175 Jaclyn Schnau, the success and health of our society starts in the pregnant belly

Jaclyn Schnau, co-founder of Pumpkin Organics, joins us to talk about the shocking reality of baby food. An episode diving deep into baby nutrition during the first 1000 days and the reasons why the current baby food industry really needs a shake-up.
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Why are we feeding children and mothers so badly? The first foods for babies shouldn't be fruit but should be vegetables, bitter things, maybe a bit acidic. They might not love it immediately, but they need to be exposed to it to learn how to eat it later, to be healthy and become the non-picky eaters we all need.

More about this episode on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/jaclyn-schnau.

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Chapters

• 2:26 Why are you doing what you are doing? Why baby food?
• 13:51 What is wrong with current baby food
• 35:06 The one thing you would change with a magic wand
• 45:05 What should smart investors, who want to invest in disruption of baby food do?
• 49:32 What would you do if you were in charge of a 1B investment portfolio tomorrow morning?
• 59:40 What do you believe is true about baby food that others don’t?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

The success and health of our society starts in the pregnant belly. So why are we feeding children so badly and mothers as well? The shocking reality of baby food, even in the premium organic house, over 90% of the food you find is fruit puree, apple, pear and banana. Of course, organic, but still sugar nonetheless. And there's no scientific backing for that at all. The first foods of babies shouldn't be fruit at all, but should be vegetables, things that are bitter, maybe a bit acidic. Of course, they might not love it immediately, but they know to be exposed to it, to learn how to eat it later and to become the non-picky eaters we all need and to become healthy. This is an episode where we dive deep into baby nutrition and the first thousand days and why the current baby food industry really, really needs a shake-up. This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast, investing as if the planet mattered, where we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Why my focus on soil and regeneration? Because so many of the pressing issues we face today have their roots in how we treat our land and our sea, grow our food, what we eat, wear and consume. And it's that we as investors, big and small, and consumers start paying much more attention to the dirt slash soil underneath our feet. To make it easy for fans to support our work, we launched our membership community. And so many of you have joined us as a member. Thank you. If our work created value for you, and if you have the means, and only if you have the means, consider joining us. Find out more on gumroad.com slash investing in RegenAg. That is gumroad.com slash investing in RegenAg. Or find the link below.

UNKNOWN: 1:51

you

SPEAKER_00: 1:56

Welcome to another episode today with Jacqueline Snou, the co-founder of Pumpkin Organics. And we're going to dive deep into baby food and what's the role of nutrition there, science, a lot of folklore, I think, and why and how it's such a pivotal moment for many people in terms of food, in terms of nutrition, in terms of food choices as well. So I'm very, very happy to unpack that and a lot more today. Welcome, Jacqueline.

SPEAKER_01: 2:23

Thank you. It's such a great pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00: 2:26

And to start with that personal question we always like to throw at people first, how did you end up working on and co-founding a baby food company?

SPEAKER_01: 2:35

Yeah, I get this question all the time. People just assume I have a baby or I had a baby and, oh, I didn't like what was in the market. But that's not

SPEAKER_00: 2:44

it at all. Because I think many people do that and then they don't start a baby food company. Otherwise, we would have millions and millions of baby food companies. I mean, many people maybe sort of start a baby food company in their kitchen for a while and then transition to other things in a very small scale. In this case, there's a different story behind it.

SPEAKER_01: 3:01

Yeah, so I've been in the food industry, the commercial food industry, almost my entire professional life. And I was

SPEAKER_00: 3:09

so excited. Sorry, but you're still in the commercial food industry. Yeah, true, true. It's interesting when people say that the intensive, I say, yeah, but you can do intensive differently. I hope this is commercial. Otherwise, we will be talking to a nonprofit, which is also fine, but that was not the intention. It's very interesting how we frame that.

SPEAKER_01: 3:23

Yeah, okay. You know, for me, the commercial food industry are these big guys that are driven by lobbyists and driven by Wall Street expectations that actually are not driven by purpose or fancy marketing claims or that have gigantic research and consumer insight budgets that are actually doing this with their own purpose and passion and funding. And also really, you know, I've got almost all of my friends and family invested in pumpkin. So if I don't make this work, I'm going to have a very lonely Christmas dinner coming up

SPEAKER_00: 3:55

At least you have a lot of food.

SPEAKER_01: 3:58

Yeah, true. At least we will have a lot of food. You know, the reality is I really entered the big food company with a vision that I was going to change nutrition, that I was going to change and have an impact on the way we grow food, the way we serve food, the way food integrates into family. And that's not how it works. I was so amazed. It works by what your manager, manager, manager, manager says from plans one to two years ago. It's driven by, like in the US where I started, by lobbyists and Wall Street. We were incentivized by cutting out real aspects of nutrition because the customer didn't maybe value it so we could put something cheaper in or do it a more economical way. Do you have

SPEAKER_00: 4:46

an example of that? Maybe the most shocking one or just the one or the first one that triggered like, whoa, we switched this for this and just from a nutrition or taste perspective? It doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_01: 4:58

I had a couple trigger moments in my few years of the starting that made me say, okay, I'm in this, but I'm going to make massive change or I have to switch because it's against every fundamental value. And one was a very standard boxed meal product in the US where the middle class, it's a billion dollar brand. And it had real cheese powder in it, one of the only real components of nutrition in it. And they did consumer testing and they realized that it was the taste of the cheese. It wasn't the nutrition of the cheese. So they took the real cheese out and put a synthetic flavoring in. So basically it was about shipping air in a box that had worse than air. Yeah, worse than air. And this was the person was put on a stage and celebrated at our annual meeting that they truly understood consumer insight and they drove massive cost savings to the company, which were both true. Absolutely Absolutely true. But I just, I had a feeling in my stomach and more importantly, like my brain. that there's no connection to what the food industry offers. And that was the first trigger. So that's, yeah, this

SPEAKER_00: 6:33

is not- And then- Why and how? I mean, I understand the why really well, but what was the trigger to start focusing on that first 1,000 days or the first baby set? Because you clearly mentioned in the beginning, it wasn't because we were in the kitchen trying to figure out what to feed our child. And no, there's a more rational, and it's also very rational actually, but a different why you started with this. And of course, your plans are much bigger than the first, let's say, period we are eating food that is not like potentially breast milk or milk in general. Why did you focus on that first 1000 days? Is that science driven again? What insight came there?

