160 Benedikt Bösel, updates from the 3000h German farm in transition

A check in interview with Benedikt Bösel, German farmer in transition to regenerative agriculture. 
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Benedikt has been the co-host of our special series on Transition Finance for Farmers in 2020.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Finally, after a year and a half, even more, after the summer of 2020, an update with Benedikt Boesel, one of the leading farmers applying regenerative practices at scale in Europe, farming over 3,000 hectares of which 2,000 forestry and 1,000 organic grain in a very, very dry area east of Berlin. We talk about what has changed and how the on-farm experimentation, even in the forestry part, has simply exploded. And what were the crucial elements to have this crazy growth? And we talk about where are we in this regenerative evolution and how we really, really don't know anything. Welcome to another episode of investors, big and small, and consumers start paying much more attention to the dirt slash soil underneath our feet. In March last year, we launched our membership community to make it easy for fans to support our work. And so many of you have joined as a member. We've launched different types of benefits, exclusive content, Q&A webinars with former guests, Ask Me Anything sessions plus so much more to come in the future. For more information on the different tiers, benefits and how to become a member, check gumroad.com slash investingbridgeandegg or find the link below. Thank you. Welcome to another episode today with my good friend, Benedikt Beusel, who's back after the series we did. And we just looked at when we released the last one, which was in the summer of 2020 and so much has changed. So we're checking in with one of the most interesting regenerative farmers or farmers using regenerative practices on a large scale farm and forestry farm, actually east of Berlin. And I'm so happy to have you back here and to check in. It's going to be a full episode. There's a lot to discuss, so let's see if we can squeeze it into an hour or a bit less and otherwise we do another one in six months or so because it seems like the speed of change has only picked up so there's so much to unpack welcome benedict

SPEAKER_01: 2:23

hi kun thank you so much for the invitation good to see you

SPEAKER_00: 2:26

and i mean it's it's horrible to say but can you give us a brief overview it's not brief but like let's say the summer if you're thinking back on the summer of 2020 we just came out of the first lockdown we had no idea of covid how long that was going to take etc and now you're feeling now we're talking let's say the middle of winter or the end of winter in 2022, what's the biggest feeling of change? How do you feel most different? I mean, private is another story, but definitely around the farm. What's your biggest shift or what's your biggest change that you feel if somebody put you there and said, okay, you have five words to answer that?

SPEAKER_01: 3:02

That's a tough one. I mean, really, there's no private life and farm life. It's, you know, it's all just one big thing, I guess. So I would have have to say that the birth of my daughter in May last year definitely had by far the biggest impact.

SPEAKER_00: 3:22

So all the farming changes are disappearing compared to family expansion, which I think most people can agree on. And when you look at the farm or the land or the farming company, what do you see has shifted in that year and a half, which seems... so long ago if we think about it

SPEAKER_01: 3:40

yeah it's incredible to think about I mean one and a half years is really not that long but like I can't really think back to it anymore and I think what's the biggest shift is that the energy that I was carrying around in my heart in my head is now actually starting to become real outside because we've just been able to grow the team so strongly and just have the most incredible people without that I just have the biggest respect and love for them and what they do outside is just incredible. And to see that happen is quite touching, to be honest with you. It's still hard work and a tough life, but it's beautiful to see what can happen if you just stick with it and take some risks, I guess.

SPEAKER_00: 4:28

And so let's unpack that a bit. How were you able to grow the team? Because, of course, you had a farming team back in the day when we talked, but not so much on the regenerative side. And now there's a full suite. So walk us through how many people are there now on the farm? When you say grow the team, it could also be from one to two. And that's a huge growth. But in this case, we talk about a slightly different growth. And how did you, were you able to bring them to the farm? And how did you find all these people?

