301 Yasmine Cathell on nutrient quality bio stimulants, microalgae and other random but world changing regen trivia

A check-in conversation with Yasmine Cathell in which we discuss everything from why we should focus on solutions that work for all farmers, not just regen organic, to the reduction of bio stimulants on farm or off farm, microalgae, nutrient density, and quality. Why does it all start in the soil? And we finish up with a masterclass on smelling soil and other random but world-changing regen trivia.

This is part of a series of interviews unpacking our recent video course. Yasmine was on the show the first time in spring 2023 while we covered the research she was doing back then. Now she is back for a conversation around nutrient density which is a key pillar of the video course.
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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:19

Wide ranging is an understatement of today's conversation. We discuss everything from why we should focus on solutions that work for all farmers, not just the region organic ones. The production of biosimilars, own farmer or farm, micro algae, nutrient density, quality and white all starts in the soil. And we finish up with a master class on smelling soil.

Speaker 2: 0:46

This is the investing in regenerative agriculture and food broadcasting. Investing as if the planet mattered. While we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities, and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return. Why am I focused on soil and regeneration? Because so many of the pressing issues we face today have their roots in how we treat our land, NRC, grow our food, what we eat, wear and consume. And it's time that we, as investors, big and small, and consumers, start paying much more attention to the dirt slash soil underneath our feet. To make it easy for fans to support our work, we launched our membership community, and so many of you have joined us as a member. Thank you. If our work created value for you and if you have the means and only if you have the means, consider joining us. Find out more on cambro dot com slash investing in region ag. That is cambro dot com slash investing in region ag or find the link below.

Speaker 1: 1:58

Welcome to another episode. Today, welcome back to Jasmine We had you in May last year and twenty three in the spring, and I really wanted to have you back here. We this is part of a series where we unpack the video course we released at the end of last year in twenty three. And of course, with you, we're gonna discuss a lot of things, but we're gonna also discuss nutrient density, nutrient quality, and unpacking the piece. I'm so happy to have you back. We covered a lot of the research we were doing last time and very happy to have you back now to join us more for a conversation around Nutrien density quality and one of these, which is really one of the key pillars of our video course and of course of many episodes we've made in the past, but we're we're gonna dig a bit deeper into that. So welcome back. And thank you for joining us again.

Speaker 3: 2:46

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be back. I really enjoyed our last conversation. It's also nice to Yeah. I get to expand on that a bit more. I feel like we just touched the surface of a lot of different topics.

Speaker 1: 2:58

Yeah. Last time we we managed to record in person and and this time, we will do it virtually. Yeah. But with video, I mean, we're not recording the video, but it helps with the conversation. So it's almost as good as as in person. And Yes. Just to because these kind of conversations are also really nice as a sort of feeder to see what's happening in this space. You've been in the regeneration space for a while. And so I'm always curious what excites you, what interests you, which rabbit hole you've been falling into. And so lately, let's say, on the the nutrient quality, the nutrient density piece, what is something that really, really touched you or interested you or or got your attention because I think we should pay attention to that.

Speaker 3: 3:42

Yeah, absolutely. So I I'd say what I'm really excited about these days is the power of biology in the soil. And specifically biodiversity of biology in the soil. So the variety of microorganisms the incredible number of bacteria and kinds of bacteria that we're just still learning about. And how those interact with the fungi and then get eaten by the antibiotics. So understanding what sort of ignites the biology to get going to really be working is an area that I'm really excited about because there's so much that we are just beginning to learn. I mean, even from I know there's like this carbon tunnel vision and I am not so enabored, let's say, what's talking about carbon so much, but I thought it was absolutely fascinating. This research piece came out last year. I think it was May of twenty twenty three. That basically changed the way that we understand how carbon is locked in the soil. So they were looking at fungi, Merlyn Sheldon, who I'm a huge fan of, if you haven't read, entangled life

Speaker 1: 4:55

I'm racing it out, actually. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 4:57

Yeah. Awesome. It's mostly it's like Part of it is just footnotes of all of the studies he really goes into and describes that he mentions. But this this paper that they put out basically They didn't do new research. They used they leveraged the power of AI to look over a much larger dataset and of studies. And they discovered that fungi or the necromass of fungi. So dead soil fungi are responsible for up to a third of sequestered carbon when we're looking at carbon stocks. So the role of fungi in keeping carbon in there, we didn't even know that. And here we have these huge carbon markets that are developing, getting super complex, and they still don't fully understand how to keep carbon in the soil. So that to me, is just, yeah, an example of how much we have yet to learn, and I think how much is unfolding almost on a monthly basis, both in the soil from a diversity aspect, but I would also say from a nutrition aspect because those two are so linked. So the other area I would say is nutrient density is taken on its own Yeah. Pet is still, let's say. It's getting a lot of attention, but what does it mean? And so really defining what that means I think is important. You mentioned quality, nutritional quality. I like to also say nutritional richness, because what we're really talking about is understanding the variety of nutrients that are important, and some of those are just teeny tiny amounts, but the human body needs a teeny tiny amount in order to function properly. And we're just beginning to understand that. Both permission to human gut

Speaker 1: 6:43

To the biodiversity or the diversity in bacteria, you just mentioned

Speaker 3: 6:46

Yes. Exactly. That is mirrored by the gut microbiome and the diversity of microbes in our own stomachs that we are just beginning to understand and they're the signaling also from those microbes to our brain, to hormones, to how that affects our mood and emotions, Again, we're just beginning to understand, but there's definitely a link between those communities, let's say, of bacteria, and then the soil bacteria communities. So

Speaker 1: 7:13

And how does it feel to be like and I will leave the paper below. You mentioned, like, two kids who was a girl that was under

Speaker 3: 7:20

the shelter.

