292 Walking the land with regenerative farmer Matteo Mazzola, Iside Farm

This is a special episode, the first one ever of the Walking the Land with a Regenerative Farmer, where we walk the land of the farm with a farmer while we talk about regeneration.

[On Youtube you can find a video version of this same conversation!]

Walking through Iside Farm on the Iseo Lake in Italy, with regenerative farmer Matteo Mazzola, we unlock the secrets of regenerative agriculture as we traverse the innovative landscapes crafted by Matteo, Paola and the Iside crew. We embark on a profound exploration of sustainable farming, showcasing Matteo's expertise in farm design, water systems, and the integration of olive trees and animals into the land. Learn how access ways are more than just paths across a farm; they're a vital component in the flow of energy and resources, helping to prevent erosion with concrete strips and alfalfa, and offering additional crop space. Matteo's wisdom extends to the creative reuse of shipping containers, illustrating a commitment to terraforming that marries functionality with environmental stewardship.

At Iside they don't just farm: they are crafting ecosystems where water management is an art and conservation a priority. The episode reveals an inventive water system where ponds atop container roofs serve a triple purpose: roofing, water storage, and purification. From aquaponics to sweet water mollusks, Matteo's methods for quality food production are a testament to his ingenious approach to agriculture. Hear about the noble efforts to combat drought in the Alps and the techniques that are breathing life into arid terrains, transforming them into lush waterscapes.

Our discussion further delves into the future of Iside Farm, the power of education, and the importance of distinguishing between consumers and customers when it comes to environmental responsibility. Matteo shares his vision about the synergy of beauty and function in landscapes, a reminder of the transformative potential that regenerative agriculture holds for creating more sustainable and inviting ecosystems.

---------------------------------------------------

Join our Gumroad community, discover the tiers and benefits on www.gumroad.com/investinginregenag. 

Support our work:

• Share it
• Give a 5-star rating
• Buy us a coffee… or a meal! www.Ko-fi.com/regenerativeagriculture

----------------------------------------------------

More about this episode on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/matteo-mazzola-2.

Find our video course on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/course.
----------------------------------------------------

The above references an opinion and is for information and educational purposes only. It is not intended to be investment advice. Seek a duly licensed professional for inves

https://foodhub.nl/en/opleidingen/your-path-forward-in-regenerative-food-and-agriculture/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:19

This is a very special episode, the first one ever where we walk the land with a regenerative farmer and talk about regeneration. This might turn into a series, so please let me know what you think Now, without further ado. Walking the land with Matteo Mazzola at Easy the Farm, Lago di Zeo, northern Italy, one of the leading regenerative farmers of Italy and, I dare to say, southern Europe. Enjoy. This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast. Investing as if the planet mattered, where we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return. Why my focus on soil and regeneration? Because so many of the pressing issues we face today have their roots in how we treat our land and our sea, grow our food, what we eat, wear and consume, and it's time that we as investors big and small and consumers, start paying much more attention to the dirt slash soil underneath our feet. To make it easy for fans to support our work, we launched our membership community and so many of you have joined us as a member. Thank you If our work created value for you and if you have the means and only if you have the means consider joining, joining us. Find out more on gumroadcom investing in regen ag. That is, gumroadcom investing in regen ag, or find the link below. Welcome at this.

Speaker 1: 2:10

First of many or we don't know yet because it's a pilot first of many episodes where we walk the land. So we call it Walk the Land with a Farmer. I didn't want to call you a regenerative farmer, because then we have to define it, but it's for us to explore this episode as well. The format is very simple. We are with a farmer, matteo Mazzola. Welcome back to the show. Third time, thank you. And we are on the land and we both have two feet.

Speaker 1: 2:35

So we're going to walk the land, we are going to talk. We're going to try to make it as visual as possible because, of course, you're all listening. I don't know where you're. You might be in a car, you might be on the land. You might be packing eggs, like I know some people are when they listen to the podcast. You might be painting and you might be listening on other places. You might be commuting, you might be walking, actually. So we try to make it as visually as possible if you haven't been on the land of mateo paula, you don't maybe don't know what we're talking about. If you have been here, you might recognize pieces. So that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 3:07

And I wanted to start with the beginning of the farm. You often start tours here, which is also an important point for the water access. So the last time we were on the show was two and a half years ago, which feels like a lifetime. A lot has happened in the time, but I would love to take this opportunity with you and see the land, feel the land, hear the land, maybe taste the land a bit as well, smell it definitely, and see where we get. So thank you so much for being part of this experiment and let's go Super. And I think maybe some people can hear it depends a bit on the microphone, we'll see. You can hear a bit of the blub, blub, blub, blub, blub of the water. If you describe have to describe the beginning of the farm, when people come in, they come down the driveway. Yeah, the axis, the main axis, the main axis. What is your? We hear a beautiful church starting to ring. What's your main philosophy behind the axis way?

Speaker 2: 4:03

What's your main philosophy behind the access way? Well, access is an extremely important, vital element of the farms. It's where the energy flows, it's where the resources flow in and out from the farm, it's what allows the farmer, and also the animals, to access different niches, different areas of the farm. So it's a sort of arterial system of the farm.

Speaker 1: 4:35

And it's often overlooked right the roads on the farm or the access ways it doesn't have to be roads, but paths etc. Are such a fundamental non-productive from a growing something, and actually in this case it's not the moment I said it I realized that's not true, but it's such an under-neglected, undervalued piece. So what did you do with your accessway, which is a road, quite steep, very steep down from another steep asphalt road?

Speaker 2: 5:00

Yeah, what was your thinking there? The water catchment is quite big, so when it rains, even not much, a lot of water is collected through the access, and so it turned a barren land which was eroded during every rain event, so very difficult also to access it with cars after after big storms. So we just decided to put some, a couple of two strips of concrete in order to have the access for vehicles, trucks and and tractors and so on. Um, also big enough to to have big machineries for the, the building sites and and if we need bigger materials. And then between the strip and in in between the strips and on the side of the strips, we grew alfalfa, which we use, of course, to make hay in order to integrate some proteins in the animal diets when it's needed, especially during winter or when and if it's very dry during summertime.

Speaker 2: 6:17

And of course, we also have on the side some crops. We have some olive trees, we also have on the side some crops, we have some olive trees. So it's very good to have some grass rather than dirty soil, because otherwise the olive nets, they get all muddy and the olives they have to be washed, which is not something that we want to do and then, yeah, so it's a sort of diversification, multiplication of opportunities that an axis can give and again has to be studied properly with the right materials. Has to be studied the slope and based on the slope you use a certain material or a certain management. And the third or fourth element that we get out from this axis is water harvesting. So we have ditches in every 15, 20 meters that collects the water that is running on the surface and then is harvested in an underground pipe that then goes to storage tanks further down the system.