SPEAKER_01: 4:55

Yeah, that's a good question. It's always to be kind of difficult to make sense of it looking back. Most of the time, it always makes sense when you look back. But in this case, things just happen naturally, I think. Like, I think this is one of the things that I I found if you're lucky enough to find what you are supposed to do in life, which I was looking for 15 years of my life doing finance and all the other stuff, and if that is in line with what's needed at that point in your context, and this is for me agriculture in a very dry environment, then I think there's something like energy of the universe that helps you, right? Like if you do shit, of course, then it's not going to help you, hopefully. But if you have a good path that makes sense for the context and the environment, then there's some weird form of support, serendipity all over the place. It's just really, I don't know. But yeah, I mean, back in the day, I mean, we already had a few in the regenerative team, I guess, but quite a few of them were just interns. And back in the day, we'd had had no financial means. We were extremely struggling with the forest company, with the agriculture company. We had been in a drought for two or three years in a row. We couldn't do any investments. We had bad liquidity. And it still is just insanely tough in this environment, in this region, to do agriculture or forestry, especially if you want to do it in a, let's say, healthy way. And what made us strong back in the day was that I had the people that were doing an internship and they had no pay. They didn't get any food. Like, you know, they were just with us because they believed in what we were doing and what we were believing. And I guess they trusted me that I can somehow find a way to finally also maybe pay them something, right? So I think we were just a few, a handful at that time that believed that there is something that we should push and keep doing. Because, I mean, when we started planting the first trees in an agroforest system, when I swapped my car against the car Like, you know, I always thought before the money runs out, I'll find people who understand why we do what we do and also understand why it's important to do it. Therefore, we'll start to support us. And as always in life, things take a bit longer and are a bit more expensive than you expected them.

SPEAKER_00: 7:17

You mean that it took a bit longer before the money ran out?

SPEAKER_01: 7:20

No, the money didn't last that long, unfortunately. But yeah, so I guess they were sticking with us or we were all believing. and you know us making the next step and luckily towards I think the end of 2020 yeah of course I met a guy Julius from a company called Follow Food which is like one of the most sustainable food brands in Germany and they started as Follow Fish so you have basically traceable means of seeing where the food comes from and we met actually on the day where we got some more cows which was very exciting and you know he's just been the most incredible human. He said, look, this is exactly what we're looking for. You are doing it. We want to support you. And they didn't do this because they wanted an equity stake or they didn't do it because they want to brag about it. They just said, look, we want to support stuff that you do and that's why we support you. And he stepped up. If it wasn't for him, we wouldn't be here right now. I wouldn't be talking to you. And you know this and probably quite a few listeners who are trying to start something know this also. When you have an idea and you have a vision and you have some energy to put that to life, you'll meet hundreds of people that tell you how great they think you are and how great it is what you're doing. And they're like, yeah, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. But nothing's going to happen. If they have to sign a paycheck, suddenly it's all not that great anymore. And so there I have to say, if it wasn't for him in that moment, that was a huge step for us because that allowed us to actually continue, start to actually employ some of the interns that I had believed to stay with us. And that was sort of the first step. And then shortly thereafter, we actually won a prize with a brand called Ecova. They do like sustainable washing soaps and this kind of stuff. And they had been quite successful through Corona and said, okay, we want to give this back to nature-based solutions. And I couldn't sleep at one point and saw that the advertisement and thought, why not apply? And then I totally forgot about it. I just brought like something about holistic transformation of a forest because we are here in eastern brandenburg have like 74 pine monoculture which is a ticking time bomb if you want right

SPEAKER_00: 9:41

so you think it's forest like when you hear these numbers of the forest cover in europe has been growing yeah there are trees but if you drive through them and i've been there it's yeah it's factory farm trees or it's like to say biodiversity and life isn't really active in that place to say the least

SPEAKER_01: 9:58

yeah it is i mean it really is a ticking time bomb like it's not able to withstand what's coming and this is a fact right but it's of such a great magnitude that people are not like the politicians are not daring to say because we have this I mean this is a different discussion but we have the same problem in agriculture as we have in forestry like we have things that we actually do and contribute with regards to climate or rural development activities which are not paid for which of course that money would be used to transform what we have to do in order to you know withstand whatever you know the you know the drill

SPEAKER_00: 10:33

and just out of in terms of context and your farm or the farm you manage and hopefully will pass on to the next generations is 1000 hectare organic grain and now mixes and their tree coming to that as well but 2000 hectares of forest so the first piece is a is a big chunk of the farm let's say

SPEAKER_01: 10:53

yeah for sure and potentially of course also such a big part of the economic feasibility of an area like this but for that to happen you know you have to invest for a long time and transform the whole setup of the forest

SPEAKER_00: 11:06

so you decided to write this for this prize on the forestry part because you were still half sleeping or because you thought let's not write about the farming part you thought this is a perfect nature based solution what made you write that piece on that and not talk about okay I would like more animals and more electric fences