SPEAKER_01: 7:16

Absolutely. So I come from the middle of Canada in Saskatchewan, which is one of the biggest farmlands in the world. My father is a chemistry professor fully dedicated to the farm industry. And so I grew up before, you know, just learning to walk and talk, but also learning about the chemistry of food. And I on soil and growing. So I knew there was a better way to do things. I didn't know where this knowledge would come into my life or where I would need it later on. But growing up with the excitement of seeing your tomato plant grow because you put eggshells that you had kept all year and then made this calcium phosphorus distillation, or we put Coke on the one beside it. So we studied the impact of sugar on just life, let alone growth. As a young child, I I had this inside of me that there was something wrong with

SPEAKER_00: 8:08

sugar. You were doing these experiments basically in your back garden with your father. Completely. Our garden

SPEAKER_01: 8:12

was a lab.

SPEAKER_00: 8:13

The lab, it was amazing. Side by side experiments. What was the shocking one? I mean, sugar for tomatoes sounds interesting, but basically you made ketchup. What was that?

SPEAKER_01: 8:23

Completely, yes. But it was really the impact of sugar. And of course, my father knew all of this, right? He's a chemistry professor focused on all of this. And for me, it was fascinating to see this innocent little white powder that is in everything. And okay, I'm 43. So take back a few years. Nobody questioned putting sugar on everything. Nobody questioned anything on proper nutrition at this time.

SPEAKER_00: 8:48

Which was very interestingly framed back in the day. If you go back, if you want to go into the conspiracy rabbit hole, like the whole fat versus sugar and how sugar became the issue and not fat with some very interesting lobbying. I'm laughing about it, but actually it's horrible. And very interesting lobbying for from certain industries. And now we're starting to see sugar is driving a lot of this. It's sugar,

SPEAKER_01: 9:12

it's not fat.

SPEAKER_00: 9:13

It's sugar, it's not fat, which is very interesting. I mean, you saw already that even on like adding sugar to soil, fascinating.

SPEAKER_01: 9:20

Yeah, yeah. And you saw it because even the soil changed its molecular structure. It changed its pH level. It changed its, you know, viscosity level. Again, as a young child, you don't know what all of this means, but you saw the change. And I think And that's the important part also that you see it and you can be part of it. And you taste it. Yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And that was the other thing. We put it on carrots and it made no taste. And actually the carrots didn't grow as big. So it's like the tomatoes collapsed when we put the Coke on it. But when we had our carrot row and one row, instead of just digging the seeds, we put little sugar cubes in the bottom. They didn't grow as much. They were smaller. Now, I don't know any cause and effect on this, but as a child, these are the images that stayed with me for a lot. And even now drive a lot of the choices I make on how we look at the food company.

SPEAKER_00: 10:13

And then how did you end up finding, founding a baby food company in Germany? Because you're the middle from, from farmland in Canada. That's, that's literally culturally distance wise, pretty far.

SPEAKER_01: 10:26

Yeah. The other side of the world. But I met my husband doing my, we did our MBAs at Harvard together and he's German. And, And after business school, we moved to Europe and then we wanted to settle either Canada or Germany and Munich came up. And I just think the city is amazing and beautiful and really based on an outside way of living. So I said, yeah, let's go for it. And we love the choice. And this is really one of the fundamental beginnings of Pumpkin. I was working here and just feeling extremely down, no energy, for years. I went to numerous doctors, like from TCM to, you know, Ayurvedic to traditional, and nobody solved, could solve what was happening. And this is one of the most frustrating aspects is people don't take general aches and pains in the body seriously. They just think, oh, you're too stressed, you're working too hard, blah, blah, blah, every excuse under the sun. Anyways, after a couple years, I was finally correctly diagnosed with Hashimoto's. And this, I I left my job and I put the entire rigor and my passion for everything into solving Hashimoto's or an autoimmune condition with food. You can't stop autoimmune, but you can slow it down and you can change the trajectory of how it's going to work in your body. And this is where I started one of the benefits of having a network like the Harvard Network, as I called some of the most amazing doctors in the world. And I gave them these challenges. I wanted to solve this with food. And food means also how do we grow the food? How do I get the right nutrients out of the food? Because one of the biggest issues of our society is we eat food with a quarter of the nutritional value that our parents and grandparents

SPEAKER_00: 12:18

eat. If this sounds shocking to you, go and Google. There's some very interesting research recently, and not so recent actually, but there seems to be a wave now around this. And just a small spoiler alert, we're going to do a series on nutrient density and the connection to soil health and management. And I'll put a paper in the show notes below of David Montgomery and his wife, Anne, who we'll hopefully have on the show soon as well, that really connected. But there's so much more research connecting what we do to the soil and what happens to our body once we eat what came out of that soil, basically.

SPEAKER_01: 12:54

Completely. And so I started really studying this and then working with the head of the nuclear medical clinic here in Munich. He doesn't have a lot of... belief in nutrition, but he cannot believe the change I made. And so we've been working together for years now. And so many people just said, Jacqueline, you've got to put this knowledge and passion into a company now. And I said, okay, but I'm going to find a way that I can really make an impact because at this stage of my life, it's not about a paycheck. It's not about building my CV. It's about actually producing a legacy of change. And

SPEAKER_00: 13:29

what made you change there or not change, but sort of the logical steps seems or seems looking back at targeting that autoimmune disease or targeting helping others with the same to go through that process, et cetera, et cetera. But you said no, or maybe yes as well, but the company is going to be focusing on baby food or on the first thousand days.

SPEAKER_01: 13:50

Because when you want to tackle a problem, you go to the beginning and the beginning is the baby. And I didn't know there was a problem in baby food, right? We didn't have a child at this point. I wasn't focused on this industry. I knew the You

SPEAKER_00: 14:04

heard your friends complaining about it maybe, but it's sort of one ear in, one ear out. People

SPEAKER_01: 14:09

complain about everything. So it wasn't like the trigger wasn't there. And I went and I thought, okay, easiest from the beginning. I went to the shelf of a big retailer here and I literally had tears in my eyes. When I saw what was on the shelf, I could not believe that this was the offering in one of the wealthiest, most educated, resource rich, any positive adjective you can give countries in the world. And we were giving children 200 jars, 200 pouches, where 85% of the contents were apple, pear, and banana, a pure-aid fruit. And there is nothing in science that says this is the right way to start children's nutrition.

