Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast features the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
197 Farmers’ Philosophy - Jeroen Klompe, pioneer of regenerative agriculture
A conversation between Koen van Seijen, host of the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast, and Jeroen Klompe, farmer and owner of Klompe Landbouw.
We can learn so much more from farmers than how to restore soil. Regeneration goes much further and deeper. That’s why this is the first episode of the Farmers’ Philosophy series, where we make time with farmers who are pushing the boundaries of regenerative agriculture, we sit down with them and take time to to explore more than soil health.
The video version of the conversation is on YouTube. Film and edit by Caspar Daniël Diederik of Storytravelers.
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Welcome to the Farmers Philosophy Series, where we make time with farmers who are pushing the boundaries of regenerative agriculture. We sit down with them and explore the world of regeneration beyond soil health. We also filmed these episodes, so please have a look on our YouTube channel or the link below if you're interested. For now, make a cup of tea, find a comfortable place to listen and enjoy. To make it easy for fans to support our work, we launched our membership community. And so many of you have joined us as a member. Thank you. If our work created value for you, and if you have the means, and only if you have the means, consider joining us. Find out more on gumroad.com slash investing in RegenAg. That is gumroad.com slash investing in RegenAg. Or find the link below. Welcome to this series which we call the farmer philosophy series and we're in a very very special place we're going to talk about where we are obviously in a second with a very special person jeroen klompe which i've known for a number of years and i couldn't imagine a better place and story and moment and person to start this this journey with this is an experiment this might be the only one hopefully not um this is the first time we ever do video in on this podcast or on this conversation series. So we're capturing it. Maybe you're watching this on YouTube or Vimeo or wherever we put it. Maybe you're not. Maybe you're just listening to it, which is perfectly fine as well. We try to be as visual as possible, but do know there is a video version which you can look at. So join us in a journey where we're going to explore. We're going to dig a bit deeper. We're going to look where the story and the conversation takes us today. So welcome. Welcome to this very special place. Welcome, Jeroen. Thank you so much for agreeing on another experiment, because we've done quite a few together yet. And I mean, we already started on the philosophy part, but let's just very briefly, because you hear sometimes some sounds in the background, maybe some bubbling, because we are in a place with a lot of other beings that are definitely alive. So where are we and where do we find ourselves here? If you had to describe a bit the background, which you can, of course, in the visual side, if you look at the video, you can see it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, where are we? We are in... storage facility located on our farm which used to be a storage facility for potatoes and carrots and onions but we have transformed it last year into a barrel house a barrel storage
SPEAKER_01:and what's in these barrels because it's not potatoes onions or empty barrels this is a very special very special place
SPEAKER_04:yes this is a place and we we call them the ladies and the ladies are our wooden barrels and in the barrels soy sauce is fermenting for at least two years in the barrels
SPEAKER_01:yeah we've done I would definitely link them below we've done an interview with Bert on Tomasu and the soy sauce journey there are many interesting stories online you can find many videos but it's a very fitting place because here the barrels rest but are at work at the same time. And I think time there is, if you look at your soy sauce bottle, the first ingredient is time. And it's very fitting that we have the time now to talk about it. We're at the end of the season. There's never an end of the season, but we're in November 2022. Everything slowed down just a bit, never slowed down a lot, but we have a bit of time to sit down and go a bit deeper into different moments. So what has been the season like this year? We're in 2022. I think you're going to say challenging. But what is, from looking at sort of at the end, looking back, what's the first word that comes to mind?
SPEAKER_04:When you are in the barrels, it's like a zen space. So things are popping up immediately in your head. And the first thing which is popping up in my head is that I'm proud. And looking back at the year, it was a special year because of the different weather conditions. And... I'm super proud of the regenerative system we've built because the difference between the conventional part and the regenerative part were huge this year. So that's a reward for all the investment we have made in soil, in soil improvement, in the whole system we've built to build soil, to grow plants and that people around us but also the core team team and everybody, it's going to work.
SPEAKER_01:It's really working. Just to give a bit of background, we're here on a 360-hectare farm just south of Rotterdam in the Netherlands. Very intensive in terms of potatoes, onions, carrots, and soy and grain, obviously, to make this. And many fields have been in transition for a long time. Some fields have been in transition for shorter. Some fields you're just renting or leasing for a year. So you can see the differences. And if you had to describe to the audience like what was the biggest surprise in those differences between like let's say a more conventional extractively farmed or conventional field that you've been farming for some of the owners compared to like the fields that have been on that transition for much longer what was the biggest surprise and what made you proud yeah that that the core is water holding
SPEAKER_04:capacity so nothing about this carbon stuff that we've been talking about the the the water holding capacity was enormous this year. At the beginning when you want to plant your potatoes or sow your onions etc. We had a super crumble structure with the right amount of moist to sow because the cover crops they were mulched and they were fermented in a short period and they were storing or keeping or holding the water enormously. So the start of the season was good and it was becoming drier and drier and drier. And yet you could see the difference in development of the plants on the plant resilience, the healthy side of the plants. And yeah, during the season you could see the difference in, hey, these plants are continuing with the production and these plants are a little bit hesitant because of worse root systems or because of less amount of water, et cetera. And that has resulted in, let's say, to make it visual, the most conventional plots we have irrigated five or six times and the regenerated plots we haven't irrigated or one or two times.