Speaker 1: 7:33

So not only a dirty access road, which it was, which was expensive and difficult to maintain. Every time it rained, even a bit, because it's very steep, it turned into alfalfa, which you cut regularly, of course, otherwise you cannot pass with with cars anymore and you harvest water and it keeps your olive nets clean as well. And, and just to give an idea, the amount of water you, you harvest through this small access road, because it's not very long, it's very steep but it's not very long, like, do you have an idea of how much that is and how, how it changes? Because it's it's not very long. Do you have an idea of how much that is and how?

Speaker 2: 8:07

it changes Because it's a lot. It's quite a few liters. Well, depending on the average rain, we can go between a million to a million and a half liters of water, of rainwater. But this is the first step, because then there is already a whole idea on how to use also the water that comes from the main road, the village road, from where our access starts.

Speaker 2: 8:39

Millions per year of rainwater that we could harvest or infiltrate or just purify, and with phytodepuration and bioremediation techniques, because of course, if they're polluted, yeah, it could be, it could be, but it's good. So it's good also to analyze it and to understand. Let's say, after 20 millimeters of rain you harvest it, at the beginning after 10 minutes and then after 20 minutes of rain, and you check how fast the oils and all the pollutants dilute exactly. So we could create a whole system that would separate the first waters dirty and polluted water and then we could treat it with different techniques based on what could be the pollutants that we could find, and then the rest it could be used to, either to infiltrate in the soil or to be used and stored and used.

Speaker 1: 9:39

Then and it's been a few years now. Are you that you put this, the different systems, let's say, in place? Are you happy with the result?

Speaker 2: 9:46

yeah, it works just just perfectly. It can become more, more complex. We still have some, some features, uh, like the, the sidewalls, because we are on a terrace land, so especially here, where there is the access, uh, at the mountain side, we have a concrete wall that holds the whole above terrace, and also there is a beautiful sun trap and and heat trap where we could grow climbers or trees that need higher temperature, and but this it will happen maybe in the next couple of years Because you've been busy, so let's take a few steps.

Speaker 1: 10:26

When we walk down, the first bit is definitely water collection. As you can hear, we now walk on some looser stones it's not as steep anymore, but also here, I think you're planning to put some ditches at some point to collect this runoff as well.

Speaker 2: 10:41

Yeah, here is a different situation where we have less slope, as you said, and we already built on the mountainside the stone wall which has got inside the stone wall. At the base there are drainage pipes, so you catch already a lot of water.

Speaker 2: 11:03

Well, now we catch all the underground water that comes from above, so we don't get wet access, which is the first important thing. Remove as fast as you can, or most efficiently, the water on the axis, because it's what creates erosion in, what creates problems with the axis itself, and then we will need to build perpendicular ditches on this, on this section of the road, in order to collect the water through the stone wall and then inside the drainage pipe which will carry the water to the storage system.

Speaker 1: 11:53

We cover the yeah Aromatics.

Speaker 2: 11:54

Above the wall. The particularity about this wall is that we created it's a drywall, but it's not a vertical drywall has got a, let's say, a 45 angle towards, uh, thor's appeal. This was done as an experiment in order to to build faster walls that holds themselves, uh, in a more efficient way during a long period, because the soil sits on the top of the wall and it pushes it, so it gives strength to the wall as well, as we planted above the stone wall lots of aromatics that we use to produce herb, salt and infusions and essential oils and hydrolates and many different produce, and all of these plants, little by little, they are growing on the wall because, again, it's not vertical, but it's got this 45 degrees slope and so it's a sort of bed that can be used for the plants to grow and to grow on it. So, yeah, this wall, it was built in a couple of people with also big stones, and it was quite fast and at the moment it's working properly. But, yeah, let's wait a few more years.

Speaker 1: 13:35

And then we approach the building site, which has changed dramatically in two and a half years. I remember the containers arriving two years ago I think, on the back of a small truck barely making it down the road, but now they are fixed in their position, they're being part of the hill actually, because you covered it up. There's a beautiful grass that's growing above it. That really exploded the last two weeks and with a gentle rain we had, and, and now it feels like like a hill again. So walk us through what we have here. There are three sets of containers, let's say three sets of structures. Yeah, there's again water. You can hear in the background, which is where the pipe ends, I think. Oh, no, the pipe ends there.

Speaker 2: 14:26

Let's start with the water there. What do we hear? So what we hear now is just a pump circling water in the pool that we are using now as a water tank and from where we start our irrigation system. I think, paola, she has just added some fertilizer to the water, so she's mixing the water, and then, obviously, fossil fuel based, right.

Speaker 1: 14:53

Fossil fuel based yeah, there's nice beds you can buy, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:59

And basically from there it starts the fert irrigation system towards, either by gravity fed from the tank lower down or it's pumped with a small pump, little by little, to the highest spot in the farm where we have other tanks, and from there again, again, we have gravity fed fert irrigation and irrigation system.

Speaker 2: 15:25

Um, in the future we hope maybe already this winter we will see if the town hall will allow us, otherwise we will have to find other solutions we will build a pond, a half million liters pond, which is what we need in order to have, together with the storage system that I'll tell you in a few minutes about. We will need this half million liters in order to have enough storage for the summer months where, of course, we need the highest amount of water. We have water spring, but we prefer more and more to use it as less as we can, the least we can, because it's very high the pH and also there are beautiful organisms growing in in that small water course. So we don't want to private the, the yeah, the water course of its water and where do you plan to build the pond?

Speaker 2: 16:31

the pond is going to be in the highest spot. We are very lucky because there is a is a terrace land, so there is not not really a future of valleys and ridges, valleys and ridges, but up there being the highest spot, uh, there is a small valley. Where is it's just very. It was made for our pond, so let's see if we get permission to yeah I believe the town hall has to give us this is so perfect for, for and then we turn around and it's definitely.

Speaker 1: 17:00

It's also actually water. We can't see at the moment, but the water is a very important feature here. I see a 40 feet container in front of me and actually two that are connected to each other. That created a workspace and a roof above it, carried by a beautiful wood, and so describe to us the philosophy behind these two containers. Of course, interesting, I mean not now. We're recording this in October 2023. Prices of empty containers have gone through the roof. You were luckily able to buy them when the prices were still down. They will come down again, but what's the philosophy of putting this structure specifically here and what are you doing with it?

Speaker 2: 17:48

So there is a lot of planning behind a lot of planning and thinking and observation behind this whole project. The original idea and still like this is to think that we are on a planet that has to be terraformed. So you have to start with structures that are very simple, very easy to build, not too expensive, as well modular, so you can scale the system, you can multiply it or you can start another dwelling somewhere else on the planet that you have to terraform. In this case, we have to re-terraform planet.

Speaker 1: 18:32

Earth, because it really needs a little bit of regeneration at this point, and so why do you specifically use that term terraform?

Speaker 2: 18:35

Terraform Because you have to create the terra.