SPEAKER_00: 15:00

And if

SPEAKER_01: 15:00

there is, this doctor should be fired because he has no idea about nutrition.

SPEAKER_00: 15:05

It's really shocking. It's really

SPEAKER_01: 15:07

shocking.

SPEAKER_00: 15:08

If you have children, I mean, you've looked at this for sure if you're listening to this. If you don't, just next time you're in a supermarket or in any shop that sells, just look at the ingredients Just go. Turn the package over. Your jaw will be on the floor. I promise you. Okay. So you saw that and were like, whoa. Yeah. And I just said,

SPEAKER_01: 15:24

this is it. This is now my life's mission. I'm going to change the trajectory of children's health by changing the children's food industry.

SPEAKER_00: 15:32

And so why is that, that it's filled with those three ingredients or mainly apple, honestly, and banana?

SPEAKER_01: 15:39

It's

SPEAKER_00: 15:39

economics. It's the same what we discussed previously. Let's replace it with something sweet or let's replace it with the cheapest, in some cases, organic ingredient, but still doesn't mean babies should eat. But organic sugar is still

SPEAKER_01: 15:52

sugar.

SPEAKER_00: 15:53

It's not the first thing they should eat, smashed apples. And so what does the science say there, actually? What are the first things we all, when we get to food, should start nibbling on or should start tasting?

SPEAKER_01: 16:08

You know, I'm not a vegetarian, but every child should start on vegetables. A child can definitely have Okay, don't get me wrong. But if you're going to eat fruit, the fructose in that fruit, if you don't have the fiber from the whole food, it goes completely into the body as glucose, and it's not used as energy, it's stored in the body. So that's one aspect. The second aspect is, our brains are formed in this first 1000 days, 80% of the brain is formed. So just think about how quickly a child like when you had your little one and our little one, like how quickly they learn to walk and talk, and play and replicate everything you do, the learning curves are vertical. And it's the same with food. And the food is even worse because there is a chemical reaction in the body, in the brain, that when you put that pureed fruit in and sweetness, the brain says, oh, wow, yum, I want more of this. I'm going to crave more of it. I'm going to reject the bitter or the sour aspects of food, which you need to develop the taste palette on. I want this fruit or this bland flavoring. And so not only is it not providing the proper nutrition and giving way too much sugar into these tiny bodies but it is actually training unhealthy eating habits that the child then will develop further and further

SPEAKER_00: 18:18

so this sugary like trigger that we all notice is where as our adults etc is is formed or already starts when you're super super small and we need to we need to expose small ones at all the different flavors they are which many are bitter many are acidic and many are sour and many are and we need to and you're saying this first I've even read first few months when you start eating also the allergy discussions on nuts expose expose expose to all the different ones and not go for for fruity sugary etc and so that dependency is So what is the alternative there? Like you started a company, like you just blend all the veg, like how do we make sure we grow children? That sounds really wrong. We grow children into healthy eaters. Like what's that crucial, is that the full diversity just like in soil? Is it the exposure to things? Is it the playing with it as well in a sense like it should be not a war but a pleasure?

SPEAKER_01: 19:21

No, but you got to be ready for a battle. Of course. I mean, evolution of our brains is that when we take is bitter or sour, we think it's poison, right? That's the evolution of humanity with taste. So you cannot eliminate completely that the baby doesn't understand, oh, bitter or sour, but it can be trained like everything we do. And even here in Germany, the Midwife Association even says a new taste, a new food takes eight to 10 to 12

SPEAKER_00: 19:49

times to be introduced. So keep going, don't give up, don't give up. Don't give up,

SPEAKER_01: 19:54

right? It's the same thing. Like if you go outside with a football and your child doesn't shoot a perfect 50-yard goal when they're two. You don't give up on sports.

SPEAKER_00: 20:03

You're going to play tennis, right?

SPEAKER_01: 20:04

Yeah, exactly, right? But it's the same thing. We have so much acceptance and patience in almost every aspect of learning, except when it comes to nutrition. We give up so easy. And one of the main drivers of that is that parents actually have very poor eating habits or lack of knowledge themselves

SPEAKER_00: 20:23

on what that nutrition is. Let's go there. Let's go there. I mean, we had to go there, obviously. So, what I mean you have the baby food lines now let's first unpack a bit what is pumpkin organics at the moment and then we're going to talk about the two directions you can take it obviously like as the child gets older but also before because you say we want to go to the beginning which is obviously not the moment at four and a half or four months or five months depending where you are when they start eating like it's earlier as well so but let's first say okay in a few sentences or a few more currently we're in the late spring of 2022 what is pumpkin organics how would you describe describe it? If you have to, I wouldn't say pitch it, but if you have to present it, what, what do you, because you cannot see it, but behind Jacqueline, there's, there's a lot of food laid out, but obviously it is an audio podcast and we don't do video. So it's described to us what, what pumpkin organics is, where do you sell, who can get it, who can't, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01: 21:16

Absolutely. So pumpkin organics, it's, we, it's a food, it's basically, we want to be the leader in sustainable nutrition. We want to teach children with our food, primarily through snacks and through solution-based food offerings for parents, that there is a way to help your children fall in love with vegetables, to reduce their dependency on sugar, to teach them how to make good food choices, and do it with a lot of just incredibly yummy tasting food. So of course, our products are all organic. We are actually the first baby food globally to be certified climate neutral. We are only one of the three companies in and Europe that have recyclable pouches. So we really do prioritize the entire aspect of the food. Due to the limitations of the industry or the certification regulation processes and the complexity, there's still a lot we can't do. And so we also offer a lot of recipes and our voice of advice, like we're not doctors, we're not nutritionists, we are well-educated, incredibly passionate people that want to help parents teach their children to make healthy, lifelong food decisions. And

SPEAKER_00: 22:32

so you're selling online, you're selling in a number of stores, mostly in, let's say, the German speaking region of Europe at the moment. And of course, with plans to go beyond that.

