216 Fides Lapidaire and Yanna Hoek - Why human shit is going to save the world

A conversation with Fides Lapidaire and Yanna Hoek, the creators of Holy Shit, a documentary on how our shit can feed the world, about human shit or human treasure as they like to call it, the gap in our circular food system, the need for a mindset shift, the technology needed and more.
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We can’t just thoughtlessly keep flushing very precious resources done the drain and pay enormous amounts of money to get it treated and import large amount of chemical fertility from elsewhere. After this interview, your toilet experience will never be the same again!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I've been saying it for years. You should get a discount when you go to the toilet in a restaurant. We try to cover as many aspects of the regeneration revolution as possible on this podcast, but this one is definitely a first and hopefully probably not a last one. We never talk about human shit or human treasure as the guests of today like to call it. I realize we've talked more about animal manure in this podcast than about the massive gap in our circular food system, the one that nobody talks about. We ship massive amounts of nutrients to cities and we don't get anything back to the farm that cannot continue and the tech is there and the ways of doing it safely and at scale as well but what's really missing is a mindset shift we can't just thoughtlessly keep flushing very precious resources down the drain and pay enormous amounts of money energy resources to get it treated and then import large amounts of chemical fertility from elsewhere i promise that after this interview your toilet experience will never be the same again enjoy This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast, investing as if the planet mattered, where we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Why my focus on soil and regeneration? Because so many of the pressing issues we face today have their roots in how we treat our land and our sea, grow our food, what we eat, wear and consume. And it's that we as investors, big and small, and consumers start paying much more attention to the dirt slash soil underneath our feet. To make it easy for fans to support our work, we launched our membership community. And so many of you have joined us as a member. Thank you. If our work created value for you, and if you have the means, and only if you have the means, consider joining us. Find out more on gumroad.com slash investing in RegenAg. That is gumroad.com slash investing in RegenAg. Or find the link below. Welcome to another episode today with the creators of Holy Shit, a documentary on how our shit can feed the world. Welcome, Fides and Jana.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Thank you. Thank you. And...

Why are you doing what you are doing? Why Soil?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

There's so much to unpack in that first sentence already, but let's start with your personal story or your personal stories actually of both of you. How did that lead you to make a documentary and a lot more work around it, which we're going to unpack as well, focusing on that, I'm going to say, quote unquote, human waste and the important role it has to play because it seems absolutely inevitable in regeneration and in feeding the world. But what led you to that? Because I can imagine there are quite a few other career paths you both could have chosen or let's say you were on other paths and somehow I draw you to this this very specific and very important but not much talked about topic

SPEAKER_01 2:56

yeah first of all I would say no human waste but human treasure and but before I also saw shit as shit something dirty I didn't ever thought about what happened if I would flush down the toilet daily but well me personally I'm an artist so designer and I worked a lot with farmers in the Netherlands and one farmer came to me and he said Fides, that's my name I want people from the city to come to me with a bucket of shit and then I will make something beautiful out of it and I was like what the fuck, what are you talking about? I didn't know, it was quite strange to me but he said it a couple of times so I started to trust him and I'm like okay what this shit talk that you're talking about and he's described to me a book it's called 3000 years of sustainable agriculture, regenerative agriculture and it's a research book from 100 years ago where Mr. King it's a scientist from America goes to the area of China and Japan and Korea and looks at how is it possible that so many people are being fed here with and the soils stays healthy. How is that possible? Because he saw it in America going a little bit wrong. And he found two findings. One was they used their own poo and pee in a very great, fast transport system with very hygienic ways of doing it. And it's a very important part that we'll probably come back to later. And secondly, they appreciate shit their own shit it was so that if you would hand in your shit you would have to pay less rent even even more like if we're all imagine this we're all at dinner at my place and and it was socially acceptable or wished

SPEAKER_00 5:06

upon please go to the toilet to

SPEAKER_01 5:08

give your value back in a toilet before you left the house again so that's exactly that thought like not how because it was also explained how it was done and stuff but that they really valued their shit was for me eye-opening especially as an artist who likes the nitty and gritty of life and really looks for those like things that we don't notice in life and that we just see as a given like the toilet how we flush it how we we either feed ourselves it's just a given to really research that and think how can we do it differently that was just a great subject shit came to me And then I created a project about it called Shit Sandwich. It's a food truck where one side there's a toilet and I ask people to donate their shit. And the other side, there are sandwiches created from compost of a human poo and pee. And people are very distraught by it. They laugh.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