Speaker 1: 18:38

Yeah, basically, the Terra is in soil or it's broader than that.

Speaker 2: 18:43

It's to create the planet Earth where else there is no life.

Speaker 1: 18:48

So, basically, so instead of going to Mars, which is very fancy at the moment Exactly. We say let's terraform Earth, re-terraform Earth, let's re-earth the earth because Create the conditions for us to thrive, because we've done some damage there or some.

Speaker 2: 19:06

Yeah, yeah, we mine at the foundations of the cycles and the patterns and the processes that allow life, all form of life, to live properly and in abundance and with the possibility for the future generations to manifest and to evolve and to connect and to create an even better planet. So life doesn't have boundaries. When we talk about the possibility that can be created, I mean this planet is already beautiful like this, but I imagine periods where the planet was even better before humans did what they did, and I believe that really functional beauty it doesn't have borders. We can't imagine how much production, how much abundance, how much, how many processes can interweave if a system is, if we let the systems or we help the natural system to manifest themselves as they should.

Speaker 1: 20:22

Because that's a very fundamental word. There too, the switch you made from let to help. I think there's a whole school of philosophy going for we are the problem. And if you just remove humans and let quote, unquote rewild or regenerate nature by itself, which in some cases it might does, but you're saying it can go faster if we help and if we facilitate as and this is a topic that keeps coming back in the podcast logically as a keystone species, as a species that facilitates, interact and helps instead of removes itself, put a big fence around it and waits from the airco office for nature to do the work.

Speaker 1: 21:08

So how does that modular, flexible, almost humble as well I mean some big structures here, but not enormous how does that fit into that mindset of we need to re-terraform, regenerate and it's our role in that like what's? How does that philosophy manifest itself in this physical things we see here with water catchment on the roof, fishes down, um, a container full of, uh, of I was gonna say toys I mean tools and toys um. How does it manifest itself in this shape and form and in this?

Speaker 2: 21:43

context. So basically, you can't see them, but these structures, they are mainly under soil, so they are surrounded by soil and there is soil above and the idea is that when you start to terraform a planet, you need structures, because, if we think about Axis, road is one.

Speaker 2: 22:07

Yeah yeah, axis very important, water extremely important, but structures for humans, they are very important. I mean, if I think about humans in the past, I straight away think about caves. So these are caves. Caves, why caves? Because it's from our archetypal point of view, is the nest, is what protects, what has been protecting us, and it does it in many different ways. Because it narrows the entrance where you can protect your family and yourself from what is happening outside. It protects from temperature, it protects from heat and cold, it protects from rain and so on. So these are caves, modern caves. Of course, they're made of iron and and basically the idea of having structures under the soil is that you, we underground structures or semi underground structures, it allow us not to waste space that has to be used by nature to produce photosynthesis and all the ecosystem services and so on.

Speaker 1: 23:18

that's why you cover them, because otherwise you just have 40 foot grade of storage, actually twice 40 foot, so 80, but on top would be a Just water harvesting.

Speaker 2: 23:28

Let's say water harvesting and solar panels and so on. Fine, but there are already so many structures in the world that can either harvest water or where you can put solar panels. Actually, one part of the structure, which is the only part that you can really see how would you call this? The porch?

Speaker 1: 23:50

The patio, yeah, the porch, the terrace, like it's a roof terrace basically.

Speaker 2: 23:54

Yeah, exactly. So basically it is the only part that can store directly, not store, collect directly the water and it can sweat for solar panels and so on. So space efficiency, not wasting space not to cementify the land. Space not to cementify the land, and also from thermal reason, temperature reasons. We have now structures that are protected by the soil, so heat and cold, they are managed in a more efficient way. Plus, we did a geothermal system of very simple air cooling or air heating, where there are some pipes going down deeper in the soil, where the temperature is always stable, and then they are coming out and ending in the structure, and with a simple system of vents you can really cool down the temperature during summertime and heat it up during the wintertime. Then we have different structures with different functions. The idea is that every single structure will pay itself with economical activities and ecological activities as well, because we also have to pay the ecosystems and not just ourselves. And so every single structure will pay itself and can be, and has to be, replicable or scalable. It doesn't have to be with the same material, it doesn't have to be with the same design, but the principles is something very important If you are in a place where you have lots of mud, clay and so on.

Speaker 2: 25:37

You can use clay. We have stones. At the time we were planning this project, designing this project, shipping containers were still very cheap, so it was the the right choice for us and simple and fast. Now we should study something different. So the this building site wants to be this structure. They want to be also a display of different techniques that you can be, you can use, based on where you are and what you, what you have locally, and in fact, we have wooden structure made of chest, local chestnuts. We have the shipping container. We have concrete blocks from wasted concrete. We have stone structures. We have stone walls. We have gabion walls made with stones that we collected in this site. So many, many, many different types of structures.

Speaker 2: 26:37

Then the whole system, as you were saying, kun, is characterized, yeah. Structures. Then the whole system, as you were saying, cool, is you say, characterized? Yeah, the peculiarity of this system is that has to be a system rich in water, because water allows you to produce super high quality food and and services and biomass in very small space, with high efficiency and by having the system confined in tanks and structure where the water flows, nutrients and elements is very difficult, that they would migrate and you would lose them. You don't have erosion, you don't have all of those elements that in a system in an open field, it would be much easier to lose by evaporation, by erosion, by infiltration, leaching and so on.

Speaker 2: 27:42

So we have this whole system where, on top of the container roofs, we have water tanks, water ponds, which are 10 centimeters deep, which actually I found out being the cheapest solution to make a roof, because really, at the time we built built them, there was a EPDM rubber, which is also one of the most sustainable rubbers that you can use, is a toxic, recyclable and and certified for for 50, 60 years, with no problem of use under the sun, and it's just a tarp, a little bit of expanded clay, like five centimeter, just to make the roof of the shipping container flatter and to insulate a little bit, and then this rubber, which allow us to spend, I think, 800, let's say, 1,000 euros per 60 square meter, which is nothing Plus these ponds. They act as water storage, water harvesting, and we will plant in three different structures In one. We will have a classic aquaponics system where hydroponics, let's say where we will have floating salads hydroponics, let's say there, where we will have floating salads. Also, we will be able to to build a greenhouse or a hoop house during the colder months in order to to keep the the water warmer and to extend the growing season. And then another another pond that would be this year we will try to grow rice, because I come from a paddy field area, so I really like it and I also like to produce things that we eat, and so we'll try to produce rice, which is a beautiful plant because it absorbs nutrients from the soil, which is what we need, and it absorbs nutrients from the soil, which is what we need, and it oxygenates.

Speaker 2: 29:44

And then the third pond will be fodder for fish, because this whole system basically of ponds is one of the functions is to clear and purify the water that comes from fish tanks I'm going backward in the system and then the pond will receive then water from sediment tanks and oxygenation tanks, which are there are two other factor of the in the system, in the process of fish production and vegetables and biomass production above in the in the ponds, and then we have five tanks where we'll have different species of fish.