SPEAKER_01:Which
SPEAKER_04:is
SPEAKER_01:massive. I mean, the fact that we already talk about irrigation in the Netherlands is a thing. I mean, that means climate is changing, weather is changing. And the fact, those differences, what did this season... taught you or what is the biggest lesson you learned, if you look back now at this year, after many, many years, because you've done an incredible amount of experiments, you've been on this journey for a long time, but what is the biggest lesson from this year? Apart from the fact it works, it, whatever it
SPEAKER_04:is. Time and patience is your best friend. Looking at the barrels, yeah. But also in soil. If you have the patience to build it, it's going to give it back to you. The plants, they thank you with a better crop, with a better skin structure, etc. Because you have invested in that, in time, in the possibility to rebalance nature in your soils. And when you say rebalance nature, what does it mean to you? Meaning that the balance between the most essential parts, nutrients, organic matter, biology, in and above the soil, biodiversity, frequency, energy, they are all working together in the system we have built, which is called regenerative farming at the moment.
SPEAKER_01:And you see in the most advanced plots that that dance or orchestra is starting to, let's say, sing together or tune together. Yes. And is that a...
SPEAKER_04:It's like an orchestra.
SPEAKER_01:Is that a linear thing? Like at some point, or suddenly it starts and you're like, whoa, like that plot is starting, like the balance is, or the orchestra starts to make proper music instead of just...
SPEAKER_04:Looking back at all the years we are busy with it, The first years, you ask the questions to yourself, am I doing it right? Because you are investing in it, but you see nothing. Or less even. You see more chaos, more... Yes, but what am I doing? But during the season, during the years, it is improving and you see a little bit more results. But it takes time. And then after three or four years, it's going to accelerate. And then year six, seven, and eight, holy shit, the system is going to work for itself. And you only have to maintain the system. And then the happiness is there.
SPEAKER_01:And do you, are you going now with those first plots into a space that is completely unknown to you as well? How far can that go? Or are you starting to go into, okay, we always thought 10 was the max and now we're going to actually we're at 15 and we have no idea where it ends or are you still like in the comfortable space or are you going into directions you don't even know yet?
SPEAKER_04:We are in the comfortable space that we see how nature and soils are working. We are in a discomfortable space that we are learning more every day and that we go in that and that we are going to ask ourselves more questions what is happening
SPEAKER_01:how much do you let's say how much do you think you know now rough rough estimate Are
SPEAKER_00:we at 2%, 5%, 1%? I think we are. 10%?
SPEAKER_04:No, I think we know. 50%? I think what's happening, I think we know 20%. Okay. And
SPEAKER_01:if I asked this question seven years ago?
SPEAKER_04:We knew the wrong things.
SPEAKER_01:You thought you knew more, but you didn't. Yes, so
SPEAKER_04:maybe it's a negative. So minus... You have a big jump from minus 20% to 20%. Because we were learned and educated in the wrong things.
SPEAKER_01:When you
SPEAKER_04:say wrong things, what is wrong? It was not wrong, it was modified in those years because we were busy building that system and everybody was convinced about that system. And that's the system of modern finance. Farming, cost price driven farming, large scale farming, industrialized food systems, etc. But that system has an end.
SPEAKER_01:And you saw that coming. I mean, I remember the first time we met, and I think we said it in the interview we did as well, like you at some point saw those lines, like the yield was plateauing and the costs were going up, and that's very dangerous as a company. And do you remember, because that's one thing is, okay, how are we gonna increase yields and or decrease costs, because otherwise we're, this is not going to end well. But I think there's a much more philosophical layer underneath that because you keep saying and keep repeating over the last years, you have to listen to nature. You have to, nature knows what it wants, what she wants, and we have to listen and tune into that and follow that and what does the soil want, et cetera. But that is a huge shift from we farm and nature has to follow me or us and we just plant and the rest Like, do you remember what triggered that? Like that realization that I'm not in full control, I will never be, and I'm part of nature instead of above nature. I feel like that's the fundamental shift many go through in this space. But I'm also very curious because you started as a very conventional farmer on a very conventional farm. It's not that you came to this realization and then bought a farm. No, you were farming and shifted that. Do you remember what started triggering that like oh there's much more and oh against nature we're probably going to lose it or the battle
SPEAKER_04:yeah I think it's one of the biggest mirrors to open my eyes were our travelings around the world together with my wife and family for example we thought that we had the best soils in the world we were utopia in farming in the Netherlands. We had the best universities. We had the best machinery. We had the best soil. We were the best. That was the conviction we had. We were convinced about it. But then during our visits, we always have the goal to find local food growers, how they do it, how do they sell their products, et cetera, local food markets, et cetera. And then we saw
SPEAKER_03:it. hmm,
SPEAKER_04:maybe we have some problems also in the Netherlands with large scale farming. And I remember a farm stay in Nepal where we were sleeping at a micro farm, which was growing all the crops and they were exchanging it with their neighbors, et cetera. And we were having conversations at night during dinner, super healthy dinner with super tasteful products. And I showed them pictures of what we were doing. Proud,
SPEAKER_01:obviously. Like, look, look at my big tractors and my big fields.
SPEAKER_04:And she was not so good in the English conversations, but she said one thing super clear to me. And she said, too much iron. When I showed the pictures of the machineries working on our land, too much iron.
