156 Felipe Pasini – Trees bring water so when in doubt plant more trees and complexify

Felipe Pasini, the co-founder of Life in Syntropy, joins us to discuss the astounding capabilities of systemic tree planting coupled with many other agroforestry systems and the role of syntropic agroforestry in gaining back the forests we once had. 
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We all say very often we want to farm with respect for nature. But what does this actually mean? What does nature actually want? How do we build agriculture systems at scale, where we can still harvest enough to sustain ourselves in a truly sustainable system? What does it take to scale syntropic agroforestry?

More about this episode on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/felipe-pasini.

Find our video course on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/course.

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We all say very often we want to farm with respect for nature. But what does this actually mean? What does nature actually want? How do we build agriculture systems at scale, where we can still harvest enough to sustain ourselves in a truly sustainable system? What does it take to scale syntropic agroforestry?

For feedback, ideas, suggestions please contact us through Twitter @KoenvanSeijen, or get in touch through the website www.investinginregenerativeagriculture.com. 

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The above references an opinion and is for information and educational purposes only. It is not intended to be investment advice. Seek a duly licensed professional for investment advice.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

We all say very often we want to farm with respect for nature, but what does this actually mean? What does nature actually want and how do we build agriculture systems at scale where we can still harvest enough to sustain ourselves, a truly sustainable system? This episode looks at why trees are so important in these systems and how we should plant them in the most productive way. And we tackle the age-old myth of competition between trees among each other, but also between trees and other plants. More trees means more life, means more water, means more everything. Plus, what is needed to grow the syntropic agroforestry system. It has been proven at relatively limited scale and seems to be ready for prime time. So let's unpack what is needed to bring it to the next stratification level. Sorry, pun intended. Enjoy! Intro Welcome to another episode of investing in regenerative agriculture. In March last year, we launched our membership community to make it easy for fans to support our work. And so many of you have joined as a member. We've launched different types of benefits, exclusive content, Q&A webinars with former guests, Ask Me Anything sessions, plus so much more to come in the future. For more information on the different tiers, benefits, and how to become a member, check gumroad.com slash investingreach an egg or find the link below. Thank you. So welcome to another episode of the podcast today with the co-founder of Life in Syntropy, Filipe Passini. Welcome Filipe. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. And to start with a personal question that I, of course, always like to ask and we always start with, how did you end up in soil and how did you end up building these very, very complex agroforestry systems?

SPEAKER_00: 2:13

Well, I mean, one question. The first one is, I guess, there is nothing more important to do. We still haven't figured it out since we began farming on this planet. We still haven't got it. We still haven't figured it out to have a dominant way of treating our soils and feeding whole civilizations with agriculture in a really sustainable way, not in how the concept is being used now, but really in a way that can sustain civilizations for And most of would be even nicer to creating resources as it goes. And I ended up doing this also because I was fortunate enough to come across a Swiss guy that came to Brazil more than 40 years ago named Ernest Goetsch. And he, I was already very involved into permaculture, organic farming, this kind of things.

SPEAKER_03: 3:09

How did you get into that? Like, did you grow up on a farm? How did you end

SPEAKER_00: 3:13

it up? I mean, my family owns a farm and since my grandfather, always my favorite place, up to now is my favorite place, but not the activity itself. I mean, we had cows and some farming things and some cultures, but more like cash crops that come and go. And I never felt like a calling. I mean, I enjoyed being there, but not driven by the activity itself.

SPEAKER_02: 3:39

So you left?

SPEAKER_00: 3:40

Coming and going. I mean, all my life was spending some time I mean, leaving some periods on the farm and then leaving. It's been like this for a long time. But after meeting Ernest, it changed a lot because it really gave a purpose, a very strong purpose, because he worked with this kind of agroforestry, but it's not a simple agroforestry. It's a very complex agroforestry that includes succession, stratification, and very nice philosophical concepts behind it as well. So With that, I just felt, okay, I'm also a journalist. I mean, my graduation is communication. So when I met him, I said, oh my God, I mean, everybody should know this because I was so impressed. It was so new, although it made a lot of sense. And I mean, it was not new, but it was not so widespread and it should be.

SPEAKER_03: 4:35

Do you remember, because this is, I'm guessing like 16, 20 years ago, we didn't use the internet at all. as much as now yet, like these stories weren't so much out there. How did you stumble upon this? As it wasn't that you're, I mean, you were studying, being very interested in permaculture, but then it's still quite a big leap to syntropic agroforestry or syntropic agriculture. Like, do you remember the first time you stumbled upon it and then did you act and travel to a farm? Like what was the...

SPEAKER_00: 5:04

Yeah, no, I do remember. I was so very, yeah, lucky. I had been for a while in a place in Brazil that is very nice, was a run by an architect that is called, I don't know the translation for English, like naked architect. This guy that's called Johan van Lengen that runs, I mean, he's Dutch, actually. Sounds very Dutch. Yes. And he run a place in Brazil, very nice, where he did all these experiments with architecture and always using raw materials. I mean, very related to permaculture. But, I mean, really focused on architecture.

SPEAKER_03: 5:40

And you were there for...

SPEAKER_00: 5:41

As a journalist. I mean, I was there shooting a small documentary with a group who I worked with in that time. And so we became friends. I mean, the son of Johan, very nice guy, also an architect. So we became friends. And the place is like an oasis, a very nice place. They host different courses, workshops as well. And, I mean, a few months after I was there, they had this workshop with Ernest Goethe. The first time he would be there and one of the first time he would teach a workshop in my region it's just two hours away from from our farm so yeah so I went there and I I mean it blew my mind I mean everything that he suggested to plant and people students suggesting to plant he said okay but we can't plant just that because this place wants to be a forest so we can't prevent ourselves from working like a forest otherwise it wouldn't be like respecting what this place wants to be. It doesn't matter if we want just to grow cash crops or vegetables or organically, it doesn't matter if we just want to do it organically. If we don't add the trees and succession will be preventing this place to look like it wants to be. It doesn't mean that agriculture shouldn't be included, quite the opposite. It's there. I mean, there are crops that we can include in every

SPEAKER_03: 7:02

stage of succession, but... There are pieces we can harvest and that sort of seems the underlying big question, what does a place want to be?

SPEAKER_00: 7:10

Yes. And

SPEAKER_03: 7:11

what does nature want? I mean, I've heard you say that multiple times, not necessarily in this interview, we'll hear it a few more times, but what does nature want and what does a place want to be? How do we know what a place wants to be?