Speaker 2: 30:33

We'll choose the the most efficient, the most resilient, the ones that maybe can be grown mainly with farm fodder, farm waste, farm residues, and really the idea is to maximize the use of space and the use of resources in order to produce a super high quality food, as is fish. There is one of the roof pond pond I forgot, which is deeper than the other one, so there will be no, no, no plans, but the idea is to experiment, how you call them, mollusks, sweet water mollusks, which are water filters, and it would be very interesting to to experiment which species can be used, because all of this then can be applied to natural system to increase the cleaning of the water, the oxygenation and so on. So it will be a water lab, which will extend also outside, in other ponds and other structures on the geodesic dome, also to grow tropical fish. So the water will be heated by a thermal composting system and many other different techniques that we, which is fitting here because we're next to you cannot see it?

Speaker 1: 32:01

quite a big lake, I mean it's not one of the big ones in.

Speaker 1: 32:04

Italy but it's still a significant water body, very degraded and in need of some Help, some aqua formation, terra formation, yeah, in need of some help, yeah, so it's interesting that this farm and many people might look at mostly the market garden, the animals and agroforestry system and you describe it mostly, or firstly, as as a lab, as a water lab, and it's the first functions people see when they come here, and that is of course, also connecting that piece of the land with the water backwards and forwards, and and even in a place where water doesn't seem so scarce I think you have quite normally quite wet winters you're very conscious of um, storing water capture, sorry, capturing, storing, cleaning, and because, do you see, like?

Speaker 1: 32:55

Because it's a limiting factor also here, the quantity of water and the quality of water. Water, you see, might be becoming a more limiting factor in the future. Or why are you spending so much energy and time on water? Is it for the fishes? Or is it also because you're worried that you don't have enough to, let's say, push the agriculture piece to its biological limits?

Speaker 2: 33:21

Basically, it's a changing paradigm when we look at water. I don't want to fight desertification. We want to conquer the land that could be desertified.

Speaker 1: 33:35

And even here, where everything seems green, even in October, desertification. You see it as a threat.

Speaker 2: 33:43

Well, yeah, I mean desertification in the Alps, one of the most sensitive areas, I think, in Europe, especially on the south side. They are observing so many phenomena, so many effects of desertification. It's changing a lot, because of the temperature, because of the rain, because of lack of snow, because of the mismanagement or the bad management of the mountain where there are big slopes, and so on.

Speaker 1: 34:22

It's actually more in danger of disruption because of the slopes.

Speaker 2: 34:29

Slope and as well extremes in temperatures, so there is no continuous presence of active vegetation. Is uh, which is one of the the elements that so?

Speaker 2: 34:44

no, not enough photosynthesis uh, yeah covering soil, covering, active soil covering, and yeah and so yeah, the idea is is to do what nature would do, which is to try to find ways to improve ecosystems, either with proper genetics or with, let's say, we are trying to do what desert plants learn to do in millions of years of evolution to store water, to hold water and to use it when it's needed.

Speaker 2: 35:18

If there is no water, you have to create the conditions to have the water, because if there is no water, you have to create the conditions to have the water, because if there is no water, there is no life.

Speaker 2: 35:24

And so I always suggest to everybody to water fast for for a day and to realize what it means not to have water in our body, and then to empathize with animals and to the vegetation and microorganisms that doesn't have water during a very dry year, like, for example, the last year. And you really see that economy fails, people, animal and plant metabolism fails, society and culture fails if there is no water. So we don't want to get to a point where there will be water fights, and so we are trying to integrate all of the technologies, all the systems, modern and ancient, in order to create waterscapes and then can be extended on a broader scale. Because more farmers, more land managers and stewards of the land will manage the water properly, more abundance will be created, also from economy point of view. Should we walk there, yep, do you want to know about the mushroom? Or we go on, I think, because they keep talking.

Speaker 1: 36:41

Okay, yeah, yeah. And do you feel the conversation on water is changing? I mean, we've been focusing a lot on water cycles etc. With the podcast, so I feel my bubble is shifting. Everybody seems to be talking about water, but of course it is because I'm talking to mostly people that are talking about water. Have you felt in the last years, any shift in water consciousness?

Speaker 2: 37:20

Not by the consumers. I mean, nobody cares here. At least nobody cares really about water Just the last year when there was no water to irrigate the industrial flatland, the corn and sorghum and so on.

Speaker 1: 37:43

People got a bit concerned, but your fellow, let's say, regenerative travelers, do you see more conversation about water?

Speaker 2: 37:51

it's increasing it's increasing, yeah, qualities, the way, but I still see, I still see there is not enough, uh, experience, not enough capacity of imagining what doesn't exist. That needs to be done very, very, very fast.

Speaker 1: 38:09

It's something that we need to do so fast.

Speaker 2: 38:11

Otherwise, what is the problem? There is always time and space and money to make new wells, deeper wells and deeper wells and to steal water from water bodies. And I mean, look what is happening in Afghanistan, look what is happening in Egypt, where they are diverting rivers in the desert in order to create production where you shouldn't be producing, because evaporation is too high and there is no place for monoculture. I mean, there is place maybe for a few decades, but but then you destroy completely different systems. Or, uh, going deep, so deep that you, you, you reach fossil, fossil water, is just like, for me it doesn't, it doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2: 38:58

So, uh, because there is so much water that can be stored, that comes from the rain and and is present in the air, which is really is stupid, it's just like a suicide not thinking, uh, first of all to store what we have to collect, to infiltrate and to use properly what is already there. So I don't believe in big projects of concrete dams that divert and and completely change the, the, the landscape and the ecosystems and and the way and the way the landscape behaved. I really believe on small solutions on many, many, many different farms applied in the cities, where there are consumers, where there are people that have to know that the landscape outside the cities has to be used in a different way. But it's good to start pilot projects in the city because but also in the city.

Speaker 1: 40:11

We had Professor Mian Mian on to talk about the missing rains in Spain, the summer rains, and because the marshes have been concreted like paved over, building hotels and all of that on the coast, and he was like, yeah, if you have to first of all restore, plant a lot of trees just when the slopes are going up to recharge a lot of these clouds that are still there but just cannot discharge. And of course will be great to remove all the hotels and build back the marshes, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. But you have to create at least more water friendly, less concrete, more plants, more water infiltration stuff, more evaporation, so the clouds that do come off the Mediterranean get some charge from, instead of just a huge hit of heat and you lose everything. So, yeah, I think it has to be brought even within cities. And the water discussion is heating up quickly now, I think, because we go from drought to fire to flood not always fire, but in many cases floods and it's just getting, seems to be getting out of control.