But was there a discount? Because I'm not asked the obvious question. If you

SPEAKER_01 6:09

donate your shit, you get a discount on your sandwich. Very important part. People like discounts.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

For years, I've been saying it. For years, I said, these years, going to be the year where there's going to be a restaurant where you get a discount and my wife's going to laugh now but you get a discount when you go to the toilet and for years I've been until I found your sandwich you said this

SPEAKER_01 6:29

oh my god

SPEAKER_00 6:30

I said but I think five or six years ago I said somebody's going to do it it's going to happen it's going to happen and then I found your your broochie poop in Dutch and sandwich shit sandwich I was like wow somebody actually did it on a festival that's so cool so it's it's been and then I followed you over time and we're going to talk about the documentary so and the reaction of people then we're going to go to your story obviously, Jana, but the reaction of people, you're on a festival, you're selling a sandwich which everybody has to eat, it's hopefully sunny, etc. And then do you have that interaction? Like what happened when you tell people, oh, you can actually go to the toilet and get a discount? And they're like, what? Like how did, what happens there? The

SPEAKER_01 7:05

reaction, so we've been touring with this shit wagon for already like three, four years now and we've done a lot since, but on that festival the reactions are so great and it changes also I see it it has been changing since since we started really people are very more acceptable and open for it it's so strange how fast you see a change but you have multiple reactions you have people who who agree with you but still are very uncomfortable by eating the sandwich people who they always want to sniff the compost because we also have like compost there it's just earth but it's made from human poopy and they always want to smell it and I was like it's like earth and the sandwich tastes like a normal sandwich and it's yeah

SPEAKER_00 7:57

in the documentary there are some great scenes and that it's really like yeah the contrast is amazing and Jana how did shit enters your life I mean it's a question I never thought I would ask but it makes so much sense in this context we

SPEAKER_02 8:10

ask ourselves every day it's a very normal question for people around us and for ourselves but yeah I think it's contagious in many ways as a criminologist

SPEAKER_00 8:21

let's hope not

SPEAKER_02 8:23

in a good way as a criminologist way back when I studied feels long time ago I think I already had the inclination I love taboos I love things that are not really accepted a bit strange people have a lot of opinions about well if you talk about crime everybody has an opinion about how about jails about punishment about what we see as normal as morally acceptable in our society. And we all make the rules. Rules are all made by humans. They don't just are there. We are actually the ones who say what is acceptable or not in our society. And actually, in that way, when I met Fides also a while back, friends first. Friends first, then professionals, but now both. And they go together very well. We shit where we eat. No, wait. but in many ways I felt like this topic is precisely death it's something that people don't actually want to talk about we want to forget about it when we flush the toilet like it's not part of our normal daily life but it actually is it's really really apparent part of our lives so I think that always attracted me in the way that at first actually also I've been working now for this I think two and a half years also together with Fidesz when we when I first started I really saw okay we have something here you know if like this intuition it's part it should be part of the discussion about sustainability about circularity but it's not but I also even after three four years you still find parts of the topic of shit that surprised me that I think oh I never thought about sort of for example that we are actually having a nitrogen crisis there should be a connection to that but we'll talk about it more in depth but for example there's so many crises we call it crises but there are also opportunities of course but they're all connected in some way to this story and I found that very intriguing and how shit is everywhere in that sense if you see the world through the eyes of shit you can never look back something changes

SPEAKER_00 10:44

And so you were touring with this shit wagon. I'm going to keep calling it like that. And what triggered you to, to make a documentary and to, which I definitely will put in the, in the links below. It's on Vimeo. Everybody can rent it. And there are English subtitles for the parts that are in Dutch. So I highly recommend it. It's 35 plus minutes, super informative, very interesting to, to dive deep into this story. But what triggered you to do that? You could have easily continued with the shit wagon. There are a lot of festivals. There will be a lot of festivals in the future. What triggered you to go beyond that?