SPEAKER_00: 7:21

Yeah, that is something that is always, it's really underlining, it's the background of everything that we normally talk about because we hear a lot in sustainable farming and in re-greening initiatives, oh, we need to respect nature, but we don't have a clue what nature wants to be. We have a very vague idea what it wants to be. And in order to answer this question, we go to science, we go to, I mean, thanks God, I mean, archaeologists, they are finding so many cool stuff for the past decades. So after the planet warmed up since the last glaciation, I mean, 12,000 years ago, when it started to warm up, leaving the last ice age, the planet became a forest. So we had this window between 10 10,000 years when it was warming up until 8,000, 6,500, until the pasture economy and agriculture started to dominate and to change ecosystems in a very drastic way. So, I mean, our window is like this 4,000 years when the planet really expressed itself before we started to intervene too much.

SPEAKER_03: 8:35

So you're saying... most of the planet or all of the planet wants to be, wants to go, not back, but wants to sort of go forward to become a forest again. But when you say forest, what should we imagine as a forest? Because I think we also have a very distorted image as a forest. Maybe some national parks we know, we quote unquote, I'm doing quotes here, think that is a forest. When you say the planet wants to be or was a forest, what do you, is it a very dense, is it very... Yes, good question, good question. What should we imagine as a forest?

SPEAKER_00: 9:06

Of course, when I say forest is a generalization because there are so many physiognomies and ways that vegetation behaves. But I say places with lots of trees. Dancer, less dense, but trees were really part of everywhere. And Ernest used to say some stuff that we suspect a little. Because, for example, in Brazil, when he said to this place, I was mentioning when I first met him, this place wants to be a forest, so we have to work with trees we can't prevent ourselves from working with trees I mean it's quite obvious we are in an Atlantic rainforest so I mean you look around where we don't touch if you don't touch in two years a forest will come eventually so it was very obvious it's not such a stretch

SPEAKER_03: 9:53

yes

SPEAKER_00: 9:53

the place

SPEAKER_03: 9:54

where we're now it's a bit different

SPEAKER_00: 9:55

yes that is interesting because Brazil has a young colonization story so with this dominant model of agriculture just being there for some hundreds of years whereas here in Europe for us has been a very interesting experience because even places like this some people don't believe it was a closed forest but when we look back I mean in studies to rebuild reconstructing using like fossils of pollen yes it was a forest

SPEAKER_03: 10:24

just as a background we're in southern Italy at the moment in Puglia where there aren't a lot of forests left especially not the oak forest that presumably were here or the mixed forest it's a lot of olive trees there are a lot of issues around it we get into that but you're saying that because it's been such a long time probably before the Romans and even before that we can see it we can do architecture research or archaeology research to see what was here before but because it's such a long time ago it's difficult for people to imagine what the landscape could look like or what it used to look like and maybe wants to look like

SPEAKER_00: 10:56

perfect yes it's very hard it's very hard to especially places that are very proud of their traditions I mean it's not in the memory anymore for example here it's been, I mean, 8,000 years when pastures, livestock started to come to the zone. The Iberian Peninsula was 7,500 years ago. And in that time, the whole Sahara, the north of Africa, was a very busy place and lots of people living there, an economy that was based on livestock. And cool, very nice recent studies show that we tend to believe that, for example, the Sahara was just like a cosmological event the procession that turned that place into a desert. But now there are new studies that, oh, maybe like man-made activities play the role because they are starting to question that this cosmological event alone wouldn't change this vast area, very diverse area. And also some pollen findings show that as well, that it was a place that before was a lot of trees and pollens of trees and really a forest, Mediterranean forest, oats, and names in English I wouldn't know, but it comes after. And then it started to have more species that men or cattle managed. And later, I mean, they found the first lentils, for example, in Morocco, the first cultivated lentils there 8,000 years ago. So we started to change the environment quite a bit. And when we keep researching that, I mean, you go to the... Here is the same, I mean, Middle East, the most studied place absolutely and i recommend reading the book of david montgomery soil the erosion of civilization he tells many wonderful stories about these places and from the soil's perspective erosion and the role that this first agricultural civilizations played and uh yeah so it's been everywhere it's been like this yeah we had him

SPEAKER_03: 13:00

on the podcast there's a new book coming out he's been saying it for years but with his wife on the nutrient density of food and the connection to soil. They've been researching it for a long time, but now it seems to be really coming. So we're going to have him back soon, I hope. David, if you're

SPEAKER_00: 13:12

listening, come back. We are big fans. I mean, the hidden half of soil is fantastic and we've been enjoying to see his trajectory.

SPEAKER_03: 13:21

It's fascinating. Very cool. So we have established, I mean, it's interesting because the whole movement of let's make the Sahara green again, probably that word again is very, very important here in the sense that many, many places had way more trees and way more in general I mean if you connect the two probably the two are very deeply connected and yet you're saying it needs or it's there is a role for agriculture there's a role for harvesting things and for eating from it it's not just let's put a big fence around it and it grows back in two years maybe some places it does like in Brazil but many places it doesn't like it becomes less of what it could be much more so what's our role as humans in managing a system that's very degraded let's put the baseline there most places are severely degraded and way more than we expect and maybe we cannot even imagine what it could be and then what is our role as humans as the keystone species in many cases to bring back that abundance or kickstart it or how do we then interact with that or how do

SPEAKER_00: 14:18

we yeah that's a tough

SPEAKER_03: 14:20

question where do we start let's say what's the first step

SPEAKER_00: 14:23

I mean we after we did the

SPEAKER_03: 14:25

archaeology research okay we have an idea of what could grow here even though all the people around us will say you're crazy that could never grow here and we know it did so why doesn't it now Okay, so we know a species map of options, like a menu. And then where do we start?

SPEAKER_00: 14:41

Yeah, I mean, first of all, we strongly believe that forests bring moisture to the continents. I mean, this is something that, for example, science has been proving this with the biotic pump theory, you know, the flying rivers. And I mean, it's a pump. I mean, forests, the photosynthesis is a pump. So let's really

SPEAKER_03: 15:00

specify that trees bring water, not the other way around.

SPEAKER_00: 15:52

We do believe in that. And it's something that Ernest I always say it's good to say that we tend to believe that where there is water, there is life. But he normally says it's the opposite. Where there is life, there is water. So life attracts water because photosynthesis is endothermal, so it cools down the place and changes the density of water vapor. So when we see a forest like the Amazon, of course, we're talking about the tropics.

