesting but it's tricky too and i get a bit nervous when i see it like oh this is going to be another another nail for the hammer that was already looking for reducing livestock anyway and they just found another thing to do it

SPEAKER_01: 30:14

yeah yeah and that's why when you say what's the next thing i'm excited for that is research and we actually try to do that ourselves we fund and we work together with the universities around the world and also all the markets we're entering into to get research in different areas on these things because that knowledge is something we need and we don't have all the answers at the moment I think this is also important and this is also maybe me as you say having a lot of experience as we put it having lived for a while I've sort of seen the climate of debate change quite substantially over the last maybe decade or so maybe half the last half decade and I think it's important to listen to people that have very different opinions than you and also listen to what can be bad about the methane and what where is it and so forth, and understand it properly. Because it's only if you're willing to listen to each other and talk about it, that's when we learn. If we just sort of say what we mean and then the others are wrong, we don't go anywhere. So the research here, I think, is incredibly important that we do get independent research that goes in and checks these things out. And that scares me a little bit because there are lobbies in this world that work for different interests. So trying to get that peer-reviewed research in... I think is incredibly important.

SPEAKER_00: 32:06

Yeah, no, I saw a very interesting, like YouTube fed me an interesting commercial yesterday of Beyond Meat. And it was very well done. Like it was very interesting and very well about peas and things like that. And I'm not saying Beyond is a huge issue, but it is, yeah, it's a very narrow focus on the solution and on solutions in general. And it's interesting that they, I mean, they definitely hired a very good marketing agency because the video was amazing. But yeah, we don't have that yet for, let's say, the regenerative grazing or managed grazing ones it's uh it's we're up against quite a strong lobby on both sides i think the kefo industry is extremely strong and extremely well connected obviously yep but also i see the vegan side is starting to lobby as well with very interesting with very interesting funding which is tricky because we're fighting the same fight i have a feeling but it's i always have the feeling it's a bit like the fossil fuel industries that that really made it very like they spread so much doubt that they just delayed they just they the strategy of delay, delay, delay, delay, delay. And as long as we are discussing with the vegans, of course, there's another day of delay, which means simply delay. And that's like, we really have to get our act together. And this is such an important, I wouldn't say fight, but such an important transition and movement we have to go through and regeneration in general. And it has to, there's a nice article I will put below as well of David Bronner, the founder of, or not the founder, the current CEO of Dr. Bronner's. And he wrote like, they are investing quite a bit in different spaces of the regeneration space and even though they are I think a really vegan company they are investing in very interesting things when it comes to livestock and he wrote a full blog post why they're doing that and it's called something like regenerations unite or something because it's a very strong piece on like this is a fight we need to do together and it's a discussion we need to have together and we cannot have discussions among each other because it would just take our eyes off the target and take our and just delay it just makes I wouldn't say the other side because that doesn't sound holistic but it it gets us another day away from regeneration which is simply we cannot afford that we cannot afford to keep discussing about methane in this way or that way we have to do the research obviously but we also have to go to work because there's so much land to be regenerated and so much ocean as well

SPEAKER_01: 34:19

yeah

SPEAKER_00: 34:20

sorry it was a bit of a rant

SPEAKER_01: 34:22

yeah no that's uh i follow you i think the important thing though is to actually be willing again to listen and embrace them hey isn't it good then that some people want to be vegan and that they're exploring that way absolutely i think I think it's a great thing. So there should be room for more ways to do things, I believe. And we're trying to do management gatherings and workshops in Åfens together with clients. And we had one, something called Nedreskinnes Gård, which is a farm in Norway that had been running regeneratively for quite some time now. And they do both livestock and they do crops. And their weight had increased the protein content by running regeneratively massively. So it shows that you can have a really good protein source in from wheat. And another story we had back from one of our clients who had been running Regently for a while and comes back and gets feedback from Norwegian food authorities that his cow meat had higher omega-3 content than salmon. So if you're starting to do these things right, I think there's so much potential on both sides that we can get a more diverse option for people to choose what they want. want to do. And some people will choose for other reasons that they want to do a vegan diet. No matter if it's done holistically or not on the livestock side, they will still choose the vegan and please let them do so. I think there should be room for both. And I think we can learn from each other, right? One of the farmers we visited, they had cover crops with 19% protein in them. I mean, that's just fantastic. We had an ox in one of the... The product manager, actually, for no offense, runs a little farm and they had a bull there. That bull 18 months of age, gained one kilo per day of meat weight in summer from just eating grass, like plain walking out in the field eating grass, converting that into protein at such a rate. It's just stunning and amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 36:19