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Well, so the documentary is a very, we call it a good excuse to come at places and to find answers because there's a lot of questions. And also because it's such a fundamental way. If we take nutrients out of the cycle and humans are the biggest hole, black hole of nutrients in the cycle. It's very logical, but like you said, a lot of people don't talk about it. It's not part of the discussion about sustainability and circularity in a, in a, in a mainstream way. It's still a sort of side topic, but we really wanted to discover like, why again, is it not part of this? Why is it not talked about? And also why is it being held back? What is the, what are the obstacles to really use the shit in our way that is actually, uh, that we need to do to actually feed the soil? Uh, That was the big question. And of course, what we really enjoyed both, I think, that because of this sort of documentary, you really come at places, you know, we talked with politicians who were at the water utilities, like everywhere. You come at farmers.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yeah, when you go with a camera, you get everywhere. It's a

SPEAKER_02 12:35

good excuse. It's

SPEAKER_00 12:36

the same thing with a podcast. If you ask, can I interview somebody? Usually people say yes. If you say, can I ask some questions in general? And it's way less interesting.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

And people People love to talk about themselves. That's always the case. So if you're like, we want to interview with it. Like most people are like, Oh, okay. Me. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Because of that reason, I

SPEAKER_01 12:57

think added to that, um, the, the shit wagon, it was always that question is like, how do we get this shit done? Like first the curiosity, like, Whoa, why does nobody know about it? Uh, it's such a great solution to so many big problems and it's something that we all do like we are shit producers in this world where everything is like falling apart you feel hopeless I can create something myself I don't have to do much I do it every day already if you eat right I can produce like soil so this wonder is our starting point but then how to get shit done and that's been our quest all along and this door documentary is a way first of all to find excuses to get those places but also to create a platform where there's real answers to those underlying questions where it's not just a gimmick where it's not just something to laugh about or to feel uncomfortable about but to really think like oh wait this is a great alternative for the things how we do things now and we should really take it seriously

SPEAKER_02 14:09

yes and also i want to add to that what i find really interesting is that As humans, we are very much, we can be risk takers, but we also analyze every risk. We want to control things, you know, we understand if it's safe or not.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

So what are the risks here? Like what's the holding back that we don't value it anymore? Like you said before, if it is like in China where it was a resource and you were getting discounts or rent cuts, et cetera, like what is holding us apart from the ick factor, the we can unpack as well and it's interesting with gimmicks we can change that perception but what's holding us back to take this seriously especially in these years of crisis in Europe in these years of basically losing fertility of the soil every day and importing an incredible amount of chemical stuff to keep that sort of in place like what's yeah what's holding us back

SPEAKER_02 15:05

the biggest there's so many but

SPEAKER_00 15:08

I think the biggest there's so many but let's start with the top one and that is

SPEAKER_01 15:13

that's just the way we do it. That's just the way we do it. And if we want to do it, like we are proposing to, to bring back the nutrients that we poo in our poo MP, then we need to create new systems, new, uh, transport systems, new, yeah. Companies working together. Uh, and it's new. That's the biggest, but that's with all transitions, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

And, and,

SPEAKER_00 15:40

and regulation, like, is it holding like, Oh no, sorry. We got here because of the risks. Are there risks? I mean people would say like contamination we mentioned before like what are the risks of doing this like how difficult is it to do it properly are there serious risks or should we just not get too scared about it

SPEAKER_02 15:59

well funny enough this also we've been screening the documentary and been touring and this is just the first question the main question is but is it safe but I eat medicine every day and I and then can I eat from that is that is that possible and in one way technologically it's already possible we also had interviews with Gietje Zeeman for internationals maybe hard to pronounce but Gietje Zeeman is a researcher in Wageningen and she says I mean it's possible of course it's going to cost something with everything with every technology you have to have different systems when you for example have a circular toilet it comes it's all in a central system it becomes cleaned and then there's also a way to after that process to compost it for example and then you can actually use it for for example agriculture to grow plants we mostly now use it to to create energy to bio biogas but in a lot of ways there's so many possibilities all to do this in a safe way but still I think one thing is because of we talked about the taboo our idea of poo is that it's again dirty and the first association with that becomes oh then it's risky and people focus on more on the risk side than on the possibility side like the if side like if we bring it in of course we need to do it safe but it's more about oh it's risky so we shouldn't do it so it's already been held back in the process before actually the possibilities are being weighed out and I think that's also a big hurdle that we don't even want to look at it because we're like, oh, well, we shouldn't deal with that.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Yeah, because we hear the stories of why we created the sewage system, why we're flushing, because of hygiene, because of horrible city conditions when we set up those systems. And of course, the world has moved on since then, luckily, quite a bit. And then what's the second question? When people say, okay, is it safe? And you say, yeah, actually, if you do it well, it's safe. What's the second question that comes out of the audience when you screen this movie in front of of, let's say, a live audience?

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Okay, first one is we have already too much shit, right? Yeah. We have too much shit already in the lens. Why would we want to use more shit?