SPEAKER_01:And what was your response? Were you able at that point to... No. Or were you like, what do you mean? Of course we have a lot of iron. Steel has to
SPEAKER_04:drive. Yes. Big tires. We need to work with the lowest cost prices in the world because we need to feed the people, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then there was also the moment that my wife integrated more in the whole farm. Was a biologist, which we also interviewed. I'll
SPEAKER_01:put all of that
SPEAKER_04:that yeah if you want to have good soils you you have to need to have air and water and carbon and biology all the things in your soil and if you are honest yeah we maybe have a problem with soil compaction and soil compaction leads to a loss of carbon leads to a loss of biodiversity of biology etc etc so soil compaction on the heavy clay soils was our problem because we had too much iron. So the lady in Nepal with one sentence, without having visited us, or maybe she will never visit us, she was totally right. And now you can walk on our soils. And I ask many people, what are you feeling? And they say, oh, it's like we were walking on a... Trampoline. Yeah, trampoline or like a pillow, that it's soft, it's breathing.
SPEAKER_01:So that was the first trigger. I mean, of course, it triggered other thoughts already, but that whole compaction piece was, like you could see that was dangerous. And then it started a whole journey on the machinery, on single lane farming.
SPEAKER_04:And another eye the opener was that I always wanted to have, let's say, a system like the wine estates in France,
SPEAKER_01:where they... We wait a few more years for climate change, we can actually start growing it here, but yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Terroir. But a location where there is terroir, where soil is the basis of the grapes, where they process them. And you always wanted that here, because just to- No, no, no, not here. I like the whole system that you are investing in your soils, that you are adding value to your products by processing it, that you have a connection to consumers, that you have a story around your product, that you have a USP with your products, and that you have a community around you that people have that they when they are in France they wanted to visit and do visit do tastings etc on why in the States let's say you're pretty far with the soy
SPEAKER_01:sauce yeah you're getting there but just to how much of a stretch that is if you look around here where it's all extend a very extractive potato carrots like there's no store there's no soil in many cases, and it's all commodity. Like that step to talking about terroir and added value, et cetera, is a massive, massive, massively very interesting and very needed to get out of the commodity system. But it's not a, like your neighbors must have still, must have looked and still look very different at you or at the family here. Is that changing this year? Like these, do you feel like there's a, the neighbor over the fence, I mean, there are no fences here, but the neighbor over the fence looking at your fields and seeing differences or seeing all these weird people that show up on the farm and the fact that you have soy sauce, et cetera, is there, have you, do you feel like there's a different energy now on this island compared to a few years ago?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I like to just...
SPEAKER_01:We have time, so go back to your... The
SPEAKER_04:changing moments, yeah, time is our friend. If you look back on... on the moment you are going to follow your courses, your study, et cetera, et cetera. And sometimes you are doing things, and if you are looking back, then everything fits to each other. And looking back from, I will be 50 next year, and I started when I was 20, for example, in those 30 years, a lot of things have happened, but they are all coming together they have all had a reason. And sometimes you don't know when you're in the moment, what is the purpose for the later years. But that is in my journey quite strong in the moment. Like,
SPEAKER_01:ah,
SPEAKER_04:that moment fits in now. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Sometimes
SPEAKER_01:it looks a little bit
SPEAKER_00:like
SPEAKER_01:the river goes this way, but there is a red line in everything. And so what's another moment apart from too much steel or too much ice? That triggered something. Whatever bubbles. And then we'll come back to the neighbors, so don't worry.
SPEAKER_04:Oh yeah, the neighbors. Yeah, I definitely feel that there is another energy around us on the island that people are getting a little bit more curious, what's happening, what are they doing, et cetera, because we live in a very conservative area. Yeah, if you do things in another way, mostly they will cut off your head. and they see that there is an an appetite to visit us in the circles a little bit more around the island international parties you can see also that yeah the more established industries etc are asking questions at the moment what are you doing how are you doing it and that's also a rebalancing act for us that we can do farm tours almost two or three times a day but yeah if they're a business model around all the things we have invested in time in building a system etc which is working now which has cost a lot of money yeah it's energy and we strongly feel that if you give good things good things will come to you
SPEAKER_01:but you can also spend all day every day doing farm tours and that's not profitable no it's a huge drain of time and has that to do with like this is a crazy year as well politically on the input sides on prices on inflation on do you feel like we're in an inflection point in terms of let's say that very input heavy industries are suffering everywhere including agriculture like if you if your input prices went two or three x up and you are were already at the edge and let's say supermarkets are not paying more three Do you feel that there's an inflection point, or is it still, it's okay to continue the current path for many? Or are many in crisis and maybe looking at other ways, or maybe taking things seriously that they looked at a few years ago, like, oh, there's alternative inputs, or oh,
SPEAKER_04:there's... It's depending. If this inflation, extremely rise of input... is continuing, things need to be changed, otherwise the system will end. If this is just a storm for one and a half year, things will get back to normal as it was. So what do you hope? I hope that the whole system, like the big oil tank, which is not steerable, is getting against the wall at high speed. So the crisis needs to become much more bigger before things are going to change because the system wants to stay in the system because it's a very profitable system. For the system. For the system, yes. And not for the farmers and not for the consumers because there are two victims of this system. That's the consumer and the farmer who are paying the bill. And that's why I don't give energy at this moment to the No, we are giving energy to our own system, our own concept of soil processing and marketing that we can build a fully autonomous system based on soil.