SPEAKER_01: 11:24

well to be honest with you because at that point we already kind of knew in which sort directions we want to go with with regards to all the on-farm research and development as far as agroforestry and specifically syntropic agroforestry is concerned we already were planning and thinking and talking about silvopasture models and so i thought also something i learned in school i always spend time trying to understand the exam and the teacher to know what kind of thing he's going to be asking for and in that sense also i mean i think there was five different areas where you could apply for agriculture or land use was one but it There was one forest one. I thought

SPEAKER_00: 12:02

nobody's going to do

SPEAKER_01: 12:03

forest. The competition in the forest is going to be less big. So let's go for forest. That's probably what I went, you know, looking for the shortcut. But yeah. And at the same time, you know, it is a huge problem for us and something that is just above my head waiting to fall down. So it is something that is also.

SPEAKER_00: 12:21

You forgot about it and then you won. So you basically suddenly out of nowhere, you got a phone call, you got an email. What happened there with that competition?

SPEAKER_01: 13:18

Yeah. suddenly i got this email and like congratulations you were in the finalist round of xyz and i was like yeah i couldn't really really remember because it was like three or two months or whatever ago and you know the application to get into that space was just really really short like i did it in like a half an hour and then we were invited to actually do a proper casual statement and a proper description and then we actually went into the pro like into the the planning progress and then had a presentation in front of the jury and all that and then the end we were one of three projects that were selected out of 760 something I think and so that was another huge thing for us which would basically enable us not only to get started on the whole planning and the process of bringing that project to life but of course we as a team knew okay you know it's the story continues at least for a bit and so that was basically then the next big step for us and and now we're already in 20 2021 and there was then pretty much let's say the most the last piece of the puzzle so to say to bring us on the stage where we wanted to be because we met people incredible people again that basically I was telling my story in the sense of you know I've done this before and then I took over the farm and I realized technology as we know it now is not the solution we have to focus on ecosystem health soil health and then I'm looking at different models all over the world and then deciding I want to bring them all to a place where it's just incredibly difficult to do agriculture or forestry in the first place, to then test and develop on our fields, to gather the data and develop software and technology in order to scale it on areas where we might add some value through this work. And I said, look, but this is the thing is that you can't get any grants for this. No one understands that innovation, system innovation, ecological innovation is just as important as technological innovation. And then those guys was like, interesting, because Lisa are the kind of project that we finance that don't get any other money and it's like

SPEAKER_00: 15:22

no

SPEAKER_01: 15:22

really okay

SPEAKER_00: 15:24

but you must have heard that before as well and in this case they actually follow through like that's

SPEAKER_01: 15:29

exactly I mean yeah to be honest with you if you like you ask me what's the most and maybe the most important thing looking back or the most unique experience it's it's just about the people everyone's just chatting and everyone's just it's always about the people like you need to find the right people it doesn't really matter what's the topic It's just the people, right? And this is for your team. This is for your supporters. This is for your partners. This is, you know, just have people, great people around you. Anyway, so yeah, and that then enabled us to actually found a foundation together with them that now we can actually use to do really the sort of professional scientific monitoring and analysis and data gathering and all of that, which actually then builds on having syntropic agroforestry systems. Different ones are Because the idea is always to not only gather the data as far as, you know, how is the process of actually, let's say, designing an agroforestry system and what are the investment costs and the harvest costs, as I say, or maintenance costs, but also what are the potential yield estimates, right? So how can I actually find an investable economic model? This is one part of the coin. But the other part of the coin is what does really happen with carbon beneath agroforestry? forestry systems what does really happen with biodiversity what does really happen with the wind speed the soil temperature on all these things that today we just talk about and we know they're relevant but we don't include them in the discussion of systems