Speaker 1: 7:21

I'm I'm reading entangled life and and, like, that whole new, like, in a space where suddenly a paper and is a meta one, but just changes our thinking completely because we knew but didn't really know that carbon was stored by see them that quick click. It's suddenly out of nowhere where we our world is being put upside down. How does it feel for someone working in this phase? And and to be in that that it could constantly shift, like, in the biology space, in the soil, the biology space, in our gut. But, like, every day, paper could come out and and or research is being published that that could shift that completely or suddenly. We discover a whole new set of bacteria. Like, how how does it feel to be in that in that explosion phase or sort of of a second

Speaker 3: 8:05

class phase. That's a really good question. I would say because I'm more of a self taught and less of a traditional academic type of scientist it doesn't scare me at all. It doesn't concern me at all. I think uprooting sixty years' worth of science. Scientific papers, let's say with new findings is beyond exciting. Because instead of being like, oh my gosh, it means everything we thought we knew we didn't know. It's like, yeah, but how much potential is there to be uncovered? We have these looming challenges with climate change. We have these major issues with, you know, availability of fertilizers on a large scale the cost. The cost Yeah. The huge cost and, you know, people are going, how are we gonna how are we gonna feed the world? Well, Actually, we may discover with some of these new exciting things that are coming out that the way that we've been farming for the last seventy five years is sort of like a Neanderthal version. And there's a whole new world to be discovered of working with the biology, working with natural systems. So I find it incredibly exciting. You need to be Yeah. I would say coming from a mindset of embracing this uncertainty and looking at it as Yeah. The next great discoveries, I would say, for for mankind. I think that we're just beginning to see some of those. So that I get really excited.

Speaker 1: 9:45

And what have you changed, like, your your mind about or your opinion or your beliefs recently? In this space, it's so vastly changing, but something that that I don't know. He thought to be two a few months ago and and actually or maybe a year ago when we talked, like, what's something that was quite a a switch recently if you if if there's one that really comes to mind, maybe a multiple.

Speaker 3: 10:08

That's a good question. Let's see. I would say even having learned soil science from slightly different direction. I was still convinced that the physical properties of soil and the chemical properties of soil were some of the most important in determining what you could do with that soil. So if you have a, like, a a sand based soil, you're gonna have a low cation exchange capacity, your ability to hold on to nutrients and stuff, you're gonna lose a lot of stuff to to run off. I thought that sort of texture components comparing to, like, let's say, a loam, where you have a nice combination of sand silks and clay, the other three types of characteristics that are used to describe soil. I thought that that was still incredibly important in terms of understanding what your baseline is and where your starting point is in a soil and then how to regenerate that soil and build it. And I would say what has blown me away is that I think biology is more powerful than potentially both of those combined. Wow. Okay. And maybe that's a lot of your statements.

Speaker 1: 11:33

Like like, could it be I mean, what what in plain English? Are you saying I'm not saying it doesn't matter what you are on? But there's a lot more possible? Or what what do you mean by

Speaker 3: 11:43

I would say that you're not as constrained by what's possible based on your starting conditions. So, you know, because from a just physical standpoint, if you're going, okay, well, we have some waste to waste too much sand. We're not able to hold on to our new the idea of of lugging in pounds and pounds or large quantities of, let's say, more of a clay based or even having to bring in compost to physically change the structure of your soil.

Speaker 1: 12:15

Biologics.

Speaker 3: 12:17

It's hard. And you're limited, you know. And I learned the hard way in diving into starting a biochar company that logistics is not easy. Transporting this stuff is not easy. It's expensive. It's heavy. And so the idea that actually there are vast unknown worlds of biology already in that soil. A lot of them are dormant, but that have been sort of not necessarily preselected or maybe by nature, but have coevolved with those physical and chemical characteristics. To make up for those. So

Speaker 1: 12:57

How do you how do you start them or how do you Under

Speaker 3: 12:59

Well, wake them up. Yes. Exactly. Well, that's what we're figuring out. So this is this whole new world of bio stimulants and bio fertilizers. A lot of exciting work, I would say, is just understanding what's there. So you've got different companies that are doing quite well, like biomarkers, I would say, I think, nature metrics, and I think Rise Bio is another one I just recently stumbled on. But looking at the genomics, so the genetic sequencing of these different bacteria. There's something like ninety nine point nine percent of soil bacteria cannot be cultured in a laboratory.

Speaker 1: 13:43

That means

Speaker 3: 13:43

that Yeah. We can't study it. We don't understand how they interact

Speaker 1: 13:47

with each other. I can't. Because I I repeated that I think Elaine and to know as well.

Speaker 3: 13:51

That's exactly a leaning among yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:53

The discovery of so many of these bacteria has been relatively recent because we only grew a few in a lab, only a few survive when we brought soil to the lab. So our view was limited to, only of you. I've been looking at that, but why is that why do so few survive outside of soil?

Speaker 3: 14:08

Yeah. Great question. I would say it's because they are so sensitive to changes in their environment. So you're taking them from a very specific, let's say, temperature, moisture, and light situation. And just by moving them, you are you are you're opening up their world to oxygen. Right? So you're gonna be kickstarting certain. You're gonna change the conditions that some of those back Bacteria. They will cannibalize on the others. They're gonna take advantage of that, which is why when you chill, you're you're creating you're either you could say, killing or creating a situation where a different type of bacteria can eat maybe your beneficial ones. And it's immediately changed. So that's where we've been seeing a lot of push, I would say, to create in situ sensors, and that means putting sensors into the soil that can measure in place. The problem is that and I, you know, please, if you know of some, I know people are trying to work on them, but I haven't found any Institute sensors with a real ability to look at the biology. Basics, yeah, but we're just not there yet. I mean, if we can't look at the biology in the most expensive. You pick any any laboratory in the world and still you're not gonna be able to look at ninety nine point nine percent if we haven't been able to mimic the conditions of the soil in a lab to be able to study it. Our ability and our just rates of innovation and let's say ability to spend on that type of innovation isn't there yet to understand what's going on in the soil. I would say that's Sure. Sure. Sure.

Speaker 1: 15:48

Yeah. So Eden Yeah. Insight or recreate it in the lab, which, of course, is super difficult if you don't understand.