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Because we have a massive... Okay, so we have a lot of issues with... Our shit. Yeah. Good question, because we have a lot of concentrated CAFO operations, factory farms, which, of course, accumulate an immense amount of, let's say, animal shit. So what's your answer? to then when people say that like yeah we have already too much shit why should we complicate our lives even further

SPEAKER_01 18:51

well we should use all shit I just want to point out human shit is next level shit it's much better I mean we have a very

SPEAKER_00 18:59

that's a good answer

SPEAKER_01 19:00

our diet is quite versatile and so that translates in our shit we hope I think there are lots of ways to answer this question also depending on the place you live but for example in the Netherlands we have a lot of And a lot of animals. And we have too much nutrients. And shit here. But on other places. They're not. At all places. They're not always enough animals. AKA enough animal shit. Inversio to humans. But wherever there are humans. That need to be fed. There are shit of humans. That can feed the soil. To feed them. So. I think. That's the. the best answer for that question, but also... How we are dividing it now is that in places where, maybe you can answer that.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Yeah, so I think what we do now, we have, of course, if you talk about import, a lot of the nutrients also are being taken from other places. So we actually, we rob them of their nutrients to feed the cow that we have, which are already too many. So we take these nutrients, we take them to the Netherlands and actually we see that we are very efficient but we're actually not very efficient because we take a lot of in so this is on one point and the other point is that in the end if we if we talk about the the health of the soil we also need to look at other ways so less cattle is one of the ways that we need to move to so not not cattle but at least less and also if we talk about the what we now use to feed the soil is mostly on artificial fertilizer also so if all all these different ways that actually lead to less artificial fertilizers needed to have healthy soil, less cows in a more balanced way. And then we need alternatives to actually feed the soil. So then humans come in, we come into place because there's a lot of, yeah, we are already there and it's easy to use us and actually make healthy, really good compost with it, for example. But also I think one of the main points is that we are actually extracting a lot to feed our cows, our people, our soil. And then we actually make it more dense that we have local ways of fertilizing the soil also in a way that it's healthy and more balanced. So it's a lot of

SPEAKER_00 22:12

different benefits. Just to be clear, like currently we take a lot of the nutrients out of the cycle by especially the human shit goes into biogas, et cetera, which is, let's say, okay, from an energy perspective, but on the scale of usefulness, it's not the best way to use it because you lose the nutrients, you're done. And basically you're creating a huge hole, as you mentioned, in the cycle and you keep importing from outside your fertility. And so, okay, let's establish we don't have enough shit actually, and we're losing a lot of fertility and keep importing. And then what's on the regulation side, because of course then people are saying, yeah, but is it allowed? Like, what do you see there? How much space is there? How difficult was it to do, let's say, the shit sandwich caravan to go around from festivals? Like how tricky is this just from the, not from the hygiene as the risk perspective, but the hygiene rule perspective? As I can imagine, that's not easy in the European Union.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

We have a don't ask, don't tell policy on shit level. No, so we make sure that the compost that we use is safe. So we do tests on the things that we can test to make sure, hey, this is safe. Then it goes into the soil and that has like a, yeah the soil also has a way to sift out certain things so we can confidently say that the sandwiches that we produce are very safe but uh law and legislation is quite a gray zone and it's in every country it's different um but uh we don't know we don't know what we can do and what we can do and the government doesn't know um they like because

SPEAKER_00 23:52

nobody ever talks about it no

SPEAKER_01 23:53

yeah that's awesome nobody talks about it and nobody wants to talk about it and they whisper in their ear just do it then we can react upon it and we ask yeah but the big parties are not moving if there's no like if it's not allowed if they know it's not allowed because it's very risky for them to invest in something where the long registration is not clear yet so it's

SPEAKER_00 24:17

imagine if you make a new like living area and you install these toilets that separate and then store it properly and process it properly etc and then two years later somebody says actually there was a law in somewhere somewhere that doesn't allow it I mean redoing and retrofitting all of that is just not yeah that's a risk probably any builder wouldn't take or any project developer maybe a few people at home a few people at home would do it but if you're building something 200 houses somewhere yeah I can imagine you're like I would like a clear yes or no oh yeah maybe try and let us figure it out along the way