SPEAKER_01: 22:43

Yeah. Yeah. We're primarily in, like you said, in the German speaking region and most retailers in the organic stores as well. We're a quite large online store, which is fantastic because it allows us to directly connect with parents and we have wonderful discussions with them on the challenges they have and yeah it really feels in the last I don't know half a year more and more people are starting to value nutrition and we really see a growth of the base and more and more people willing to try what the child might not instantly like on phase one which is a fruit a fruit poach but actually dig into the complexity of building their diet based off of plants led by vegetables

SPEAKER_00: 23:35

now I suddenly remember when our daughter which she never had actually normally like fruit poaches and she finished one in one shot because of course it's like instant instant gratification and it's like whoa this is interesting this is not what I normally get and and it's it's very it's very interesting anyway so what you mentioned you highlighted some very interesting or you sort of mentioned it there are a lot of things we cannot do yet or we cannot do in terms of regulation and also because it's not that you have your own gigantic factory doing all of this which means you have fully control over where ingredients come from etc so describe the current situation between brackets and what you would like to do because I'm imagining you would like to go beyond organic and start sourcing from the places where because we all know organic certification is amazing but there is a whole world beyond that and it It's a relatively low bar. So what's the current situation and what would you love to do in the near future?

SPEAKER_01: 24:33

So the current situation is the demand for baby food is significant and it's growing, driven by complexity with just knowledge and what do I feed my child? More women are going back to work earlier. So there is a higher reliance on commercial food, things like that. There's a lot of dynamics in the market that that have created a quite large demand on the market. The regulation, the certification hasn't evolved too drastically over the years. So the fact that the core recipes that are on the shelves are the same ones that are from 10, 15 years ago, it might be a new brand, it might be new packaging, but the core concept of the food hasn't evolved is one of my biggest areas that I really want to fight for. And also the core decision makers that are leading the certification, the regulations of the food is the big companies, the big brands, the big agencies. And we need to get some new blood in there. We need to get some new thought. We need to get some people that are actually truly want to drive the industry based on the science, not based on cheap ingredients, accessibility of those ingredients, or what the baby is just saying, oh, I want more sugar. What's going to sell on the shelf? Like you said, your daughter just slurped up a pouch. Something that's really important with our pouches is they're thick. So when the child actually takes the product into their mouth, they can't swallow it right away. They actually have to maneuver it within the mouth. They have to produce the saliva, which aids in the digestion and also which helps when it gets into the gut with the bacteria. Also, we started the company with a little spoon attachment to the pouch. So you can engage with the child. You can feed the child right away. So there's a lot of aspects of the industry that I was able to change just by my product offering. But it's been a very, very uphill battle because there was no category for our products at the beginning. And we're only talking five years ago. We're not talking 20 years ago. There was no vegetable category on the shelf. Everybody laughed at us when I told them what I wanted to do. They said, this will never sell. You're competing against mega incumbents, especially in Germany, with the price point so low, what it is on the shelf, I can't even produce for.

SPEAKER_00: 27:08

Yeah, because it's those cheap ingredients that are, but it is selling, like parents are buying, coming back. And because they see, imagine they see the results. And so, but you are not able yet to select your farms, for instance, or to select, like go down all the way down to, okay, I want this tomato row and not that one where they put organic coke on it.

SPEAKER_01: 27:31

No, because the complexity of how organic food for babies is still farmed and certified is very, very closed. So there are certain farms, of course, like a certified baby organic broccoli is different than an organic broccoli, different from a broccoli,

SPEAKER_00: 27:49

et cetera. It's like a completely different category, basically, in terms of certification.

SPEAKER_01: 27:54

Exactly. Yeah. Because of the contaminant levels in the product. and also what is allowed with fertilizers, et cetera, et cetera.

SPEAKER_00: 28:01

Which is a good thing. It is a good thing. But it means it's very difficult to disrupt. It's not that you say, oh, let's use that broccoli. No, it's not from that certified farm and that certified field.

SPEAKER_01: 28:11

And especially for a company like us that wanted to use a lot of ingredients that were beyond the core five fruits

SPEAKER_00: 28:17

and two vegetables. Nobody was certifying, basically.

SPEAKER_01: 28:19

It was a nightmare to find certified red beets, for example, or quinoa, things like this, within a acceptable travel distance to our plants of course like we have nothing coming from far far away with the exception of the banana because they have all baby bananas come from ecuador in germany we can't grow them here or you know in italy or something

SPEAKER_00: 28:42

and so if you would grow like what what would you need to do would you need to be double decide like is it in reach to start controlling more of that process do you need to be 10 times as much or do you say okay that's something that's a distant dream to be in full control it

SPEAKER_01: 28:57

needs to be the whole industry. The industry has to come together and say, enough is enough. We're going to grow proper ingredients and we're going to actually regulate the industry that we take away all full fruit pouches. There is no need for them in the market at all. We do not need anything with added sugar or juice or concentrate. There is not a single scientific benefit or health benefit to it. And we just have to actually put proper regulation in for what is acceptable baby food in that first thousand days. It should be all the way through through

SPEAKER_00: 30:01

our lifespan. We're going to talk about that. There's no way, like this whole discussion now on soil health and the connection to the nutrient density or the quality of the produce. Are you going to introduce or try, or that's impossible to say, okay, we know this farm near Munich that's doing amazing broccoli, for instance, and somehow we're going to try to, as a little wedge, to wedge it into our supply chain? Yeah, we

SPEAKER_01: 30:28

try, definitely. And we work with our plants as much as we can on it.

SPEAKER_00: 30:34

Do they like it? Are they interested in that kind of, or are you just a small and a bit annoying customer sometimes?

SPEAKER_01: 30:41

So we're definitely probably that small little, you know, annoying child that's always tugging, you know, at your-

SPEAKER_00: 30:46

But why, but why, but why?

SPEAKER_01: 30:48

Exactly. But the thing is the plants and the R&D teams at the plants are amazing. They want to do more work like we do. But the many of the incumbent brands and the other, and the customer base still isn't demanding it. So

SPEAKER_00: 31:02

that's- their customers. Yeah. You're, you're sort of the activistic shareholder, but if you, I mean, you're still putting something on the agenda.

