213 Erin Martin – Saving $750K by providing nutrient dense fruit and vegetables to 50 people with severe diabetes for 12 months

A conversation with Erin Martin, director of Fresh RX, about insurance providers and what is holding them back, why we haven’t seen any outcome-based structures being set up, where is the first social impact bond in healthy nutrient-dense food, savings, diet-related diseases and more.

This episode is part of the Nutrient Density in Food series!
This series is supported by the A Team Foundation, who support food and land projects that are ecologically, economically and socially conscious. They contribute to the wider movement that envisions a future where real food is produced by enlightened agriculture and access to it is equal. The A Team are looking to make more investments and grants in the space of bionutrients. You can find out more on ateamfoundation.org.

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What happens when you give nutrient-dense, locally grown fruit and vegetables to people suffering from severe diet-related diseases like diabetes? Discover how a program in Tulsa Oklahoma is trying to prove just that: healthy food grown in healthy soils leads to healthier people.

More about this episode on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/erin-martin.

Find our video course on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/course.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:30 Why are you doing what you are doing? Why Soil?
• 23:48 What should smart investors, who want to invest in Reg ag and food look out for?
• 32:00 What would you do if you were in charge of a 1B investment portfolio tomorrow morning?
• 38:25 If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing overnight
• 43:15 What do you believe is true about regenerative agriculture that others don’t believe to be true? Inspired by John Kempf

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

What happens when you give nutrient-dense locally grown fruit and vegetables to people suffering from severe diet-related diseases like diabetes? Even though we might not know all the details of how nutrients get from healthy soils into our bodies, that shouldn't stop us from getting better diets to people in need now. The savings are enormous, but how do we finance it? What is holding insurance providers back and why haven't we seen any outcome-based structures being set up? Where's the first social impact bond, which isn't really a bond, but still in healthy, nutrient-dense food. Join us today in discovering how a program in Tulsa, Oklahoma is trying to prove just that. Healthy food grown in healthy soils lead to healthier people, especially people with diet-related diseases like diabetes, who run an enormous risk on kidney failure, strokes, and much worse. Making sure they get access to healthier fruits and vegetables and cooking classes dramatically reduces these risks in as little as 12 months. What are the connections between healthy farming practices, healthy soil, healthy produce, healthy gut, and healthy people? Welcome to a special series where we go deep into the relationship between regenerative agriculture practices that build soil health and the nutritional quality of the food we end up eating. We unpack the current state of science, the role of investments, businesses, nonprofits, entrepreneurs, and more. This series is supported by the A-Team Foundation, who support food and land projects that are ecologically, economically, and socially conscious. They contribute or get in touch directly info at a team foundation.org or check the information in the show notes below. Welcome to another episode, today with the director of FreshRx Oklahoma. FreshRx Oklahoma sources local and regeneratively grown nutrient-dense organic vegetables and fruits to program participants while stimulating local economy by supporting small and local farmers. There are a lot of very interesting buzzwords to unpack in that introduction. So I'm very happy to have Erin here on the show to explain more about FreshRx and what role it plays in this transition. So welcome, Erin.

SPEAKER_01: 2:26

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00: 2:29

And to start with a personal question, we always like to ask at the beginning, what brings you to the space? brings you to use those buzzwords, regeneratively grown, nutrient-dense organic vegetables in ascenders like that, especially around health? What brings you to work on the health and the soil side of things?

SPEAKER_01: 2:49

It wasn't really a direct path like most people. We've

SPEAKER_00: 2:55

had many wandering stories on the first half an hour of this podcast, so please take it

SPEAKER_01: 2:59

away. I bet. Yeah, definitely a wandering story, but definitely a direct connection after really learning about it. I come from the background of long-term care. So I worked with predominantly older adults. My master's is in gerontology, the study of aging. And it was through really seeing the systems of aging, what food people had access to, how many prescription drugs they were on, how many chronic conditions they had, and looking at that from a very serious pandemic standpoint. Diabetes is skyrocketing. By the time you're 50 years old in the least one chronic condition. And 65 year olds in the United States are on an average of 15 prescription drugs per year. And so it was learning this, going through different levels and working in different levels of care for older adults that I really saw that food was the thing that people were eating most of the time ingesting into their bodies. And I really didn't know anything about regenerative agriculture. But I traveled to Italy, I am sensitive to gluten and dairy but I could eat a whole pizza there and be fine and so I thought it's got to be the food like this

SPEAKER_00: 4:13

is did you dare to try because that could also be you travel you travel to Italy and you say no but I'm sensitive so I'm not even trying what made you try

SPEAKER_01: 4:21

well I could tell that things were a lot more fresh and I had kind of learned that just through different people I had talked to and just the general understanding about food systems a little bit at the time but I really hadn't dove into regenerative agriculture. And it was really funny because I was actually dating a ex-husband of a woman who was running Kiss the Ground at the time. And I just knew her as like a fellow co-parent and I just really admired her work. And I had asked her if I could get into the soil advocacy program. So I went into that program, not knowing that had any connection with my work, funny enough. And of course, very quickly, after reading a lot of science, I really connected longevity, successful aging, human rights to regenerative agriculture. And I was astounded by the connection between soil health practices and nutrient density and how that would affect someone's health and quality of life.

