164 Adrian Ferrero on how giving farmers insights into the soil microbial community is key to regenerative agriculture

Adrian Ferrero is the co-founder of Biome Makers, a global AgTech company providing advanced technology for modeling soil functionality. They are on a mission to enhance the productivity of arable soils and recover soil health worldwide. Through their proprietary soil tech platform, BeCrop, they measure the biological quality of the soil and deliver agronomic insights to optimize farm operations and output.
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What are microbial communities and why are they so important for all us and especially if you are a farmer? Also, we can test all we want but how does it change our management? What should we change to get another outcome in a couple of months or at the ned of the growing season? 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

What are microbial communities and why are they so important for all of us? And especially if you're a farmer, knowing what's happening in your soils is crucial. But until recently, it wasn't very easy to look beyond the traditional nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium tests. And they don't tell the full story. Actually, far from that. It's way more interesting to look at the microbial activity and the microbial community in your soil. But then we can test all we want. But how does it change our management? How does it change what I'm doing tomorrow morning? And how do I get a different outcome in a couple of months or at the end of the growing season. That's what we unpack in this episode with the leading soil testing and interpretation company. Finally, let's say a relevant use of AgTech. Enjoy! Welcome to another episode of In March last year, we launched our membership community to make it easy for fans to support our work. And so many of you have joined as a member. We've launched different types of benefits, exclusive content, Q&A webinars with former guests, Ask Me Anything sessions, plus so much more to come in the future. For more information on the different tiers, benefits and how to become a member, check gumroad.com slash investingbridge.com. an egg or find the link below thank you Welcome to another episode, today with the co-founder of Biomakers, a global ag tech company providing advanced technology for modeling soil functionality. They are on a mission to enhance the productivity of arable soils and recover soil health worldwide. Through their proprietary soil tech platform, B-Crop, they measure the biological quality of the soil and deliver ergonomic insights to optimize farm operations and output. Welcome, Adrian.

SPEAKER_00: 2:08

Hey, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01: 2:13

And to start with a personal question we always love to ask, how do you did you end up founding or co-founding a global ag company, ag tech company? Are you from a farm? Are you from a lab? What made you start in this specific sector?

SPEAKER_00: 2:27

Well, as all entrepreneurial stories, this has been a long journey and a group of different situations that at the end of the day bring us to create Biomakers. We are the founders. We are originally from the northwest of Spain. We're a Agriculture is really important. But before jumping into the agriculture, we decided to start doing business together by leveraging the DNA sequencing technologies. And we opened the first genetic diagnostic center, specializing in hereditary diseases and using DNA sequencing for detecting the predisposition to certain diseases, mainly hereditary cancer. So

SPEAKER_01: 3:12

you started with human health, basically.

SPEAKER_00: 3:14

Human health. That is the point. So personalized medicine. And that was a very, very big thing, actually. But eventually we realized that there was a field very, very interesting. And there was a huge need in agriculture to utilize reliable bioindicators. And because we knew a lot about specifically communities of microbes that we were also analyzing for human health, we decided to sell the previous company. And we were lucky to be selected by the Illumina Accelerator Program in San Francisco, being the first non-American company selected by this corporate accelerator program. And that was the beginning of everything. We wanted to apply the personalized medicine concept into agriculture because there was a missing piece in agriculture, which is considering biological activities in the decision-making process.

SPEAKER_01: 4:11

It sounds very logical, but let's unpack it a bit because you could have run that company probably for quite a bit more. I mean, there's a lot to do in personalized medicine. There's a lot to do in health for sure. There's a lot to do in DNA sequencing there as well. I mean, you decided to sell, but it doesn't sound so obvious that you ended up in soil. Like, do you remember why when you and your co-founder started looking around, okay, what's the next sector to take on? Why agriculture was there? Is there a story there? Why you ended up looking at soil? You could also have looked at water or some other like animal health. or something else

SPEAKER_00: 4:43

yeah there is always a trigger and in this case there were two triggers one is connected to the entrepreneurial experiences nobody talked much about failure but in our case we were growing with the other company but we were not scaling and we realized that the health sector the industry the market our target market was not ready to really accept a technology developed by young people because there are so many white bear people in this sector.

SPEAKER_01: 5:12

You mean doctors.

SPEAKER_00: 5:14

Yeah. So it happens that even having a cheaper and more trustable solution to diagnose the dietary cancer predisposition, they were not open to buy it widely. And also we have an opportunity window that we realized that it was done. Other companies took over that space and that was the perfect moment to start looking for alternatives.

SPEAKER_01: 5:40

So you came to a second where there's also a lot of older, mostly white people managing land. So it's not much easier, I think. But anyway, sorry, what was the second trigger?