SPEAKER_01: 31:12

Yeah, definitely. And we are making change because like it's, we are the first people doing a lot of these formulas and then you start to see them cropping up other places, which is wonderful. So this is like, even though we're one of the smallest brands, probably within the brand, not just the starting brand, we do have a loud voice and we do have a seat at the table at most of our plants, which is really fantastic. We get above our, I would say, share of resources in development and looking at different techniques and working with the farmers, packaging techniques, processing techniques, because we're trying to change the industry and they see that. So in that respect, we are making small inroads, but for mega change to happen in this industry, it has to come from the institutionalized bodies that change the regulation and or basically the bigger brands coming together and say, no, we're done. We're not going to do that anymore because that is against what the science says for first nutrition.

SPEAKER_00: 32:18

And

SPEAKER_01: 32:19

let's take it to one step.

SPEAKER_00: 32:21

And the demand for cheap food. No, it's like you're showing that there is demand for non-cheap food. Of course, there's a discussion or like, okay, if your price point is higher, what about accessibility? How do we tackle that? Or do you see like our stuff is brought by people throughout, let's say, income levels, et cetera, because people prioritize differently. Like, how do you see that? Are you for the happy few? I'm trying to ask. Or are you across the board for people that are targeting better health for their

SPEAKER_01: 32:54

children? If I could, I mean, we are not making a higher margin on our product. I do not believe access to health should be driven by your socioeconomic position or your postcode at all. I think this should be actually part of the government's platforms, First Nutrition, that every child gets an equal start, both from an education and a product access point of view. So what we've actually tried to do is, of course, we sell our product at the normal product price, which is about 20% above the market. But that's a big amount in some markets.

SPEAKER_00: 33:32

Especially if you see it next to each other. Exactly. That's the problem always, because it's really on the shelf.

SPEAKER_01: 33:38

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00: 33:38

It's just really framing-wise. You might buy, I don't know, you spend it so much easier on electronics and things like that. But if you're standing in the shop. of you thinking like, oh, 20%. Like we're talking one

SPEAKER_01: 33:51

euro items, right? I know, I know. And people make choices based on 10, 15 cents, but yet you go and buy the iPhone 12, or I don't know what number we're on, 15, 16 now. No idea, no idea. Not even thinking twice about it. And so this is what I mean where, you know, if we, when you asked about what we could change, one of the single biggest things is education. Because if people actually knew really what they were doing to their bodies, I think it would change that 15, 20 cents decision. And any person who is going to the market on the weekend or any day, you see the price of an organic broccoli, of an organic sweet potato. We can't do it for the price of an apple. We just can't, right? It's impossible. And so even just the ingredient amount that we spend, the rest of the production costs are relatively the same. Packaging is the same. We all have the same packaging or relative. It's the ingredients.

SPEAKER_00: 34:47

Amazing. Is that what you would change if you had one? I'm bringing the magic wand question in already. What would you change overnight if you had that power? Would it be education or good nutrition, science-based nutrition education for all?

SPEAKER_01: 35:01

Yeah, I would. It's the root of the absolute needed change in society. People don't inherently wake up one morning and say, oh, I'm going to feed my child bad today. Or it's okay if my child gets a lifestyle disease later on because I didn't... treat them well when they were a baby. No parent does that. Everyone wakes up, I want the best for my child. I want to give them the best that I can do, that I know about, that I have access and that I can afford. You're not that literal, but that's your mentality as a mom and as a dad or whoever the caregiver is. But it's not what we offer. It's not what society offers. There's so much marketing, washing, green washing, health washing on products that if you don't have a medical degree, a chemistry degree, a scientific research background, it's really unfair to put these labels in front of you, to put these products on the shelf when it's 85, 90, 95% of the shelf at trusted retailers by trusted brands, you trust it, right? That's human nature. That's what we have to do. We have no other choice. So if we don't change the way we treat people and by respecting their intelligence and actually educating them fairly, it's extremely difficult to blame them for making decisions that are maybe not 100% optimal for their child's health.

SPEAKER_00: 36:28

And how do we take it even one step before? Is it first nutrition? But of course, it's not the first nutrition. It's the first nutrition happens in the womb and then happens with breastfeeding or whatever milk you end up using. So I know you're thinking a lot. There's nothing on the market yet. Because the first thousand days, I think, includes the pregnancy. Yes, it includes the belly. a few months before. I'm just going to quote Jeremy Grantham, the founder of GMO, which is badly named, but it's a value investor that wrote a paper. No, he's the G of it. It's nothing to do with GMOs, but it was 50 years ago, I think they mentioned it. But he wrote a paper on chemical toxicity in the baby bust, which I highly recommend. He's sent to all his institutional investors. So all of this ended up in the boardrooms because he's such a respected investor of pension funders. etc and he was talking about the baby bus and toxicity and he said for the immediate present I do feel a moral imperative to urge anyone pregnant to eat nothing but organic fruit and vegetables let's say vegetables only for the duration and men for some for six months prior for more about this please see the appendix I will link it below like that that period before or the start even like how how would you approach that would that be is that in the future of the company is that another company is that What do you feel about that actually first-first nutrition even before the whole process starts? It's

SPEAKER_01: 38:03

vital. I mean, the success and health of our society starts in the belly. There's no doubt. And when you eat well, you feel well, right? Because there's also so much, not just nutritional science, but mental well-being science in the pregnancy that if you are happy and smiling, your baby is going to come out happier and more ready to adjust and learn. And every single thing we do is a domino effect so first nutrition absolutely starts with the mom I mean or whoever like the pregnant aspect of it and majority and we have to start educating women when they are in the school system when they are in just products on the shelf when we start talking about any aspects of getting pregnant or being pregnant there is no nutrition knowledge you get from the stand midwife program in Germany, which is amazing. Germany has this system where almost every mom gets a midwife to help them through the process. None of them have nutrition, or very, very few. I shouldn't say none. There's probably some exceptions. There is more instructions on your IKEA bookshelf than you get on nutrition when you're pregnant or when you go to the appointments for your doctor around six months, five, six months to get a guide on how to feed your child. It's absolutely, everyone is left alone. And when you're left alone and you have no idea what's happening in your body, what's happening in the world around you, you are so anxious. You find bits of knowledge that you grab onto. And this often comes from your parents, right? Your mom or your grandma or your friends around you or completely random influencer strangers that are more worried about their bikini body. Exactly. During the pregnancy. But this is where they get a lot of their nutrition knowledge from. This is so unfair to women. You can't. You can't expect women just to wake up one morning and have this nutrition halo above them telling their brain what decisions to make when we as an entire society do not actually put anything forth to help educate them. So I would love to move our company forward to what we call the belly. And it's actually one of the reasons that we are going to start the larger funding round now is we feel that we have a very, very big opportunity to help because we truly care it's not just about finding the you know the next big product um at the cheapest margin we truly really think we can have an impact on women's well-being um driven by nutrition um during during the pregnancy phase yeah