SPEAKER_00: 5:26

And then, I mean, seeing that connection, I mean, we we've had, uh, actually at this time it's probably Finian, the interview with, with Finian of, of Kiss the Ground is out as well. We've had Lauren on the show, um, somewhere last year and which I'm guessing is the connection there. And, but then going from, because many people have gone through that program and then turning that into, of course it changes you on a personal level and on your, but turning it into work is, is, is often a step or, or, and like, how did that happen going from, okay, this now I'm equipped with this knowledge and how do I put it to work or how do I do something with this, with the tools that I now have?

SPEAKER_01: 6:04

Sure. So at the time I was just seeing one-on-one clients and so it helped them kind of change their lifestyle. A lot of them would come off all of their drugs and get better, but I really started putting it to work during the pandemic, believe it or not. In 2020, there was a lot of needs in the community and a lot of needs and systems that had been cracked before, but the pandemic pandemic really showed us the additional cracks and how big the cracks were in all these systems. And so food and access to food was a major issue. And I started volunteering in Tulsa, predominantly the North Tulsa area that is a food desert, didn't have a grocery store for 14 years. And that was a major need. And I saw kind of what organizations were doing what and what food was available. And it still was terrible food. And I was really sad that we would be giving terrible food to people who who have chronic conditions, which would be making them worse. And I thought, and these are people of color, low income, like how deserving this is to people. And so there was a doctor in North Tulsa that wanted to do a produce prescription program for his clients in North Tulsa who have uncontrolled type two diabetes. They were compliant, they would come to their doctor's visits, they would take their medications, but their diabetes was just still getting worse. It was uncontrolled. They were at incredible risk to have a stroke, kidney failure, failure, death, or an amputation, and they really needed assistance. And I was asked by that clinic and by some other community members to fundraise for a program called FreshRx. We based this off of several other studies and programs that have been done in the United States. There's been about 200 done. Geisinger study was the one we based ours off of, which was a combination of local food or fruits and vegetables and education. But I said, if we're going to source food, We're going to do it locally and we're going to do it regeneratively. And people said, good luck. You'll never be able to do that. And I was like, good. I like a challenge. And so

SPEAKER_00: 8:06

because it wasn't, they didn't believe that you could find it or that would be too expensive or both.

SPEAKER_01: 8:12

Both. Yeah. It'd be too expensive. We wouldn't have it available. We definitely wouldn't have had it available year round. But we have, we have found it and we've created a cohort of farmers. We have food year around every two weeks we haven't stopped since july of 2021 wow

SPEAKER_00: 8:31

and so just to paint a picture because we've had some interviews and then it sort of stopped there like okay let's just go for local and organic but then that regenerative and soil piece seems to be i wouldn't say missing but it hasn't been part of many of these prescription um let's say diets or boxes and then for a while like what do you felt like was missing like isn't it just good enough to go for the locally seasonal and organic and then sort of stop there? Why did you want it to push further, let's say, into the soil piece? And is that really changing something? Aren't we getting like 80% there with the seasonal and organic stuff? And is the soil piece so fundamental?

SPEAKER_01: 9:14

Yeah, I learned a lot. And being in, now speaking at a lot of different agricultural conferences, I really saw that even in certain studies by David Montgomery and other people with the Bionutrient Association with Dan Kittredge, I really saw that things that were grown from good soil, whether it was organic or not, it's a really holistic system. So if there were just no tilling and doing organic, but they don't have any other holistic practices, it's not as likely that it would be nutrient dense. I also wanted to stimulate local economy at the same time, but I wanted to support farmers who were treating the soil well. And it's also carbon and capturing more so it's affecting the climate at the same time and animal health and it's definitely creating I think a healthier microbiome in the soil and in our guts and so I do believe that regenerative food tastes better even than organic that it's more nutrient dense that's my belief based on the things I've read and learned and from seeing the food and tasting it myself taste test is the number one test for sure and we have been told time and time again we have the most beautiful food that tastes the best. And I do believe that our food will be higher quality than what is found in a Whole Foods or a Sprouts and definitely better than anyone that our program has access to, which mostly is from a Walmart and things like that.

SPEAKER_00: 10:43

So what is the program, if you had to describe it? You mentioned every two weeks we have year-round food. For whom is the program and what does it entail?