SPEAKER_00: 5:47

Yeah, being an entrepreneur is about challenging yourself and looking for the impossible. So the more difficult it is, the more challenging, the more fun it is. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 5:58

that's what you keep telling yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 5:59

Actually, there is a part of truth on that. We're risk-takers and we really enjoy that. Otherwise, what is the fun of life if you are not really posturing yourself but there was another trigger and that happened and we always tell this story we have a dinner in a city called Toro also very close to where we live or used to live in Zamora and we have dinner with winemakers and we were the weird guys you know doing genetics DNA sequencing we were featuring some newspapers and we started talking about their problems and they were like hey would you be able to tell us what are the microbes doing the fermentation we were like yeah sure but you know and actually we realized that they didn't know much about these interactions I mean there was really basic little knowledge about that and even the origin of the microbes fermenting the wine which is the vineyard they didn't have any source of data and that was the trigger that put us the focus on agriculture because also starting in vineyards was really smart because this industry this specific needs, they're really open to innovation. And because they are open to innovation, they will help us to develop and do the proof of concept. And in fact, that happened in winter 2014 when we were contacting different wineries and they sent us soil samples, grape samples, liquid samples. And we started playing with those samples to see if we could first profile the whole spectrum of microbes. And that was the beginning of everything. And with that idea, we went to the Illumina accelerator program. And after three months starting conversations with them, they invited us to join the accelerator in San Francisco. That was May 2015.

SPEAKER_01: 7:51

Wow. And so let's unpack the wine side a bit. So the microbes, you mentioned it casually, but the microbes from the soil, travel obviously into the wine and they trigger the fermentation or how important is it to know what's happening in the soil for a winemaker in the soil in the fermentation tank and then at the end what ends up in the wine

SPEAKER_00: 8:11

well if you think about the winemaking industry I mean it's one of the oldest industries beyond agriculture which is a little bit older but fermentation happens spontaneously when you smash crush the grapes so the origin of those yeast and bacteria, well, it should be somewhere. And there was a really interesting element in the wine sector that in Europe, people choose or pick the wine not based on the grape variety, but based on the location. So it's not the same as Champagne wine, Bordeaux wine, or any other area or region in Europe, or Italy, Spain. And On the other hand, in US, they pick the wine based on the grape variety. So they don't consider much the origin. And there are some specific flavors connected to the origin, to the terroir. And that was like, okay, so if we understand the origin of the wine, so those flavors, that would be amazing. What happens is once we dive deeper on this idea, we realize that the wine growers are facing different problems. It's not just on the fermentation side, but they face agricultural agronomic problem so then we started to really help them to solve those questions and also it happens that once you work on the agronomic dimension you can scale to any other crop

SPEAKER_01: 9:37

and so we're currently talking in let's say spring or late summer or late winter or winter 2022 it's a few years since 2015 which you mentioned where are you now in terms of biomakers and what are you i mean you're still working with wine but also many other things um let do an overview of where you currently stand and what you offer. Because you've come a long way, 70 people. I think you did a very serious series A. I mean, this is not a tiny startup in a scrappy garage anymore, or I don't know if it ever was, but it's definitely not tiny anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 10:10

Yeah. And this is a journey where you're understanding what is the highest value that you can provide with the technology that you are developing. So we started with the wine industry, develop a specific solution for the then called Winesick. That was the first product that we launched. We got resources from investors from the US and also from Europe, mainly business angels, that helped us to get there. And after launching the Winesick and starting getting traction, we wanted to really help other crops. And then we came up with this concept called B-Crop because it's not about the microbes that you have in the soil. It's about what they do in the same way that microbes help us to live, to digest food, to care, to protect our skin, all kinds of dimensions. In agriculture, it's pretty much the same. Microbes play a crucial role in everything related to plant growth. And the goal was to really go beyond the profiling and also provide a functional interpretation of this community of microbes.

SPEAKER_01: 11:23

Because it's nice to know what's the but then as a wine grower or any farmer, let's say I'm growing wheat, what do I do with that? Like, what should I, okay, I know now something, but what does it tell me? What should I do different tomorrow morning?

SPEAKER_00: 11:36

Well, soil has been always the dark boss where you throw something and some processes happen there. Because we've been doing this for many years, we assume that what is happening in the soil is natural, right? Identifying specifically all the pathways, and then measuring how active those pathways are, it's extremely useful for a grower, for a farmer to really improve the way they manage in terms of the spraying strategy, the inputs that they need to put into the soil, into the field. They need to use the risks that they have, the quality of the crops that they are going to get. And all these dimensions can be studied or identified through analyzing one of the most interesting bioindicators in nature, which is the community of microbes. But also from a dual perspective. So the microbes, each microbe has a potential to develop different functions, let's say, pathways. But when these microbes stay in a community context, in an ecosystem context, then they can play the role or not. And this is the ecological computing, the ecological intelligence that makes us unique. And understanding the functional dimension, but also the ecological relationships of the community, that's what brings us to the point where we are.

SPEAKER_01: 13:02

So you're saying that... studying one single microbe and understanding the different pathways is relevant, but understanding his or her or its role within an ecosystem where they can play the role or not is much more relevant because a single one in a lab isn't in his natural habitat, let's say. So it's maybe not going to activate that pathway or do the work we would like it to do because it's not part of the community. It's like there's a one plus one is three in that case, or one plus one is five or whatever the number is. Like we need to study them to and understand what triggers them, coming back to triggers, what triggers them to do certain things.