Speaker 1: 41:24

What is not getting out of control is where we're walking now. Also, actually, the Kiwis are getting out of control. I remember this path from a few years ago and of course they're not ready this October, but they look very impressive. We're walking under a sort of trellis road covered with kiwis. What's the reasoning behind the kiwis?

Speaker 2: 41:45

Again, it's to give more functions to an access and to protect, because it's an earth access. There is grass growing more and more, we are managing it and so it's growing to protect the compacted soil by the tractor or by people walking more times, a few times a day, and but still the idea is to it was, and that's what we are doing, little by little, is to cover from above the access in order to not have the strong impact of strong rains that erodes the soil of the axis, which is actually normally very compact, and so the water flows on the surface. So, growing grass, growing on top of it, the kiwis and the nice thing about the kiwis is that you can produce something super high value and without really using space, because they are growing on top of the axis, on top of the farm road, and they're easy to pick because they grow above your head.

Speaker 1: 42:57

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 42:58

They're easy to pick and, as well as they cool down the area that normally will have the least cover in vegetation, because it's an axis and so is being it, a arterial part of the main arterial system or, or, yeah, the peripheral system, the, the dendritic system sorry, the is a sort of cooling that happens along the whole main axis of the farm, which is good to move air, which is good to give opportunity also to people, to the farmer, to to have, uh, to have shade, because it's something during summer it start to be very, very difficult to to stay under the sun the whole day, so it's good to create a functional shade, which has to be also productive.

Speaker 2: 43:51

We could have put nets, but why to put nets where you can put production? Yeah, and the system in between the kiwis which are growing on the side of the axis there are still some aromatics and official herbs and in in between the kiwis. We also planted, we experimented with some poplars that will grow tall and will thin the bottom branches in order to have a canopy that protects the kiwis from excess sun and hail events and storms and so on.

Speaker 1: 44:26

And then through this archery we get to some animals, the donkeys, Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 44:33

Here there are. Why donkeys, Sheep and donkeys. Sheep and donkeys, the sheep are in the back.

Speaker 1: 44:38

You moved them this morning.

Speaker 2: 44:40

Yeah, we moved them a few times a day in order to keep them quite compact in numbers and, at the same time, to have this natural competition between the animals that eat everything or most of the food that they find in every small move.

Speaker 2: 45:00

So we have an impact of pruning, heavy pruning on the herbaceous plant of the pasture, which is what they need in order to recover and to and to regenerate and to restart and to cover the soil more and more every time that the animal graze on them, after the sheep, that they are the one the animals at least in this system that they need the highest quality of fodder. They come here, he comes, the donkey, which is the desert animal, so it needs more fibrous, less rich in protein, less green, less lush vegetation, which actually could be also detrimental for their guts and after them. Normally now in this period we don't have them, but normally there would be chickens and other birds, farm birds to reduce the number of parasites, to distribute the dung and to finish the pasture that wasn't finished by the sheep and the donkeys. Act with mimicry, the sort of natural pattern of herbivores and all the levels of animals that go through the pasture or the silvopastural system.

Speaker 1: 46:21

And to talk about those, the silvo part, the trees, how have they responded? Because they were here, that you found them.

Speaker 2: 46:29

You didn't plant them the olive trees, the olive trees. How?

Speaker 1: 46:32

have they responded to? Um years of like, a couple of years, actually, a couple of years, like, since the animals have have arrived. How have you seen them respond? How is the the quality and quantity of oil change the taste? Have you seen impact on on the trees?

Speaker 2: 46:51

difficult to say, very difficult to say for one main reason every year we had a completely different climate. Okay, we had, we missed uh productions. This year there is very little olives. The last year there was not a lot, but that's because either we have rains heavy rains during the flowering, or this year there is very little olives. The last year there was not a lot, but that's because either we have rains heavy rains during the flowering, or this year we had multiple hail, very strong winds and super heat and then lots of water, so stressful conditions for for, for the trees. The vegetative growth is is good, but maybe it's also connected because we we reform the, the shape, so it could be also for that. For sure. You see that the pasture, uh species. They increase in number, the increase in production. Uh, there's a lot of insects around. They are really increasing because of the dung, because the animal itself is an element of the landscape full of resources, which is a concentration of resources, and insects they increase when there is abundance.

Speaker 1: 48:05

From that point of view, and do you ever see olive trees of your neighbours, etc. That don't get this treatment or don't get this feast of animals around them? But it's of course impossible to compare because circumstances ploughing, spraying it's very different.

Speaker 2: 48:23

Yeah, there are so many variables. We should have done a control patch without animals and with analysis of the produce before and after. But you need, for a plant like olive tree, which is a perennial and very particular, you really need lots of time, also because the content of the olives is very much connected also to to climate and to the particular year and so on. So, yeah, that's, that's very difficult to say.

Speaker 1: 48:56

It would be nice to say yes, because there are things that I observe, but I I can't really, uh, not consistently yeah, and then something that happened or not, hasn't come to full fruition yet, but you did manage to purchase a missing piece of the farm, which is hidden behind some big trees here, but it's an old monastery, a ruin.

Speaker 1: 49:21

There's no monastery, but there is, and I think it's going to take a central piece in your education plans. You've been very busy with the work side, of course. Over the last years, as everybody knows, or at least in Europe, prices have exploded, so you got very involved to try to manage that process, which seems to be coming to an end now, or seems to be coming to a closure, which means, as I know you, more focus on education, focus on training, focus on. So how is your thinking? Are your hands itching that you're done with the containers and done with that piece, and maybe not done with the fishes, because that's just starting, but done with the digging and all of that? What is in your mind now, as that process is coming, that phase is coming to an end and the next succession of this this place is starting, starting to take take shape yeah, I mean, this is very much connected.

Speaker 1: 50:15

This will be another work site, by the way, because it's a ruin.

Speaker 2: 50:17

That is not an easy place it's not an easy place, no, definitely, but still, the new structures, the container structures that will allow to start anyway. Uh, what, what it will be? It will be potentiated in the ruins once we manage to rebuild them. The idea is really to start from children, kids education, and to reach the consumer, not just education about environment, ecology.

Speaker 1: 50:45

Do you like the word consumer? I've heard people say customer is nice, a consumer is like where? You can see like I don't know, I haven't yet made up my mind. Some people are really against it and they might be listening, um, but like what? What do you? I don't see it as a negative.

Speaker 2: 51:00

I mean we have to take the responsibility of being primary producers or or not. I mean a cow is not tree, is not. It's consuming what the tree has been, has been doing but is also the important thing is that the consumer it consumes, but while consuming it produces positive effects either.

Speaker 1: 51:24

So you're building some proper compost toilets here, I'm imagining.

Speaker 2: 51:28

No, I don't like the idea of compost toilets.

Speaker 1: 51:31

Ken, when you're opening your I was going to say restaurant concept, but that's not a word when people can come and eat here, which I know is in the plans, will there be a discount if you go to the toilet, so you let something here, or?