Speaker 3: 15:54

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:55

Ninety nine point nine percent of it clear. How do you well, how do you recreate that? But it also creates enormous opportunity in scratching the surface and a feeling like we're really at the beginning of any stimuli because how do you know if you stimulate stimulating something, if you don't know, it's there. To begin with, like, how do you know

Speaker 3: 16:13

Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 1: 16:14

See the results. You can see more favored plans, you can there's, but that's multiple steps away from from the the actual act

Speaker 3: 16:25

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:25

Doing something. So that's that's the tricky part, but very exciting. And I see more people getting, like, do you see that space, the bio stimulant space or in general, this biology space, because I think whenever sector takes off or a theme takes off. It's because there are a lot of people really going deep in it, following in the rabbit hole, starting to build things maybe technology, maybe models, maybe labs, maybe stimulants, etcetera, but DC and influx of of talent into this specific theme within, let's say, regeneration.

Speaker 3: 17:25

Yeah, I would say so. I would say on a number of different levels, so you have a lot of very interesting bio stimulant and bio fertilizer companies coming out a lot of startups coming up. What we're seeing is different approaches because there are standard ones that have a set of microbes that we know to be beneficial, and so they'll sell them across the an entire market space, but not necessarily specific to context. So the type of soil, the type of environmental conditions, temperature, water, and all of that sunlight. And then you have others who, instead of having one set product, they're coming in, they're doing an assessment of the farm of that context They're trying to take the native species and then sort of incubate those, grow more of the beneficial ones, and then put them back in. And that's very labor intensive. That takes a lot of time. You need a large, very large facility. I mean, there's a bio fertilizer lab on the soil heroes farm. Yaron has been working on that with Mike, the farm manager for a few years now. They've done amazing work. And I think that that's a huge part of their success in their regenerative approach. But not everyone can do that. I mean, that's a three sixty hector farm. And so they had spaced, and I mean, they brought Mike in specifically also in the wintertime he's brewing. He's making these bio fertilizers. Yeah. And that's not something every farmer can do. So

Speaker 1: 18:57

You see a future where everybody like, what's because one of the issues I think with biosimilars or with the whole notion, partly biochar and other things as well, is that sort of it stayed in the realm of do it yourself, every farmer should do it, could do it, look look online, and then you'll be fine. That that rhymes. But And it's just that the reality is it doesn't happen necessarily because not every farmer has the capacity, the resources, the space, that this is due to that and the time. And but at the same time, we know that doing it on your farm in your context, in many cases, is much better because it is more it travels difficult. Like, it's difficult to travel for not only because of weight, but also because of applicability and context. Like, how do you see that dense between on farm and near farm or far away farm in terms of inputs and biosimilars?

Speaker 3: 19:46

Yeah, so I think that that's going to change drastically specifically. And this is another area where I've also had my own sort of aha of, well, wait a second. Maybe there's another way of looking at this instead of our typical sort of, let's apply the same way of doing something, but in a different slightly different way and hope for a different result. So instead of coming in and saying we're gonna replace those missing microbes, which by the way, we don't fully know how many there were to begin with, how they interact with each other, or if these are really the ones that are missing or just the ones we think are missing. It's like, okay, let's take a step back. What do those microbes need? In order to flourish naturally. Will they need food? Right? They need route exits. They need these sugars and yeah, different molecules and stuff. So what about just feeding the ones that are already there? So that's another idea of Okay? We can instead of having to lug huge quantities of stuff, we can look at what stimulates these guys to grow. And then you're creating a natural real environment where if you feed the good ones or if you create a situation where the beneficials

Speaker 1: 20:58

good ones are good. That's that. We were a good ones.

Speaker 3: 21:01

Yeah. Exactly. But if we can figure that out or if we can create a situation where it's more beneficial for the ones that are helping the plants to have a leg up. So looking at how to solve looking at the problem differently and then figuring out how to solve it differently. So for me, I just discovered I'm probably way late to the game, but micro algae. As I don't know that it would be necessarily a bio stimulant so much as a soil amendment, but you only need teeny tiny quantities of it to get incredible results. And that's because it's such it's like a five micron size, so it's super small. So it can also act as a carrier. So it'll carry different back area or even different nutrients into the root zone, inside the plant. And so that to me was like, whoa, wait a second. And then I discovered that They also work at night. So at night, they're converting carbon. So during the day to feed the photosynthetic process, And so, like, whoa, whoa, wait a second. So I was always thinking plants just have the daytime sunlight to grow. But if we can figure out who's active at night in the soil from a bacteria and fungi standpoint and then encourage those. We're doubling the amount of time that we have to help get nutrients it's unlocked from those organic non plant available forms in the soil, unlocked into plant available forms. And that to me, I'm just is like the potential there I think is incredible. I really think that's sort of gonna be the next step is figuring out how to unlock these things. Also, there's an incredible webinar. Hold on. It's Done by green cover. They do cover crops. It's Christine something, but she talks about the biodiversity in the soil, and she discusses chemical signaling and the socioobioam. How there's actually like a social concept.

Speaker 1: 23:04

I will put a link below. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 23:05

What was your last name again, Christine?

Speaker 2: 23:07

Jones, I think.

Speaker 3: 23:08

Jones. Yes. Exactly. And that's understanding how they communicate. So first, recognizing that the bacteria communicate with each other. That in and of itself is a novel concept, I I would say. For myself. But that just kind of blew my mind and opened things up to a different level of, okay, instead of taking this paradigm of the ancients, let's lug all of these fertilizers in to, okay, let's lug all of these bio fertilizers or bio stimulants in. Wait a second. Take a step back. What's already in the soil? And what are, you know, almost from a systems change? What are the little levers? Where are the nodes? Where can we just put a little bit of leverage to have more maximum results. And that means looking at biology in a different way and understanding biology and things like chemical sense chemical signaling, quorum sensing, and, yeah, how do they talk to each other on a basic level? And how do they have friends, you know, from indigenous wisdom or ancient farming concepts and practices, they would use different types of words than modern agriculture does of certain plants or friends with other plants. Or their enemies, they don't like each other. But I think that there's more to that than just the on its face. I think there's a lot to understand that there are symbiotic relationships amongst these thousands and thousands of different strains of bacteria and fungi. And, yeah, it's gonna be exciting to find out whose friends with who, who under different circumstances or enemies, maybe certain crops, create more competition amongst what we would think we're teammates. And so I think the way that we think about it is gonna change. And, yeah, I'm just really excited for for every new sort of research paper that's coming out or studies.