SPEAKER_01:So basically creating less dependent on the outside or much more untouchable, as somebody in the podcast called it a few weeks ago.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then from a position of strength and alternatives, like look, there are other ways. Building that alternative engine or whatever system next to it. Independence.
SPEAKER_04:Power. On the most extensive way is the goal. In communicating with soil, in creativity around improvement of the system, about creating creativity of the products we are making based on fermentation, about everything.
SPEAKER_01:Do you see or do you feel that, I feel that most people don't talk about it enough or don't even think about it enough, that this is a power struggle as well. We've created a system that is completely dependent on outside forces that are not sharing our agenda, let's put it quite lightly. So this is creating autonomy, creating independence, still connected systems, but way less dependent on a single large input company that gets its ingredients from wherever and ever. And this is a power struggle. This is an independence, freedom struggle that any sector probably needs to go through, but farming especially. Do you have any of those conversations with your neighbors?
SPEAKER_04:No. No, that's... I have conversations with... My most inner circle about this, because it's... Are they farmers? What is your most inner circle? My most inner circle is my wife, my children, and the core team who are building this whole system. That's the core of the core, and we are fully focused on improving this system that... it will be perfect for us to be independent, to create full autonomy. Starting with the soil, starting with the seeds, starting with the farming system, starting with the processing and starting with the sales community. So it's from soil to bottle, from soil to end product, everything is in one hand.
SPEAKER_01:And do you think that, scalable is a bad word here, but how would a vision look like for the, does every farmer need to do that? Or how would that work for, on a larger scale? Or how would that be repeated? Is that for, can we expect every farmer or every farm company to go through that journey? Or is there going to be some kind of interdependence in terms of potentially a process? processing and selling, because otherwise you have to be a jack of all trades. You have to be good at everything, from the seed all the way up to selling, which is rare and difficult.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's true, but the whole philosophy is there. I strongly believe in a regenerative family or a regenerative business or a regenerative business model or a regenerative product, meaning that you are always busy by improving and reinventing yourself. And then you become a better version of yourself, and it can be your family, your farm, your soils, et cetera. And then you are creating a uniqueness. And if you do that on the right way, that there is demand for that uniqueness, then everything is scalable. So how do you scale uniqueness? the formula for that. But if you are a super tomato grower, growing excellent tomatoes, or nutrient-dense tomatoes, it's about your focus point, and there is a market for it, you can grow.
SPEAKER_02:And
SPEAKER_04:maybe you have to think a little bit more in, let's say, units instead of big worldwide companies. Because there's also scalability in 20, 20 units, which can be a big unit. Which is how nature operates. Yes. It's scalability in ecosystems. And repeatability almost. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But it clashes with our
SPEAKER_04:current. Meaning that the ketchup you make from those tomatoes is maybe of a different taste in Africa or in southern Europe or in Canada.
SPEAKER_01:From your experience, the consumer, because you go all the way down to the bottle in this case, maybe even the bottle of ketchup, are we, consumers is a bad word, are we ready for that role to accept that this barrel tastes different than that barrel? or this bottle of tomato sauce or tastes slightly different because it's a different year, et cetera, et cetera, or your beans taste slightly different.
SPEAKER_04:It's a mindset. It's a mindset.
SPEAKER_01:Are we ready for that? I mean, you're proving it. We are. For the soy sauce, we absolutely are. For wine, we've accepted that. In a long time for coffee, we're there as well, chocolate. I mean, but also for potatoes, also for quote-unquote more boring things. Do you think there's a... an inherent longing for the terroir as a participant, as somebody that ends up eating what you have produced.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but maybe the whole mind shift is going... very slowly because also time is our friend and that people get a little bit more awake about what they are eating. because a lot of people don't know exactly what they are eating with the result that we have created also a world, which is called the pharmacy at this moment, where we are earning a lot of money and spending a lot of money to medicines, et cetera, et cetera. So if you see the development of the insurance costs, health insurance costs, and if that's still a very steep line in the future, there is a economical way that people are going to get awake hey are we good in what we are doing and that we are eating and then maybe there is a an eye-opener for the people that say maybe we have to find ways where we can find healthier or more tasteful food because if it's healthier most of the time is more tasteful
SPEAKER_01:so have the hospitals and insurance companies like health insurance companies have Have they been on the farm?
SPEAKER_04:Hospitals, they have been on the farm.
SPEAKER_01:And what is their... Because now we're getting into the nutrient density part, soil health part. How was that? Did you get like a bus of doctors or what was the... We get
SPEAKER_04:the staff.