Speaker 2: 51:46

not, it depends. It depends what you ate before. Yeah, it depends if they got drugs or hormones and things like that. I mean it could be a problem for us in fact, I'm already thinking about the whole system of water purification, because I I don't like the idea of compost toilets because they they are high time resort consuming. I prefer to use water to move solids and to dilute the waste in in water and then to manage that, uh, that water. I find it so if we go back to the consumer piece.

Speaker 1: 52:22

Yeah, because you you, you have to consume and produce and let that's not something let's say human consumers have done very well. Is that part of the education? You say we start with children yep, which we might hear in the background, actually, which is great. Um, which means they're doing fine among them, our children, and like what the okay? You start with as young and get to the consumer, which they are, of course, also consumer. What's your thinking there in terms of education, in terms of sensory exploration?

Speaker 2: 52:59

Well, there has to be a very important education on general ecology and where is our place, where, uh where is our function of as humans, uh, in ecosystem, and what we can do to ensure, uh, a good future for for our species and all the other species which we are all connected and if everybody is safe and and and good things can, can evolve properly.

Speaker 1: 53:27

and ecology about food production, about food transformation, we really want to to open a sort of school of regenerative gastronomy where people can understand how to multiply the, the, the positive functions of food in in the body, not just in the body, which is an important point because I think often we go into this mindset of everything has to be fresh, everything has to be and you're saying, actually, in the dirty word, quote, unquote I'm doing air quotes nobody sees that of processing, of transforming, transforming is a much nicer word. You can multiply, you can add, you can, which might also give a future to food companies. Like it doesn't have to be all fresh of the tree or fresh of, etc. Etc. There is a a transformation possible, positive transformation possible, but we have to relearn that. I think in many minds now we're going down okay, ultra processed food, obviously, but that doesn't mean by definition, processing and transformation is a bad thing. Like it depends where, which direction you go.

Speaker 2: 54:31

Look at fermentation yeah, look at cabbage, which becomes more digestible and more nutritious if it's fermented. Many other foods which is better to Sorry, yeah to be processed, to be transformed, to be cooked, to be cured, and so that's a very big missing brick in the structure of our modern culture. We lost most of the time. We lost the knowledge of our ancestors, of our great-grandfathers and grandmothers, in the kitchen and how to harvest, when to harvest, how to eat it and how to make the best use of what you're collecting and what you're consuming of the landscape. So, really, it's so much connected and I think we'll manage to reach, as a farm, many, many, many more people and to have a higher impact from a cultural point of view, talking about food rather than agriculture, because agriculture is still seen as a niche for uh, for primitive people and geeks, and and so I still see the phase of people I mean we are not managing farming we say we spend most of our time talking about farming and then I always now add like it's the investing in regenerative agriculture and food let's make sure

Speaker 1: 55:53

yeah, because, yeah, it's much more. It's culture, it's it's everybody discusses it, depending a bit on the culture where you go, but everybody talks about it. Most people are luckily enough to at least do two meals a day. Many places three, three and like, everybody has an opinion, everybody has a flavor, everybody has pet peeves, everybody has diets, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, it's a much more connective piece. Have you seen any changes? You said not so much on the water piece but on the food conscious. You've done quite a few tours, less so this year, last year because of the construction site, but you get easily. Last saturday 30, 40 people in in a second are here on the farm because they really want to see what's happening. Have you seen food consciousness, also with the customers of your csa, change a bit over the last years? Is there? Is there change in the air there?

Speaker 2: 56:47

let's say yeah, yeah, not as much as you want is happening. No, I still see that, um, people, I think, uh, don't think enough with their brain and with the guts, but they tend to follow rather than trying to comprehend what they're doing, what they're eating, why they're eating, why they should eat or should not eat something. It's just there's a lot of trust. For example, we were speaking at the beginning of the tour on Saturday.

Speaker 2: 57:25

I was saying what's the point of going and trying to find the best quality organic food when you're not drinking? You're drinking water full of chlorine or very low quality and, in the volume and weight, is more the water than the food that we eat every day. So I would really rather for those people to start from the fundamentals rather than being consumers, blind consumers, and buying the organic food because it has been taught that it's better. But we have to think first about our metabolism, about our gut, our microbiome, which really needs certain things rather than others. And so I think it's very important to empower people, to give them, to make them conscious that they have a great opportunity in creating their own picture and really getting to a level where they can comprehend, because now there are so many information out there, very accessible to everybody, so, but it's important that everyone start to listen to himself or herself, because we are all completely different, so food and the landscape will interact with us in a completely different way, and I don't believe that there should be recipes for people.

Speaker 1: 58:52

It's good to explore, of course, with specialists and so on, but at the same time, to have clear ideas of the fundamentals of ecology functions and food functions and body functions, and it's difficult to say, but but if you had to mention, okay, what's the first fundamental you usually mention to people when they say I'm a bit lost with food and I come here and I feel overwhelmed because there's so much and so much to learn, what's the basic there, or the basic fundamentals, you say, okay, start from here.

Speaker 2: 59:29

To observe, to be curious.

Speaker 1: 59:33

When you eat, how you eat, how your body responds.

Speaker 2: 59:37

Yeah, listen to yourself, listen to the landscape.

Speaker 2: 59:39

I mean, I see many people buying lettuce and keeping the lettuce for hours or for days in the fridge or maybe even outside the fridge, not realizing that when they will be eating that lettuce, that there will be nothing good for the body.

Speaker 2: 59:55

Maybe a little bit of fiber, but it will be discharged of most of the vitamins and active nutrients and the sap and the chlorophyll would be gone, would be oxidized. But it's normal that the plants that produce fruits with seeds, which are made to store because they have to reach either a gut or the wind or the water, or somehow the next year in order to grow in the proper season, or somehow the next year in order to grow in the proper season. So I look at the sheep and I say, oh, I should be eating, like them, the green stuff in order to feel good, or I should cut it and dry it in the most gentle way and eat it dry rather than leave it wilting and losing all its energy. This is a very small example which is, for me, is very symbolic because it's and based on observation.

Speaker 1: 1:00:55

How have you like lately, the last year? Let's say, what have you changed in your diet, in your eating?

Speaker 2: 1:01:02

I personally have to admit that when you have so many things to do and you run all the time, I think many people are going to be very relieved that you're going to say you're not perfect on the road no, no, no no, it's difficult.

Speaker 2: 1:01:18

It's difficult. We are lucky because when I walk the land, I keep on eating stuff. We have our meat, we have local farmers, we have beautiful produce, we have vegetables, we have fruits, meat, we have local farmers, we have beautiful produce, we have vegetables, we have fruits. I would say that the most correct um nutrition that I have is when I walk the land and I work around, because I eat, I try, I I'm concentrate on trying on understanding what the landscape is, is uh, is uh, providing but then you're traveling, you're doing consultancy X, y, z, far, not far, etc.