Speaker 1: 25:11

Yeah. And then how do you see it going from exciting papers to, like, scale on the graphic? If it's constantly changing, it's also very difficult to pick a thing and say, okay, we're gonna build an advisory company around this or an input company or advisory because if we keep researching until indefinitely, then we also never we never hit the hectares. Let's say we need to hit Saudi. You see that already with the companies you follow and and the interest, like, how do you see this going into practice? What what are the roots to to build a company at some point around it and and, of course, for the investors listening to this to you to put money to work at some point.

Speaker 3: 25:54

Yeah. Absolutely. I would say be identifying those companies that that get it, that see how something could scale. Again, I think the micro LG is one example because you need such small amounts of it.

Speaker 1: 26:12

What would be a question to ask, like, to a company, like, a a company that gets it is is quite a No. Let's take, like, how do you either okay. What?

Speaker 3: 26:21

I would want to understand what the problem is that they're solving. If it's just to replace conventional fertilizers, is that really solving the problem? I don't think so. I think that our industrial agricultural revolution, though, it was revolutionary, seventy five to a hundred years ago, now is a very old school way of doing things. So if we're just trying to replace a broken system

Speaker 1: 26:49

to replace broken ingredients or inputs.

Speaker 3: 26:51

Exactly. And replace broke with another broken ingredient. That's not the type of solution that is gonna scale or that's gonna really reframe the way that we farm, which is what I'd say the potential of biology gives us. And so I would want to understand, yeah, how they see the problem, what they're solving for. So to me, The biggest concern right now is all of this carbon farming. Do we wanna grow fruits and vegetables in order to get carbon out of the air, you know, in in ten years, we're gonna find ourselves in the same position that we're finding ourselves now where the nutritional quality of what we're eating has again been depleted or gone down because we were optimizing for the wrong thing. And I think That sounds

Speaker 1: 28:18

like if we optimize for carbon

Speaker 3: 28:20

If we optimize for carbon

Speaker 1: 28:21

Or we by definition lower the quality?

Speaker 3: 28:25

I I would say potentially lower it would result in lower quality food because we're not focusing on how to improve that quality of the nutrients in our food. And that's the problem that we're finding ourselves in now from the industrial agriculture age where we optimized We genetically modified, we created synthetic fertilizers, synthetic pesticides, fungicides to have a high yield to have uniformity and to have pretty looking produce. And what that's left us with now is incredible nutrient declines across the board. As well as perhaps equally as important is the lack of flavor and taste. Nutrients, I I'm convinced are equal to flavor, and I think that that's how humans coevolved to with the plant environment to know what to eat, things tasted good because they were nourishing for our bodies. And and so if you're not optimizing new biological growing methods in order to have a better nutrient content and a better flavor, then I don't think that that that's the future of farming. In terms of where we want to be in ten to fifteen years. So, yeah, so another Yeah. I'd say landmark research study that came out. I'm sure you saw it was on rice and wheat. And the nutrient decline in rice and wheat in India. So this came out in December and I think finally made it into some articles January, February, March of this year. And it was something like rice had declined in zinc and ironed by thirty percent and twenty percent and wheat by nineteen percent and I can't remember what the other one was. But The other thing that happened in that was there was an increase of one thousand four hundred percent of arsenic in these food crops. And these food crops had ten years prior been heralded as being saviors for feeding the world because of their ability to bring in bigger yields. And so we're poisoning ourselves because we're not optimizing for healthy food and for nutritious food. From I would say the the base standing point of what we're putting into our soil and how we understand how our soil works. And so yeah. I mean, it's you know, those are the two main commodity crops that that information has come out on. There was one article that I read where the guy kind of synthesized from the research paper of at this rate, India's ability to feed itself with these two crops is gonna be not appropriate by two thousand and forty. Like, these two crops will not provide nutritional enough nutrition for the people that are eating it by two thousand and forty. That's that's around the corner. That's not that far away. And so what other crops is that happening to? What other foods is that happening to?

Speaker 1: 31:36

You know, what does that do to the I mean, I'll put the links below of of the article. Mhmm. I will say below, I mean, in the show notes

Speaker 3: 31:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:45

On the website. But what does that do? Does it give a blow to this myth of how are you gonna feed the world with regenerative agriculture? Whatever regenerative agriculture is in that sense. First of all, the counter to it's like you're not feeding nor nurturing a population at the moment. Mhmm. And at the same time, need to have a discussion on yield. Like, do but do you feel that these kind of articles slowly at least start to that that the Pandora box of how much we've declined in Nutrien quality and adding other things to it, do you see there more attention for

Speaker 3: 32:20

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 32:21

The quality piece, like, how bad the quality cut in depending on the kropinib, but in general, like, across the board. Mhmm.

Speaker 3: 32:28

Yeah. I would say across the board, we're seeing a change in in, I would say, rhetoric because it almost feels like politics at this point. I'm not sure that it's necessarily followed up by changes in practices. But from Unilever, Nestlé, Pepsico. I mean, all these major food companies, Mars, Kraft Heinz, they're all now starting to use this concept of nutrient density. They've all also in addition to, I think, how companies hire is important, but also the departments that they create. I was watching who was hiring for regenerative agriculture people. Five yeah. In the last, let's say, three to five years, And in the last year, there's been also a shift in I wouldn't say hires for nutrition because what I've seen and what I've heard is that they're relabeling departments and now calling them, like, focus on food, bev, and nutrition. But I think at least that this is a conversation that is coming up and that companies are sort of restructuring how they how they operate internally is really important and is really Yeah. I would say significant in terms that they're taking this seriously that I think change will be coming.