SPEAKER_03: 16:17

But even in Spain, I think it's Milan, Milan, one of the people that Judith interviewed, like why is a big chunk of Spain desert certifying because a lot of vegetation has been removed and the normal summer rains that were there every day at 4 or 5, I don't remember the exact hour, are no longer there. So the water doesn't come anymore, goes somewhere else, the Mediterranean doesn't feed these ecosystems anymore, but could do it again.

SPEAKER_00: 16:39

Yeah, for example, there's also nice studies in why Europe in general, or Germany, is starting to dry out, to have less rain, is because the forests of Siberia are being taken down. So it's kind of disrupting the flow. And we have examples, like older examples for that in the Tibetan plateau. It's the same. I mean, always very nice studies that they found. I mean, it was a forest before. I mean, almost a forest. And like 4,000 years ago, I don't remember, maybe that or like the first pastures started to come and so it became a Cobresia place. Now it's understood as a native that needs to be preserved because it's been the Cobreza is being replaced by annual and by annual plant, like weeds. But it's already some studies showing that when that first forest was taken down, it's already changed the climate in that region. So, I mean, it's... There are studies or at

SPEAKER_03: 17:41

least suggestions now also of taking down big pieces of the Amazon, how it's influencing not only the whole, I mean, the whole South American continent, obviously, because most of the agriculture in Argentina, Brazil and the South couldn't exist without... without the trees pumping up the water. That's their irrigation system, literally. But also on the other side of the Atlantic, in Africa, etc., it influences and up in the Northwest. I mean, the droughts we're seeing or the heavy rain events or the extremes probably are connected to loss of vegetation and thus loss of trees. In other places, but it could be 10,000 kilometers away. That's the

SPEAKER_00: 18:16

scary and interesting part. It makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. I mean, all the forests are very much connected with the circulation of air, moisture and everything else. And we know that. I mean, there's so much information about this.

SPEAKER_03: 18:28

But if it's so big, then if we bring it down to one place, you're saying, yes, with bringing back trees in one relatively small place, even a few hectares or hectares, you can influence the moisture enough to kickstart it. Or do you need to have it at a country scale or region scale to really pump that?

SPEAKER_00: 18:46

Yes, I think both. And that's why, I mean, going back to your first question, we have to start building an economy that understands that trees are part of this planet. It's part of it. Ernest... Not just a timber, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to quote Ernest again. He defends a hypothesis that our modern version of human, I mean, our Homo sapiens sapiens, we emerged in the middle of the last ice age. So we kind of got used to this dry savannah, this dry steppe, like a more savannah environment so we were more used to open spaces and after the last glaciation I mean after the weather warmed up again so the planet became a forest like humans couldn't adapt well to this environment and some humans did of course I mean they have so many wonderful examples all over the world of indigenous people that live just fine with the forest but somehow what ended up becoming the dominant civilizations we didn't adjust just well to this place. So since then, we've declared the war on forests. Because every place a civilization arrived or took place, I mean, the forests were taken down, replaced by annuals, biannuals. I mean, first, like a farming, that slash and burn, and then like an open farming with plows and tilling every year, just animals, not against animals, please. but it's been like this and what we do today is the same it's just like an update of the same thinking and so this in this sense sorry been going building a huge arch here but in this sense what we try to do is to combine farming with greening initiatives for example regeneration in a sense that regeneration what a place would like to be for example forest we need trees I mean, the planet got used. I mean, it was supposed to have stratified vegetation. I mean, it's fine to have perennials. Perennials is much less worse than having like the whole planet almost grown with annuals and biennials and grains of vegetable. Having perennials is good, but it's still, I mean, if we have layers of vegetation, we have more photosynthesis, we have more carbon sequestered, we have more woods, we have more decomposition of woods in the soil. which makes the best soil we can imagine, would make humus with like a decomposition from fungi is the best thing. So in this sense, what we try to bring to the discussion, the big discussion of regenerative practices is that we should try to include trees in almost all our designs. And it is not easy to do that because managing trees is not as easy as managing grasses. It's not easy as managing grains, et cetera, because we it takes time if we do a pruning I mean to arrange it and so that's been our I mean our group and I say because we are a big huge group doing this kind of farming and yeah that's what we're trying to face

SPEAKER_03: 22:09

now I was laughing before because just yesterday evening and I'll put the article in the show notes as well I was reading an article I think it's called thinking as trees thinking like that and it was talking about our our war against forest like we always pictured it especially in European like folklore etc as the enchanted place the scary place you go in there you get lost etc etc etc and probably it's been in like in our system for a long time and now we're going to unpack the farming part as well but do you think that are we going sort of against our nature apart from the indigenous tribes that are doing wonderfully in forest like all of us apparently are i wouldn't say scared but maybe threatened a bit by the forest so we have been for the last eight plus thousand years cutting it like is it going against our nature to plant a lot of trees do you see that there's resistance or is something we have to overcome as a species and say we are forest people or at least edge of a forest people in general like we're made for that that's our but if we've been going against it for so long is that going to be tricky as we're planting way more trees over the next decade

SPEAKER_01: 23:07

yeah that's

SPEAKER_03: 23:08

good question do we want to be that like if we ask the question what does nature want here what do we want do we want a place with many trees I think we're happier there but

SPEAKER_00: 23:15

I mean the question is do we want to continue here as a species and continue to evolve because we need a place to live and we are very demanding to We are medium to large animal species. We need lots of phosphorus. We need lots of water. We need diverse, nutritious food sources. And we can eat and we can manage lots of tree species. We can or we can't? We can. We can. The way we eat is absolutely cultural. One thing that is interesting to see, for example, there is some studies that I wouldn't know how to quote it, but talking about the diet of the Natufians, which were like the first pre-farmers, I mean, before the farming, but when the weather warmed up and all this native grains started to appear in a place in the Middle East, in the Levant, where it is Iran today, I mean, they said those guys, they had the best diet possible, not because of the grains, but because it was diverse. I mean, they ate lots of fruits, there was some game, and some grains as well. So it was a very nice moment in this sense. But There are also other studies that are showing that the way we base our diet now, only based on annuals, on grains, it's not being healthy for us either. There are some studies showing that we are kind of degrading, we are becoming weaker. If it wasn't for our medication, the way we do it, we would... And the chemicals, yeah. And the chemicals, we would be sicker. There are studies showing that 12,000 years fossils of mankind, they were healthier than us. I mean, if we put them together, they had health healthier bones, healthier teeth, and less genetic problems. So I'm not saying that it's, I mean, it's just one of the theories. They say that the diet that came with farming might have played a role in that as well. And so I think we are now smart enough. We need

SPEAKER_03: 25:13

diversity. We need to grow diversity.