SPEAKER_00: 16:59

you know they change but we don't know how much which direction do they change exactly as a benefit or not and this is this is all research and development and i think that's we reach that conclusion at the end of this series as well and i invite everybody obviously to listen to it i will put the link in the show notes that we can talk all of about transition finance models, that unless the business models of farmers improve, it's all empty talk. And so we really got, and we'll unpack that a bit further in this conversation as well. We need better offtake agreements. We need better contracts. But before we even talk about that, we need to actually have agricultural models that work with limited input, that work in the difficult context, that work in any context. And for any context, in this case, it's Brandenburg. Someone needs to figure out what is the model? What's the recipe? And when you're figuring that out, you need grand capital, unless you have a deep pockets yourself and then you're financing your own grand capital but you need research and development and you need to be able to because nobody will teach you how to do these models unless you have a very advanced few farmers around you that have been doing this for 30 years if you're one of the first you're gonna pay the research and development costs and a few grand euros and dollars can go a very very very long way but it is grand capital I mean it might come back in some ecosystem services somewhere in the future but you need to figure out what's in trouble agroforestry model works for you what is the integration of animals in this specific context etc etc and that people often forget like oh let's finance all of it i mean this is a podcast talking about investing but before we can invest there's a lot of i mean if you look at the rocket space the electric car space if you look at i mean the electronic space where we're using to record this it's all been financed by research and development partly private partly public so let's let's not step over that fundamental piece of of grand capital there or research and development very patient capital that can help help enable people like you to find the recipes that work and then we can talk about scale and financing it and all of that.

SPEAKER_01: 18:55

Yeah I mean I couldn't agree more you know it's so beautiful to see all the attention that agriculture now gets and of course specifically regenerative agriculture gets but like I think we put a lot of pressure on the farmers that are in really different situations to what we believe regenerative agriculture can be as a key and solution to everything and I truly believe that it of course can be but we can't forget that most farmers are stuck in a system they have been forced or not forced but they have been nudged asked to produce as much as they can for the cheapest price for many many years and this system has been supported by billions and billions and billions and now we turn to the farmers to say oh by the way can you maybe do a bit more for animal husbandry and why not do a bit more biodiversity and you're like sorry what And then I was like, okay, well, let's invest in regenerative agriculture. Well, before we invest in anything, we need proven business models. We need calculation and data that we can actually use to assess if it makes worth to do X, Y, Z in a regenerative sense. And there's so much work that still needs to be done and data still needs to be gathered and also technology and software that needs to be changed. And specifically, we have to look towards politics and companies and all of those big decisions that are not downward at the farmer's level, but in the European gap and so forth. And it's always easy to say, let the farmers do it. No, it doesn't work like that. Let's change some of the really big questions that we hardly ever talk about in that sense. Scientific community, education, access to land, access to finance, all these things. You, of course, talk about a lot, but I don't as

SPEAKER_00: 20:39

much. We're a niche in a niche. And so let's unpack a few of those. In terms of the conclusion we reached at that point, in terms of off-take agreements, How has that changed over the last year and a half? Has that changed? First of all, let's ask the question. Are you still in the, still in between brackets, in the organic commodity market? Is that something you're working on? What's been there? I mean, are we going to see your face on a package anytime soon of flour and milk with your grain, like your smiley face with your hipster face with your hat? What's the progress there?

SPEAKER_01: 21:12

Well, I have to disappoint you with that, but yeah, I mean, we have been working on that and we have been trying to see what is possible but it's you know the world is not waiting for you for you in a sense right like there has to be you know you have to have a really good strategy you have to have a good idea but i mean the main product that we're currently producing is grain and flour for example is not for most a product that is specifically sexy with regards to i don't know an old wine from a certain age that you know xyz like of course you can go into that and take it for that quality and tell that story and you have a special stone mill and you have the starch breaking down in different scents and it's beautiful and tasty and all that, for sure. But communicate that on a package where someone takes maybe one or two seconds to look at and they're also going to look at the price like 100%. So it's a tough product. It's an incredible product. I think it has an insane potential also. because as a staple, it can carry that message so beautifully. So it's definitely something I'm still figuring out, thinking about, talking about, and seeing where we can go with it. Yeah, but it's not something that you just do and then it works.

SPEAKER_00: 22:34

Create a brand. No, no, I don't think it will be out now, but at some point we'll be interviewing Wild Farmed, which is an interesting wild farming, two different companies in the UK, working a lot on flower and direct seeding and integration of animals. And they have built that connection to the bakeries, et cetera. So there's that pool because without that, yeah, you're going to be just the next package on the shelf and probably very expensive compared to, but actually the right price, but very expensive compared to the others. And that's just not going to fly like you that's. And the amount of time it takes to create a brand is, yeah, is something that will happen, but maybe not now. So let's talk about on the farm, what has happened. There were some animals on the farm where differences of cows, there were some chickens during the series. I think we recorded, but if you had to give an overview now of the different experiments or what's the craziest experiment that's been going on for the last year and a half if you had to pick one