SPEAKER_01 24:52

on cow shit there's a lot of legislation on waste and I do air quotes now for listeners there's also a lot of legislation but we say it's not waste it's value so then there's an open space to create now it's the rules say you cannot sell it but what if we create a trading system and not selling what is like a one big cooperation of shit you know you pay less rent if you hand in your shit and in the corporation there's also a farmer nearby that can feed the soil of that farm from your shit but also gives vegetables back so I think there's a lot of creativity involved in there but we should be really mindful of how we are calling it that's why I corrected you in the first place and

SPEAKER_00 25:52

also

SPEAKER_01 25:54

find those loopholes a little bit to challenge Europe, Parliament and everyone because they want to be challenged. They also want movement. And also I think

SPEAKER_02 26:07

we talk about you have an international audience so a lot of countries are listening to this and I think we also have to look at a broader scale. In the Netherlands we are way back. We're not ahead of ourselves. I mean we could do much more than we are actually doing now. But also laws and legislation are holding us back. But a lot of countries in Europe actually are already reusing either from the sewage system or a circular way their shit and also there's examples of already farmers that are actually using it because necessitation is different there and it's more you can easily reuse it there so I think we also have to look at a global scale that actually there's a lot of innovation and already change in this but you see also a lot of yeah people being held back for example in the nans we are actually not really doing well in in the shit way in a lot of ways we're not doing very well we have a lot of there's a lot of possibility

SPEAKER_00 27:09

and has it changed like you mentioned it changed over the last years the conversation because it feels like technology is there legislation is sort of gray zone but could be changed or at least stuff is possible and allowed or at least not completely illegal so it may mainly seems a mindset shift like we started with. Has that shifted? I'm going to shift too many times. Has it changed over the last years as you have been going to these festivals? Like the conversation, of course, your bubble has been growing because of the documentary and you get to people that already sort of have these conversations, but have you felt a change in the field or in general in the sector? Like, okay, this is a, is there a momentum now? Like the question always investors like to ask, why now? Is there a now that feels different than a couple of years ago?

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Yeah, I please add on the things that I'm saying but I think there's a lot of actually a lot of urgency momentum so one of the things that we see actually with the farmers that we work with is that they see the gas prices going up artificial fertilizer is becoming very very expensive and scarce

SPEAKER_01 28:12

and also it's widely known that that doesn't feed the soil it feeds the plant but not the soil

SPEAKER_00 28:16

so it destroys your soil very

SPEAKER_01 28:17

noticeable that the soil is being depleted and farmers are also getting

SPEAKER_02 28:22

itchy of that yeah so you have two ways one is a direct in incentive that you actually see okay it's a high price but also a high cost of soil loss of also water problems and all the other things that farmers are actually seeing in their land so they're having a lot of difficulty to getting the yields that they actually before was more easy to get so I think that's one of the main thing also with the war was also I mean wars are not it's good that a war is actually the incentive for change but you also saw with with the war with the gas price to actually make artificial fertilizer to get the energy it's such a high price that is actually people saw directly okay we need to do something different so that's one point another thing is like the scarcity of phosphor that we're actually seeing worldwide because we're also extracting it from mining it's in zones geopolitical very sort of high risk zones for example in Morocco we have the mines at one they're also almost empty or emptying in the coming 60 years they're probably going to be empty so that's one thing without

SPEAKER_01 29:33

phosphorus we cannot grow anything just to be very clear like this is the without phosphorus we cannot

SPEAKER_02 29:37

grow this

SPEAKER_01 29:40

is the other thing nobody ever talks about it comes from two or three places that are at risk this is the hidden wave of phosphorus is life it's the basis of life and you cannot produce it like we produce nitrogen It's only there in the form of mines. We mine it and those mines are emptying out. And another thing, but then maybe we cannot talk too long about the crisis because then we'd open their shit. But if we put all the phosphor in those mines, if we put it in our system, then the whole balance is out and it flows through rivers to this ocean, algae will grow, there won't be any oxygen

SPEAKER_00 30:30

in the sea,

SPEAKER_01 30:31

there won't be any sea life. So besides that, I don't think that we should use up all the mines. And if we do, we have a big problem. We also have a big problem if we put all the phosphor that is now in rock formation, if we use that in our ecosystem, our ecosystem cannot handle it. And then...

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Do you see that pressure with farmers? Yeah, geopolitically, it's a huge risk. I mean, we noticed that, of course, with the war with other materials or other imports we desperately are based upon. But then you see with, like you mentioned, farmers we work with, we see the price. Do you see any, I would say, creativity there, like somebody that sells to a local restaurant to figure out, okay, how do I get those nutrients back? Can I get a deal? Can I help you install... a few proper toilets that separate things and then I will make sure that it flows back to my farm and I will make sure I keep supplying you vegetables. Do you see those connections being made now with these crazy prices?