SPEAKER_00: 25:15

Yeah, and to understand, I mean, there shouldn't be anything more important to do on this planet than trying to figure out how things work. I mean, how things around does work, how nature works in order to maintain a forest to evolve and the other species to evolve because that's what life does, just keeps evolving. But apparently we are the only one species that is doing the opposite thing. And we are not doing that. We are doing the opposite. We are really destroying everything that provides what we need to survive. So going back, we need water. We need phosphorus. We need complex life. We depend on complex life. life processes. We need trees. I mean, we need complex ecosystems as well. We need the composition of wood to feed ourselves. We can't be mining phosphorus from a place to add to our crops.

SPEAKER_03: 26:39

Same with nitrogen.

SPEAKER_00: 26:40

Same with nitrogen. It needs to be done by the microorganisms in that place. And what do they need? They need a soil that is covered, that is live, that is with lots of photosynthesis, with humus, with a good capacity to retain water, with some kind of insulin protected with photosynthesis, with layers of vegetation. And then we have the conditions to pump water that we need to have as an outcome, to have phosphorus and to have nitrogen, everything that our food needs to grow.

SPEAKER_03: 27:13

So let's go back to where to start. So we've done the research. We need more trees. That's the conclusion of any site visit, basically, or almost any site visit. Let's say we're here in southern Italy. It's mostly an olive tree-based system at the moment which is under a lot of stress from disease from failing crops from trees that are dying etc and you're starting to work here or in Europe as well I mean we can talk about Portugal and Spain where you are working as well what is then the first step you bring in random trees no you bring in quite a sophisticated plan of bringing a lot more life to the place basically and on the different layers etc let's unpack where you start and then how that evolves over the next couple of years basically

SPEAKER_00: 27:53

yeah I mean first of all as we said we understand what the place wants to be. It's a forest here. It is supposed to be a semi-dissidious forest. It had oaks in the past. I mean, in Portugal, I'm talking about now, talk about Portugal where we began. I mean, we worked in Mertola for two years in a place with the highest risk of desertification and just a few trees were able to survive there.

SPEAKER_03: 28:17

Hanging on there, basically,

SPEAKER_00: 28:18

cleaning on the last. Yes, hanging on there and already dying. I mean, the Quercus helix were already being attacked by some disease I mean, similar to what's going on here with olives. And one thing that is nice to understand is an approach of syntropic agroforestry that there is no prejudice against exotic, against alien species. I mean, it is just, we see the planet as a pool of genetics that we can use. I mean, there are plants adapted to every place. And if we believe that all the plants, all the living beings they do something good for the place they do not compete this is very fundamental I mean they do good so they don't compete for water they do quite the opposite no they don't compete for water I mean if they are alone they just try to survive and they struggle which is a natural place wouldn't look like this but if we have a stratified

SPEAKER_03: 29:15

vegetation stratified vegetation you're showing with your hand but nobody can see that obviously is layers layers is fundamental because

SPEAKER_00: 29:21

you have

SPEAKER_03: 29:22

to capture as much sunlight as possible you want to change the microclimate between the layers so you have to think in layers of time because of course you think over years and decades and you have to think in layers of space like literally up and down

SPEAKER_00: 29:34

yes okay one good explanation that might make sense now is and this is proposed by Ernest which is kind of a guideline one of the pillars I mean one is succession and the other one is strategic

SPEAKER_03: 29:45

succession means over time just like with people like what comes after and already thinking now yes and that not anything everything you planned at the moment is going to be in that system forever no it has a role and the role might end and yes it's being pruned and then it turns into wood

SPEAKER_00: 30:01

as fertilizer yes every consortia of plants is being has been raised by some consortia that came before and consortia is group of current

SPEAKER_03: 30:10

plants a group of current plants that

SPEAKER_00: 30:12

lives together and will nurture and protect some other group of plants that will come later and normally like a faster growing ones they protect the slower growing ones and those slower growing ones protect the very slow growing ones so if we synchronize these plants. I mean, we don't have lack of photosynthesis. We don't have uncovered soil in any moment. So, I mean, we just keep the pump working off exudates, photosynthesis, you know, like soil cover, it's protected. So the soil microorganisms don't suffer any loss in this feeding system.

SPEAKER_03: 30:46

Taking as much sunlight as they possibly can and pumping it everywhere.

SPEAKER_00: 30:51

And so coming back to this stratification, the way we always organize the systems are having denser vegetation in the lower strata in the lower layers and sparser as we move upwards like a triangle so i mean if you were to overlap solar panels it would be the best way to get also some filtered light but taking into account that photosynthesis is an endothermal reaction so it cools down it cools down the place it doesn't release a heat but quite the opposite i mean it takes heat

SPEAKER_03: 31:22

that's why when you walk in under a tree or in any forest you immediately feel first of all better in summer mostly yes it just feels it's

SPEAKER_00: 31:30

an air conditioning it's an air conditioning unit yes and so if we organize our plantations like this as well i mean having more plants more layers underneath i mean not more layers more density more occupation underneath and less as we go upwards and very quickly as ernest suggests we have like a 15 to 20 percent of emergent plants those that are really they take full sunlight all the time and then we have like a...

SPEAKER_03: 31:58

Like a... That's a high tree. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 32:01

like a high

SPEAKER_03: 32:01

tree, yes. That take time to grow as well. No,

SPEAKER_00: 32:04

it depends. It could be. And then you have succession. For example, we have faster, emergent trees. For example, corn is an emergent plant from the placenta. I mean, it's more... There are some classifications of the consortium that we also divide into these groups of consortium that is also proposed by Ernest. So having this configuration, we have... layer is cooler than the one above. So this creates like a thermodynamic effect that traps moisture close to the ground. It's really one organism only. We can't just separate that. But when people say, oh, but trees, they take moisture away. It's because we plant them in monoculture when we see, for example, a monoculture of eucalyptus, but could be any other plants. Monoculture of pinus that we see here in Italy.

SPEAKER_03: 32:54

Or olives.

SPEAKER_00: 32:55

Yeah, the olives. whatever. I mean, we don't have a lot of density of photosynthesis happening underneath. So we have the cooling effect of the crown of this plant. So it's slightly cooler right below the crown and then it starts to warm up again because of sun and because of dry winds that take moisture away. So it doesn't work. I mean, the effect doesn't work. This is the physiognomy of a forest that is about to suffer a clearing, a disturbance to renew the information. So

SPEAKER_03: 33:26

there could be a fire coming or something or cut or... Yes. But if it's one layer only, you lose all the moisture and you lose... And it's going to become...