So you're saying there's so much to discover there on the weed side, on the protein side, on the cover crop side. I mean, there's a whole world of potential that we only, I mean, I always say, of course, it's a pun intended, but scratching the surface.

SPEAKER_01: 36:32

Yeah. You got me on that one.

SPEAKER_00: 36:37

There's so many we can make, but it's true. But it's also difficult in a sector that is run, like many farmers are 50, 60 plus. They logically are not going to take a lot of risks. And then we're coming in and saying, oh, everything is possible. We're only scratching the servers and this and this is possible, will be possible in a couple of years. And of course, the skepticism you can see already in their face going, yeah, there's another one coming with these amazing stories and the rainbows and the pot of gold and et cetera, et cetera, and the protein content. and the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so how do we don't lose the majority of the farmers, even if they want to in that transition, that is going to be painful stuff is going to go wrong. Like colors full of cows at some point, electricity goes off. I mean, things like cell reception doesn't go well. Of course, weather doesn't play with us. Like, how do we not lose them in that transition process? Because that's, I think like if you lose them once, then of course they're not going to take a risk again because that's their livelihood, obviously.

SPEAKER_01: 37:33

I I think you're underestimating the curiosity of people. I think people are curious. And this has been driving humanity ever since the early morning, right, of times. And when there are better ways of doing things that comes across, we're also competitive. So, yeah, it's almost to me, almost a Darwinistic aspect of the whole thing, I believe. We're starting to discover that we messed up also in this area a bit, and there's fantastic potential to make that right again. And here we have an area where we're super capable of doing it, cleaning up the oceans of microplastic. That's a tough task. That's a tough task. We've already done so much on that side that's irreversible. But when it comes to regenerative, it lies in the word, right? It is absolutely possible. And I'm firmly in people's ability to change. Yeah, I know the Kubler-Ross curve and that in the beginning there's resistance, right? And denial even. And then there's resistance. And then you're starting to look at the options and then you're getting committed. And I think this is the curve that people will go through and they will see But you have to make it available to them and you have to sort of show the possibilities. And I believe a lot more in the carrot than the stick. But I also believe that in this situation, we actually do have both the carrot and the stick. The stick is upon us and it's showing in so many ways. I mean, you asked it in the beginning, what's the sort of single little thing that makes people have a popping moment, like the whale that was shored, right? And this picture that comes back to me, and I think it is who's grabbing a piece of soil that's been not run regeneratively, but been run like with heavy tilling and heavy, what do you call it? Fertilizing over a long time. And it's just like sand, right? It's just, there's no structure. There's no life in that earth, that soil at all. And we just start like doping. If you are not happy with your performance and you do testosterone, you know, you do enough of that and your own body won't produce it anymore because it just relies on what you're giving it. And then you only have that single ingredient and that goes back to the holistic piece you need the whole whole biodiversity in the soil I think maybe that is something we should try to have a say get some smart communication people to really run on that one because people see and understand that immediately when it's like sand and dust it blows away right