SPEAKER_01:Because we're back to the farm tours that you have to turn into a business. The
SPEAKER_04:management of a big hospital in the Netherlands, they were here to look at the beehives as an interesting part around biodiversity and we did quite an open presentation interaction about how I see what is the pharmacy of the future which is soil and It was a super interactive, interesting, in-depth discussion. It was a little bit like a U-turn discussion. where they came to the conclusion that the system we are building at the moment, which is called nature, we are not building it, we are... Facilitating. Yes. And that they have lost it also. Economy has lost ecology, but the hospitals has also lost ecology, or the nature and the natural power to get more healthier. So I gave them some results of studies of researchers in relationship to the recovery after a long surgery, which are quite impressive figures. So I asked, as a conclusion, when can we start a collaboration between, hey, the farmer, the hospital, can I bring... How many potatoes do you need? Yes. And the conclusion was that they didn't have a kitchen anymore in the hospital. They already had a pharmacy. They had outsourced it in five year tender that yeah people need to have food but yeah if it comes in a box it's also fine yeah we have to heat it up and that's it but that's the system we have created where money it was dominant because everything is about cost price and earning money
SPEAKER_01:And so when will that moment, I mean, it's impossible to predict, but when those costs, it's the same cost curve that you've seen on the smaller scale on the farm, obviously, like inputs going up, yields going plateauing or going down. The same we see with our health. Input costs are, the costs are going up and the outcome is getting worse, basically. what's the wall there? How is that supertanker going to hit some resistance at some point? Or we're just going to add, I just got my new insurance bill for next year, and of course it augmented quite a bit. When is somebody going to say, okay, this is just... Or does this get way worse? I don't know, spend 30, 40, 50% of our total budget on healthcare before we get awake? Or what do you see there? Because it seems like health is sort of the... I mean, water holding capacity is the most important thing, but health seems to be the entry point for the rest of society to get on board with this. But if the current system is insurance, insurance, insurance, and hospital, hospital, hospital, and we outsource our food production, what do you see there as a, are we close to an inflection point there, or are we still quite far away? Because they are super enthusiastic, and then they say, yeah, but we outsourced our food for five years, so come back in five.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think... We are not there yet, reflecting to the enormous high energy prices at the moment, where people have to pay three times the same amount of money for the same amount of energy or gas, and there is not still strikes and public disobedience, or what is it called, demonstrations for those energy prices. Yeah, there was a little bit buzz in the media, but it's not there yet. It's
SPEAKER_01:not bad enough yet. Not bad enough yet. You would expect three times. I've seen seven times in some places.
SPEAKER_04:And we are still continuing. Yes. So...
SPEAKER_01:So just keep building on the alternative system, keep grinding away, not plowing, but keep building and building and building and building.
SPEAKER_04:The conclusion is the pain is not painful enough
SPEAKER_01:yet. So is that the mission we have now to keep building until the pain gets enough in the different systems for a bigger shift, like a 10% shift or 15 or whatever, the tipping points. I mean, there's a lot of research into that. But is that what we can do or can we, we cannot increase the pain that would be? I
SPEAKER_04:think we have to have the faith and the trust that things are going to change. If that's in two, three, or five years, that's not, or maybe it takes a generation. What gives you the trust? There's trust in our system because we get the rewardance that we're doing good things. That gives you trust. And that there are people who wants to buy your stuff, which is paying the bills. That gives you trust also. So there is a growing appetite of people who are reaching out to us. Hey, we have heard about you. We have heard good things about you. We have heard that you are building soils, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, what gives us trust that the amount of people who are entering into our energy at this moment is growing. That gives us trust. And hope. It gives us trust that people who are, that the people are leaving the farm or the brewery whatever, that they are touched in their heart, that they get emotional, that they say, hey, stop. It's too much at the moment. This is really mind-blowing what you're doing. And it's starting small. It's like putting a stone in the water. It's like a metaphor, but it's how it works.
SPEAKER_01:Are you hopeful? Sorry? Are you hopeful? It's a question I keep, like the last few episodes, sometimes it comes up. Are you, from what you see outside, from what you emerged literally in nature, you keep talking about trust, but are you also hopeful?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. But not giving too much attention to the outside world at the moment, not giving too much attention to all the media at the moment focus on what we are doing and we get more questions how how how how how yeah but we don't know how everything works but that means us that we want to go more in depth also
SPEAKER_01:Does this journey make you humble as well? Like there are so many questions on the fields, on everything. Yeah, but if you're doing it together,
SPEAKER_04:then it's not so complicated because you can...
SPEAKER_01:Together meaning with your team, together with nature? With
SPEAKER_04:the team, with nature also. But then there's always a priority in question questions and if you just prioritize them you can say oh let's we focus on that question that and if you go to your fields and you are in your fields there's always one big thing popping up which is important at this moment the plants and the soils are always telling you this is the important thing so you walk in your fields
SPEAKER_01:you try to get into your zen space, and it tells you what needs to be done. So when you're overwhelmed, when you're completely, your phone is ringing nonstop, I don't know how many messages, et cetera, you go into your field, or one of the fields, to tune in. You cannot do this from the tractor, I'm imagining. You have to tune
SPEAKER_04:in into your crop, into your barrels, into your, and when you tune in, there's always the most important thing to do at the moment. And it's always, like what comes up at that point If you wake up in the morning, if you listen carefully, there's always one important thing which needs to be done today.
SPEAKER_01:And what if you wake up and you're completely overwhelmed with to-do lists, emails, et cetera? What do you do? Do those days happen or you usually wake up relatively zen?
SPEAKER_04:No, absolutely not. But it's getting back to the essence after a very busy period. And if you listen carefully to your body, your body is telling you, hey, You are totally disattracted from the core things because you are busy with your action lists, with deadlines, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All the things need to be done, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Get back to the silence first, and then all the beautiful things are popping up. Most of the time, Sunday mornings, I go walking in nature, et cetera. A lot of answers to questions are popping up. Is that your meditation? Do you meditate? Yes, we do. How fundamental is that? What is that? It's extremely fundamental, but when it's busy, you say, oh, not today. Oh, let's wake up one half hour, a half hour earlier because I need to do that and that. I need to be in Amsterdam at nine o'clock. You forget it. So that's the thing.