SPEAKER_00: 33:35

And what is unfair, the trees, they get the blame. And it is the most fatal interpretation mistake that we make because it

SPEAKER_03: 33:46

doesn't make any sense. So then under that top layer that is more sparse, it's less, there's another layer that's denser.

SPEAKER_00: 33:52

That is denser, like... Yes. And it's 40% we put... canopy plants. And then we put 60% of median layer plants, and then 80% of floor.

SPEAKER_03: 34:03

And 80, when you say 80, it means that space is 80% full. Yes,

SPEAKER_00: 34:07

yes, that's horizontal.

SPEAKER_03: 34:09

Listeners that are counting, that's more than 100% we're counting at the moment, which is one of the fundamental...

SPEAKER_00: 34:13

Precisely, it goes, and consider that it's still like 15% in the ground layer, so it's more than 220%.

SPEAKER_03: 34:21

And the ground layer gets diffused light, not a lot, but gets enough, and of course you plant specifically because this is very systematic you plant what can handle diffuse light and what can handle much more moist environment because under under under it's moist compared to up up

SPEAKER_00: 34:38

it is absolutely I mean all the plants we know most of it they evolved in a stratified motor story environment so

SPEAKER_03: 34:47

vines tomatoes corn nothing like very few species like to be full sun

SPEAKER_00: 34:53

yes precisely that so it's for example, we have this idea that, oh, some trees, they enjoy, I mean, they need full sunlight. We question that. They need light depending on when, which time of the year. For example, olives, they say, oh, olives need full sunlight. They come from a semi-dissidious forest. And they weren't a top one. No, no, they are canopy trees. So they need... They wouldn't mind having 15% of some taller trees, and being from a semi-dissidious forest, they would have some protection in the summer. And in the winter, the trees, I mean, when it's good to have more light, so the trees would lose their leaves anyway. It is the same with citrus where they come from, the same with coffee where they come from.

SPEAKER_03: 35:39

I read, I'm going to put it in the link, the best coffee in the world was voted, comes from a Syntropic Agroforestry system, I think last year or two years ago. Yeah. Quality expresses itself in complexity as

SPEAKER_00: 35:49

well. Yes. I mean, we have so many examples that it influences the quality of the product because when you put a tree in its just right position where it wants to be, it gets no stress. One example that I like to give is also a design that Ernest made in Brazil. It's, I mean, it combines banana, grass, citrus, and eucalyptus. I mean, banana... Plus other things, for sure. But yeah, these are the cash crops. Yeah, but these are the cash crops because it was a large-scale operation. And banana and eucalyptus are just famous for drying out soil. And people, they say, oh, we can't have it. It's going to become desert. And yes, if you leave them alone, they will have this stress. I mean, it's just like one organ alone. I mean, it's missing something. Parts of the organisms are missing. But in this area, and this area was precisely in 2014, it was a very dry year in Brazil, in Sao Paulo especially. And this place, I mean, the bananas had their leaves open, you know, when it was stratified. It was eucalyptus. Eucalyptus taking the big Yes. When they are combined, the dynamics are completely different because of layering photosynthesis. So this is something that we have to shout out loud because people still have this competition paradigm that we need to break this down because it's not true. I mean, yes, there is, but it's not the main thing, the competition. It's not. It's possible to combine plants and they prefer to be combined. But

SPEAKER_03: 37:26

also the competition in trees. I'm blanking on the name of the researcher. She's called Suzanne. Something that blew up that competition. First of all, she brought up the whole notion of trees actually communicating with each other and forming the basis of all the social network discussion on trees, etc. When she published that paper of the trees, like they communicate and feed their offspring and communicate and exchange feed. She was, I think, put in a corner for 20 years and ignored and called crazy. Of course, now we know that it's true. and probably much more than that and that whole competition idea even in there is a very very thin one let's

SPEAKER_00: 38:05

say it takes time it takes time we see Lynn Margulis for example also she was in the evolution because we still have this very dogmatic neo-darwinism paradigm that believes that competition drives evolution and Lynn Margulis brought so many evidence that it's not like this and she was also I mean she She has suffered a lot in the academic environments because of that. And the more we study, the more we see the competition doesn't make sense. But we see this as if we are seeing ourselves in the mirror. We understand the world because we believe that we are competitive people. So we see competition in everywhere else. So it is a kind of...

SPEAKER_03: 38:47

Reflection of

SPEAKER_00: 38:49

us. Yes, it's a reflection of us, which feels some purpose in the way we organized ourselves in society, being competitive people. So that's why we also believe that working in this way with nature also will change ourselves a little bit. So it will change the way we see relationships. I don't think a little bit.

SPEAKER_03: 39:10

I think it will change. For me, it's why starting with agriculture, soil and oceans as well. It's because it's an entry point to asking a lot of other. I mean, we have to start. We have to regenerate most of the planet, but it will force us to ask a lot of other very hard questions

SPEAKER_00: 39:26

about everything else. Yes, existential questions.

SPEAKER_03: 39:28

Why are we here? What is our role? But also very basic ones. What's the role of the economy? What's the role of money? What's the role of education? What's the role of cities? What's the role of infrastructure? What's the role of building, living? I mean, all of those sort of naturally follow how we manage land. And I would love to ask all of those now, but let's start with the agriculture one because it seems the most pressing one. And we're literally running out of soil.

SPEAKER_00: 39:50

Yeah, sorry. I left one question unanswered. I mean, how do we start? And then I was saying about the alien space. that we use in Portugal and other places. Because, for example, if you try to plant in a degraded soil the way it is now, with a climate that changed a little, that's getting not as quiet as it was before, you try to plant a climate species, which are like the last consortia, that's a very slow-growing plant, directly on the soil, I mean, it will suffer. Or it will require lots of water, lots of treatment. So as we work with society, succession, for example, we don't mind using an eucalyptus plant, which is an emergent from short-lived and secondary to kickstart. I mean, it will where it comes from, it's used to, like, it's a driller it goes through it, directly it downwards, so it prepares the root for the other trees to come. We had this experience, for example, on our farm in Brazil, because in Brazil also eucalyptus, and we use eucalyptus because it is a symbol of hate the tree and we try to bring justice to it a little bit

SPEAKER_03: 41:37

every tree and plant has a role

SPEAKER_00: 41:39

has a role and it's I mean if we use it right

SPEAKER_03: 41:42

it's just sacred and just when you say right and we go back to like in Portugal just as an example because I know you've been using that like the resistance is so much in many of these places because they have been slowly degrading or fastly degrading for many many many years but then I remember and please explain a bit on that that you said like when people started looking taking us more serious in Portugal is when in the height of summer the first summer our plants our vegetables and our trees etc didn't need irrigation like was that because you planned properly and because you covered and because you brought a lot of life to the place and just to like this is a place where everything else is irrigated because otherwise nothing grows like no vegetables anymore because they need irrigation and it's just too expensive or unpractical like to get to that point of in one year many people say agroforestry takes forever etc etc like even in one year you can already have quite a magical almost result a miracle result. How did you get there and what then was the response locally? Because I think many people that are listening are also working in places where they're doing things that most of their neighbors would consider crazy. How do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_00: 42:44

Yeah, okay. The first thing is to have a soil covered. We did our best to prepare the place to have a soil covered during the summer. And also to have as many plants as possible that are resistant to the drought. It doesn't matter which one. I mean, if we believe in photosynthesis if we believe that photosynthesis is an endothermal reaction that brings exudates to the soil.