SPEAKER_01: 10:53

FreshRx Oklahoma is a produce prescription program. It's where doctors actually prescribe fruits and vegetables. They are looked at to find people who have type 2 diabetes who are North Tulsa residents. We have the highest rate of diabetes in the entire state of Oklahoma in that area and the highest mortality rate there. So that was a diet-related disease that we started with. We're going to be broadening that to do pre-diabetes and other issues, but that's just what we started with. We for a 12-month period. So people who have type 2 diabetes who live in North Tulsa, they get free food for 12 months. Every two weeks, they get fruits and vegetables. And they also have correlating recipes that go with that food. And then we also have cooking and nutrition classes, about four opportunities a month for them to go for 12 months. And we do a lot of data metrics. We are looking at several different things from food security to healthcare utilization But we're also measuring their health metrics, their A1C, their weight, and their blood pressure. And we measure that every three months so we can see how people are progressing. In our first year, we had some really incredible outcomes. And so now we're seeing 100 people. We've doubled the size of the program. And most recently have been funded for the next three years through the USDA NIFA grant for the Gusnip Produce Prescription Grant. So we'll be on the national level contributing that data to move the needle along. And so,

SPEAKER_00: 12:28

I mean, it's a natural bridge or a natural follow-up question. You said we have seen some very incredible results in only 12 months, which is a lot of time and nothing at all in a lifetime. So what stands out or what are some interesting things that you might not have expected when you, I mean, of course you expect people to get slightly healthier or quite a bit healthier, maybe lose some weight, maybe some diabetes impact, but what surprised you?

SPEAKER_01: 12:54

Yeah, so many things surprised me. me our goal originally based on other programs was to reduce people's a1c by one to two percent in the year that would equate

SPEAKER_00: 13:04

just for yeah just for for complete newbies what what is what does it mean in plain

SPEAKER_01: 13:10

english so a um hemoglobin a1c is is really a way they measure uh where you are with your diabetes when you have diabetes you have an a1c level that's over a six and that's kind of the pre-diabetes area then when you get up higher you have full-blown diabetes when you have uncontrolled diabetes it's at an eight and so that's really severe at an eight a1c is where your your chances of being having kidney failure stroke all these things skyrocket and they actually stop measuring at a 14 so it's measured all the way from like five as a normal up to 14 so we were seeing people in the 11s 12s 13 14 so that's the high end of the spectrum so you can see when it's measured just to a 14, a one to 2% reduction is huge. It's actually equated to 16 to$24,000 per year in healthcare cost prevention and savings by one to 2%. So our goal was to at least reduce it by one to 2%. We would love to have people that were at a 14 fall below an eight because it minimizes those risks for those catastrophic health events. So our goal was one to 2%. Our average of the people who have of reduction in our program, which was about 36 people out of 50. They had some type of reduction in their A1C and their average reduction was 2.2%. And we had the largest reduction was from a 14 to a 6.9. And that was only in six months. Some people even came off of their insulin shots and were able to take kind of less intense medications and kind of taper off. We had people who felt less anxious, less depressed, who started new healthy relationships. relationships, the ripple effect was just enormous. We estimated that with just 50 people, we saved the state of Oklahoma nearly a quarter of a million dollars, and it only cost us about$150,000 to do it. So you invest 150 grand and save 750. The ROI makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_00: 15:17

Absolutely. Yeah. And so now you go to 100 and slightly earlier in the spectrum as well. You mentioned pre diabetes does that have to change like what did you learn sorry on the protein side like the are you making changes there as well in terms of what fits better to to get those numbers down let's

SPEAKER_01: 15:38

say um you know if something is grown healthy and it's grown in healthy soil it's going to be nutrient dense it's going to have vitamins and minerals we do make sure that we have a plethora of variety of crops so that people are getting a well-rounded diet as far as their vegetables selection. We have improved on our culturally appropriate foods because obviously some people aren't interested in certain things or they'd love to see, for example, our clientele really wanted to see collard greens. And so we commissioned a farmer to grow those for us where they didn't, the farmer had to have no reason to grow those because that's not something typically someone would buy at a farmer's market necessarily in our area. It just wasn't available. And so we We are just trying to get better at offering more things that people are maybe familiar with while also really showing them new things that they can try and how to do that. And then we're also limited on what we can grow here and what's easier to grow here. I try to get the farmers to do certain things. We provide a lot of support for them to have high and low tunnels so they can kind of change seasons. And so we're trying to get better at diversifying the crops And just really making sure that the farmers are supported in their soil health practices. We do use the Haney test to look at some of the soil on some of our farmers. Some of them are regeneratively certified through soil regions process and making sure that they're continually building their soil organic matter. Because the more you have of that in the soil, the more likely the food is going to be more nutrient dense. And so that's really been a big concern of mine us. we move forward.

SPEAKER_00: 17:27

And in terms of for a family or a person, like how much of this is going to be their diet? Is this a full, like what are you targeting to replace? Because obviously you come, many will come from quite a poor diet, but at the Walmarts, et cetera, of this world, and the shift is going to be enormous. Like, is that a one, a zero to one shift, or is it 50% of their diet or a hundred? Or what do you, are you nudging them? Like, okay, this is, this is what taste could look like. And, and expanding on that because of course they're not living by themselves they're living in families in many cases like what what are you doing there to to make sure that yeah it's not just a nice to help