SPEAKER_01: 23:25

well so I mean as far as the team is concerned you know we have now grown to a solid team of well all together throughout the different companies we have more than 25 full-time employees and we have an average between 5 and 15 interns basically and then on special let's say planting occasions a lot of people yeah

SPEAKER_00: 23:47

which is great because you're quite remote and having energy around you i think for many farmers is what keeps them going and i know that's the case in your case as well

SPEAKER_01: 23:56

yeah i mean 100 you know i think this is what where i take so much power and energy from is to see like the people that come here and you know they are just they're just incredible people they are gifted they are smart they are hard working you know they have their their hearts at the right spot and you know they believe in what we do and they believe that also there is hope you know i I think that is something that is so crucial. What is just so hopeful is that these people that come here, they could earn three times, two times, four times what you can pay as a farmer. But what they have realized is that agriculture is, simply put, the biggest instrument to overcome some of the biggest problems of our time. It's not just primary production. It's health. It's climate adaptation, of course. It's biodiversity. It's development of rural areas. It's culture. It's education. It's all of it. it right and that's what we need to understand globally and it has to start politicians but it goes beyond that of course because if we understand that this is what agriculture is we of course would look at it differently we would see it differently we would finance it differently the scientific community would go into different direction the focus on machines and technology and software would go into a different direction but it's not yet happening but you know this is really what what has to come across so i mean our team now we have a two people rosie and renke that are heading our agroforestry system our agroforestry team, Jojo's who's heading the tree nursery, Lawrence who's doing the compost, Berger's doing the holistic grazing, Max who's in charge of all the scientific data gathering. I mean, the list just goes on and we are just incredibly lucky to have these most incredible people that just showed up. I'm just emotionally touched by being here in this space and having them with us around us and also us as a team with people that have been here for many years from the agriculture from the forestry or in the office now starting to grow together so much more and having more time to to actually speak about that shared vision and that shared idea yet being so differently

SPEAKER_00: 26:06

how's it going that integration of the the old squad basically that has been there for me because you as a large farming company also before you started on the whole regenerative journey obviously you employed a lot of people I think over 20 and then you come bring this young bunch in because people you just mentioned are not over 40 let's say and they come with all these crazy ideas about integration of trees and animals and life and mycorrhizae and compost and etc etc how is that integration or has it happened like how is it that symbiotic relationship going and is that really tough because it's I think what many people see I mean it's nice to come in with new energy but it can also hit a wall because you might have come in with too much energy and are trying to disturb systems that have been going the same direction for a long time. Is that a worry? Is that going well? What's your experience there of these two, almost two different worlds?

SPEAKER_01: 26:58

That's a really good question. And it's one that I haven't figured out particularly well for quite a few years, but now really working on it, this is really my focus now. And to be honest with you, I think what makes us as a group here in Madlitz strong is that we are exactly what you described, so diverse. We have people with different experiences different backgrounds different visions and philosophies and and that is really so crucial for the work that we do because i mean what we are essentially focusing on is together data and information and wanting to find ways that we can then scale regenerative agriculture models and instruments on huge areas not only in ours but make that data accessible to other people right and and in that process it's important to you know not drift off in your little eco warrior bubble but you have to be on the ground like you have to understand the worries and the stuff that go through farmers heads you have to understand why they might emotionally have a problem with one of the things that you're trying to do you just need to be like there right and having that group that is so diverse and having that tension sometimes and the discussion sometimes about certain things and ways and philosophies is what keeps you being aware and on the ground and so i think that is really really making us very strong and it's also beautiful because if you manage to put that together in a room and if you manage to establish communication lines where they can actually share and kind of also respect themselves or each other good things come from that's how creativity is happening i guess right and for me i think there's many ways to bake a cake but for me you know we like on my for me personally you know we was struggling with the companies for a good few years you know and it was not a nice time for me it was really really tough and we started with all let's say you know the first regenerative ideas and things that we did outside and back in the day of course we we didn't have much to show for right it it kind of grew and started to grow and then suddenly there's some interns and some people like also there and then of course you know it's difficult and different in the have of course come quite a far way and now can actually show a lot out there and so having gone through all of that and having actually established now let's say an organization set up that allows us to look to the future and to actually build on that which we weren't able to at all in the last four years now was the time for me actually to say okay now is the time where I bring them together and we focus more on communication and we focus more on certain ways that we want to do and be with each other and live and learn from each other which before that I just had no time to that I you know it was it's my fault in the end of the day you know the the fish starts smelling at the head or I don't know how do you say that saying in English but