SPEAKER_03: 43:09

If it grows, it grows.

SPEAKER_00: 43:10

If it grows, it grows. And so we try to always to crowd our beds with as many as possible with those plants, of course, respecting this criteria that I mentioned, succession. Which gives you a key which

SPEAKER_03: 43:23

menu of options.

SPEAKER_00: 43:24

Yes. As the place gets more degraded, your options are getting shorter and it gets shorter with the prejudice when you have those like red list plants that you can use because they are invasive. Jesus Christ. I mean, you know what? A desert is the other option.

SPEAKER_03: 43:42

Yeah, but I mean, also in this whole like exotic ones, I'm reading a book or listening to a book actually of bringing back the beavers in the UK and let's say the amount of hoops they had to jump through either legally or illegally. They're beavers now in the UK. They were brought back by some people and not always, let's say, following all the ancient rules against beavers because also in beaver's we think they compete, that they are the eating fish, which is completely untrue, they're vegetarian, they create landscapes. They're probably one of the keystone species of creating wetlands, etc. But the amount of hate we have against that, but then you need a few people that sometimes, I wouldn't say cut a corner, but make it possible that otherwise it would have taken 200 years to do that. So you might plant some things that you know are perfectly fine, but you can get into a lot of trouble for planting certain things that people think are dangerous, fire, exotic.

SPEAKER_00: 44:30

Yeah, but it's so crazy. I mean, it's Well, I believe, and Diana made a very nice literature. Yeah, my partner did a very nice literature review on that. I mean, I hope in the future we'll look back to the discussion and say, oh, how silly we were. To not use a plant that grows

SPEAKER_03: 44:47

perfectly here and that has so much to bring. I

SPEAKER_00: 44:50

mean, because the other option is to have nothing. And that is crazy. And also, if we go deep into that discussion, what is native to a place? I mean, talk about Italy. I mean, here in the Mediterranean, let's talk about the Mediterranean. Mediterranean diet. Tomatoes are not from here. I mean, some olives are from here, but not the ones we use. And grapes are not from here. All the peppers are not from here. The citrus are not from here. The grains are not from here. The figs are not from here. They're from the Jordan Valley. I mean, almost nothing is from here. And if you go really into that discussion, we are not from here. Let's go back to Africa where we belong. So it's a nonsense discussion. And

SPEAKER_03: 45:33

then when you look at your planting here, you're working on systems like how I think let's tackle two pieces that people will bring up to it. Like, okay, it's all nice and cute on small scale. Can it scale? First of all, let's unpack that one because you have proven that it can absolutely scale, not necessarily easy. It does bring complexity and other things on harvesting, et cetera, which are seem to be all fixable. So can it scale? And does it produce a lot of food because we have to feed the world and it has to replace this system that rarely is possible. producing a lot of food which is not really true but like in terms of what do you say when people let's say we were on a stage somewhere and we did this conversation live which hopefully at some point we can and in the audience yeah but what about feeding the world what is

SPEAKER_00: 46:14

your normal response we always get this of course

SPEAKER_03: 46:17

and what's your best what's

SPEAKER_00: 46:18

your best answer we still don't have a best answer for that and for sure not a short one because our group especially Ernest is I mean he became kind of for the past almost 10 years obsessed with large scale And it all comes to mechanization, of course. I mean, it's... Let's get it.

SPEAKER_03: 46:37

It's absolutely possible to do this beyond the permaculture, one hectare and manual, everything. You lose produce, but there are examples in Brazil and Portugal as well that are massive. To any extent, they are big.

SPEAKER_00: 46:50

Yeah, no. Yeah. In Portugal, I wouldn't say massive, but the designs are for large scale. And in Brazil...

SPEAKER_03: 46:56

You combine the tree lanes

SPEAKER_00: 46:58

with annuals. Yes. I mean, it's made for mechanization. It's not... I mean, you organize the system in a way to mechanize. Ernest began doing this, for example, in Fazenda da Toca in Brazil. And to be honest, I think up to now, I mean, the designs are brilliant. So what are we missing? The machines. We're missing the machines. We're missing the will. We're missing people understanding the role of it. I mean, there are so many...

SPEAKER_02: 47:25

It's an immersion.

SPEAKER_00: 47:27

Yes. It's very complex in a way because it's between three lines. And you have a perennial plant. For example, we use grasses for a very degraded place, like a perennial grass, a good one, like a Panicum Massimo. And so in between, you have some strips that you cut and you add your annuals or biennials. You can have cotton, you can have soy, you can have... So just

SPEAKER_03: 47:52

for visualization, we have tree lines, which are super complex with the different layers that we discuss, like fully grown, like I wouldn't say a wall of trees, but a lot of different species. not the normal or the agroforestry type we sometimes see in France where there's grain and then one layer of tree which is all very high and it's also agroforestry but it's different then in the middle you have in very degraded places as you mentioned a perennial grass that is always there because it's perennial which you cut and mulch and put on the layers and in potentially and then you plant your annuals in that grass so you don't it's not that you remove the grass plow it obviously etc you plant it in the grass could be soy could be cotton could be corn and it grows above it and you harvested recently.

SPEAKER_00: 48:33

Yeah, this year, I guess. No, last year, Ernest did another experiment because you saw those ones that Ernest and Fernando did at Cepeda. I'll put the video on it. It's amazing. But also, Ernest did other experiments, especially with cotton because cotton is very hard. It's the crop that takes most chemicals.

SPEAKER_03: 48:52

In the world.

SPEAKER_00: 48:52

Yes. And, I mean, you must see it. It's just, it's beautiful. I mean, not a problem between the three lines.