SPEAKER_00: 40:45

and and that seems really like a complete like blue ocean i mean

SPEAKER_01: 40:50

yeah

SPEAKER_00: 40:51

there there's there's of course you should take this vitamin and that but that's pretty much it there's nothing on nutrition there's also nothing on nutrition, I've seen some complaints about, oh, there's so little research on breastfeeding versus not and things like that. And there's one randomized control trial somewhere, I think they did in Belarus. But nobody asked the question, what were the women eating? What was feeding? Because it's not politically sexy. It's not that the breast milk comes out of thin air. You have to eat something to make... You have to

SPEAKER_01: 41:24

eat

SPEAKER_00: 41:25

a lot of nutritious food to produce enough milk. And that should be the focus there. And then we go one step forward. what would that look like if you have any others? Would that be specific packages for pregnant women or crucial ones also there? Because are there connections? I would love to know if there's research. Whatever the women were eating during pregnancy, does that result in less picky eaters later? Because also there, you're feeding the child, obviously, indirectly, but very directly.

SPEAKER_01: 41:55

So there's definitely, in the first 1,000 days research, some anecdotal studies from the pregnancy side that if the mom ate a lot of cucumbers, the child loves cucumbers. If the child ate a lot of sugar-laden food, the child comes out. But honestly, this is beyond just that connection in the belly because if the mommy didn't eat that well when the baby was in the belly, they're going to continue those eating patterns after. And when you think of how much knowledge the child absorbs every day, they see that. This is what they're going to be served. So the real... There are not... that many hardcore studies that have been, you know, lasted over generations yet or peer review to the nines on this topic because it is so sensitive and the number of variables when a woman is pregnant that for the research to truly be verified, I think would be extremely, extremely difficult.

SPEAKER_00: 42:49

But just to be sure, we know the direction. Let's say it's not, I think there was David Lezak's and Mandy Ellerton where we had them on the podcast, on a webinar actually, and they really, research this connection between the human health nexus and regenerative agriculture. And they said, yeah, we will never know all the details. We'll never know all the nuances and all the variables, but the direction is very, very, very clear. There is a strong connection between the two. So we better start acting because otherwise we're going to wait 20 years for all the peer reviewed papers to come out. And then we're too late. We're probably are a bit late already.

SPEAKER_01: 43:21

Yeah. When you think, when you look at the, I mean, the rising obesity rates, the rate, the rising, like rates that children don't actually understand nutrition, we are at a critical turning point because And, but, you know, the reality is like with regenerative aspects of farming, like the point is we can make a change, right? Like it's, this is in our control and that's the wonderful thing about it. It's, it doesn't, it's not revolutionary. It's just small changes, taking an evolutionary approach to lifestyle changes is going to move the dial. And I think-

SPEAKER_00: 44:00

Yeah, we're not lost. I think that's- we see and that's I think maybe one of the main rediscoveries I would say because obviously for generations and generations indigenous peoples we knew this but the fact that soil can come back relatively quickly depending how we treat it and the mirroring effect of the soil microbiome and our gut microbiome suggest that we can do similar steps in a few years or a few months or we've all heard these miracle stories but it is it is at least reversible to a certain extent obviously we're not going to treat everything please don't start writing about this but it is there's enormous steps to be taken and to be made in relatively like in geology time like in nothing basically in a blimp in history we can do a lot of things so what would be then what would you tell smart investors let's say we're in a theater full of finance people that are all dressed up obviously we're on stage we're doing this and then it's the question is that Okay. What would we like to give them to them without obviously giving them investment advice, but what would you like to tell them when they walk out of the theater? What should they do the next day or the next morning or even the evening itself, apart from feeding their children if they have it very differently, but like what should they focus their work energy on, their mental energy to spend their days on, not just in the weekends when they read the financial times, how to spend it. Now I want to spend them to spend a week on this as well, their work life. What should they dig deeper into? What should Should they look for, where should we guide them?

SPEAKER_01: 45:34

So this kind of feels like some of my daily discussions at times because a lot of investors and a lot of capital is being put behind very marketing and shiny companies that probably won't actually impact society positively in the next few months, years, or even decades. It's probably a little bit further out to have that exponential or multiplying effect on the health and happiness of society. So that would be the first thing is truly find companies that the change or the product they're working on has an ability to impact in the short term. Because there's a lot of money that are going behind big ideas. Like for example, the alternative meat investment, just insane amounts. It's crazy. That's great. But why don't we just teach kids to eat proper plants now? You know, like, why do we need to have all these? Okay, I'm not talking about like, we need to find alternative proteins through insects. Not that absolutely, because there's just so many people coming. We have to feed them. We have to make sure they get enough protein and B12 and folic acid, etc. But the amount of research that is behind making a hamburger look like it bleeds or a plant-based hamburger in the way a regular hamburger does.

SPEAKER_00: 46:54

You could subsidize all children in Germany to eat better for the first. Yeah, I don't

SPEAKER_01: 46:57

understand that. Why can we not? Why can investors not actually see the impact of today right that we actually look at societal changes behavioral changes things that will impact a huge society en masse not that we can just afford you know the big celebrity investors to come and back products that may or may

SPEAKER_00: 47:19

not actually change then you have to be forced you're forced to really look at the excel or look at the numbers and calculate what could be done this year next year not just because these numbers are always very interesting of the year three or four they start to the hockey stick starts to go up, let's say. And in many cases, it doesn't happen. But we like to believe in that dream of disrupting everything in a few years and forgetting that true disruption takes much longer. Even the disruption stories we tell ourselves are usually 10, 15 years in the making, which is still nothing on the large timescale of things.