Speaker 1: 33:51

And how let's let's not underestimate. I think how difficult that shift is gonna be for food companies that I'm not saying against our will, but in many cases, because of us and because of all the systems we created, created food offerings that most of the time are completely lacking nutrient quality or nutrients in general. I mean, we see the hype with ultrasound versus people ultra processed foods and because of partly because of the book and a lot of research coming out in the last decades on just not even on the quality of the ingredients, but just the the the ingredients itself that we've created to fill up foods that are as a Brazilian researchers like to call it food like substances. So the attention for that is starting to grow, and most of the food is big. Guys are selling is just food like substance, not ready food. So how do you Do do you see a path, therefore, these big companies should take that seriously, like, you have a thorough that most of what they say is just you shouldn't be eating that, and and an SLA is probably the same. And you deliver a big chunk as well. Some stuff, not so much. But there's there's a lot of it that's probably better if we don't eat it at all. And I understand they start taking this seriously, but this means like a night and day shift for most of their categories, let's say, and are they like, what do you feel and see that is complete speculation, but just that seems like a fossil fuel to renewable energy like, shift distributed renewable energy system for an energy company. Like, that that's as much as a shift as this almost.

Speaker 3: 35:26

Absolutely. So In some ways, I would say, maybe I'm an eternal optimist, maybe a bit naive, but I think that at the end of the day, every person has a body and every body needs to be nourished. And so this is something that I think is different in the sense that everyone knows someone that's died of cancer recently. Everyone knows someone that is fighting some kind of autoimmune disease that maybe wasn't as prevalent before. And so this hits home. And I would say instead It's

Speaker 1: 35:58

a different than five to ten years ago. Like, is is there a moment now?

Speaker 3: 36:01

There is because I think the science is finally coming out and and without a doubt showing us that there are negative consequences to these kinds of chemicals that have been put into our foods. And you can't really deny it anymore. I mean, the EPA in the US just announced huge changes essentially acknowledging that these forever chemicals have been in our drinking water and that they are responsible for things like cancer and a number of other things. But to go back to your question in terms of the food companies, the little hope that I got was I had I read this article the other day, I think it just I just found it again. It came out March fourteenth. And the title is Nestlé shareholders. Call on food giant to reduce reliance on unhealthy products. So these are the shareholders. This is where we need to see the change coming from. This I mean, they're the ones whose profits are gonna be hurt. And they are recognizing, okay, this is not the way that we want these profits to be coming in. So I think that at the end of the day, I mean, the way that we improve soil health is through people implementing things. The way that we get these big food and ag companies to change their policies potentially giving up some of their profits is gonna be through people, through connecting people to their own health and to making decisions that are in the best interest, not just for profits, but for the health of their families, the health of the environment. And I think that Yeah. As we have more examples coming out also from the health care perspective, there's Suzanna who we know here, but then you guys also have a quote from Erin Martin. In the US with Oklahoma RX where they're giving people prescriptions for food to treat ailments that they had previously been so they're giving them just to clarify food prescriptions. So putting them on very specific diet

Speaker 1: 38:03

That's not Yeah.

Speaker 3: 38:04

It's the opposite. It's saying you need to eat these vegetables or these types of whatever greens or this kind of a diet in order to address this diabetes that you're dealing with or this or that, and the idea is to get them off of pharmaceuticals. And they're having incredible success. And they're documenting that success. And these are not just anecdotes here and there. These are teams of doctors and nurses And so I'd say seeing these stories firsthand, seeing the documentation of how food equals health and can improve health, is the way forward. And something a little random trivia that I just discovered.

Speaker 1: 38:45

That's sort of that I think that's it's gonna be the title of this conversation. Some random should be a super incredible reporter to everybody listening, but it seems random, but it's not actually some random trivia, I found it because no. That's why we interview and we have this conversation because whatever you're discovering is relevant for our audience. So please go Yeah.

Speaker 3: 39:02

So Lance Gunderson works with Reghaney, and Regen Eye Labs is the only laboratory at the moment that you can get what is called a Haney test. Done for your soil. And the Haney test is like the regenerative farmer's new best friend, I would say, but also the conventional farmer's new best friend. Because what it's trying to do is mimic as much as possible soil conditions what we were talking about earlier. To understand nutrients cycling and nutrient management in terms of understanding what needs to be added. So The previous way of looking at our soil was with really harsh chemicals. It was how do we in a laboratory breakdown to find out what all of these different elements are that are in the soil, like the nitrates, the, you know, NPK, the usually the main three soil nutrients that plants need. And they said, well, wait a second. A plant doesn't have those crazy harsh chemicals to make these types of nutrient success accessible, what is available to the biology in the soil? And so they've created I think it's like h three a, and it's supposed to emulate route exodus. To be able to see what is in a water soluble form available at the root zone for the biology to to really activate and convert those, yeah, soil based, but not yet plant available nutrients into plant available nutrients. And so the Haiti test, I think, is really incredible in terms of unlocking that potential. And we talked about yields earlier. I went down the rabbit hole last night on this concept of breaking the corn yield. And this is a concept.

Speaker 1: 40:52

Thing. Nobody seasons up because it's video, but we discussed this previously. And I didn't wanna throw up the ball. Let's see if it came came up. But, of course, you So go ahead. Another another country, yeah, that Jasmine found. Yes, it is. To complete a series.