SPEAKER_03: 49:01

Growing cotton without any inputs

SPEAKER_00: 49:04

without any

SPEAKER_03: 49:04

without any irrigation

SPEAKER_00: 49:05

without irrigation without

SPEAKER_03: 49:06

any herbicides pesticides

SPEAKER_00: 49:08

yeah between tree lines so you're growing your tree lines

SPEAKER_03: 49:10

which are going to be

SPEAKER_00: 49:11

yes

SPEAKER_03: 49:13

very interesting in the future and already now because they are growing all kinds of fruits etc and you're growing a very expensive cash crop in the middle which is cotton in grass so it's always covered

SPEAKER_00: 49:22

so I think one of I try to comfort myself and I mean at least the role we all play especially Ernest I mean he's been investing everything he gets for the past year just to, I mean, he's putting money to build the machines himself and try to do that because I think there is some answer that came up already. It works. It works. It works

SPEAKER_03: 49:46

productively. The system

SPEAKER_00: 49:48

like that, the syntropic system works. Yes, it works. On one hectare, on a thousand, on two thousand. It would work in larger scale if we had the machines. And it's not, I mean, Ernest already designed a set of machines that that would be required. What do they

SPEAKER_03: 50:04

do, these machines? I mean, I know there's one for planting, which Benedikt

SPEAKER_00: 50:07

has used. Yeah, if they're planting, I mean, there is one machine to prepare the soil. Machines to prune and shred the material, like, immediately. And a machine to cut the grass in the line where you plant the grain, and then already behind it, covering it.

SPEAKER_03: 50:22

So you cut the grass, you cut a line in, you plant the grain, and you cut the grass as well, and mulch it immediately on top. Yes, immediately on top. So the grain has the perfect environment to...

SPEAKER_00: 50:30

And it doesn't need irrigation this way, and when the grass comes back so it sends an information of growth because I mean that's the grass wants to come back yes and so your crop benefits from that as well it works as a fertilization of the field so I mean we know already I mean it has proof enough that ecologically it works it produces because the plants are beautiful and Fernando with Ernest they collected some information some data about that I mean a soil bean doesn't produce less in this system but the problem is As you said, it is complex. And the machine industry is very, although it's big, it's very narrow, it's very limited. I mean, I've been with Ernest with some construction. In Brazil, he's been searching for people, but it's hard, especially now. One thing that our friends are saying that it's been, even if you go there with money and say, okay, I want to build this machine. But since the agribusiness in Brazil, the extractive industry, I mean, front is blooming. I mean, all the machine companies, they're just not interested. They're making rivers, oceans of money. Selling combined harvesters too. Yes. Those machines that are, I don't know how many tons and that costs$1 million. Why would they care? About a small light. Small lightweight machines that still with a, I mean, with this not a lot of people that know how to use. I mean, it's

SPEAKER_03: 52:01

hard. So we need creativity. from outside and would you say imagine again we're on the stage in a big theater a very nice one let's say somewhere la scala or something and we're having this discussion and the room is filled with investors with people business people as well people that are used to building things and they're bitten by the bug of regeneration and they're of course their jaws are on the floor that this is possible with trees what would you say what would be their role is it to where should they get involved to build things to invest to put money to work let's say in general invest maybe is a wrong term here but to to put money to work where would you without giving investment advice this is only education people please but where would you point them like go and look at this or go and dig deeper here and go and learn there what would you tell them like after they leave the theater where should they go and get to work

SPEAKER_00: 52:48

okay first i would say this technological part because it's not that no one in this group is against technology we we are we hope we had i mean we say okay the future the drones should do the pruning i'm I mean, robots should do the harvesting. We were just saying about, I mean, how crazy it is the way we still pick up olives in the field. I mean, it's nonsense. I mean, with all this technology we have available, we still... We're looking for

SPEAKER_03: 53:16

enabling technologies to enable farmers or land sewers to add more complexity

SPEAKER_00: 53:22

to the system. To add more complexity, yes. But overall, I would say to those investors that there are so many nice people doing nice things. Don't be cheap. I mean, those guys, those people, and I know many of them, they use 80%, 90% of their income they put into trying to find solutions for our real actual problems that we know exist. I mean, those guys, they feel very special. Sorry if I'm being aggressive a little bit. They feel very special because they risk 0.05% of their incomes that, I mean, come on, guys, you don't pay taxes already. It

SPEAKER_03: 54:01

wouldn't change anything.

SPEAKER_00: 54:02

Don't be cheap. We are all in the same boat. We are all facing the same problems. We have data enough. We have science enough showing that the way we are doing it has no future. It has no future for anyone. So let's flip the

SPEAKER_03: 54:18

question. What if you would be an investor tomorrow morning? I mean, you know, this question is coming. I prepared it, but you had a billion dollars to invest. I don't know what it is in Brazilian, right? Or a billion euros. What would you focus on? Would it all go to mechanization? Would

SPEAKER_00: 54:34

it go to

SPEAKER_03: 54:34

education farms,

SPEAKER_00: 54:35

genetics, nurseries? I would try some stuff. But yes, mechanization would be one, like to try to solve once for all this issue because the technology exists and we just need to make people understand why we need them and then make the machines and education would be for sure. I mean, Diane and I, we worked with children with school gardens in Mertula and we felt it was the most revolutionary thing that we could have done because we had worked before in, I mean, in larger areas, but working with the school in the smallest areas we've ever worked with, we couldn't imagine how impactful it was. I mean, the impact just multiplies. So whereas older people, I mean, like our generation and still, I mean, the current generation of farmers, I mean, we have to unlearn a lot of things that we learned from school, especially from the ecological point of view. But the children, they get it so quickly. And they will face the results, the consequences of what we are doing. They will face

SPEAKER_03: 55:41

it. So school gardens, getting the younger the better? What was your...

SPEAKER_00: 55:45

Younger the better. We work with five, six, seven, and it is amazing. The response is amazing. They understand very quickly. They understand the importance of covering the soil. They understand the importance of combining plants together. And they bring it home. They bring it home. And so they involve the family. And I think if we invest in a new generation, they will come up better than us. They will have, I'm not, I mean, I wouldn't say that I have the solution because I don't. It would be, I don't know, too, I would say egocentric of me saying that I don't, but I think we can prepare newer generations to find solutions where we can find, but we need to prepare them. We need to prepare them to be a better humanity than us.

SPEAKER_03: 56:34

And prepare to solve So they can plant. And if there's one thing you could change in agriculture and food, it could be unlearning everything we knew until now. It could be changing ag school. It could be giving everybody better taste. Or if you had a magic wand and you had the power to change one thing. So we took the fund away. You're no longer an investor. But what would you change? What would that... And you cannot ask for multiple. Some people do the trick. I would do three things. Not one. It's not Aladin.