Speaker 1: 1:01:52

Which, on the way, is not the easiest, yeah, but that's the problem.

Speaker 2: 1:01:55

We are at the beginning. That's what I was saying before. I imagine that the landscape will change a lot in the future and I imagine and I hope it could be an utopia. But I'd love to stop in the highway and there would be lettuce production or fish production, organic production, aquaponics system and there would be grass-fed fresh meat or jerky and a whole filiera, how you say, a whole food system.

Speaker 1: 1:02:27

Chain, yeah, chain. Value web web. Otherwise we get emails.

Speaker 2: 1:02:29

I I do realize value chain comes from, okay, slavery period value web but let's say, yeah, it's a um, and I try to avoid it, but still a whole system of food production that is in if we arrive that infiltrates in every single kingdom.

Speaker 1: 1:02:50

It feels like the last, like if we get the density of food and that kind of food into the autogrill, into the gas stations, we actually are putting chargers now, which is great, but if we get that kind of food in there, it feels like we made it. I think that's sort of the the, because that's the furthest away. They're getting better coffee. I had to notice, like last time, they're getting much better coffee. Um, but yeah, the food side of things is still you get more nuts and dried fruits. You can see slowly starting, but it starts, it's starting starting, starting, starting in a few years.

Speaker 1: 1:03:24

Would be nice to see some exams. I know there's one in the Netherlands that's known to be an amazing food place and people take a detour To go there and take petrol and then to eat, because it's one of the few places where you can eat properly. They have an amazing food shop as well All local staff. You can buy amazing things, among them Our friends with soy sauce, but it's the only place that's known in the Netherlands To be a stop like a proper stop. It's the beginning.

Speaker 2: 1:03:50

I mean, we are still the industrial society of the 70s, I think, which is trying little by little to change the habits. It's not about technology, it's not about opportunities, it's about mindset. I starve when I go around to consultancy and courses. I starve when I go around to consultancy and courses and so on. I starve for quality, really starve. I'm lucky, because normally it's just the trip. So either I prepare food before or if I have to stop, it's just to realize what is out there.

Speaker 1: 1:04:25

It's research, it's research yeah, but you were saying sorry, there it's research, it's research. Yeah, somehow you were saying sorry that it's difficult, like have you changed something on, based on observation over the last months or year, in terms of your, your personal diet? Have you made a job? I mean, you're always making adjustments, but something big like oh, I didn't, like a year ago I wouldn't have, um, wouldn't have done that, it would have done a difference.

Speaker 2: 1:04:47

It's a very long time that I'm conscious about food for sure.

Speaker 2: 1:04:52

The good thing which seems not to be connected, but it's extremely connected that by reinforcing and creating the ecosystem social, the social ecosystem here in Iside, this allows us to have people that now are in the farm that has same responsibilities than me and Paola have.

Speaker 2: 1:05:16

And the good thing that some of these people have more time or they are keen in producing fermented food Sabrina, producing beautiful stuff with coagulant in these days. There was the period of dried meat that we started to produce. So you know, you need a sort of old-style kitchen where, of course, there can be men and women, not just the woman, as it was in the past, but people that love the food. And because you have so many people, what if one person cook can cook for for many people, can prepare the fermented food for many people, and this is relieving. Is is beautiful, because if I'm doing a consultancy, I can't be at home preparing fermented food. We are still slaves of the capitalistic system, where we have to work to produce money in order to invest and to exist in this society, in order to have an impact, because we could close straight away the gates of our farm and live our egoistic, beautiful ideal life, until they will decide to have a highway.

Speaker 1: 1:06:25

So you're not a slave until they decide to move the highway. But you're not a slave of the capitalistic system. You're not doing the consultancy necessarily for the money. Of course you want to invest here as well, but also to have an impact outside this little piece of paradise.

Speaker 2: 1:06:39

Yeah, because otherwise really I could farm my egoism. I could farm my portion of You're giving me the title of this interview Farming egoism.

Speaker 1: 1:06:52

How not to farm my egoism or farming collectivism.

Speaker 2: 1:06:58

So yeah, the ideal world.

Speaker 2: 1:07:00

there is a clear idea that it should be the base of the ideal world, but from there there could be so many amazing stratifications in all the directions of diversification and potentiation of the fundamentals. The problem is that we are too adaptive as human species and we don't realize that we adapt to this functional ugliness, and this is bad, because we train our kids to be more and more adaptive to dysfunctional ugliness. And so it's important to work on the basis of regenerating functional beauty, because we have to train our kids, we have to train the future generations to be better architects, to be better farmers, better doctors, better nutritionists, better everything.

Speaker 1: 1:07:57

And what's the role of beauty in that? Because if we're trained to be okay, let's say with ugliness, I have seen the reaction of people coming here on the farm multiple times, many times, and they just, in many cases, couldn't even imagine a farm could look like this, like. What is the role of beauty in this transition?

Speaker 2: 1:08:21

I will really always keep together. The function of beauty is when you don't plan for beauty, you plan for functions, and if the elements that you put together and the process it makes sense, not just for you, not just for humans and your collective uh, yeah, the people that surrounds you um, and if it also produces ecological services, then you look at it and you start to feel, oh, but it's also beautiful. And it's beautiful because, yeah, it's beautiful, because it makes sense. It's not pure aesthetics, it's the beauty of processes, because if someone comes here and look at these eucalyptuses in between the fig trees, yeah, with a sea of pumpkins at the bottom, they can look at it from a heistetic point of view and they can say, yeah, I would rather to have an English turf, or less wild or more wild.

Speaker 2: 1:09:26

Everybody has got his own idea of beauty. But if I start to speak about all the functions that these elements manifest in this small and simple system, then there is where the wonder and the beauty that the beauty is not something that you see just with your eyes. It's something that you perceive with all the senses. It's when you try something that is very good and maybe is very good because another crop or another species or another element of the system helped that crop to produce a better yield, or once you see that from one action you can have medicine further for the animals, you can have erosion control, you can protect the trees from excess sunlight or hail or storms, and so on. For me, beauty is not just about what eyes can see, but all the senses and also what lights, intuition and and perception.

Speaker 1: 1:10:35

so let's do that with this and let's try to do the audio. We see a number of fig trees, about two and a half three meters high not super high, not super low yeah, and, as you say, a sea, as you said, a sea of pumpkins underneath with these big green leaves that most people know. And then what else do you see when you look at this, when you look at this tiny part of this much bigger system?

Speaker 2: 1:11:04

I see that all the above levels, the trees that are growing above the pumpkins. They're protecting the pumpkins from excess sun and heat. The pumpkins is collecting water, with these beautiful roofs that are the leaves, and protecting the soil from evaporation. And then we have fig trees, which are amazing trees because they don't need really treatments. They concentrate the summer sunlight in one of the most amazing fruits that you can find on Earth, from my point of view, because you can dry it and to have the base to create superfoods, superfoods together with dried seeds and so on. The prunings of the figs can be given to the sheep in order to cycle and have a faster and more dynamic nutrient cycle. And then, above and in between the fig trees, we're experimenting with cold-resistant varieties, hard varieties of eucalyptuses, a couple of them. They're the ones that are working.