SPEAKER_01: 47:53

No, no. But there's a huge amount of investment required behind what I always call non-sexy industries or products that truly impact today's society and this would be the number like the big thing I always try to ask of investors like don't follow the herd like be an original thinker be an original backer and back things that are truly important to society today that can make an impact today and then back the big ideas but know that that's your longer term bet and bring some you know some of the funding into the nearer term

SPEAKER_00: 48:28

it should be a barbell strategy 85% does not seem to let It says 85 in boring, non-sexy, but very important things. And 15 for the crazy wild moon shots with Google and things like that.

SPEAKER_01: 48:41

Could you imagine the impact on our society if we took 25% of our healthcare costs out of the system? If we actually reduced sick days, you know, by 10, 15%, if we increased productivity by 20%, like these are metrics that we can control. And for that, we don't need to invest, you know, billions and billions into, you know, meatless hamburgers.

SPEAKER_00: 49:04

Or AI and robotics.

SPEAKER_01: 49:05

Or AI, or I always say like autonomous flying helicopters, which are, it's super cool stuff. But the impact is needed now where children and parents are making very, very big decisions. And

SPEAKER_00: 49:19

so what would you do? What would you do if you were in charge of a billion dollar fund? Oh, gosh. Sorry, let's bring it to Europe. A billion euro fund, what would you focus on? I'm starting to guess 850 million goes to... Yeah. Exactly, right? You know,

SPEAKER_01: 49:35

really two big things. One is that every single mom start when they become pregnant all the way to first nutrition is there's a plan. It's financially covered or at least subsidized that every single baby coming into this world and child has a fair start for their brain to be developed, their bodies to be developed, and that they can start in a healthy and happy way and really lead to a contributing members of society. Much like in the Scandinavian countries, when you go home with the baby, you get this little box with a basic thing of diapers and some new clothes and you get, it's got a bed. So basically their point is that every single child in their first few months has a place to sleep, is going to be fed, have the right, you know, diapers, et cetera. We need to do that, but we need to focus on the pregnant women or the baby in the belly and then that first nutrition. Okay. We have to start the education system, not just teaching people to eat vegetables, but we need to create storytellers, right? Like society changes by stories because it's peer to peer, if it's influencer, if it's from a healthcare practitioner, if it's even on this podcast, we're telling stories, which people listen to and they attach.

SPEAKER_00: 50:48

Vegetables, no fruit. If you remember one thing, vegetables, no fruit.

SPEAKER_01: 50:51

Yeah, exactly. I mean, right. And this is the point that I would also really invest in opportunities on how do we educate on nutrition and soil and farming. Where does the carrot come from? You know, kids actually have answered Amazon delivery, some of these questions. Like this is such a scary part of society. We need to get, this would be my next investment vertical, education systems into the daycares, the kindergartens and the schools. Put a garden in every single kindergarten. Teach the children how to grow the food, how to nurture the vegetables, how to harvest the vegetables, how to cook it together. If a child actually goes through this, it's not just their knowledge on the food that will increase, but food waste will drastically decrease because they see how much hard work they put into creating that carrot.

SPEAKER_00: 51:41

They will eat it. And they will

SPEAKER_01: 51:43

eat it with such great pride and they'll want to share it. So there's so much that we can do to actually create this grassroots demand for better soil conditions, better aspects to growing because people, once they become healthier. When you are healthier, you demand healthier aspects of life. And then once you get beyond just how to eat not just sugar food, but vegetables, you're going to say, how do I make that broccoli healthier? And this is the change, I think, that we can drive by doing basic things in the school system, the keto system. And then when children are older, we should have mandatory cooking classes in the schools, mandatory agriculture classes in the schools. Because if you took food food away, we don't really have a society, right? Like we're done. And this is the big, these are the big things I would really invest behind. And my next one would be the farmers. Coming from a farming area, it's not an easy life being a farmer. And often the techniques that are out there in the amazing science, right? From crops, from biodiversity, from crop swapping, different aspects of like What is the next level of organic? Like you said, this takes investment. This takes funding. And a lot of the farmers are just fighting day by day to get across and feed their families. So I would really put a proper amount of the investment in to move farmers from conventional agriculture into this, not just organic, but what is the next level? And it's regenerative, which we know now, but then what is the next thing that we can have this holistic approach that we can meet the food demand, but healthier, more valuable food.

SPEAKER_00: 54:09

Putting your MBA hat on, the first thing you mentioned on education and making sure that every child, let's say in Germany or in Europe or obviously globally, has access to the right food at the beginning. Is there a way, or maybe there isn't, but is there a way to frame that or somehow figure out a way to attract investment amount for it? Because there's always this And nonprofits should do this probably in a certain way. But at the same time, the amount of nonprofit money available is nothing.

SPEAKER_01: 54:40

I don't think it should be done by nonprofits.

SPEAKER_00: 54:41

It's nothing compared to the investment amount available for crazy moonshot stuff. But how could we frame this in a way like, okay, if we run this program, we create enough demand for companies like Pumpkin Organics to grow. How could we connect it to, unfortunately, a financial outcome? How would you do that? How would you

SPEAKER_01: 55:00

structure

SPEAKER_00: 55:02

it in a way as an investor? Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 55:04

you need to run it as if you're trying to build the next billion dollar entity. Or if you're running a Mittelstand company or something, you have to run it as a for-profit to build a sustainable business model company. I think one of the reasons a lot of the things I mentioned don't get the funding they need is because they're often managed by nonprofits or by government agencies. And through bureaucracy or lack of speed or agility or inability to attract- talent you need to drive a business, it takes 10 years, 15 years, a lot of frustrations, maybe 5x the budget. I don't know. I mean, I'm not trying to discredit it. But if you actually started running every single nonprofit topic as a for-profit and built a proper business model behind it with proper checks and balances and investors, you can actually, I think, change the business models behind these. Because there is a business model behind health. We know that, right? Food tech, health tech, all of these are the biggest growing or some of the biggest growing investment pools in venture. But where the venture dollars are going are behind teams. It's because the idea is only the very small part of where the venture money goes at the beginning. It's behind the team, right? You invest in the founder, you invest in the team. And these teams are often not the people that are running the nonprofit. So I'm not trying to be disparaging. I actually think it's quite positive and quite exciting that if we actually invest invested behind people that have the passion and purpose for a lot of these traditionally non-profit

SPEAKER_00: 56:40

topics. They will figure out a business model. They will do

SPEAKER_01: 56:42

it. Because we've

SPEAKER_00: 56:43

done it before. And it might be with insurance companies. You need to figure out where the savings are being made. Why are

SPEAKER_01: 56:50

the insurance companies not backing First Nutrition?