SPEAKER_00: 14:29

Exactly, yeah, and that is exactly the point. So understanding these ecological relationships is crucial. Let me just give you an example. If I ask you where is the place where you will find highest risk to get infectious diseases, you will be surprised that it's the place where the amount of pathogens in the environment is the highest. the lower, the smallest one, which is a hospital. A hospital just has little microbes, pathogens, but those pathogens, if they get into your body, then you have a serious problem.

SPEAKER_01: 15:04

They're dangerous. It's the most dangerous place there is, I think, and I seem to have said something like that. Obviously, if you're dying, go, but if you're at risk, but anything else, stay away from the place where it's been sprayed a lot. Most of the things are killed, and the ones that do survive could be very, very dangerous for you. And you're saying that's, I mean, taking the analogy to a field, the ones that have been sprayed heavily or worked heavily is potentially the most risky place. Is that what you're hinting to?

SPEAKER_00: 15:33

Could be, could be. So that's what we started to understand when we add these algorithms or develop the algorithms related to the ecological computing. We are applying, in a sense, the same technology. And this is what is magic today, that computing capabilities are amazing and there are many developments. that have been applied in other sectors as banking or even Facebook to anticipate, to predict what is the behavior of the people based on the connections or their community. So we are applying the same logic, this computing intelligence to really understand what are the correlations between the different microbes in the community and also the potential to develop different functions. And when we say functions, just for the audience to have some specific examples, we're talking about risk disease risks we are talking about stress adapters hormone producers and nutrient mobilizations in essence and of course providing an overall understanding on the biological status of the soil is also very interesting very useful

SPEAKER_01: 16:39

and so can you walk us through like a typical use case so a farmer growing what crop he or she would be growing how did they get analyzed do they have to send a number of soil samples how many how would a farmer go through a process where and he or she joins and becomes a customer of your company.

SPEAKER_00: 16:56

Yeah, the idea here is first to digitalize what is happening in the soil, what is the soil functionality, the status of the soil in a specific farm.

SPEAKER_01: 17:06

Do you get sort of a ranking then? Like, do you get, I'm okay, or I'm in green, or I'm actually yellow in certain areas?

SPEAKER_00: 17:13

Yeah, some people want to know that, but most of people come with specific questions. Those questions are, for instance, why this area has... lower yield than this other area and they are not able to identify the reason for traditional parameters so biology is going to probably give them the answer and we have plenty of examples of them then we have also many farmers that are transitioning to certain practices we know that now many people is moving into regenerative agriculture or greener agriculture you know different practices especially because of the prices of agrochemicals they are so high so they need to be smart and try different strategies and they want to monitor because at the end of the day this is a business and they want to monitor what is happening and to check if there is an improvement because by partnering with the biology of the soil then you can really save a lot of money in inputs because probably you don't need it and we have a really nice example in Brussels sprouts that we have a farmer and his agronomist was telling us hey I've done a physical chemical soil test to see the amount of phosphorus and potassium.

SPEAKER_01: 18:27

So physical chemical soil test is the normal, the standard traditional

SPEAKER_00: 18:31

test.

SPEAKER_01: 18:32

Exactly, the standard one.

SPEAKER_00: 18:33

And they measured the phosphorus and potassium and it was so high. And he didn't know what to do because the crop, the Brussels sprouts, were not performing so well. So he was like, oh, there is a disease, there is something. And at the end, what he had was a block in the metabolic pathway of the phosphorus and potassium mobilization so the microbes were not feeding the plant making that nutrient available while the nutrient was there so in order to improve and block it what they did is well first they stopped adding this fertilizer because they already have it so they save something like 20% and they use that money for a biological input to increase a biostimulant and to unlock that pathway way suddenly their yield increased by 8% so spending the same amount just doing a couple of tests in that specific field they knew what to do so this is the obvious outcome

SPEAKER_01: 19:36

and then the next year you I mean the fertilizer is still there the biostimulant maybe you need less or maybe you do a different one like you can go on a transition there exactly

SPEAKER_00: 19:45

yeah the idea is just to keep monitoring what is happening and well what we're providing is a digital tool at the end of the day

SPEAKER_01: 19:52

and so So a farmer is like this Brussels sprout farmer. How does the sampling work? How do I get measured for my field? Do I have to dig and send it? Like just for anybody that has never done soil sampling, how does it work in practice?

SPEAKER_00: 20:06

It's so easy. Usually what you do is you collect a little soil, a little spoonful of soil from different points all across the field, all across the block.

SPEAKER_01: 20:17

Do you need GPS data on that? Do you need some kind of localization?