SPEAKER_01:Do you notice then if you don't do that for... If you're honest to yourself, you notice it. If you don't, you get hit at some point. Yeah. And has that ability to sense or listen or even understand the language of a field changed over the last years? Do you get better? It's not the right word. Do you get more in tune, more able to listen, more able to translate what it's saying? And what is it, I mean, for somebody that doesn't walk fields very, I mean, I walk them, but not my fields every day, et cetera. How would you describe that feeling? This field needs this, like how? I'm not saying how does it tell you, but how does it feel?
SPEAKER_04:After this conversation, we are going out with an ecologist to our fields and we are going to dig holes and to see what the roots of the cover crops are telling us. not the above ground biomass, then what are the roots telling us?
SPEAKER_01:And you see that by smelling, by seeing, by touching. By seeing,
SPEAKER_04:by structure. You're seeing by the depth of the roots, by the thickness of the roots, by the color of the roots, by the diversity of the roots, by everything.
SPEAKER_01:And by now you have seen so many roots that you immediately see, okay, good, okay-ish, or it needs X, Y, Z.
SPEAKER_04:Can we see the big soil animals? We cannot see bacteria and fungi. We go in-depth into bacteria and fungi this winter. But what is life telling you? Because people, they have an attitude, a non-verbal communication. Plants have also, soils have also.
SPEAKER_01:And what are the big differences like on a conventional plot compared to the ones that have been on a journey for a long time? When you dig that hole and you see the cover crops, what's the story?
SPEAKER_04:There is a simple comparison that if you have a, let's say, a conventional plot without a lot of soil health a lot of biology and you are working on that field it's quiet literally quiet yes and if you are going to work on a field where the biology is much much better when there is much more soil life within 20 minutes the birds are there and you haven't called them you haven't sent them a a message to reward you that they have beautiful worms or something like that. That's how the system works. You're not sending a message, but they instinctively know, hey, this is good shit.
SPEAKER_01:This is a good lunch, yeah. And they are there out of nothing. We're following you probably. They know, they get the message. And I mean, some regenerative farmers or farmers that have been farming regeneratively would say it's a lot more fun as well, a lot more complex and complicated and there are endless questions, et cetera. Would you describe this way of living and way of farming, but it comes from a way of living as well, as much more enjoyable and more Definitely, definitely.
SPEAKER_04:There's no doubt, but it's real fun. We are super grateful about what's happening. What I said also that we are proud. On the other hand, it's becoming more difficult, way more difficult because you can destroy the things you've built so quickly because it's such a vulnerable, let's say, fragile fragile system that you can destroy it with entering it on wet conditions or wrong conditioning conditions or with wrong air pressure in your tires etc etc so the you have to to be super careful of what you're doing and ask and I'm asking the team it every day what we are going to do now is that improving soil or helping the plants yes or no does it make it more scary as well it's not scary it's it's being in the moment of what you're doing and sometimes you have to do to make an intervention which is not super good for the soil because yeah the weather forecast is not so good and we want to harvest yes but then it's a total clear decision that we are going to enter this field now and that we accept that the soil quality is going to be down a little bit. But what's the next step to improve it again? So yes, it's more enjoyable. Yes, it's becoming from the amateur league to the Champions League in farming.
SPEAKER_01:Do you really see
SPEAKER_04:that?
SPEAKER_01:Like this is the absolute cutting edge of farming is this space. And there are not so many globally. Not yet. That you can... compare notes with, or at least share notes. No, the
SPEAKER_04:beautiful thing is that the whole community of region ag farmers is extremely open towards each other, extremely. Much more than conventional farmers? Yeah, that they find each other in a very natural way. There was a guy on the farm working for a big consultancy company. I know who you mean. I told him that I was planning and vacation in South Africa. And that's the right person to talk to. Immediately four emails popped up on a Sunday morning with introductions to regenerative farmers in South Africa. I wrote them an email back and Bob, yes, you're welcome. Let's have a good conversation about RegenEgg. I will show you everything, et cetera. Totally open.
SPEAKER_00:That's amazing.
SPEAKER_04:It's, yeah, and this one guy was making vinegar and that guy was managing 500 cows on a very regenerative way. But it's all about the system and getting the business model fit around Regenec. That's the game. Staying
SPEAKER_01:in business and staying alive. Wow. The big system starts to slowly shift.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Staying in the game,
SPEAKER_04:basically. Staying in the game by having connection to a end consumer.
SPEAKER_01:And because you've tried it many times also in this whole short value chains and etc. And at the moment it wasn't so successful.
SPEAKER_04:No, it was not successful. It was not there. But looking back that it was an enormous hard learning curve.
SPEAKER_01:At this scale, it's not that you can go to a farmer's market. No. You need a lot of bags of beans, potatoes etc
SPEAKER_04:but it was a real hard learning curve and and if you look back are you happy you did it at that point because you invested in companies
SPEAKER_01:as well you have set up a number of ones here in Rotterdam and then
SPEAKER_04:looking back it was all worth it but it has it has forced us to come to the real essence of farming making products and connecting to the consumer and my My wife is always telling it. If you hit the bottom of the swimming pool, you can jump enormously fast, of high or powerful.