SPEAKER_00: 56:53

Nutrition.

SPEAKER_01: 56:54

This is mind-boggling. And in Germany, like where we are, this is the land of insurance companies. It's mind-boggling how many insurance companies here and the power they hold, but I've never seen a single, not a single one of them have called us. Not a single one have said, hey, how can we get involved to help or do something? And I don't think any other really truly science-backed or health-backed company is getting the calls.

SPEAKER_00: 57:21

It's just easier

SPEAKER_01: 57:22

to put the band-aid on or put more beds into the hospital or do X or Y later in life versus actually trying to solve a bigger problem and it's also not politically sexy because no politician is going to get elected by saying oh we're going to give children a fairer start in life

SPEAKER_00: 57:42

no we're going to prevent the next part of the next effects of the pandemic we're going to prevent it's very but you see societies not changing but you mentioned like the last six months or last year it's like nutrition and health and food seem to have at least a different spotlight on it now and there seem to be changes in at least changes in choices we made I mean, of course, a lot of local ones exploded during the pandemic because we couldn't get anywhere or we couldn't get access to the supermarket or things were finished. And from the flour boom to where do I get my eggs to where do I get my vegetables, et cetera, et cetera. And some of that stayed, luckily. And I think people got used to different flavors and tastes. And now the question is, how do we sustain that? How do

SPEAKER_01: 58:25

we scale it?

SPEAKER_00: 58:26

How do we scale it? And as a final question, I mean, this is a whole different rabbit hole we just touched upon, but I find it fascinating there will be another interview to unpack, okay, how do we take traditional nonprofit areas and invest in them with the specific focus of turning them into large impact business models. That's a different episode. We'll come back to that at some point. But now as a last question, where do you, I mean, there are many like vegetables versus fruit, but where do you, when you go to your, I don't know if they're peer conferences, for sure they're conferences of baby food. When you go there, What's the biggest one that you feel, even if you go to the organic, more, say, healthy side of the aisle, where do you think most differently? Is that the vegetable versus fruit? Is it something else? I love to ask this question, what do you believe to be true about Regen Ag, but in this case about baby food, that others don't believe to be true? And this definitely comes from John Kempf as an inspiration.

SPEAKER_01: 59:28

So I think what I believe to be true that I don't think many of my industry peers is that first food actually matters. That we need to actually care, like if we truly cared for the child and their upbringing and their ability to lead a healthier and happier life, we would be really vegetables, plant-based, no pureed fruit, no sugar, no additives. I don't think the formula is crazy. I don't think it's complicated. And then the other aspect is healthy people are going to demand healthy food, right? Once we get people healthy, you don't want to go back to feeling sick. You don't want to go back to pain in the body. And healthy food comes from healthy soil, healthy land. And I think we, I really believe that we can, that it's a movement, regenerative farming. It's not a marketing buzzword. It's a full movement. But a movement needs to come from grassroots. It needs to come from people that are going to truly want to change people's minds and where their hearts, their energy and where they put their time and then ultimately their money. I do believe it can change. I do believe it's worth the investment in more recyclable packaging. The add-ons into products that children really learn how to engage with food and live a healthier lifestyle and make good food choices. And I do think we're pretty rare in the industry, not just here in Germany, but kind of anywhere that we truly think that we can impact children's health holistically and with longer-term impacts, starting with baby food.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:12

This is a good way to end, but I still have one more question I would like to ask. What about biodynamic? We had White Leaf Provisions, which is a US brand that mostly sources, I think, sources all of their ingredients in Europe. And I mean, biodynamic is sort of a step beyond organic, fully certified, which makes it very interesting for compared to, let's say, the larger regenerative umbrella where there's a lot of discussion and there should be a lot of discussion. Let's not define it just yet. Are there any ingredients you source like that? Is that cost prohibitive? What's the reasoning behind not being fully biodynamic, for instance? There is a market also for that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:53

Yeah, there is, definitely. Many of our ingredients are, but unless you have everything on it, you cannot call your product

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:01

biodynamic. Rightfully so, otherwise we get, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:02

Otherwise. we have more marketing washing and health washing which we will never do um so there's just not enough yet on it to be um i think interesting enough where i would look to sacrifice taste development or diversity in ingredients like the large amount of ingredients that we put in our products um and taste you know from sour to bitter etc but yes it is one of the next easy steps to do it's it's not cost prohibitive it's it's marginally it's It's just like organic in the cost structure. It's just, there's not everything available yet. And also we don't have a certification real regulation yet board on it. So of course we have Demita and things like this, but they're also, it's also not black and white. There's products that have that label on them that aren't even fully Demita. So again, it's confusing to the customer and producer. So clarity, transparency, traceability, as soon as we make all of these things so much more mandatory I think things like biodiversity will just be one of the net winners. And it's a winner to everybody right now because it's just the next step.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:12

Perfect. Yeah, we had an interview, depending a bit on the production schedule, it will be out already and otherwise we'll link it later with Activista Modo Arizona Muse on biodynamic, on the fibers, obviously, because she comes from the fashion industry. She is in the fashion industry, but definitely also on the food aspects, which was absolutely fascinating. If you want to learn more, check the links below. Actually, up below. Check the links in the show notes. And I want to thank you so much for your time. And I know you have a very, very busy schedule. And thank you so much for coming on here. Thank you for the work you do. And thank you for sharing. And I don't think it's the last time we chat about the importance of the first thousand and then all the other thousand days that follow up.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:51

Yeah, in the next. Thank you so much for having us. It means a lot that you also let us have another ability to get the message out and really start fighting for kids' nutrition. It's Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:04

Yeah. If you remember one thing, vegetables, not fruit. I just keep repeating it. I'll put it as an undertone in all the future interviews. Don't forget vegetables, not fruit. Anyway, see you at the next one. Thank you so much and have a great day.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:16

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:20

Thanks again and see you next time.