SPEAKER_00: 57:00

You know, you sent me this question and I still don't know. I I still don't know the answer. First thing that comes up. If I could change one thing in agriculture, I think I would just forbid any monoculture of animals. I mean, at least that would change a little bit, at least to try to promote some creativity around. Yeah. But it's just one drop in the ocean because I think it's a very systemic thing.

SPEAKER_03: 57:27

But if tomorrow morning that would be forbidden, I think a lot, I mean, we have had people say, forbid all chemical inputs from tomorrow morning. I mean, those things, it's only one thing. And of course, we're dealing with a systemic issue and holistic approach. So one thing is never enough or shouldn't even do that. But still, it's an interesting starting point. Like if from tomorrow on, we're not allowed to grow monoculture annuals anymore, some of the hectares on this planet are going to change. Yes, I

SPEAKER_00: 57:54

mean, only annuals. We can add annuals. But not in monoculture. Not in monoculture and always trying to combine with something else. So it would... People would look for making consortia of plants, of cooperation.

SPEAKER_03: 58:09

And what you said, become creative again.

SPEAKER_00: 58:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 58:11

And, I mean, we've discussed a few points already, but what would be the one thing you would mention when I ask, where are you contrarian? What do you believe to be true about regeneration and regen ag that others don't? And this question definitely is inspired by John Kemp. Like, if you go to conferences, we're going, you know, there are many things. I mean, the trees bring the water, etc. If there's one thing that you would shout again, like, say, we might have already mentioned, mentioned it in the podcast before, what would you repeat or what would you shout out again if people could really see things differently?

SPEAKER_00: 58:41

I think it is the inclusion of trees because people are still reluctant to add them.

SPEAKER_03: 58:49

And will we overcome that by doing it, like showing? Is that the strongest thing we have? Because the data is there. The papers are there. The videos are there. We'll put Life in Syntropy, your documentary that won many awards in the show notes, obviously. And then we don't act. Like, do we need to see it to see if it's possible? Because here, like, it's olive trees, mostly dead, mostly desert around it. Like, it's really, it's a degraded ecosystem, better than some other places in Spain and some other places in Europe, and obviously Tunisia, et cetera. So to imagine that that's possible, What do we need? Very fancy VR glasses to see? Or do we need to visit Brazil and Portugal and other places to see? Then we say, oh no, but that's possible there, but not here. Or we just should start in almost every biome to start showing what

SPEAKER_00: 59:36

can be done. This is, I guess, changing agriculture. It is one of the most difficult things to do. I mean, agriculture is not the only way of doing things, but We did it 10,000 years ago, and we're kind of trapped in a way of doing farming. In actually the same way, we tend to blame agrochemicals or industrialization just to speed up the degradation. But what is happening now, it happened before, it is a kind of a sin of agricultural civilizations. And we change our social organization, we change political...

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:19

Because of

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:19

agriculture. But agriculture still remains. Agriculture is the backbone of our organization as a society. So changing that is very difficult. It's very difficult. So we see, I mean, we had moments in Brazil, for example, when we were in the novella and we were working with large scale people. We were in primetime TV. We were having discussions with politicians. We were optimistic. Okay, the change will come. The change will come. But then we see it no, it's not coming. It's not coming. So, I don't want to be pessimistic

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:54

here. Let's not end on a pessimistic

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:56

one. No, no, let's not. But it's a

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:58

marathon.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:59

It is a marathon and that's why I insist we need to carry on education with the younger generation because it's not an easy change to do, to change the way we do things. As you said, it's an extractive way of doing things, but it will require the participation of the whole society, not only farmers. I mean, only farmers can do that. We need everyone to be involved. Everyone to be involved.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:28

And I think it was an interview with Ross Konser. I don't know if you share the same view. Like, is this inevitable? Like the complexifying, like nature wants this. That's very clear. If we leave it long enough in some places or with enough management because we have degraded it enough, it's not that, but it will express this complexity naturally, whatever naturally means. If we won't do it, will there be another species? Like, will the ants take up that and say, okay, now we're going to do it? Like, will there be like, because I remember from the conversation with Ross and I will link it below as well. Like he was a very comfortable like we are the species to do this and if we don't i mean this is the natural expression of life anyway to get complexified to to regenerate and yeah we can speed it up that's our role do you do you feel comfortable or do you feel rushed at night like

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:13

no i think uh all the other species are doing this are trying to do this we are the only one on the way and yes i agree this is and that's why also ernest named identified his method as intro because it is a tendency of life. I mean, entropic tends to simplify, complex to simple, and syntropic tends to use entropic residues to build complexity. And life does that. So we need to join the rest. Yes, we need to join the rest because life is doing this all the time. An ant is doing this when it's accumulating resources to one place. I mean, they're doing it. All the animals are trying to do that. So if we take ourselves out, If we remove ourselves from the place, taking our domesticated animals, any place improves. I mean, it will complexify again. It's more obvious if you go to places not as degraded. But here, here is nice. It's still nice. I mean, the south of Italy is still okay. And it will happen eventually. But we need to give it a chance. And again, we need to join the flow. And if we join the flow, we suspect that we also will find some purpose for our species and we've never been so ill in terms of you know depression we are kind of of a lost species in existence so if we find a role and work with other living beings to make a better place for everyone I think it will also heal us in a way because this planet was not supposed to have pain and suffering it's not predicted to run on pain and suffering and the way we are behaving we are causing lots of pain and suffering. And it could have been different. The paradise is here, it's not somewhere else.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:03

And we can harvest the apple. Yes. As long as we plant more trees. I want to thank you so much, Filippo. We can talk for hours on this and we will in the future, I'm sure. But it was a good quote-unquote intro to the topic and I will link a lot of the things below. But thank you so much for your time and for your work and for allowing us to follow it along.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:21

Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to be with you and Antonella for these days here in Puglia, in Salento. And I take the chance to congratulate you on your work. You are doing a very important work of building these bridges that are essential to make this universe to connect. Thanks for that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:42

Yeah, I think as a lesson to all investors, when in doubt, you will see it in the video I share as well. Plant more trees. Are you still doubting? Plant more trees. Are you full of uncertainties? Plant even more

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:53

trees. Yes, that's true. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:55

If you found investing in regenerative If this podcast has been of value to you, and if you have the means, please join my membership community to help grow this platform and allow me to take it further. You can find all the details on gumroad.com slash invite. Thank you so much and see you at the next podcast.