SPEAKER_01: 18:07

them yeah we're trying to help them definitely make better choices when they're shopping and outside of the food that we provide we definitely want them to be eating at least half their diet and vegetables we help them change their habit but really the intention and other studies have proven that if you just increase their consumption of fruits and vegetables, we're not really changing their whole diet. We're just increasing their consumption of fruits and vegetables. And through just simply increasing that and increasing their knowledge, they definitely make different choices. But we're not telling them, you know, you can't have meat, you can't have dairy. We just want them to have more fruits and vegetables in their diet. And that's been proven to be to have direct impact on these health outcomes, whether they really change much their diet or not a lot of them are working with dieticians to make sure that they're quitting drinking soda and things like that so some of them have already made those changes they're still making those changes but our job is really just to increase their knowledge and increase their consumption of fruits and vegetables

SPEAKER_00: 19:13

and and then What have you... How different is it now? Could a program like this, especially with the focus on regen, have happened five years ago? Or is it... Because it seems to be bubbling around this theme, specifically on the health side. I mean, there are conferences popping up. There's like, do you see that because you're in the trenches? Do you see that as well? Does it feel different around a healthy soil, a healthy human connection compared to a few years ago or maybe even longer? Or is it also it's just shifted a bit, let's say, in our little bubble.

SPEAKER_01: 19:48

It is, it seems to be really kicking up speed for sure. I don't think it would have worked five years ago. I don't know if we would have had as many farmers available using these practices or that they would even be aware of these practices. I think it is the right time at the right place. And I really saw that opportunity. And I still think we're kind of on a bubbling of additional bridge building from region to healthcare. That kind of, it's been building in the agricultural world, I think, for a little bit. while, and it's now just starting to poke its head over to healthcare. And I see that growing at rapid speed too. I think there needs to be more conferences on healthcare connection to regenerative. I know there's a few, but there's definitely room for more. I also feel like in the regenerative agricultural conferences that we're kind of speaking to the choir a lot of the time, and I'd really love to get more access to be bringing up regenerative agriculture to other organizations that it would connect to inside I have been fortunate to speak to the Kansas Governor's Public Health Conference. So I talked to 500 public health professionals. And it was brand new concept to them. But it was impactful. And it was people that haven't heard it all the time. Not just the same regenerative ag farmers kind of talking amongst themselves. I mean, that's good to have support and community. But yeah, I think it's growing quickly. I think it's the right time. And right now is the time. I think we really need to prepare our food system. have more education and access to that so we can continue moving forward. It's still a small amount of people, I think, but I think it's multiplied vastly in the last five years. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 21:29

And what are you open with when you're like talking to 500 health professionals that are, that hear this for the first time and this, I mean, the whole soil story, I mean, you can spend 10 hours on that only. Like what, if you have 10 minutes, what do you, what do you, how do you hook them? And how do you, at least, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 21:50

I definitely they know what the rates are of these chronic conditions. And I really start by telling my story and telling them that, you know, people deserve access to healthy food and really show how regenerative agriculture creates that nutrient density and how that impacts and a lot of them know a lot and understand about nutrition and diet. I think people question whether people are willing to do it. And so I'm able to use this program When I'm speaking as an example and say, you know, I was nervous, too, that we'd be forcing this program on people, but we're not. People are starving for this information. They know it's life or death and they actually don't have access and they don't know what to eat. And when we give them the tools to do that and not everybody, but a lot of people, I was elated to see how many people were continually committed to the program. We had 40 out of 50 people the first year stay in the program for the entire 12 months. And that seemed great. I think there's a community element outside of that. And I think that just having some passion and just some quick understanding, I don't go into a lot of super details about soil, but I do help them understand that there's a continuum of nutrient density, by the way, in different crops. Like the blueberry is not the same blueberry as another blueberry. They all differentiate. And so I established that and am able to draw connections. And they know how sick people are. how sick people are and they know the systems aren't working. They're inside of them too. But I, I, I speak very lovingly and passionate about that and that, you know, it's just stuff that we didn't know. And a lot of surprisingly or not, a lot of the public health professionals there at that conference had grandfathers or husbands who are also farmers. And so they really got it. And so I've been fortunate enough to, to be able to kind of read the room and make those connections when necessary. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:47

And what would you say if we would do this interview live, let's say in front of a room of a very different crowd, but a financial world and investors that are starting to get very interested, obviously, in the regen piece and the healthy soil piece, but also that healthy human connection. What would be, of course, we don't give investment advice, but what would be your main message to them after when they leave the room? Where should they dig a bit deeper? Where should they learn more? Where should they listen, what would be your main message or your main takeaway to a group of, let's say, financial professionals or people looking to put money to work?

SPEAKER_01: 24:26

I love this question. I think that's kind of the next step. And people are trying to figure that out right now. And the insurance is willing to pay. I do believe that, you know, they would be willing to pay and the cost savings that you could prove, you could even get a contract going where they would give you back some of those savings to continue the program, but their cost savings will be huge. And with the model of healthcare moving into a more value-based and outcome-based model, because it's going through that transition right now, it's not going to be fee for service. Every time you go to the doctor, they get paid. It's going to be based on outcome. And one of the pieces of implementing that shift is penalizing hospitals for readmissions within 30 days. And so these hospitals, these managed care insurance companies are going to be very interested in programs that are going to save them money and they're going to be willing to pay and they have the budget to pay. And so I do think that there's venture capital opportunities to make those relationships, engage in operations. like myself and really create a viable business model to not only make money, save the healthcare industry money, and also help people have incredible quality of life at the same time and stimulate local economy and agriculture. I mean, what would be a better investment?