SPEAKER_00: 20:21

You can have them depending on the sites we have a tool that will tell you specifically where you need to sample okay so but it does not usually they more or less know so

SPEAKER_01: 20:30

and that tool to tell me is based on satellite data or how do you tell me where to and you do sort of analysis of okay this is the minimum number of samples on this troubled field because usually i come with a question obviously like this field there's something wrong and you would tell me okay you need four spots more or less there to have a good understanding of what happens because then you extrapolate i'm imagining

SPEAKER_00: 20:51

exactly the idea is not to ask them to do so many tests I mean I wish they will do so many but just what they really need and the resolution of the data that they need to answer the question they have unless they want just to build a biomap of the field which is another question that they come and see these differences so they can start spraying more smartly now there are plenty of robots that will do precision spraying based on the prescription that you put on the robot so yeah the sampling process is easy you just go centimeters like 5 to 15 centimeters deep so you don't want surface you want to capture the community of microbes that is going to be more relevant in terms of providing information on what is happening in the field you average what is happening in that field you don't want one specific point at least three so you can have a good understanding what is the status of that field and you send the soil sample which is really small actually to one of our labs or partner labs and then the process the magic happens we profile the whole spectrum all the bacteria all the fungal species but what you get at the end of the day through an app or web portal is all the functional data to really make an action

SPEAKER_01: 22:44

and you mentioned there are quite a few of course that's what we're talking about in this podcast as well let's say on the regenerative journey or in a transition to cut maybe most of their inputs or replace them for some biological or integrating animals, et cetera, et cetera. What is an interesting example you have there from a farmer that is pushing the boundaries, let's say, of what's possible and is using you to monitor that and to make adjustments? Do you have a, I wouldn't say cool example, like an interesting example for the audience to share there?

SPEAKER_00: 23:13

Well, as you can imagine, there are plenty of weird and cool examples and different situations. Not all of them actually are positive. I mean, we're data providers and not everybody's happy with data that we provide or at least they don't get the data that way they expect and sometimes they challenge the technology and once you just start analyzing and you know trying to find why then they understand that okay now I get it so what I was thinking that it was good for my field actually is not as good as I was thinking that's one of the

SPEAKER_01: 23:44

I was hoping yeah as the company who was selling me this magic potion was promising me to do or my amazing compost might not be so amazing yeah it's quite confronting obviously if you go that deep

SPEAKER_00: 23:57

well that's one of the aspects that we started to work a last two one and a half year ago was a profiling the effect of the different inputs and the different practices because as you mentioned we're living in a very interesting momentum where we see so many biological inputs available and many startups many companies delivering new solutions into the market still there is room for there is many unsolved problems but the point is that there was no a way to really differentiate those inputs and this is crucial so by designing a proper analytic program we can really isolate what is the impact caused by the application of that specific input or the deployment of a specific farming practice and this is extremely useful because then you have on one hand let's say the diagnosis so you see what is the functional status of the soil and then you have profiled all the solutions that potentially could match that profile to improve and then by building predictive models on what is the most suitable product you can make a match making between a field and a solution and this is what we are working on our R&D side last year we did the proof of concept in potatoes with a specific biological and now we are testing other solutions to really hopefully release this tool this prescriptive tool for agronomist because otherwise it's going to be really difficult for them to identify what is the most interesting inputs for their clients

SPEAKER_01: 25:33

yeah because it really feels like the wild west at the moment of input companies i mean we get at the podcast obviously a very different position but we get approached a lot by input companies promising the stars and the moons and a lot more because their input is working on all crops is magical etc we usually don't profile them or don't interview them because it's very difficult exactly the problem you described to understand what is working and what is the noise between and what's the interesting piece because for sure one in ten is super interesting but most of them potentially are not and as we are not testing that at all we try to stay away from the input side of things I'm sorry for everybody listening that is running an amazing input company is simply because we cannot select or we cannot filter and I think for farmers that must be the same I mean they get approached every other day by this is going to change all your growing this is going to and it's quite expensive usually and it very often doesn't work because of the context or because of what is in it. So I think it's absolutely essential to start testing these things as we have done in the chemical space much more, but not necessarily on the input side. And of course, farmers are also making a lot of things or starting to make things themselves or applying things with neighbors, et cetera. And a lot of the time, the proof of the working isn't really there. So we need a lot of research there.

SPEAKER_00: 26:47

Exactly. So we wanted to become the independent company, the neutral company, providing data reliable insights on what are the effectivity patterns of each solution that is available into the market. We are helping those companies to really understand what is their market and what is their uniqueness.

SPEAKER_01: 27:08

So who is the client? The company or the farmer? The input manufacturer. The company is okay.

SPEAKER_00: 27:13

Yeah, actually we are working not as many with farmers. I mean, there are some of them that come dearly to us, but usually we work with retailers and agronomists because at the end of the day, they are the ones prescribing the solutions or the actions in the field in most of the cases and on the other hand we are working with input manufacturers currently we have like 80 companies testing their solutions their inputs with the B-Crop technology which is great because at the end of the day this is a great learning exercise for them to understand their solution to understand their market and also to provide functional claims that are have been verified externally because I mean agronomists and retailers and even the farmers they don't trust anymore the picture with the product without the product everybody's using that so you don't trust it anymore do you? what do you think? Photoshop

SPEAKER_01: 28:10

and Photoshop is good yeah no no I mean it's very I mean I remember what was it at Groundswell I think two or three years ago and there were a lot of stands and everybody promised like amazing results but of course to actually know like to actually show proof and to actually have some kind of independent party or company showing like the effectiveness on specific fields and crops because they're so different and it depends so much on your context and on your soil if something even can be effective so that's an extremely relevant thing do you have plans to bring that beyond potatoes

SPEAKER_00: 28:47

yeah actually we are doing it in most of the crops that are relevant right now we have a i would say something like 100 and 30 crops that are active in our database and we are testing close to 100 different solutions in different crops from coffee, bananas.