SPEAKER_01:Which is a funny metaphor. We use it in impact investing and tonic as well. But then on another side, like the swimming pool where you're in the deeper end of the pool where you don't feel the bottom, because that's the scary bit. But that's also the interesting piece, because if you can feel the bottom, of course you can jump, but you can you still are in the safe space and it feels like here and many other farmers are exploring pieces and ways of creating life literally and trying to create a system which improves over time and harvest enough to keep the system pay for the system it's a task we which is an enormous task enormous balancing act between entering that field because you have to harvest and you know you're gonna push back soil health a bit and like taking that decision and day in, day out is something I don't think most people
SPEAKER_04:understand. What we're always saying is that we're not going to claim things. We always say a chance for everybody is not a chance. So you have to reinvent yourself. And then there are, let's say, examples how it could be done. So it's much more of a personal journey.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:For a farmer, for a land
SPEAKER_04:seller. If you want to be very successful in regenerative farming, you have to change your mindset first.
SPEAKER_01:And I would argue in any sector. Because what you're learning here, that's part of the series as well, is applicable to health, probably living, education. mobility, whatever other sector we can...
SPEAKER_04:Education, very interesting case.
SPEAKER_01:How many other hours do we have? Time is our friend. Very interesting case. What makes you say
SPEAKER_04:that? Education is a big thing in Regenec at this moment. And we have experienced quite an intensive... Example with our son. He was in let's say old school education farming But growing up on a regenerative farm and Yeah Yeah, that was clashing. It was like yeah, there was one Institute pulling on one leg. Yeah, you have to learn and to do what was old school and you have those you have to give those answers in your exams and There was the situation at home who was pulling on the other leg, let's say, yeah, we do it on a different way. So he was always discussing it with his professors, with his teachers. Should I answer this question the way you
SPEAKER_01:want me to answer or the way I know it should be? Yes.
SPEAKER_04:Which has resulted that he was totally not happy anymore with the existing school system and that he quitted school. But now we are in the situation that he's learning it on a totally different way He's going to do internships, et cetera, et cetera. He's going to do some courses. I take him with him to colleagues which are farming regenerative. We go on. You have to basically build the school yourself. So education. On top of all the other things. Yes. The regenerative school is not there yet. But that has the result that he doesn't have the right diploma at this moment in the existing system. which is a very strange situation because I'm 100% convinced that he will be super successful in the things he likes to do.
SPEAKER_01:But you need, which I think many parents recognize from struggles with the traditional school system in general and alternative schools, et cetera, that you still at the end need some kind of paper while you are prepared for life way better than many other school systems do. And in ag, it's exactly the same. Like the reality of a place where we're now is way ahead of any farming school or any farming university or any applied university you can get. So what do you do? Do you go there and struggle for four years and fill out the answers they want to hear while you know that the rest of the world has moved on or not, but then you don't have the paper. So now he's not going to half the paper. Is that an issue? Because I know like in France you need to be an official farmer and went to farming school before you can actually are allowed to farm.
SPEAKER_04:It's not an issue, but the system has made it an issue.
SPEAKER_01:So you're going to start an official region farming school?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, no, no, no. No, we're focusing on those things. Yes, we invest in soil, in barrels and knowledge. That are the three mantras we have. But the business model of knowledge is not there yet.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe start with farm tours and then slowly build up. It's a big one. And so... As we're slowly winding down this interview, I mean, time is our friend, but at some point it's done. As we're getting closer to the end of the year, the days are getting darker, or we're getting closer to the shortest day, it's also a time to think and reflect, as we've done to this year. But what are you excited about for the next year? What's the most exciting piece now? If you can share, obviously, whatever is not top secret, because there are some pieces of this farm that are on this journey what excites you the most if you had to pick one thing now like maybe not even next year but like I know it's coming we're working on something or we're gonna work at some point on XYZ and it's just really really exciting what are you looking forward to the most
SPEAKER_04:I look forward the most thing to making the next step in perfectionism of the holistic regenerative farming system meaning there is space for improvement for the biofertilizers. There is space for improvement of our own seeds. There is space to improvement for the inoculants. There is space to improvement for the cover crop mixes. There is space to improvement for our soil biology development. There is space to improvement for the quantum farming part. So lots of possibilities.
SPEAKER_01:Incremental.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, but what I learned is that you're not focusing on one thing, focus on the system. so that meaning that you have to improve all the parts of the system a little bit to get the whole system on a higher level
SPEAKER_01:you're saying i'm not missing one piece it would be amazing to have xyz but i want to improve every single one piece by piece because i know the system will start to keep coming back to the orchestra metaphor singing better or playing music
SPEAKER_04:better we started with an orchestra and every single thing in the orchestra every single instrument of the orchestra needs to be fine-tuned.
SPEAKER_01:And are you adding other pieces to the orchestra? Are there pieces you feel missing? Like we're not working on this yet, but it would be really... If I had unlimited time and resources, I would also start working on this because it feels like a missing instrument in the orchestra at the moment. Or are you saying, actually, we have quite a nice mix and we have to keep improving the quality of the... and how they sing together?
SPEAKER_04:I think the... I think the recipe for the mix of our regenerative system is ready. But there is a way to improve the ingredients of the recipe and maybe we are going to change some cooking techniques to create the right three Michelin star dish in regenerative farming. Not talking about products, but talking about the growing system in the plants and soil.