SPEAKER_00: 30:03

no idea but it sounds good

SPEAKER_01: 30:06

for sure it's not easy for sure and it's a process and you know you're not ever gonna make everyone happy at the same time like that's not how people are you know that there's gonna be people who are annoyed and there's going to be things that don't go well and that's part of life like and you know we are trying to transform 3000 hectares of agriculture and forestry like anyone who thinks that that process is beautiful that within that transformation phase you know all the communication is going well and everything is going well and everything is always clean no it's not going to happen a startup who is in a certain phase is not going to have perfect processes also it's part of what we have to do this is why it is also hard right

SPEAKER_00: 30:51

it's very messy yeah and that has to fit that has to fit and for sure it doesn't fit for everyone and that's okay i mean there's no no hard feelings there and so let's talk a bit what's happening on the ground in the ground above the ground i saw some crazy pictures on instagram of a lot of fallen trees or cut trees what's been happening there in the forest did you get a very very concentrated wind blow going around

SPEAKER_01: 31:15

i have to say i was there yeah two days before and I haven't been there for a week or one and a half weeks and I'm just in awe what they have again pulled out of the pocket so actually this is the forest transformation project that I was referring to earlier from ECOVA where we basically have identified five different plots of between one and a half and 2.1 hectares each within a very homogeneous pine monoculture forest that we are And those five we have then designed in different transformation styles. So one is basically just like the zero plot. So we just put a fence around it, don't do anything just to see what would happen if we don't do anything, basically. And then all the other plots are starting from quite easily scalable because it's not very difficult to do. It's quite cheap to do, like the transformation cutting down some trees, let's say, to become more and more specialized, more and more diversity, more and more labor intensive to then actually end in the last and the most incredible transformation plot where we bring in all the knowledge of syntropic agriculture into forest transformation. So Renke, our head of agroforestry, works very closely with Ernst Gutsch in this project, for example. They've been in contact back and forth like how we should transform it and what should we do and which seeds and which trees and grass and this and that. So that's really what those pictures that you saw where we have like this plot.

SPEAKER_00: 32:45

Just describe it visually I'll put photos if I can find them on Instagram. But if not, just visually take us on how does that most extreme plot look like now and how would it potentially look like in the future? But make it visual because we are out here.

SPEAKER_01: 33:02

You're much more gifted in this than I do. But basically, if you think of the pine monoculture, right, you just see it's actually kind of beautiful in a weird, disgusting sense. But, you know, you just have flat soil and you have all this trees, which is just like really, really straight. And the canopy at the beginning is at the top is touching each other. So basically it's kind of dark underneath. And so you see down the tree lines for miles, like you can see so far down there, right?

SPEAKER_00: 33:30

Because they're all straight. They're all planted at the same time. They're all planted in the same rows and there's nothing underneath obviously growing.

SPEAKER_01: 33:37

And, and everyone is unique, but they all look the same if you know what I mean. Anyway. So, so within that monoculture tree structure, we just go in and take out like a square sort say or identify a square and within the centropic transformation of that pine horticulture we take out a third hundred percent of the trees so we take them all down there's only one birch tree still standing there and from those trees that have been taken down there actually around 40% we take out of the forest and we'll sell but 60% of the trees that we took down have then been aligned basically in lines left and right of prepared seed beds and the seed beds then have either a very diverse mix of different trees and shrubs and bushes and a few other things planted in there or also of course proper trees yeah proper trees and shrubs which are not only seeds but also actually visible as such and so in that let's say reorganization model we basically then plant through seeds and trees an incredibly diverse mix of a forest and all of that is basically prepared by yeah mulching the trees next to those seed beds so if you stand in there you just see basically no tree around and you have these weird lines where you have really big tree chunks lining up left and right left and right so it's really incredible because your eye has never seen something like that so if you stand in there you're really irritated in a sense but then if you have a telling you exactly what's happening where you know your mind is just blown off because there's just so much thought he put in it and and ernst of course is is from another planet when it comes to designing those kind of ecosystems right and then from there if you turn around 180 degrees you still have some tree structure but where we only took out 60 percent of the trees so you still have you know some trees there and the canopy is still there but it's much more lighter and underneath the same thing you also got those rows which have been prepared with this preparation tool and then seeded and mulched again left and right. So it's just, you know, it's insane what work went in there. And the next years are going to be so interesting because we have all of these projects are scientifically monitored and really strongly analyzed through different sensors, of course, as far as the soil is concerned. Of course, the biology soil biology but even more sort of water relevant topics the whole biodiversity side of it the economic analysis of it so it's yeah it's really an outrageous project and we're just very much looking forward to see it in a few years because of course it will change over time and there's so much valuable info that we need actually to assess forest transformation techniques and also put a price tag to values that forests can take with regards to biodiversity with regards to cooling effects, with regards of water storage and carbon storage and all these things. Today we talk about it a lot, but we can't really put a price tag on it. So that's part of what we're doing. And then, I mean, on the agriculture side, we have established a few more systems. We've actually started in 2021 with our own sort of syntropic tree nursery where Jojo has basically from scratch built the most amazing, beautifully shaped tree nursery where we've done roughly nearly 2000 different fruit trees specifically like apple and pear and plum and those trees that he started to develop in the beginning of last year we've actually planted in our first keyline centropic agroforestry system towards the end of last year so we have now a beautiful keyline system that's on roughly 3.5 hectares we have planted a large silver pasture agroforestry systems on six hectares where we only have five meters between row and row. We've done a very interesting centropic seed agroforestry system where we actually just plant the underlying growth parts of the fruit trees that later we will put together with the fruit variety. So that is very, very interesting with regards to having a system that is really, really location and climate adapted because it kind of grows here from the very start that's really interesting our whole composting facility is just going wild lawrence yeah lawrence