Speaker 3: 41:07

I mean, I had heard about it. I read a headline of about a year ago, but I didn't look at it so much. And so this concept of breaking the corn yield. So there's a record for what the yield is for. I think it's a hector of corn or I guess an acre because it's based it's based in the US. And every year, they weigh and they measure and they have a test plot you know, farmers competes to see if they can break the record. Well, believe it or not, and sorry for all of these big chemical fertilizer companies, but the winner now more than once has been a regenerative farmer. And not only that, a first generation farmer. So an innovator, someone who taught himself, and he there were two. There is Hedrick I think it was Tucker Hedrick in twenty twenty two, and I think the other one was Chris Hula from Virginia. And I can't remember if it was both of them or one of them was a regenerative farmer, started off doing no till and did reach the corn broke this yield barrier and set a new record. And the key was using biologicals. They also they did bring in different fertilizers, but they used the Haney test and they used the Haney test to be able to better understand exactly what was available to the root zone, to those microbes to help aid their plants. And, yeah, they chose the best genetics that they thought would work for their area, and they talked about how getting lucky with the weather that year is important Correct. But I think that this this Haney test, this ability to look at these, yeah, the the biodiversity, if you will, in the soil, is gonna be really critical to unlocking more solutions for biology at the root zone that then translates into food that has more variety of nutrients, not just to focus on, you know, tunnel vision of just NPK. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:13

But it shows this I mean, we we Sam I mentioned it before, but now even more like this yield focus and this constant argument you see on LinkedIn other places. And and we get all the time as well and never speaker, but how we're gonna feed the world. And apart from the fact that we're not necessarily now if we look at zinc and magnesium in in iron or in an iron, actually, in rice and grain in in India. Let's say in the website. Actually, if you do it well and you get extremely lucky and all of it, but it's not doesn't mean by definition, sustainable or regenerative is less, less you and less. It's now the most the most exciting farmers, we know, are actually more productive.

Speaker 3: 44:01

Yes.

Speaker 1: 44:02

And without all the inputs or with way

Speaker 2: 44:04

less inputs in the process.

Speaker 3: 44:05

Less inputs.

Speaker 1: 44:06

That's the cutting edge. It's the two

Speaker 3: 44:07

of them together. Not like,

Speaker 1: 44:08

oh, we have to do lessons, isn't it? No. Actually, we're scratching the surface. Yep. And that's where we should focus our attention to people that are combining the two. Stream productivity Mhmm. And a focus on soil regeneration and any tests and and all of that. And but at that, notion is still, I find it very difficult to get in and out of of many people like, okay, it's the wizard or the prophet or it's this or that. No. Actually, The interesting things are happening when people are pushing for crazy yields and do a lot of of deep soil stuff. But it's yeah, difficult message. I'll put the link below of the the the corn record of hectic and and just do but we have to I feel like we have to keep repeating that. Do you Yeah.

Speaker 3: 44:49

We do. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've read about it like a year ago and then I forgot about it and that's why when I rediscovered it, I I was like, wait a second. How come no one is repeating this anywhere? How come we keep hearing the same message from the big fertilizer companies of, well, you can't feed the world. How are you gonna feed the world with, you know, but we don't see enough sort of spotlight put on those regenerative farmers or those maybe they're not a hundred percent regenerative, but they're beginning to work more with natural systems and are getting better results moving away from these synthetic chemical inputs. And the fewer and fewer synthetic fertilizers that you can use at least for the foods that I'm eating, I would say the better, you know. I think there's also polarization in the dialogue, and that's a big problem too. We have this sort of like regenerative organic is the gold standard. And if you're not doing all of these things, then you're just another conventional. Farmer. And I think that that's really harmful also from an investment standpoint because you're then looking at okay, but the the number of organ organic farms is about like one percent or something like that of all farms. The number of regenerative organic is is even tinier. But then if you say, okay, well, the number of regenerative is growing, it's still a very small percentage of farms. And I would argue that Every farmer, regardless of what they call themselves, wants to produce healthy tasty food. They would love to produce something that their kids are excited to eat. You know, and I think kids are one of the best litmus tests for if you don't have a fancy lab for quality of, did the kids want to eat this without adding all kinds of sugar, condiments, or flavors,

Speaker 1: 46:42

or do you want to eat more of it? I think Yeah. One of the goals of Yaron.

Speaker 3: 46:46

Yes.

Speaker 1: 46:46

Like a potato that people order more, that his children would say I want another one. Yeah. And of course, many people many farmers, unfortunately, don't grow food for their kids because they grow feed and and ingredients for ethanol and other weird ingredients. Not because that's not, again, not shaving, but I think the inherent reason you're in that space is to grow food for people, your children, and your community. And

Speaker 3: 47:11

Yeah. We But at the same time, we need You make me remember, we need to recognize that these are businesses for these farmers. And they need to be able to put food on the table for their families. And the profit margins are so slim, and they're getting so much pressure to protects the environment and change their practices, and not enough support financially to make those changes. Because we're not seeing increases in premium pricing for those products. We're seeing come companies that wanna claim net zero and claim their carbon sequestration, but not really translating that into dollar signs for the farmer. So farmer at the end of the day does need yields, you know, in order to to make his quotas in order to to make sure that he's hitting that profit. So I'd say this is also an exciting area for the biology in the soil. Because I have seen stories and farms where, again, they are increasing their yields beyond what they thought was possible with a chemical approach. And so, yeah, I think from for investors to get to some of your questions from earlier how I would look at this is what is a solution that doesn't just scale for regenerative, but redefines how we look at farming. And makes it accessible for all farmers, including conventional farmers to adopt, and to improve their profit margins. And I don't think that that's a pie in the sky dream. I think that that is very much the the promise of biology. Soil biology. And within reach, I would say, in the next five to seven years, we're gonna be seeing just huge changes in how we approach farming in general. Yeah. But I don't have a crystal ball, but that's where my sense

Speaker 1: 49:09

Coming back to those, but then your premiums are how to get more money to the farm, of course, one of those is to make sure less money goes off, which are inputs, which are costs, etcetera. But another one is is potential premium. They're not saying they are there. Do you feel coming back to the Nutrien quality or the quality discussion in general. Are you excited, pessimistic about the opportunity there to bring more cash to the land. Mhmm.