SPEAKER_01: 29:04

And what are the results? Are they potentially very, I mean, are some companies very disappointed when they see it? And how do you, are you going to share that? Do you share that publicly or you just not recommend them to farmers or agronomists?

SPEAKER_00: 29:18

No, actually, we're not sharing it publicly because we are doing this, let's say, for them to understand understand what is the impact of their inputs. The idea is that not far in the time we'll be able to tell a farmer if a specific solution is matching their field and is going to help them to increase the functionality, the performance of, in this case, the soil, being kind of automatic or data-driven prescription tool. This is what we're working in. But yeah, we don't share publicly unless the client wants to open it. And we have some papers, some publications that are available from different companies presenting the results that we use. And actually, many of our clients are using our results in their shows because now they see that it's a potential. And also, they are using the functional claims that we provide for registration purposes, which is also very interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 30:12

And where do you, like looking at that space of the input space, where do you get most excited or where are the biggest gaps? Like what are things that you see like nobody's working on that and somebody should?

SPEAKER_00: 30:22

Yeah, biostimulants and crop products. there I think we have a huge opportunity on biologicals there is some legislation that is evolving to make it well let's say more reliable whenever there is a registration of crop protection but what we see is certain solutions that are they have really multi approach or multi dimensional impact in the field so they stress the plant and they stimulate the plant and they unlock certain pathways that will increase the resistance of the plant and at the same time reduce the risk the natural the environmental risk on a specific disease so yeah yeah agriculture is becoming really complex so it's not just about feeding the soil anymore it's about a really looking from a multi-dimensional

SPEAKER_01: 31:15

approach and do you see some of your farmers that are let's say very advanced in terms of soil health and maybe use very little inputs from outside maybe make some of the brew some of their biofertilizer etc how are those soils are they extremely active like soils that don't need too much or are you mostly working with farmers that are on the journey somewhere and still need quite a bit of input

SPEAKER_00: 31:37

we work with all kind of farmers because let's say the standard classification of farmer is the conventional farmers at the end of the day they might be more or less reluctant on certain practices but they know that the biology is going to help them to increase the performance of the crop. So they want to really analyze and they really look at the cost structure, the efficiency, because they spend a lot in inputs and they expect a high efficiency on that cost. On the other hand, we have those more regenerative farmers. Some people look at them kind of hippie style, but it's far from there. They are data geeks. They get really serious. They test all kind of ideas and some of them work really well and others not as much. For instance, cover crops is a really hot topic right now, especially in regenerative agriculture, but what we've seen is that not all the cover crops work in the same way. Some of them are really positive for the field, for the crop, for the soil and others are not as positive because at the end of the day, any action that you do in the field, you are making an intervention, you are specializing the community, driving the community in a certain direction. And the idea is that we could control that direction better right now while we are in the experimental stage.

SPEAKER_01: 33:05

And I mean, it's very interesting, like the, the, the type of cover crop, like always, it's not, I mean, the tree could help, but it depends how, or the animal could help, but it definitely depends how, and now it seems like the cover crop could help, but it definitely depends how have you seen that? Like there's an effect of complexity. So if they are very, I mean, we can steer microbes, obviously, or the community in a certain direction. But if you have a very, very diverse, I mean, you hear the gurus in the space, like the Gabe Browns, et cetera, like they go for 15 or 20 types because simply they maybe don't do this analyzation and they don't know which one will work. So they just do as many as possible. And by that, let's say, have the microbe community to be as diverse as possible. Is that complexity versus simplistic approach? Is that something you've seen? Like the more diverse, the better? Or can you do with research, actually select the three cover crop types you need to actually push the soil? It's a very big, difficult question. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 33:58

Yeah, well, this is a really tricky question because it's generally accepted that a higher abundancy or diversity of microbes is better for the agriculture. And if you think about sustainability versus productivity, there is probably some conflicted interest or relationship. So not always a higher... diversity means a higher yield. But you can find a really resilient and diverse community of microbes developing different functions. So a certain level of specialization of that community that is going to make the field really productive, or let's say a level that is reasonable and feasible from the economical point of view for the farmer, and at the same time is going to be positive from the environmental point of view. Now everybody talks about changing or turning carbon emissions carbon intensive agriculture into carbon sequestration agriculture or carbon capturing agriculture this is possible and we can get a really high yield performance on the crop and at the same time sequester carbon that's possible but by looking at the diversity of microbes is not the best indicator it's not always the best indicator

SPEAKER_01: 35:16

now it's very interesting I think there's a natural focus of the ag community until now for yield yield yield yield yield without asking the question of what it actually costs to get that yield meaning input we would never ask that question to a factory like okay you have a bike factory and how many bikes can you push out you say no i can push like a hundred thousand per week if i do three shifts and i i run on diesel generators and i i push my people to the end but my cost will be close i mean it will be close to break even and probably would lose a bit of money and and in agriculture the only thing where you look at that yield and very hardly we push like okay what's what's the yield instead of actually what's the cost and the yield and you You're saying there is an optimum in many places where you might not have the absolute best yield of the area, but you have way lower costs and way more resilience in your soil and potentially also storing carbon and a lot of other yield, let's say. But pushing only for the yield number is probably not the best proxy for a success of a farm or a success of a field.