SPEAKER_00: 40:01

no no when you get people on a farm when you get people on farms and have them I mean I remember a groundswell two years ago two and a half years ago like the soil tests are always funny infiltration tests, like different pieces of soil, some well-managed, some well-grazed, some not, and then having X amount of water on top and see what comes out. And if it's very clear, everybody understands what is better or not, what holds more water, et cetera, et cetera. So those are floating tests, like putting a piece of soil in a cup of water and see if it completely falls apart immediately or holds structure well. I mean, there's a very nice, simple test everybody can do. We did an interview with Abby Rose of Sector Manager of Soil Mentor that really teaches farmers or shows farmers with a very simple app how to do that themselves without any complicated labs etc and so there's a lot we can do there and to see it and touch it and feel it i think you cannot unsee it anymore like once you've seen the potential of non-plowing or continuous cover etc you're going to see plowed fields just like the car you're going to see plowed fields everywhere and see like okay there's still a lot to do but then let's switch gears a bit to the financial side of things so how

SPEAKER_01: 41:05

funny you want to say that because i'm going to mention that they follow the money yeah look at the money going into this at the moment it's capital side of things has really understood that this is a moment that's happening and the whole sustainability piece of investment is

SPEAKER_00: 41:20

exploding

SPEAKER_01: 41:20

almost yeah

SPEAKER_00: 41:22

yeah with all the issues with that and we have to track and trade and keep people accountable because people put impact now on everything have you seen that i mean it's been only a few months but in conversations with investors as you are starting to prepare for fundraising obviously this is not investment advice i want to be very clear but have you seen like of course there's interest from investors i can imagine they knock on doors, etc. But is there a full understanding yet? Like, do they come really, I wouldn't say prepared, but understanding of the potential, but also the issues and the challenges? Or is there a lot of education you see yourself and others of the team doing still on this virtual fencing? Because it is technology, there is scale, but it's also agriculture and food, which scales always less fast than we hope so. Do you see there as a huge role for you? Or are you surprised about, let's say, the knowledge of the investors that have been knocking on your door?

SPEAKER_01: 42:11

I think

SPEAKER_00: 42:12

there's a wide range. Very diplomatically. Very nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:16

Yeah. There's a wide range. Some surprises. I mean, so far, I haven't met with a lot yet. We have a lot of incoming traffic and, you know, we're 30 people. We're busy as hell. So we really need to prioritize what do we do and what do we not do. So we said no to a lot of meetings as such, but we had a few and probably have more now going into 2022. As you say, as we go to do some fundraising and I think that there's a mutual need to understand more and in my head there's a few things we already know and we can kind of take for granted and we can work along the lines of but then you start drilling down to finding the right KPIs and so forth and where do you actually say that these are hard metrics that we follow then it becomes a bit more complicated and I think that's an educational role for both the capital side and also for the industry side so And knowledge is varying for sure. I think, as you said, there is a bit of repainting going on also. So you can kind of, at least I feel that you can kind of easily tell if there's a personal, if there's a corporate, or is this just a PowerPoint type of motivation behind? Because it shows in the conversations. So... Getting the people that are willing also to take a bit of a stand, I think, is important. This is something we're going to look for. We're going to be a huge fan of Hamilton. I don't know if you heard the musical, but there's a line that says, if you stand for nothing, what do you fall for? And it sort of goes around the line of, well, sometimes in life, you have to make some bets, right? I left a safe job and an incredible crew at my old company that I'm still missing. And I'm still sometimes when good vibes come up about an offense, I'm sometimes mixing the name of my old company and this company because because they're sort of the good feelings that they're drawers right next to each other right so getting this to to work in a way where you sort of say hey do we believe this is right and then be willing to take a leap into it with a number of unknowns that is also what in particular there's a reason it's called venture capital isn't it right because they're going out on a venture they make some bets and they make some beliefs and they think that that is right and they try to to document as much as they can, but at some stage you need to sort of say, does it all make sense and does it seem likely? And then the real benefits are there for the people who actually dare to take that risk. before it becomes evident to everyone, because then the market is efficient and then there's not the same type of money to be earned or glory to be had. But yes, there is definitely a difference between them. The interesting thing is to see that there are a significant amount of funds that really take this seriously and have made it part of their strategy. So it's not just a path point forward. It is a desire to actually make a change. and have it as part of their investment strategy. What we look for also is a bit of that passion because we believe that on this journey, you need to have more than the money and some skill sets. You need to have some passion and some drive and your funding partners should be that. They should be your funding partner. That's what we believe at least. We're not in a situation where we think we know best ourselves. So we think that having that partnership and of course we will be the executing arm of that partnership but having it as a partnership, we think is incredibly important.