SPEAKER_00: 38:25

i remember visiting in was it october and lawrence was saying you were doing some trials around seed coating and the grain seeds that just went in the winter grain if i'm correct with a compost fermented compost extract if i'm correct and the effect that you saw like in a couple of weeks i don't know if it carried through through the winter was already i mean of course it was to be scientifically backed up, but the visual effect in terms of root growth, like three weeks after, after you coated the seeds, was stunning. And like, of course, you have to see how it harvests, how it's et cetera, et cetera. But just for the dummy, like me, seeing that root growth, that difference in three weeks between the control piece of grain and the plot that was, or most of the other that was coated with this crazy compost, fermented compost extract was just stunning to see the potential there. This was just the first year. And I'm imagining the amount of experimentation they it's just gonna go through the roof

SPEAKER_01: 39:51

yeah I mean absolutely like the whole I think as far as the compost is concerned it's so obvious that you know with every day and everything you learn or you try or maybe even understand a bit more you realize that you don't know anything like you are just in a universe of knowing nothing basically right and that is really the beauty of it because like there is just you know we're just scraping of what's possible, right? Like, I am 100% convinced that we don't need anything as a farmer. We just need to understand much more of the complexity of the ecosystem and the interdependencies of different components in an ecosystem and all the potential that we can gather through all the old knowledge that we already had. I mean, it was all there. And I think if we come back to that, you know, I think that's really one of the biggest things yeah steps for us to become independent farmers again and you know everything today out there makes us dependent and like that's the worst that can happen like it's really the worst that can happen it's more dependent farmers and also to see lawrence who started as an intern you know he is auto detect an auto detective compost expert now i don't think there's many that he's like a sponge you know like sponge from microbes and fungi i

SPEAKER_00: 41:18

would argue to another man at that level in europe of course i'm going to get emails about this

SPEAKER_01: 41:22

i mean i i don't know anything so i can easily say

SPEAKER_00: 41:26

that right i don't know anything either but it seems like i mean there are not many that are able to absorb and play between brackets but play in the best sense of word at this scale and that combination plus of course the rest of the team makes a very powerful combination like this is not i'm doing a few plots here and that's it now i'm actually able to in all of these to take it to a scale that hardly anybody in europe can simply because of the context and in this case you can you will and you have to as well and so it's to finalize are you organizing I mean I would say to people go and visit farms are there tours coming up this year can people go and come and experience in a structured way don't all just show up at Benedict's he's very busy but are there going to be structured ways for people to experience the composting the animals the centropic fields the crazy forest experiments etc