SPEAKER_00: 36:14

That's right. That's right. But agriculture has received the pressure to be the one delivering food for the whole planet. And that pressure is increasing. So they have to deliver food Of course, of course. That's what we expect. But that practice that you mentioned has taken away one third of the arable soil because of the intensity. So probably we could have done things in a different way. And now is the moment to really start playing and understanding this. In 2020, just before the pandemic, we launched an initiative called Fields Forever to provide open access to our technology to researchers and those farmers doing... experiments with the target of understanding soil health or to see what is happening. And so far we have supported more than 200 initiatives globally in different countries. And if you see the outcomes from those initiatives, some of them are really small. It's an individual farmer who is testing something specific and we saw that, okay, this is a very innovative approach. We want to support your initiative. And others are researchers that have really large projects to understand the differences the characteristics of the soil in different latitudes for instance and all the results all the conclusions coming from there at the end take us to the point that hey now we have data we have tools it's the moment to really evolve the way we farm keep it productive even recover soil this is something we are working in certain areas with certain companies like the desert in peru So you can turn desert soil into arable soil. And that's extremely interesting because you increase the value of the land and at the same time you make it productive in terms of agriculture. So that's also possible. We just need to plant it and use the tools in a good way. there are a lot of options out there.

SPEAKER_01: 38:15

There's a lot of work to do. Now, I had to think of when you mentioned the specific microbes a bit back. I will link the interview below, the one we did with Dan Barber, who was mentioning, Chef Dan Barber, who was mentioning he found, or one of his breeders, because he's very much into seeds and genetics, one of his breeders found a type of corn that was fixing its own nitrogen and absorbed, of course, with microbes because they never do it by themselves, but only did that in healthy soils or very abundant. So, we've never seen it in practice until somebody decided by accident probably to plant because it's a feeder corn it's not even meant for us to eat but he said i really want to cook with it i want to see it because it's been and i want to test it as well on the nutrient density but it only expressed this quality when it was put into a diverse microbial soil where these microbes were actually able to feed the nitrogen to that without having the need of the fertilizer and not because this is perfect but it just opened my eyes at least like the amount of things we don't know yet like the amount of possibilities here the amount of plants that have not expressed something that they could because they are planted in not the right type of soil or the right type of field or the soil is not adapted to them or the microbes are simply not there or the microbes are blocked to actually provide this to them like the amount of possibilities here on yield but also on quality are probably endless because we've blocked so many of these pathways by spraying and by input rightfully so because we needed to fix for hunger i mean we've done that we've produced way more food at the in the wrong places most of the time, and we throw away 30 to 40%. And so, but it's not a question of can we produce the quantity, but it's a question, how do we produce the quantity and how do we produce what we actually need ourselves to, no, actually not, what we need to feed our microbes in ourselves to stay healthy. So it's a very interesting opening up of pathways, I think. And what do you, I mean, it feels like we're early and not early at the same time in this transition. What would you tell, obviously, I always have to say without giving investment advice, but what would you tell smart investors that are listening to this show or if we would, I like to say the last few months I've been saying it a lot, if we would be in a theater and we do this on stage. So we're both sitting on stage, we have a nice microphone, it's a nice old theater full of interesting and interested people and they walk out after hearing this conversation, they've asked some questions and what would you tell them to do the next morning? Where should they start looking? Is that the bio-stimulants that you mentioned or is it something completely different? Where would you push them to build things and invest in things?

SPEAKER_00: 40:38

Well, actually, if you look at the trends I think we are going in the right direction there is a lot of room for opportunity for new solutions new inputs biologicals out there and still new solutions to come so I will encourage to really take a science driven approach on anything that is looking at or what they are assessing but really looking at those solutions because that could be very important and relevant for the future and for the industry and will bring some returns also closing the loop from everybody talks about farm to fork but I think still there is a distance between the farmer and all the distribution channels and the consumer so probably bringing or making smaller these gaps is going to be very interesting technologies working in that field I would say those are relevant and needed and you see every day that when you go to the supermarket you are buying some fruit that has been packaged somewhere in the world and has been produced at the other side of the world. So probably, independently of the cost, we can do it really cost-effective and closer. So those technologies, I think, are really, really relevant. And then carbon, I think, is a really extreme good opportunity and there is a lot of homework to be done. We are not there yet on measuring or getting a good estimation on what is happening in the field in terms of the amount of carbon that we sequester or the bioactivity that is happening around the carbon.

SPEAKER_01: 42:16

How is that connection between the soil microbial activity and the carbon capture? Is it something you see? Is it something you say, we see it, but we don't fully understand it? How far are we in that from your perspective of analyzing so many soil samples?