SPEAKER_00: 26:14

And so when you talk to these insurers or it always seems the holy grail, everybody's like, okay, who's picking up the bill? It's definitely the taxpayer and the insurance companies and probably a combination of both. We haven't seen many movements there. Like what's holding them back? You must be talking to them or meeting them. Them is a very vague term, obviously, but what's holding the insurance world back to start backing prevention and this kind of care? Because we've seen it in surgery in the Netherlands where they do fit for surgery and they save a number of hospital days afterwards and a lot of complications, which are very expensive with a simple high protein diet and a lot of training before you go into very heavy surgery I mean all of those examples there are quite a few there and then somehow it doesn't seem to hit let's say the boardrooms of insurance companies like what's what's holding them

SPEAKER_01: 27:07

I know I uh you know

SPEAKER_00: 27:09

don't they want to save money

SPEAKER_01: 27:11

like yeah I think you know I think it's also it's individual beliefs of whether they believe we've kind of downplayed how big a role nutrition is on people's lives and health care cost savings I think that's there's an element of that, you know, the people making the decisions, whether they have a healthy diet or not, and they know the ripple effect of that. And they definitely, I wouldn't say know what regenerative agriculture is or the impact of that. There's still not a lot of studies that are proving this. You know, one of the big questions I get is, well, would the conventional fruits and vegetables make just as much of an impact? And that's a big question. I can make a meta analysis and I can say, well, if it has more nutrients in it, your brain's going to be satiated and it's going to tell your body to stop eating. So I would say that it does have a direct impact, but a lot of those studies haven't been funded, haven't been established. There's still just a few studies out there that kind of lean towards that truth. So I think it's just, we're going to have to have a lot more established studies and that's kind of the way it goes. But the FreshRx Food is Medicine mission has been pretty decently established. And so there is a group called the Food is Medicine Coalition that are lobbying and working on these things. There has actually been a federal pilot that has been approved. And so I think it's just a domino effect from there. Like Medicare and Medicaid have already started paying for something called medically tailored meals for people that gets discharged from the hospital. So they're not necessarily locally sourced, but I know that Food is Medicine Coalition has intention for that. There's a lot of providers in that group that do grow their own food. I don't know if it's regenerative or not necessarily, but it could be in a lot of ways it could be. And so I think it's just a domino effect and other insurances are going to look at what other insurances have done it. And it's really going to take like the first one to take a big chance. There has been state waiver programs through state Medicaid for people who are low income. There has been waiver programs passed for the state to pay for these programs. So there has been a couple that have been done. And I think it's just as it's going to have to have wider adoption and then it'll really push forward. And it's really just a matter of time, I think, before that happens.

SPEAKER_00: 29:28

And do you see that, like, we'll see, we're recording this at the beginning of 23. Will this be the year where we see the first insurance-funded program, or is that, like, is that a few years down the line and we're still in the, still, between brackets, still very important, but the pilot phases of many of these?

SPEAKER_01: 29:46

It could definitely be this year. It could definitely be this year. If someone has the relationships and they're willing to do it, it could happen anytime And cost savings are ready to be had. So anytime it may take another couple of years, but I wouldn't be surprised if we got a contract with an insurance company this year and just started moving that way.

SPEAKER_00: 30:09

And is it going to be, is diabetes like the ideal candidate or are there other, I wouldn't say lifestyle diseases, but other diseases that can be easily, like what are other hot ones for you or interesting ones for you? Is there a connection with food? lifestyle is so strong, we can have really high impact. And also, it's a disease that really is, let's say, costing a lot from the social side, but obviously also from the financial side. What are, beyond diabetes, what are other exciting ones? It's a weird word to use with disease, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:42

Yeah, yeah, no, totally. I mean, I would argue, you know, obviously for anybody, good quality food is going to have some type of impact. But as far as the diet-related diseases that we really want to go after are high blood pressure, high Hypertension is a huge, huge button right now. Also, heart disease. People are admitted into the hospital because of heart disease. And that's a big, big ticket item. And that can absolutely be driven very specifically by diet. And we've also seen people who really would like to see better programs for nutrition for cancer patients at the same time. So that is going to be something that we're looking at or trying to help people create a program for that specifically. But really any healthy food is going to be helpful in any chronic condition. And your body will just be better supported to try and heal itself. And I always say the body is a self-building house. If it gets what it needs and not too much of the poison, then it can really heal itself in a lot of ways. And so those are just a few of the chronic diseases that we've been looking at.

SPEAKER_00: 31:55

Yeah. And just flipping the conversation and the chair, like what if you would be in charge of a billion dollar investment fund and you're in the middle of the trenches, but also in a space that seems to be exploding, where would you put it to work? And what would be your priorities if you had, I wouldn't say unlimited resources, but a significant sum to be put to work in an investment way?