SPEAKER_01: 42:17

well I mean let's say working on it I mean we of course we do have like farm tours and people that come and come and visit which hasn't always been easy through corona and so forth and this is something definitely that we want to do more because it's just also really beautiful to see people react to this kind of stuff because you know you hear so much shit out there and everything is going bad and like climate change and you know there's just not many good news out there but so I think people are really longing for some hope and they're longing for to see some I don't know a place where there's just people who are really happy and most of the time I guess but who are just doing something because they really love it and they do it because it has an insane potential and and that's the spirit I think that you can also experience here so I love doing it you know I if I have people coming around and sometimes on the weekend okay let's go and we jump on the mule and drive around so you know it's with all the shit that you also have doing it this is some of the upside that you have that people are just really happy to see it and that's some form of payback but yet of course it gets more and more and then it becomes more difficult to to manage that so actually we are in the process of thinking how can we find a certain as you said like structured way of doing it but we're definitely working on it

SPEAKER_00: 43:42

and the last question on i always say last question and it never is on the scientific side like the data collection how has that changed I mean, it changed dramatically. You mentioned it a few times, but just for people to understand that this is a giant experiment or many experiments, but actually being followed quite closely by many people and over the next years, even more. What's been happening on the data collection side with all these experiments you're running basically on the cloud?

SPEAKER_01: 44:06

I think what's really incredible also to see is like the interest in the scientific community. When I started really like, I don't know, 2018, 2019, I asked around, of course, and I wrote like grant proposals and stuff like that and no one ever was interested like they were just like no okay well yeah you can pay for it but not really and now the same kind of institutes and organizations and universities are like oh wow you're doing that oh great can we like we'd love to you know monitor and gather the data and stuff so you can really see how it has just picked up it'd be like something that used to you know just be looked at as I don't know something eco whatever now they're like ah yeah it really makes sense like there's also there's an economic rationale behind trying to understand complex ecosystems so yeah perfect let's go so that's really beautiful and I'm actually really really grateful and happy for the partners that we have the KTBL the Juskun Institute and Leibniz Institutes there's really you know just great partners that help us gather some of the information and the data and to be honest with you even more so like we have so many initiatives now in Germany who do very similar things that we do and they also gather the data so I think that's really great because it's not just us it's like a lot of different cool and progressive initiatives in Germany that are looking in the same kind of philosophies and bringing different universities and different institutes into it also so I think there's a huge momentum also in the gathering of data and then of course which is like for us like a really strong focus is the question of what do we do with the data like what We need the data, of course, but then, you know, we still live in the 21st century. So where we really bring it together is when we now use that to actually develop software, to actually develop machines, to actually develop all of the things that we need in order to do scalable agriculture. I strongly believe that in the future, there will not be less people on the ground. There'll be more people on the ground just because of us realizing what agriculture actually is. But we still need to find ways that makes it economically feasible. We still need to find ways to have that being a work that is good for your health and not that you have a bad back after 20 years. So the machines and the technology is a potential to, of course, help us immensely, but it's not to keep perversing on an exploitative ecosystem only thinking blindly about yields. It's about... understanding the complex ecosystems and what we need in a specific area in a specific context to produce food that is not only good for the people and the people that work producing it but also kind with the animals and good for the ecosystem and thereby actually increasing the soil and growing biodiversity and and just being beautiful and

SPEAKER_00: 47:10

it tastes good

SPEAKER_01: 47:11

it tastes good yeah and i think that's really also the next big step people stepping in that are gifted in different areas and saying okay well okay I see a complex syntropic agroforestry system where we also do grain between the tree rows and then the cows come in and then the chickens come in and then we harvest berries from the systems okay that's the system I need to develop a technology for a software for okay perfect do you have some data yes all right let's go I think you know that's it's going to be beautiful

SPEAKER_00: 47:41

I think it's a perfect place to end I want to thank you so much for your energy and all the work you bring to the space and also for taking an hour this morning in your very very busy day you have to go to a TV shoot after this to talk to us and update a bit on what has been happening so thank you so much and we'll be checking in hopefully soon again

SPEAKER_01: 48:00

yeah thank you so much also for your very kind words which are really not you know I'm just the clown that talks about it but it's really the people out there and many others that should get the praise but likewise I want to thank you for all the work that you've done in the space and the amazing people that you bring together I think they're you know that energy is gonna get us quite far. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00: 48:22

I hope so. If you found the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast valuable, there are a few simple ways you can use to support it. Number one, rate and review the podcast on your podcast app. That's the best way for other listeners to find the podcast and it only takes a few seconds. Number two, share this podcast on social media or email it to your friends and colleagues. Number three, if this podcast has been of value to you and if you have the means, please join my membership community to Thank you so much and see you at the next podcast.