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Well, you see it in a literal and a figurative way because, of course, the law doesn't allow the space for farmers to actually experiment, which is also one of the things that we really are pushing for. Give them the space they want. They actually see the worth of it. They know they need the nutrients for their own soul they want to do it but actually they're limited but there are a lot of farmers for example that we work also with the give a shit campaign and actually farmers there are the farmers we work with all over the lands put up their flag and say shit at our farm bring your shit we need it so actually more farmers are coming to join with this campaign and you really see that they actually really want to do something with it there's also farmers who have already circular toilets in our place and already used the compost but not on the garden to grow plants but in different ways for example to feed the soil so there are indirect ways already that they're building the infrastructure that is needed to actually bring in the shit of humans to eventually really feed the soil in a way that we actually can grow plants that people eat but they're already starting to build it in different ways so composting other materials like our farm Peter van der Falk he already is building the infrastructure structure of what we need to actually do it in the future so you really see farmers thinking ahead of themselves of their time it's like okay it's not now but in the future we are going to do it we're going to use that shit of the

SPEAKER_01 33:08

of civilians to to grow our plants and i think the interesting thing of what in the documentary you also see a farmer peter van der valk that jana said interesting thing that he does is that he says i'm not a farmer who produce only produce food my main task is to recycle nutrients and this way the pressure that i have to have this outcome you know to have a business case on only producing food gets less because yes i produce food but the other source of income is that i recycle nutrients so now we flush our toilets and it will it costs a lot of money to get rid of it but he says give it to me he now does that with mostly like a grass and other recyclables but wants to go to shit give it to me I make compost out of it with a corporation of farmers where we rent the machines together feed the soil that's where how I can get a little bit of income I produce food that's another part where I can get a little bit of income so it's a great way that you shift the mindset of a farmer no my main source is not only producing food but it's taking care of the soil, so I can create a societal place for myself, where I create healthy soils that contain water well, that are actually equipped for the climate change that we are facing.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

And what's like the entry point to scale here? Because I'm imagining a lot of infrastructure has to be changed, like in houses and things like that. But what are other ways to collect a good amount of shit and pee as well separately? Because that's, I think, seems to be a crucial piece. Is this festivals? Is it temporary? What is the next step beyond a farmer that, of course, puts a nice circular toilet on his or her farm, but might have a few people who what do you see as a next cool scaling piece of this where we can start working with more significant amounts of human treasure

SPEAKER_02 35:36

well in city we shit the most I think of course the density of people is tremendous here so one of the first

SPEAKER_00 35:45

so do you have to retrofit everything or do you have is it possible like in an apartment building is it possible to plug a machine into the sewage pipe and start there or do you have to retrofit all the toilet in the whole building to get the best quality?

SPEAKER_02 35:58

I think, of course, the most easiest way and a good investment would be to already start making circular toilets in new buildings, which are going to be built in great scale in the coming years. So we see that as sort of the main sort of entry point. And of course, the circular sanitation, you have a centralized way of getting it all into one tank. And then, for example, it can be we already have infrastructure for getting trash or waste again with into in vehicles already out of the city so there are already ways of transporting for example these kind of nutrients to the land so actually with the city you can feed the land again so it becomes also more connected in that way and there's also a centralized we can still have a part of the sewage system that we have but we're really looking to not burning all the healthy nutrients that we do now because most of these burn. And like Fida said, it costs a lot of money actually. You think it's for free to burn something, but it's actually a few million, four million it costs to burn.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Side note, this is how we do it in Holland. So a lot of other countries, they use the sewage system or the slip, the sludge. The sludge. Here we burn it. So that's a little side note. So there's a lot

SPEAKER_00 37:22

of... Let's say burning sludge with a lot of liquid, of course, is not easy

SPEAKER_02 37:26

yeah so and also it's a lot of contamination going in already it's very inefficient like it can be much easier if you look into what we pull out actually if you compare it to what comes into the sludge it's much more it's contained with industry with agriculture with all these kind of toxins and roads but actually what we shit people think that is dirty well actually if you look at the other end of the site that is much more dirty and much more difficult to get the clean and healthy stuff that you