SPEAKER_00: 43:07

Well, there are people really trying to get a good understanding. So right now, most of the tools either measure the biomass, the plant biomass in turn of carbon and also based on certain practices they make an estimation of the carbon

SPEAKER_01: 43:24

the model

SPEAKER_00: 43:25

yeah which is an estimation probably is not as accurate we could do better that's the point and nobody is looking at the microbial biomass

SPEAKER_01: 43:33

which is the one that's carbon yeah that's where the carbon is

SPEAKER_00: 43:37

exactly and there is also a transfer in terms of carbon in the soils or release and capturing and understanding what is the total capacity and the long-term storage capacity and the processes I think there is room for that and then enabling a mechanism to reward those farmers that are really helping I think this is going to be very interesting from the public entities because right now we see all the governments supporting agriculture and probably we can design some mechanism to compensate those farmers that will go straight from the polluters to those not polluting and also in agriculture turning from a carbon intensive agriculture to a carbon sequestering agriculture I think that's a is

SPEAKER_01: 44:20

it something you see yourself moving into not the credit side but the testing side is it something that actually is possible with the tests you're doing now like that capacity of soil carbon capture which is different than the actual carbon captured obviously but that capacity because it's so closely linked to microbial activity or that's like a next generation of tests that you need to like the labs you're using is that something you can or it's not there yet or you decided to not look into that yet

SPEAKER_00: 44:47

microbes are going to provide a part of the data that we need to make that estimation. But the good thing is that the rest of the data is already available because there are plenty of data sources. So actually, we're working on getting an estimation. But again, everything we do at Biomakers is science proof or has to be validated somehow. We should be able to demonstrate that this is something you can trust, that is reliable. And that's the reason because we haven't jumped in. Under the Fields Forever, we're supporting some projects that are working in this specific direction. We want to first understand what are the carbon dynamics in the soil, and then we are correlating this with the carbon models to estimate the carbon sequestration. And this is how we're getting a good understanding of the amount of soil, the dynamics of the carbon in agriculture, and eventually we'll be able to connect the value of our test or our digital solution with an estimation of the carbon. And then for sure, there should be some certifications mechanism that will work with other companies. We are really an open innovation entity. We love collaboration and we know that we cannot change the world by ourselves. So that's the reason because we embrace partnerships.

SPEAKER_01: 46:00

And where do you see this, the soil testing market go in terms of, is it currently accessible for all farmers? I mean, you mentioned obviously your fields forever process, but in terms of costs, this is one of the classical technical exponential cost curve that just keeps going down. Or is this lab that you're using that might be yours or a partner lab like you mentioned like those costs are sort of fixed and it's maybe the the software part that comes after that that could get that could scale and does get cheaper like where do you see this is this going to be something that we just do all the time that's completely like i don't know like fast as we currently do in covid like that that cost curve where do you see that going for the market or where do you in your company

SPEAKER_00: 46:41

well there are obviously a economies of scale with this new market because this is a new market that we are are building and we are pushing and we are also how leading as well cost is not a barrier for farmers to adopt it because they see the value on that and it's not just getting data that are cool it's about really getting efficiency on whatever you are spending you mentioned the cost structure in the farms keep in mind that the fertility the efficiency of fertility chemical fertilization is around 30% meaning that if you throw one kilo of agrochemicals just 30 100 grams will go into the plants what happened with the race that's a lot of money that you are pouring there now so probably if you start playing with the biology you can save a lot of money increase the efficiency and i have a higher yield so the value that you get is always higher than the cost otherwise it doesn't make sense and we also have promised that we'll fix the the price but we'll keep adding features to our solutions as we know more and more on what is happening in the community and how this community of microbes impact because again it's not about the microbes it's about a what is happening in the field and we use the community of microbes as a by indicator so this if we want to really understand soil health we have to measure the life in the soil and the life in the soil are the microbes populating the soil

SPEAKER_01: 48:16

and that's a nice bridge to a question i was like to ask definitely inspired by john kemp but where are you contrarian what do you believe to be true about regenerative agriculture and maybe agriculture as a whole where others others don't agree with you like where are you different we've heard a few things but what would be the central piece if you i mean like now like when i'm asking that question

SPEAKER_00: 48:36

yeah so i already mentioned that the many people who consider regenerative agriculture and small thing and let's decide what i think should not happen is that we consider regenerative agriculture as another group of farmers so conventional organic and regenerative no something like that no actually this is bigger and they're data geeks and that's what I realized and they're really big farms which

SPEAKER_01: 49:03

is great for you

SPEAKER_00: 49:05

yeah yeah actually sadly and they're helping us to really understand because they give us feedback they give us a shared data as well because they want to know they're really eager and they use a lot of rationality behind any experiment they do so it's not random that I'm going to put some cover crop or I'm not going to till no they actually do something in a certain direction they consider it's going to be positive for their activity their visibility their financials and then they test it and if that works they keep doing it and then they share it that's also it's an open community and many corporations are also looking at this so I say this is not something small it's something growing and And this is not random. It's really data-oriented practices and a crowd knowledge that we are sharing. So I love that. And I think this is a great starting point to change or to evolve. Let me say to evolve the way we are farming today.