SPEAKER_01: 32:18

Absolutely. I can do something with that. I would put a FreshRx local chapter in every And then I would also create the infrastructure that would also benefit the local food system across the nation and even across the world. It may take it may take about a billion to do something like that. But as a result of running this program, it really shows us that we can do it. showed us the breakdowns in our local food system and what things we would need to scale and grow. And so really it's having hubs, regional food hubs, and having produce prescriptions kind of programs in every little state and city and going forward. And that could take a billion bucks. So we can, we can definitely do something great with that.

SPEAKER_00: 33:18

And you sort of alluded to that before on the contract side or the outcome side, we had this wave of, there were called impact bonds or social impact bonds which is the wrong name because it's not a bond at all but it's an outcome-based contract especially around i think it was around a prison system in the uk and a number of programs have been funded basically paying for a successful outcome to an operator like yourself it always sounded that this model would be perfect for food and egg perfect have you seen any work around that like okay it usually successful um operators like yourself that were basically cut could raise financing and then had an outcome based payer if you were successful in this case reducing the 50 patients to 40 etc etc have you seen any with a better name hopefully because impact bond is not the name but have you seen any work in that like outcome based funding schemes where you could actually raise the money to do this work and if you were successful from risk taking investors if you were successful you would be paid and also the investors would be having an interesting return kept in many cases but interesting return Has

SPEAKER_01: 34:29

that been done at all? Is there talks about that? that would benefit and save the state money. So we do have a couple groups in Oklahoma, one called Meta Fund, who we've been talking to. OU, the University of Oklahoma, did a study on us and really connected us with them, thinking that we have such good health outcomes that they would just have to, as a fund, convince Oklahoma State Medicaid to pay them back, essentially, and so they could give us money. And I think they're still working through the the kinks of that. But I was really impressed with that program. And I was trying to find what it was called. Impact investing is what they kind of call it. And they have several different programs, but they basically, yes, they pay nonprofits to create health outcomes and they get the state or the state entity, whether it's Department of Justice or a Department of Human Health Services to pay them back. And it's a great example of that is say there's a nonprofit that helps people keep custody of their children so they don't go into foster care and so they do an intervention program. Well, the money we would budget to foster that child now goes back into that nonprofit to prevent that from even happening. So that's a great example of how that works. And they can do the exact same model with a produce prescription program without a doubt.

SPEAKER_00: 36:19

Yeah, so we can wait for somebody to put those three entities. Basically, you need the operator, you need somebody to pay in some cases, it's a foundation or a nonprofit or it's somebody that saves the money and somebody to check the outcome, obviously, and see the control group and things like that. But in prisons, it has been very interesting for people basically funding a program to make sure you don't go back, which is an extremely expensive from all sides of like social, financial, like people go back into prison. And there are many very successful but very underfunded nonprofits making sure people land on their feet get housing and work, etc. And of course, saving an endless amount of money. But if you don't connect those dots, it's never going to go. And this sounds exactly the same, just replacing food with prison, basically.

SPEAKER_01: 37:04

Yes,

SPEAKER_00: 37:05

exactly the same. I'm waiting for programs like this to unroll. Maybe not. I mean, we've also seen examples. I know some investors that invested, I think, in a program in the UK. And then it was so successful that it was adopted as state policy at some point. And the investors were bought out. So it was good. But at the same time, they had to figure out another way or another place to put their money to work. So they had the out They even had the return. But of course, it was also the last time this investment had been done because it became state policy, which is what you want. Yeah, you want that.

SPEAKER_01: 37:34

And the investors have the relationships to really influence change like that. And that's what I'd like to see more of on this produce prescription model.

SPEAKER_00: 37:45

Yeah, but I've been surprised that it's been 10 years we're talking on social impact bonds and we haven't seen or email me people if you know of programs, but we haven't seen a lot of around food in this way, which is very interesting. But maybe now the time is right for that. I

SPEAKER_01: 37:58

think Oklahoma will be the first to do it.

SPEAKER_00: 38:01

Yeah, you were leading in the prison side.

SPEAKER_01: 38:04

The fund here has done more than other outside of just Department of Justice. We've done that program here, but they've been the first to apply it to all policy and all departments. And so they have yet to apply it to a produce prescription model, but I know that they are working on that.

SPEAKER_00: 38:24

Super interesting. And what would you change if you had a magic wand and you could change one thing overnight? So it could be anything in food and egg or not food and egg related. It could also be give people better taste or etc. What would you change if you had a magic wand and could change one thing?

SPEAKER_01: 38:43

Wow. One thing. I would insert the understanding of importance of food and health, that that be one in the same in people's brains.