SPEAKER_00 37:54

want so you would say focus on the separation focus on I mean part of it let's make sure we don't burn it in the Netherlands specifically but also focus a lot of attention on the new infrastructure to make sure it is made to be circular which means separated pee and poo and make sure it can be then separately transported treated and used because both of them are actually basically gold but it shouldn't be mixed because that just makes things way more complicated yes

SPEAKER_02 38:19

for sure and I think there's just not one solution one size fits all solution with this I'm really an also with if you look at the end of the cycle so not only how you collect it and how you actually use the nutrients for example composting, fermenting or actually also for energy for a part it's also possible but it's also if you look at the other end of the cycle the soil it's also very dependable which farmer uses or needs what kind of nutrients so you also have to look on like it's much more location based what is needed and what is possible so I think we also want to engage sort of not engage but how do you say prikkelen

SPEAKER_00 39:09

the word

SPEAKER_02 39:10

tickle

SPEAKER_00 39:12

tickle there's so many

SPEAKER_02 39:13

possibilities there's just not one way so I think that's also really important in the story

If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing overnight

SPEAKER_01 39:19

yeah there's no one size fits all but there are a lot of solutions already to fit the project on hand and that's the interesting part and what really what we really are standing for is okay but in all those cases what you if you do it like on the sludge system and don't change that much or if you really change the whole system and create new toilets and new houses whatever skill you choose whatever point you choose on that transition skill you as a person you are a shit producer and you produce value and make sure stand up for your rights stand up for your shit rights make sure that your shit is not wasted and that you feed the soil

SPEAKER_00 40:09

And what would you change? Both of you, it's a magic wand question, meaning you have a magic wand to change one thing overnight, but only one. But of course you're in two, so you can choose two. But what would be one thing overnight that if you had the magic power to change? Could be, of course, mindset shifts, could be everybody has a good circular toilet or could become something completely different. But if the possibilities are endless, what would your one change be?

SPEAKER_01 40:40

oh god this sounds like a trick question with the genie that you should never wish three wishes

SPEAKER_00 40:47

don't wish for more don't wish for more wishes that's for

SPEAKER_02 40:51

sure um you want to go first yes well one of the things is i think it's a bigger than one one thing but the relationship with our food not only where it comes from but what it eats and that really people see like if we can feel how how how much time it takes to grow a plant for example or how much you know it's just it's not there over there in the supermarket like this feeling of that you understand this this cycle maybe with a chip that's a bit but that you really feel that you really feel this energy that goes in and it's not just something I think if that would be so pivotal if people can really feel that instead of it's something outside of themselves

What should smart investors, who want to invest in Reg ag and food look out for?

SPEAKER_01 41:39

yeah I think I agree if I would have a magic wand I would let people really feel the dependence literally feel the dependence that we as humans have on the world or the soil the water around us and if we really experience that dependence and put ourselves back into the cycle that then magically the side effects will be that we suddenly think everything is possible and change it just like that.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

Yeah. And it's about, you know, we talk about mind shift, but it's really, of course, in essence, it is value-based, you know, because we talk about value and how to re-value, but how to value something in general, how to value how you, again, like your food, how it's grown, where it comes from. It's not something very technical, but I think that is, again, the basis of how we make our decisions and how we shape our worlds.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

And on the value side of things, and this is more on the financial side, what would you tell investors that are listening or people working in the financial sector that are looking for, of course, ways to put money to work and also be part of the next thing or the next wave and would ask that question, why now? What are interesting directions to, of course, without giving investment advice, but to dig a bit deeper or to understand, is this technology side? Is it much more the infrastructure side? Is it figuring out the connection between large amounts of shit and farmers or is the composting side like what what are exciting places that you would recommend or would tell people like look go go and spend some time there and go a bit deeper and go learn there if you are interested to at some point put put money at work and invest in this space

What would you do if you were in charge of a 1B investment portfolio tomorrow morning?

SPEAKER_01 43:37

I would just, I always joked like shit is golden. Just wait a few years when the phosphate mines are running out or geopolitically, there's a new crisis. Suddenly shit is what people need. Um, so I always say to my grandma, uh, how to explain what you do. Well, uh, wait a few years, grandma, you understand, I'll be rich with shit. Um, I think the deeper question that you're asking is well And I have to really think about it because from my point of view, I would say the magic wand answer really get people with this knowledge and this feeling, oh, I am part of this cycle. But I don't think that we understand our soil. I don't think that we understand how valuable it is, how important it is for the whole earth that soil It's the fundamental of everything that grows, of life itself. And I don't think we understand it and we don't know how it works. It's such a magical place that science has been done, but they don't understand how soil works, really, because it's so magical. And I wouldn't say do more research, but if I could point out one thing to people, like research that more, wonder about the magic of soil. And I think you will come back to us with a collection of your shit.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