SPEAKER_01: 50:05

And how important is that openness and let's say the open data movement for this movement? I mean, you mentioned it's very important, but for a company like yours in soil sampling, does it play a role at all? We just recorded and hopefully it will be online beforehand here, or otherwise it will be just after on open data in satellite imagery and a lot of soil. And there it seems to be very fundamental because a lot of this data comes from public entities like NASA, like ASA, and we all paid for that. So it's very nice to be able to actually use that and to keep it open. How important is that? Does it play a role at all in the soil side of things like the soil sampling side, or do you see it potentially playing a role in the future? As you see that these growers are sharing and they will benefit if others are sharing. And if everybody shares, then like the tool's get better

SPEAKER_00: 50:49

yeah we have to share knowledge and everything we learn from the soil has to be shared for others to learn and what we have as a company for sure we have our IP which is how we understand or what is the logic to really develop certain results and beyond data privacy and confidentiality there are certain dimensions that you can open or disclosure so what is if you think crop by crop or region by region there are certain incidences that is going to help all the farmers to do better so yeah opening data and working with researchers really thing that is key and that's what help humans to go ahead and be sure that we have something to share in the future

SPEAKER_01: 51:33

and something to eat yeah

SPEAKER_00: 51:34

or to enjoy and also to eat

SPEAKER_01: 51:37

if there would be one thing like you have a magic wand what would you change overnight could be anything it could be global consciousness could be solar I mean it doesn't have to be in food and ag and doesn't have to be in soil sample but if you had the magic power to change one thing overnight what would you change tomorrow morning

SPEAKER_00: 51:54

wow unlimited power but only one only one only one well mindsets I will put everybody in collaborative mode we know that we want to enjoy our own life in the way we really think is the right way to enjoy our time but collaborate is important positive thinking in that way so it wouldn't be something material it would be more like less team up and have a common goal and there are people with this mindset but I think we need more.

SPEAKER_01: 52:25

Completely agree and switching to maybe less collaborative as well like what would you do if you would be in charge of a large investment fund could be let's say a billion dollars or billion euros and you definitely have to put it to work as an investment but it could be a very long term one could be bringing back the desert in Peru if you wanted to but I'm not asking this as a question to understand exactly to the euro what you're going to invest in but i'm interested in your priorities like what would you prioritize if you would no longer be running a biomakers but you would be running this investment fund full-time i'm imagining you would look at agriculture but it could also be something else what would you how would you put it to work and what would you be the main the main sectors in terms of priority

SPEAKER_00: 53:08

that's also interesting well uh thinking about the imagine i've been thinking about agriculture mainly for the last 10 years and i really focus on this so everything I'm reading about is either how to grow the startup how to scale up or how to have a deeper impact but there is no magic formula I mean looking at what people with a lot of money is doing I will try to not control but push and update the productive means especially the soil I will say I will buy land to care for the land to avoid land destruction to plant more forests that's another thing I think we need more forests for sure and we need more arable land and if I have that amount of money probably I will try to do that impact but many people with billionaires with billions are already doing that kind of strategy and that's on the agricultural side and I think with that will be enough for one billion

SPEAKER_01: 54:14

yeah and where would you do it like would you choose because you're saying many already do And if you look at like neglectedness, like places where that billion could make a huge difference, would that be like on the edge of where the desert is coming in or where land is desertifying? Would you do some edgy things in terms of, I don't know, some tropical agroforestry? How would you make sure it has that impact you want to see compared to somebody that maybe has a hundred billion and is buying up half of Texas or something like that? How would you make sure it's edgy and interesting and not boring? Because that's how we sort of started this conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 54:46

Really a standard investment strategy diversity so I will do a piece of not very innovative or risk-taking I will for sure prevent the certification of certain areas as you mentioned climate change is moving ahead and impacting and we see this

SPEAKER_01: 55:05

also in Spain

SPEAKER_00: 55:06

yeah yeah we see this winter there is certain parts of the world where rain is really making problems while for instance you mentioned Spain this has been extremely dry winter so I don't know how spring is going to be but this is going to have an impact for sure on the performance of agriculture so probably trying to preserve and boost or let's say adapt the land into these new conditions that will be something that will be very rewarding for me on the return point of view that well I'm a bachelor in economic science so I always have to think about the profitability I don't think it's the most profitable one the There is a lot of markets that have volatility, but no, I really will do that. If I have one billion, I will really commit to some kind of impact strategy on sustainability, land. agriculture nature these kind of things I think we need that

SPEAKER_01: 56:05

super thank you so much and thank you so much for your time and sharing first of all your journey because it's been a journey the last seven years or eight years now and also the progress and what we need in in the magic the magic world but also the science driven world of soil testing and soil and microbes and the microbial communities

SPEAKER_00: 56:24

perfect and pleasure being here and anytime you need any insight about what is happening in the soil happy to share it with all of you.

SPEAKER_01: 56:31

Perfect. I will definitely put the details below in the show notes if you want to get in touch with you and if you want to get your soil tested. Perfect. If you found the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast valuable, there are a few simple ways you can use to support it. Number one, rate and review the podcast on your podcast app. That's the best way for other listeners to find the podcast and it only takes a few seconds. Number two, share this podcast on social media or email it to your friends and colleagues. Number three, if this podcast has been of value to you and if you have the means please join my membership community to help grow this platform and allow me to take it further you can find all the details on gumroad.com slash investing region egg or in the description below thank you so much and see you at the next podcast