Speaker 3: 49:39

I'm hesitant to get excited on that. I have more faith in natural systems and biology than I do in people and people wanting in particular the greed of people. And I think that that's what our sort of capitalist system is set up as at the moment of in order to give farmers those premiums or potentially more, let's say, trickle down of what that final dollar amount is selling a more nutritious product to the consumer, that means that the value chain that's in between there, someone else has got to hand it down. And I don't have as much faith in the companies that are in place right now. I think we're seeing a good move in companies wanting to have you know, be a b corp or have a triple bottom line, people, planets, and prophets. But putting that into practice and actually handing some of those funds back down to the farmer is isn't as easy. And I think that's why we're seeing all of these farmer riots all across Europe and the UK. And Yeah. So I'm not so optimistic for the returns that we're gonna be getting, I think, in terms of maybe better quality getting a better price at the supermarket right away. I think that it should absolutely be translated into better profits for the farmers. But still, I think Yeah, I'm not as optimistic about our capitalist system and how it's structured. So I really believe that we need to see government regulation come in and and that's when we'll start to see more fair prices going to farmers. But yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:30

And so you see a bigger opportunity now to drastically reduce costs very soon to get Berlin and us. Kickstarting biology and and having other opportunities because it fits into the current system. And the only people that get heard our input companies and not necessarily anybody else. Or it doesn't require a huge shift. It it requires a huge shift, but not a a massive shift, let's say, in spending patterns and and consciousness and, let's say, shift priorities for people in the supermarket.

Speaker 3: 52:02

Yeah. I would say if you probably have already mentioned this, but the nutrient density alliance just put out the first white paper on nutrient density. We haven't discussed that yet. I think that is an incredible resource to show how companies are shifting. Not just how they look at nutrition, but also how they market for it, what their messaging is to consumers, how that's changing, how awareness is changing amongst consumers. But as you mentioned, I think that that fits in more with the current paradigm or the current system, let's say, of I do think that those food companies will be the ones that will keep most of those profits. Although you're seeing more and more messaging from I mean, even my sister was saying that she gets her milk in the states now, and it says that comes from a family farm. She was like, I don't know how it could there are that many family farms still in the US that that much because she's saying it's not the the the greatest brand. But if that's the messaging that's going out there and that's what's selling, that means that's what's important to consumers. So again, I think we need regulation to ensure that this isn't greenwashing, that we don't have a company that is saying, oh, this is coming from a family farm when it's In fact, yeah, mass dairy production with yeah. Precisely. But, yeah, I think the work that that went into that white paper.

Speaker 1: 53:33

Reminds me of a of a conversation. No, sir. Go ahead. I'll I'll put it below, of course, the the white paper and and shout out to Tina.

Speaker 3: 53:43

And Tina Owens. Yes. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 53:45

A while back. So you were you were saying?

Speaker 3: 53:47

No. I think that that white paper is pivotal in terms of better understanding the shift that's happening. But my concern is that the shift is gonna be not something that's felt at the farm level, and that's where I think that in order to have things at the farm gate for farmers to change their potential for profit. We would need to see a bigger system change throughout the value chain, and that is more difficult. I think.

Speaker 1: 54:23

Yeah. No. I was what I was what it reminded me of this conversation we had with Heather Berry of Good Sam, and and their packaging and and which really focuses on the farmers. So not necessarily, or this is good for soil, or this is good for, etcetera, but what they discovered is that that just like your sister mentioned, actually sells and of course, you have to back it up with real farmers. Otherwise, what are we doing? But it is something that inherently we're like, okay, just come from small farmers or small farms, so we we feel better about or there's something in our psyche that triggers that. And now it's our job to, you know, to use that in a sense and make sure it's backed up by real farmers and real money flows to the farmers. But I'd really get your central point of let's reduce massive costs on massive farms. As soon as possible because it's just wasted money. Yeah. And and it can be done relatively quickly compared to changing the minds of hundreds of thousands of consumers and millions of consumers in the supermarket. That's a tricky I mean, that that's other work to be done there. Yep. Anything else? The random trivia that you wanna share for me right now?

Speaker 3: 55:35

Hey, that's that's a good one. Let's see. Yeah. I think the other thing that maybe was unsaid with this yeah. It's understood by me, but maybe just to to make sure that it's explicit is by trusting in the biology in the soil and sort of this potential, the impact from an ecosystem standpoint and all of the other life that's involved would also be healthier. Our water systems would be cleaner. And I think that the overall impact and the spread of that impact from switching from a chemical based concept of farming to a biology based concept of farming. Doesn't just make for more nutritious and healthy food for us and bodies for those of us consuming it, but really influences the health of our environments. And I think that we are much more connected health wise to the health of our environments. I mean, you talk to someone or their studies also, of course, but yeah, someone's very stressed and they've been in the office they, like, if they have the ability to go walk through a forest and hear the sounds of the birds and the trees, there's a calming effect, and we're just beginning to also unlock that connection and how interconnected we are with our natural environment. And so I think from a human health and well-being perspective, it's not just the nutritious quantities of what's measurable in the food that we're eating. But also, yeah, our entire ecosystem and how we're a part of that ecosystem, and it's intrinsically linked. So, yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:27

And do you see studies coming out there? Like, I'm thinking of the force bathing prescriptions in Japan, and but as our natural environment, which most of us unfortunately aren't. Living in cities, a comfortable life to a certain extent, but definitely lacking nature, like a nature deficit. Yeah. Do you see exciting things coming out there as well to, like, greener cities? I I don't know if they've got to to quantify that more and, of course, That's usually Some of the complexity, but still.

Speaker 3: 57:57

Yeah. There are. So I, for the soil sommelier side, just put together project where we were looking at this as well to see what studies are out there connecting human well-being to the environment and to soil. And so I go from the smell perspective. So there's I don't know if Did we talk about this?

Speaker 1: 58:20

Excuse me. I had it here on my nose. To ask you if we haven't haven't if we didn't discover discuss it. Yeah. But now you mentioned it, so now we have to go there. What is the soil assembly?