Speaker 1: 1:12:18

Doing really well. Yeah, they're doing really well. Covered in butterflies, by the way.

Speaker 2: 1:12:22

So I see a lot of butterflies landing on the figs, but doing really?

Speaker 2: 1:12:26

well meaning, how many meters are they and how old are they they are four years old and they are, I think, eight meters high, something like that. So they grew a lot. They could grow more because we kept them a couple of years in pots and they didn't really like that, but anyway, they manage. If they manage this way, it means that when we'll grow them properly, they will do even better.

Speaker 2: 1:12:51

The eucalyptus is protecting the whole year round the fig trees from excess heat and cold and storms and so on. It's producing amazing medicine for us, because we produce essential oil, which is also used for animals and for to treat fruit trees and vegetables, and, hydrolyzed, which can be used again either for humans or human consumption or or plants and animals, and then super high quality woods and super fast growing woods and in the future, when the trees will be a little bit bigger, we'll have a flower that it will be the missing flower in this ecosystem in terms of abundance and chemical characteristic. The nectar of the eucalyptus tree is amazing for bees and so, yeah, now I've explained just few parts of and the process, which is not even a system, it's a process and it makes a lot of sense, a lot of production and it's beautiful.

Speaker 1: 1:14:03

So, and it's just the beginning, Because if we look at this in a couple of years, what do you see? Of course, the trees are higher. There will be more, Some more eucalyptus the ones you see now that are functioning well. In this context, Would you be doing more underneath as well? What is your idea? Or is it actually?

Speaker 2: 1:14:24

the pumpkin covers it or is it actually the pumpkin covers it? No, there will be a rotation of the pumpkins with plants that can have similar functions. We planted the missing eucalypts because we started with five different species of eucalypts, but just let's say, two of them are working properly, so we changed the, the ones that died and, and so now we know which species we can use. We needed six years in order to understand which are the the proper species for everybody listening.

Speaker 1: 1:15:04

That's the research and development that these pioneering regenerative focused farmers have to do just to simply because there are no recipes simply figure out what works here, what, what likes to grow in what form and shape and what doesn't. And in this case it turns out four of the six, at least in this context, not really um, which means you have to adjust, but that means it takes another couple of years before the rest is growing, which is fine. But these are processes that take time, energy, money and there's a lot of sweat and tears to figure out what actually likes to grow next to a fig that was already there of course, but that's, that's fine.

Speaker 2: 1:15:43

Yeah, it's very much connected to the idea of having, on the landscape, in every single watershed or bioregion, pilot farms. It's not just about farming, it's pilot projects. Yeah, landscape management, which is the social landscape, is the economical landscape, is the regeneration landscape, is farming landscape and so on, is the regeneration landscape, is farming landscape and so on, and where it would be good to have funds from this part of the taxes that people pay in that watershed, because if those projects work properly, it means that the people will be eating, will ensure a yield from the farms of the area and then increasing the quality of food, increasing the quantity of food, increasing the ecosystem services make a better microclimate of the area, reducing floods, reducing erosion, desertification and everything. But we need to concentrate the energies in projects that can use resources and money in the most efficient way, rather than dispersing energy and money in many, many projects which don't have the background to deal with complexity, or they are from experience or timing or just the structure of certain farms. It doesn't allow the farm to experiment.

Speaker 1: 1:17:18

It's interesting. You bring up the notion of concentrating resources, which could be money, time, energy etc. Like, concentrate as much as possible and from there spreading Instead of spreading too thin. It's been coming back in multiple interviews. Of course, when we talk about syntropic agroforestry, when we talk about other things like how to not spread it out too thin, like a small layer of compost everywhere, and then hope for the best. No, concentrate, see what works and from there disperse. Because now, concentrate, see what works and from there disperse, because otherwise, like, everything seems so degraded that a thin layer of compost or a thin layer of biochar or a thin layer of whatever, um, it's just not not going to be enough to kick start a system into into a next, a next phase. And you, in a slightly different context when mentioned exactly the same, concentrate those resources on one farm doesn't have to be enormous or one landscape. Show what's possible, to the limit of how far can you push, and from there it will, in different forms and shapes, spread through the watershed, because that's how nature works Exactly.

Speaker 2: 1:18:20

I mean the idea if someone wanted to give us a few millions of euros.

Speaker 1: 1:18:26

You remember I asked the question many years ago what would you do with a billion euros? And you said exactly the same. I usually don't remember all the dates of interviews, but I do remember us doing our first interview, which of course I will link below, and we've done another one with Dimitri, here on the farm, actually two and a half years ago, the host or the co-host of the Regenta Vagra Forestry podcast. But in the first interview I always ask what would you do with a billion euros? And that's what you said. Now it's even more clear.

Speaker 2: 1:18:52

A few million, now a few million. I need multiple millions. Actually, I'd love to own a strip, let's say, of these 200 meters that we already own. Yeah, we're looking up the hill with the back to the lake and you're pointing 200, looking up the hill with the back to the lake.

Speaker 1: 1:19:08

You're pointing 200 meters, 200 meters up the mountain.

Speaker 2: 1:19:11

And I'd love to start from the crest of the mountain and to reach the lake with the whole property Continuous. In order to implement all the most appropriate ecological, economical and social systems in order to create a new society, in order to create a new, the basis of the future regenerative society. And then it can spread left and right too, you have, and then you have the watershed.

Speaker 1: 1:19:42

You have the whole watershed and please, do when that happens, because I'm not even saying if I'm saying when, a good baseline on microclimate, on what impact a continuous stretch of regeneration will have on, would be amazing, even on mental health of the people around, on, like the whole suite of things which is often what we lack, rightfully so, because you have have ten thousand other things to manage. But many of these projects lack, unfortunately, a baseline, because you have structures to build, fishes to implement, trees to plant, etc. Etc. But to see what impact because I think we'll be shocked at the the, the impact longer or like whole watershed regeneration can have, and I think with that it's also a perfect end. I hear tommy in the background starting to sing. I think that's our tune of the end of this conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:20:39

Thank you so much for being part of this experiment, thank you, thank you for the walk. We ended bare feet, which is perfect, and I'm getting hungry. I see a lot of butterflies flying about the cabbage, etc. This is teeming with life and thank you so much for this tour both through your mind and through the land.

Speaker 2: 1:20:58

Thanks.

Speaker 1: 1:21:07

Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. For the show notes and links we discussed in this episode, check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculturecom. Forward slash posts. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend or give us a rating on Apple Podcasts? That really helps. Thanks again and see you next time.