SPEAKER_01:And do you feel confident enough to, let's say the neighbor calls or whatever on this island and says, I have a hundred hectares, please do quote unquote it, like start applying it here. Relatively similar soils, of course, relatively similar climate. I'm not saying somebody in the East that calls or someone in Germany, et cetera, which is very different. Do you feel confident enough? Like, okay, we can start kick-starting the journey, maybe go faster than the seven years. Or do you feel a place of confidence or you say let's first experiment a lot more an hour
SPEAKER_04:we are fully confident about that it can go faster than we've done it of course because we've paid the price for failures and are those questions coming yes they are people are knocking on the door help us help us and we are looking for the model how are we going to do that and how are we going to reward ourselves and Yeah, there is a business model in soil improvement, that's for sure. So can we be paid for the soil improvement service as it is as a very simple thing?
SPEAKER_01:And if you had to choose, what would you want to be your, I mean, very non-physiological KPI, like what do you want to be paid for? Is it water holding capacity? If you had to pick one thing and said, okay, if we get it from this to that, you pay me, if we don't, what would you naturally go to if
SPEAKER_04:it's not one thing that's the thing
SPEAKER_01:like how do you so how would you be paid then like what are what are good indicators that you've done your job in case you
SPEAKER_04:it's it's it's the whole soil health indicator which is divided into different kpis let's say what all the capacity biodiversity in and above the soil the physical structure of the soil the chemical structure all those things are together compared in one figure which is called the soil health health index, which need to be improved, that's the parameter we're talking about. And then you are increasing the internal values of soils, which are an indicator for the external value of soil.
SPEAKER_01:It should be.
SPEAKER_04:It's a
SPEAKER_01:whole different subject on land ownership and connection of prices here. Do you see any changes before we open a complete rabbit hole again? Like in the Netherlands or in Western Europe, we often hear that prices are very high and not necessarily connected to, let's say, the underlying health indicators of the soil. Is there more discussion about that? Like how to bring them back into balance also there? Like prices, land pieces are being sold for are not connected to what you see you can do on it.
SPEAKER_04:For me, it's an insurance in the biggest asset you have, soil capital. And when the market is going down fast, because we... we are not earning money anymore because of our external circumstances, et cetera. I'm 100% convinced that the top soils will keep their values. The best soils, yeah. The best soils. With the best top soils. There's always demand for the best soils.
SPEAKER_01:So even if you're very cynical on a lot of things, it's an insurance policy to have healthy soils and all the other
SPEAKER_04:benefits. And you don't want to destroy it anymore because your business models are based on your soil health. So the what if question is asked a lot of time what if yeah but a farmer never wants to destroy his system where he's where is that that's the the basis of life of of of the whole income stream of him he doesn't want to destroy that
SPEAKER_01:and yet why why
SPEAKER_04:should you destroy your lifeline
SPEAKER_01:As we all created a system that rewarded that or only asked one yield question, that was it. I think it's a good place to end. And I want to thank you so much for, first of all, allowing us to film here, taking the time and creating the space for this conversation and for the journey we've been on over the last years.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and we will keep on with that journey. We're not ready yet.
SPEAKER_01:Will you ever be ready? What is ready?
SPEAKER_04:Ready is that we're sitting on a couch you watching over regenerative fields. I will never retire, but I will, hopefully there's more time in the month for doing other things than the things we're doing now. But that we are super proud of the whole system at scale we have built based on just soil improvements and integrating nature in the whole farming system.
SPEAKER_01:I think even more than integrating nature, like really, let's say, dancing with or following or facilitating. When you started this whole conversation, it's a nice circle, actually, that you are very, very proud of this year. So maybe you are. I mean, there's a bench downstairs, but there's a bench to sit on and look at on the field, even in a November day where it's gray, but still look proud of what has
SPEAKER_04:shifted or has... 15 years ago, everything was gray and brown and everything was plowed. Now, we're sitting on that bench and there's life everywhere. The whole farm is full with cover crops. The whole farm is full with life. In November, in December, in January, the birds are there, the flowers are still there. So
SPEAKER_01:imagine in 15 years.
SPEAKER_04:And we've planted trees and we are going to plant hedges now and all those things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I don't think it's the last time we... No,
SPEAKER_04:I was reading a study of a Japanese professor. What the function is of birds early in the morning when they are whistling, it's to open a very biological term in the leaves that photosynthesis will start that day.
SPEAKER_01:So the birds trigger with their tone the photosynthesis. So without the birds, there's less or...
SPEAKER_04:And if you want to have birds, you have to have trees and hedges, etc. Because otherwise they don't come. It's so simple-logical. It's so
SPEAKER_01:simple. It's really simple. It's very complex, but it's very simple.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but there is a famous football trainer who always says, if you can see it, then you understand it, or the other way around, it doesn't matter. I
SPEAKER_01:think with that quote, I think it's kind of... Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Once you see it, you cannot unsee it. I think in region, it's definitely the case. I think with that, we wrap up. We can talk another four hours, but time is our friend and ending this conversation now. So thank you so much for allowing us to take the time.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Cool.
SPEAKER_02:Brilliant.
SPEAKER_01:That's a wrap. Thank you so much for watching till the end. And I hope you enjoyed this first episode, first filmed episode of the conversation series of the podcast as well. And I really, really enjoyed it. Let us know in the comments below, reach out through the website, through our social media, et cetera, what you think, what we can improve, who we should interview next. And I absolutely hope to see you, to hear you obviously at the next one, because this is something that I hope we'll be doing more often to have the time to go deep with the absolute regenerative pioneers of the era we live in. So thank you so much for watching, listening, wherever you are. Get in touch if you have feedback, ideas, etc. And see you at the next one. Thanks again and see you next time.