SPEAKER_00: 45:48

And what if we switch the tables, meaning you will be on the other side, maybe not talking to no friends, but you will have a considerable fund to invest, let's say a billion dollars or a billion euros or a billion Norwegian crowns. Now, probably that's not the same, but like a lot of money to invest and could be very long-term investments, but definitely investments. What would you focus on? And I'm not interested in the exact dollar amounts, but I'm interested, what would you prioritize as if you would switch seats with an investor and you had a considerable fund to put to work.

SPEAKER_01: 46:19

I think the number one thing is that you do exactly the same thing as everyone else. You look for a product market fit, you look for the people in that organization and you look for their ability to scale and you look for the roadblocks down the road as such. and then um i don't want to be the boring answer is they're getting a new diversify and do the whole thing right so that's the boring answer that's probably what you should do right but i would probably try to look for areas where you can really make substantial changes to something that hasn't been changed for a long time see if there's opportunities there I know it sounds a bit colorful where I come from, but I still believe that is right, though. I don't think it disqualifies that point of view. If you can really disrupt the way things have been done for a long time with that investment, that is interesting. Yes, there's a higher risk to it, but in order to do so, it needs to provide some simple solutions that are scalable and see how you could really scale that.

SPEAKER_00: 47:23

So what kind of sectors come up? What kind of pieces of... It could be anything. Like literally anything. What comes to mind, of course, without doing this super deep research, but what other sectors beyond, let's say, virtual fencing, are you potentially excited about? Is it around plastics? Is it around other things, nutrient density? What other sectors would you, or what other pieces of the food and agriculture sector, obviously, as well, would you spend time on investigating?

SPEAKER_01: 47:49

I think I mentioned that one before. Right. Taking, it's almost like it's a parallel to re-density farming, right? And managed grazing. It's like you're repeating one of nature's old principles and desertification and the ability to do something about that. And actually, to mention that specifically, though, it's using oil and gas technology to induce clay into sand. So it's taking what we've learned and it's taking one of the oldest principles that the Nile did itself. into sauce holes. That would definitely be one area that really has caught my mind. I'm interested to see what this, the ocean cleanup, what they're able to do and how that could be taken further. I just love the story that, yeah, it's a country fellow of you, isn't it? It's a Dutch gentleman.

SPEAKER_00: 48:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've met him once actually, Bojan Slad. I don't think he remembers me, but I had a coffee with him when he was probably 16, 17 once.

SPEAKER_01: 48:45

Right, yeah. No, but because if you take the desert and you take the oceans Those are the two biggest areas next to soil, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00: 48:54

That we haven't been focusing on a lot.

SPEAKER_01: 48:56

Yeah, because when sand is sand, then you can't do anything about it. It's kind of a lost cause, right? But if you can start doing something like that at scale, that is interesting. And then the same thing with the ocean cleanup. If you can do something on the ocean cleanup side at scale, that is interesting. I've got faith in that you will be able to stop these three main rivers that are just... feeding plastic into the ocean. And you can stop it at the production sites and so forth. You've got people's consciousness around it. So I've got belief in that you can stop those things. It's just going to take a bit of time. But to clean up what we already messed up, that is an area which, if you can really start doing something about that, that is super interesting. So probably hard. Well,

SPEAKER_00: 49:41

who cares?

SPEAKER_01: 49:43

Yeah, if you can do the hard things, then there's a big reward at the end of the journey.

SPEAKER_00: 49:47

I want to thank you, Amelie Conch, of your time. You're extremely busy and it's going to be an extremely busy year. So I want to thank you so much for your openness and for your time today to share your story and what excites you about the opportunity of regeneration, but virtual fencing specifically.

SPEAKER_01: 50:03

Thanks a lot, Clint.

SPEAKER_00: 50:05

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