And what would you do if you would be an investor and you had, say, a billion euros to put to work, which is an insane amount of money and nothing at the same time if we look at the financial sector? Where would you put it to work? I'm not asking for exact euro amounts. I'm asking for what would be your priority? Like I would focus maybe on soil science and measurements and setting up better soil labs or making, I don't know, soil life more visible that we understand it way better or something completely different. I would focus on a circular food company that also collects the shit or something like that like what would be your focus if you had let's say the resource of money um to to put to work in in a way that hopefully at some point it also comes back so definitely in a in an investment circular way what would both of you focus on

SPEAKER_02 46:16

i think um for for example now a lot of money is put into more knowledge i think which is very important but i also see we need more practical knowledge so um I think the investment would be more into a farmer or group of farmers that actually want to rebuild the way they are doing things, agriculture at the moment. And I wouldn't expect as an investor to be paid out immediately in the long run. I think it would be a long-term investment, something that I want to really see grow. And I really see there's so many farmers who want to be, like you said, nutrient recyclers, also want to protect nature in a way or of course a lot of farmers also don't know their land but a lot of farmers do know their lands and knew how to manage it so I think as an investor I would spend my money on that I think a lot of the practical knowledge very practical knowledge and also I think like investment like you said like that amount of money is such a small thing in the grand scheme of things so hopefully maybe as an investor I would also change the way money is being you know put it's not about a lot of investors want to be repaid or want to see something grow but I think as an investor I hope to be with my portfolio be like okay this is the money and I trust that this and this and this would happen and I want to see this and I want to recreate the value that is there but I hope not for the money I

SPEAKER_01 47:56

think yeah if we really talk about circular economy we need to redefine growth and profit. And what if profit is a healthy soil? Then every investor would invest in this project.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

And how did, as a final question, how did this change your, it's a weird question to ask, but how, how do you go to the toilet now? Like somewhere, like, is it always, do you always wonder about the treasure? Yeah. I was wondering, like, can you still go to the toilet without thinking about all of this? Probably not. And how, like you're in a theater and you, you, you showed the, um, the documentary and then you have to go, like, is that a, is that painful now as you're not obviously capturing it and the treasure goes?

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Um, well what we also end with in a documentary is we just hope that next time you go to the toilet you say or you think god damn it holy shit what a waste this is flushing it away and it's really what we hope to achieve is that people every time like us feel a little bit of pain physical pain flushing it away and we have that but but I have a consolation because on the toilet in my house, Jana made a poem about this shit adventure and it's next to my toilet. And every time I flush it, I read that poem and I find a little bit of healing from it. Out loud every time.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

Amazing. Yeah. And also I want to add, and maybe it's interesting because I'm so aware of it that also after documentary made that every toilet you go to oh yeah this is also not that one or when it is actually a circuit toilet or that you feel a bit more like you attributed something instead of just like okay you flushed and went away but I also want to add like as humans we're also of habits you know something that we're like also in me I sometimes feel comfortable with the fact that I'm not it's not put into my nose and that I flush and I forget sometimes also I'm also a flush of forget maybe I'm actually Fides I want you to know I also sometimes forget a confession moment but I think that's also really a confession time yeah it's already in a situation how we as humans are and that we really need to like rethinking something cause work but it also gives energy and I really enjoy working on this and getting humans back into the cycle yeah gives me purpose but sometimes I have to yeah get myself straight like again the toilet is not how I want it to be but it can be better

SPEAKER_00 50:53

I think it's a perfect way to end this conversation. Thank you so much for putting our attention in general, not just in this podcast, but on the human treasure. And I think it was called in English night soil. And let's shift the mindset to something that is inevitable. I mean, hopefully we don't need other massive crises, either geopolitical or environmental to understand that it doesn't make any sense to get rid of this human treasure as fast as possible and pay a lot of money for it or pay in general the environmental and social price we do pay for it. And let's go for the mind shift and then the technology and the infrastructure will follow. So thank you so much for taking the time here to bring the shit to the forefront and discuss something that we should discuss way more often, but we don't. So thank you for the work you do. And thank you for taking the time to come here and share about it.

SPEAKER_02 51:43

Thanks. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Thanks again and see you next time.