UNKNOWN: 38:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:59

And the desire to really care about yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:03

Is that something that is like, you've seen, of course, with people that haven't had the chance or the exposure to food, like, and also taste and flavor, because in many cases we're used to very salty, very fatty, very sweet and bringing in fruit and vegetables. Have you seen like how quickly taste can be sort of reprogrammed? We talk about that, but we don't really, like, have you seen that, that like, it's sort of innate in us to, to want the the quality and the taste that in this case you're bringing to households um and it's not something because you were scared you said i was scared that we had to force it to them like we're forcing this new food these different foods or we're forcing stuff that might not be as sweet as your soda bottle or as some other things that are in the fridge has it been the case or what have you learned there

SPEAKER_01: 39:48

people's taste buds do change i mean i would think for the most part you'll want something you know not good for you every once in a while but i do think that as you eat healthier it does change your taste buds I've seen it with myself I've changed my diet to a more plant-based diet and I used to eat a lot of kind of fast food type things when I was like a teenager in early 20s and changed my diet and I could tell just for myself that the taste buds do change and that your habits do change and then I think that when you have a healthier diet you also have a higher consciousness in some way where you can then do deeper work on your Because it's like, if you're constantly inundating yourself with low vibrational foods, then it's also going to have an effect on your mental health. And so you're not going to do as many positive, healthy things or be as productive. And so I think that changing your taste buds by eating healthier things can actually be a ripple effect to a lot of other healthy, holistic healing changes in yourself. And for me, it's a it's a ripple effect. It's a great entry point. for people to come at. And even if they don't want to start with healing their emotions or healing other things that we can start with food. And that's a great start. And then maybe if they're feeling better, they'll be more apt to do additional productive things in their life.

SPEAKER_00: 41:19

And you mentioned in the diet change, let's just start with increasing the amount of healthy fruits and vegetables. On the animal protein side, are you doing anything there? Are you deliberately avoiding that? Is there plans? Because that might be still a big chunk of diet, which can be either replaced with much healthier proteins or much healthier animal proteins as well. What is your view on the animal protein side?

SPEAKER_01: 41:50

I definitely think that regenerative beef and other meat will be way better than the stuff they're getting. Our program is really based in a certain model and it's a research program. So we only are giving out vegetables and fruit because of how that research is structured. But I do want to see more regenerative meat and protein in our food system. And so I absolutely support those producers in the area and connecting them to We have an urban ag coalition that I run in Tulsa. And so that really encompasses kind of a wider variety of suppliers and producers. So that's something I definitely want to see in the food system. I think animals and livestock are important part of this picture that, you know, you can eat a plant based diet, but also eat healthy protein when you want to eat that. I have no problem with that. And I want those producers to be equally supported. It's not necessarily a part of the Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00: 43:11

And as a final question, which usually is not the final question, but what do you believe to be true about region ag that others don't? So where are you contrarian, let's say within our bubble? This is definitely a question that's inspired by John Kemp.

SPEAKER_01: 43:25

My, oh, let's see. You know, I really do believe that chemicals are harmful. I think not everybody in regenerative ag thinks that you have to be a regenerative farmer and you can't, a lot of people think you can't use chemicals and be a regenerative farmer. I think that there are some small instances where they may feel like they need to do that. But I do believe that we can holistically manage land without chemicals and that we really need to lean that direction. I think that that's important. I think that people have valid concerns about the use of these chemicals. And I think there's alternative ways of doing it. But again, the farmers need a lot more support to do that. And I do believe that regenerative food and local food is more nutrient dense. I would say probably most people agree with that. There is some differing opinions. I believe one of the biggest things I will say is I believe that regenerative farmers and people in this field need to be in integrity with their own health. I've been really disappointed to see so many regenerative farmers be so concerned about their soil and their land, but really not be concerned about their own health. And I think that when you are helping with a mission like this is and really preaching these kinds of things to be believable and for this mission to move along better and more productively and just for yourself and your family, that we really need to be treating ourselves like we're treating the soil. And I think that not every group in regenerative ag is concerned about that. I mean, obviously you can make more money being a regenerative farmer and that kind of gets people in the door, which is great. But I think that especially the people running conferences, the people speaking, they need to embody these teachings. And I think that that's that doesn't happen a lot. And it saddens me because we need them around too, you know, to continue this mission.

SPEAKER_00: 45:38

We cannot lose them to diabetes type two. Yeah. I

SPEAKER_01: 45:41

know. I know a lot of these farmers I'm talking to have diabetes or have these chronic conditions or have serious alcohol dependency or drinking lots of soda and having all these issues. And it's like, guys, come on. Like what is keeping you from loving yourself and respecting yourself? I mean, we at least have access, a lot of us to better food so i don't i feel like it's hard though people farmers are working hard and so obviously sometimes it's easier for them to go get some fast food and i get that it's not easy but i'd really like to see that be something that we get closer to as a community so

SPEAKER_00: 46:19

we need to get a regenerative subscription model specifically focused on the operators and farmers in the space they don't have time to cook or but they should know better but yeah we all understand that sometimes it's It's not easy. And make sure they're around for the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years. Yeah, we love you guys. We need

SPEAKER_01: 46:37

you. That's

SPEAKER_00: 46:39

a very good point. And then, I mean, you mentioned that we commissioned to a farmer to do this and this. And obviously, you said regenerative farming is more profitable. From a payment perspective, why would they work with you compared to selling it on the farmer's market? What makes you an interesting, apart from all the health outcome and, of course, a very interesting... story what makes it interesting for farmers to work with you.