Speaker 3: 58:30

So a soil assembly is someone who uses their connection to or their their sense of smell an observation to determine the quality of a soil, but also the concept intrinsically links our connection to soil and soil life and how we've coevolved together. And so It's a little tongue in cheek in that I think the real soil sommeliers are the the farmers however they want to define themselves regenerative, organic, but who are very much connected with their natural habitats that is on their farm. And so this concept also started from understanding how connected we are and as humans and our sense of smell and how it's coevolved with the soil. So I don't know if you're familiar with the smell after it rains. It's like a fresh earthy smell. Yeah. So it's called PetriCore. And PetriCore is made of ozone and geosamine. And geosamine is a chemical that's released by a soil microbe. In acting in my seat or a or a strap in the strap in my seat family. An strap in my seat family of soil microbes just some other connections is also connected to some of our very important antibiotics in the medicine world. But a human's ability to smell this bacteria, chemical that's released when this bacteria dies after it rains, is somewhere between one to one hundred parts per trillion. And to give a frame of reference, a sharp can smell blood in the water at it's like one to two parts per billion. So a human nose is better able the untrained human nose is better able to sense what a healthy soil is or healthy soil life then a shark is able to sense blood in the water. And I I like to use that to just reinforce that every single one of us has were the result of millennia of coevolution with the plants and ultimately soil bacteria around us and we have this ability. So I'll do like soil tastings where this is something that evolved from having people smell and teaspoon to then I found that if you put soil into wine glasses, people get really excited and it doesn't matter what anyone's back ground is they will happily go and smell that wine glass of soil. And I'll have five different kinds of soil and I'll ask people to rate which they think is from the regenerative farm, which is from the conventional farm, which is a degraded one And, yeah, it varies depending on the group and depending on where I am because I don't bring soil with me. I'll go out and sort of hunt it from the environment near wherever the conferences or or whatnot. But, yeah, that's sort of the background of what a soil sommelier is. And, yeah, it's really encouraging people to recognize how connected we are to nature.

Speaker 1: 1:01:42

And how and our our untrained people are able to are able to do it. Like, untrained people are

Speaker 3: 1:01:49

The untrained no You

Speaker 1: 1:01:50

said anything? You mean, smelting. I think you're not Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:01:53

Exactly. Yeah. Then no one's eating the soil. It's smelling. And yeah, so it, you know, it varies because sometimes I'll only have one healthy one and one unhealthy one and ask to tell which is which. So of course, it's a fifty fifty. But I had one where I had the five glasses and we had a contest. So we asked people to There is a number next to each one, and we asked them out of the five to guess which they thought was the regenerative one. And the winners all got some Yada Salsa from Andres from Chatskoyn to Boogur, a farmer here in Amsterdam and we were shocked because I think it was about forty people.

Speaker 1: 1:02:34

On the list to be interviewed soon.

Speaker 3: 1:02:36

Yes. Yes.

Speaker 1: 1:02:36

On the list. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:02:37

Nice. But we were shocked because out of maybe forty people that participated. It was, like, seventeen that got it right. And and there was, like, there was one that was very good soil, but it wasn't the regenerative one. So it wasn't that easy. So yeah. So taking that a step further, we just put together a yeah. We just applied for a grant to do a study with a neuroscientist in Italy. The company is Strobusto. And what they do is they measure sort of brain wave activity to environmental stimuli, specifically what we were talking about in terms of, you know, are there studies or are there people out there doing this? And I got introduced to Andrea Baricelli, the founder, at Future Food Institute. For a climate shapers boot camp, and he was giving a talk on how one of some of the tests that he had done was on honey and flavor and on olive oil. And so people were given a blind taste test and they were asked which one was the healthiest and which one sort of tasted the best? And people were choosing ones that had maybe more more sugar or more sweets or palatable But every time their brain, the unconscious part of their brain, would spike on the one that had the most polyphenols, the most terpenes, the most bioactives and was the healthiest for their body. So we've kind of forgotten this ability, but our brain hasn't. And that's because if you look at thousands and thousands and maybe millions of years of evolution, that doesn't just disappear with three or four generations of fast food and industrialization. So we still have this ability to connect with nature, to understand what is healthy, And so we yeah. We put a proposal together to to use the same brain scan EEG concept but for soil and to really try and see if we can visualize or or get information back that validates this this notion that anyone is able to smell what a healthier soil is. And if there is in fact brain activity that it helps us to identify, what is the healthy one versus the the not healthy one. So we'll have five soil samples in that study if we get the funding. But yeah. So I'm excited about that too.

Speaker 1: 1:05:09

Wow. And I think that's a perfect end too. I think we we opened another box of the amount of random, but super interesting and relevant region truly. If I feel a follow-up interview, a conversation happening at some point. And I wanna thank you so much for for coming on here again.

Speaker 3: 1:05:30

Yeah. For

Speaker 1: 1:05:31

sure. What excites you, interests you, surprises you, and what keeps you going. So thank you so much for coming on here and sharing whatever you saw fascinating in the last year and beyond.

Speaker 3: 1:05:45

Thank you. It's an absolute honor to be on here. As always, I enjoy the conversation. Thank you for Yeah. Taking the time. And for your really good and thoughtful questions, I think really also we all need to be thinking about some of these things and how they relate also to the bigger picture and to finance and how do we create solutions here. So it's a lot of Yeah. A lot of different areas, but again, thank you and Antonella for all of the work that you're doing, especially in educating all of us and sort of helping to, yeah, share this knowledge that's out there. I know I always enjoy the different people that you bring on. So again, I'm honored to be one of them. And always happy to come back. Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:06:36

That will definitely happen. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 1:06:39

Thanks. Bye.

Speaker 2: 1:06:47

Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. For the show notes and links we discussed in this episode, check out our website. Investing in regender agricultural dot com forward slash posts. If you like this episode, why not share it with a friend or give us rating on Apple Podcasts. That really helps. Thanks again and see you next time.