SPEAKER_01: 47:05

Yeah, they have a reliable wholesale model to sell to where they don't have to go sit at the farmer's market and be there all day. It's a lot easier for them. I also allow the farmers to dictate their price. So it's not going to be Walmart wholesale prices. It's going to be somewhere in the mid range between not retail prices, but a wholesale price that they get to dictate. And if they have any overages or anything We can't give out for our program. We'll still buy everything they have because we have a way to sell that to our local food bank as a result. So they don't have to have any nervousness about over harvesting or things going to waste. We have become kind of an aggregator locally and we pretty much are buying everything we can get our hands on that's local and regenerative. And we make sure that it gets sold and that they have a reliable market. And if they want to grow new crops, we're willing to help support them. We are starting to do more, instead of just buying their extra food, we are commissioning them in kind of a CSA model so they can get 50% upfront and have upfront capital to pay for seeds or whatever they need. I had a farmer tell me yesterday that because she had her upfront money, she had her farm truck was going out, and so she was able to fix that, and she wouldn't have been able to. A lot of the farmers said that they would not have survived the pandemic if it wasn't for them. for our program. And so we've actually been able to get four of our farmers have hoop houses funded through the NRCS this year, through our advocacy and technical assistance. So we really take care of them and they can feel more confident to grow and to scale and to try new things and to have a wholesale market they can depend on.

SPEAKER_00: 48:57

And it's very interesting. You mentioned the diversity, of course, but are you starting to look in to like but it's of course a diverse group of farmers like what if they grow differently or a different crop into your program would that have a different health outcome or that's completely not let's say identifiable yet it's just like let's make sure the patients get a very diverse set of fruit and vegetables and as diverse as possible and at some point we might start looking at certain kale or certain cauliflower or certain whatever is more impactful but that's just not doable yet? Because you don't tell them what to grow. Whatever you get your hands on, you know you can place it somewhere.

SPEAKER_01: 49:44

Yeah, I've really considered that. I've really considered testing the farmers, like if one is growing kale, the other is growing kale, whose is more nutrient dense and kind of going down the rabbit hole of that kind of testing. And I'd love to formulate or amend the soil in a certain way that it creates the certain more nutrients that maybe diabetics need to have more of. It's really a question of just being able to get fresh food and get people to even eat anything at this point. But I do think that it potentially, I think the larger market is really going to start looking at those things. And then that's going to determine which farmer they want to buy from. I'm really excited for consumers to be able to be empowered to know which farmer grows the best spinach. And then that could really inform us as we go forward on what we want to choose. But right now, we're just kind of getting everything together. But But yeah, I've been really interested in how we could get more specific for different chronic conditions and amend the soil for one better for cancer and grow certain crops that would uptake those certain elements that people need for those chronic conditions. So not quite yet, but definitely interested in that. And if anyone out there knows more information about that, please contact me.

SPEAKER_00: 51:11

Perfect. Yeah, I think there's work being done. done but it's very it feels very early on that to be so specific and and i think i don't remember if it was in the health nexus of the healthy food nexus of croton institute which i will link below or it was david montgomery mentioning it somewhere um like the fact that we don't know everything doesn't mean we should not act and we know diversity helps and right so let's cover i think it was the health nexus let's let's make sure we get as diverse as possible because then we know you get everything in even though we might not even have a name for the certain micronutrient or phytonutrient we need, et cetera. So let's first get the diversity in and then we can, it doesn't hurt, that's for sure. So let's make sure we move there. And we start from such a low point in many cases, most of our diets. So let's not focus on the superfoods, et cetera. Let's just at least

SPEAKER_01: 52:01

eat some vegetables. That would be a big step. But yes, I'm excited to see it's very early on with that. And I've heard of some people that do look at some of those things and I'm excited to further connect on that research and how we can move forward with that.

SPEAKER_00: 52:17

Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time. I'm very curious to keep following this. Obviously, also after the series ends, we'll be doing more and we'll keep uncovering the connection between healthy soil and healthy people. So thank you so much for the work you do and for taking the time to come on the show and talk about it.

SPEAKER_01: 52:37

Yeah, thank you so much. And if people want to connect with me, I'm sure you'll list it on all the platforms. But just if people listening, you can look at FreshRx, OK and then my larger mission with all the different work I do at consciousagingsolutions.com I'm on Facebook and Instagram and Aaron Martin or expert on aging or FreshRx Oklahoma you can find me all over so please reach out FreshRx Oklahoma has a YouTube channel so if you want to see some of our cooking and nutrition classes we'll have more up we just started that so please follow like subscribe subscribe and join us. And

SPEAKER_00: 53:20

I will definitely link all of that below. So thank you so much, Aaron, for your time today and speak to you soon. Thanks again, and see you next time.