Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast features the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
100 Gina Pattisson on how to raise more than half a million euros during a pandemic
How can one raise capital during a global pandemic? The special guest of the 100th episode of the podcast is Gina Pattisson, founding team member of Soil Heroes. Make nature everyone’s business and get farmers paid for the ecosystem services they provide the world are the goals of Soil Heroes.
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What can we learn from a very experienced non-profit fundraiser who has joined a regenerative agriculture tech startup two years ago? During this pandemic Gina had to pivot fundraising plans completely but nevertheless was still able to raise more than half a million euros.
More about this episode on: https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/gina-pattisson.
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How to raise capital during a pandemic. What can we learn from a very experienced nonprofit fundraiser who joined a region ag tech startup two years ago and during this pandemic had to completely pivot their fundraising plans and was still able to raise more than half a million. Welcome to another episode of investors, big and small, and consumers start paying much more attention to the dirt slash soil underneath our feet. In March last year, we launched our membership community to make it easy for fans to support our work. And so many of you have joined as a member. We've launched different types of benefits, exclusive content, Q&A webinars with former guests, Ask Me Anything sessions, plus so much more to come in the future. For more information on the different tiers, benefits, and how to become a member, check gumroad.com slash investingbridgeandegg or find the link below. Thank you. So welcome to another episode today with Gina Pettersson, founding team member of Soar Heroes, making nature everyone's business and getting farmers paid for the ecosystem services they provide. Just a caveat, I'm an advisor to Soar Heroes. We've interviewed Jeroen Klompe, one of the other founders previously here, and I will definitely link that below if you want to know a lot more about the history and what Soar Heroes is building. But today with Gina, we're going to dive into something slightly different, how you're raising during this crazy year that 2020 is during a pandemic, during COVID And when you're raising money for quite an innovative and new business. So Gina, thank you so much for coming on the show today. And I'm very much looking forward to diving deep into raising during a pandemic.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:And to start with a personal question, I always love to ask because I know you don't come from the soil world. How did you end up focusing all of your attention and energy on rebuilding soils?
SPEAKER_01:There's a long answer and there's a short answer.
SPEAKER_00:I want a long one.
SPEAKER_01:So I've spent the last 20 years working in international development with a big belief that the world can function differently I've been fundraising for water projects in Tajikistan for maternal health projects in Yemen for livelihood programs in Eastern Africa and all the time looking in the eyes of the funders and saying you really are making a difference because I can hand on heart from my own personal experience actually visiting places all over the world have seen firsthand the impact that external support can bring communities who perhaps are limited in certain resources or knowledge and need help to pivot. That said, there's always that challenging question of, are you going to come back in 20 years time? And will you have solved this problem? And in the end, when I discovered, actually, the first thing I watched was Green Gold, when I discovered that, in fact, everything begins with the soil that because when you fix our soil, you fix our climate problems. When you fix our soil, you fix people's resilience of their own crops that they're growing. They can be independent. And when you fix your soils, you're actually fixing your own health because it's changing what you eat. That for me was really literally scales falling from my eyes. Having worked for environmental organizations, for development organizations, having worked for Unilever, suddenly there I was realizing why is it that for 20 years in all of this work, I haven't actually been talking about soil health. So for me, there's no going back. It's pretty clear that this is, you know, I would hope that it could be a 10 year job and then it's done. I'm not sure that's going to be the case. But certainly for me, the mission is extremely clear. I think when we address how we use our land, we address all of those other ensuing challenges.
SPEAKER_00:And do you still remember, was there like one moment you mentioned green gold, which I will link below in the show notes? which is a great documentary of John Lewis. Did you see that and then you saw it? Or did you see that documentary when you were already interested in soil? Like, was there one moment where suddenly you saw, I wouldn't say they saw the light, but or was it a gradual process where you got more interested in what's happening under our feet?
SPEAKER_01:No, I was actually approached because I live in the Netherlands. I'm from Scotland, from the UK. Very appropriate. It's St. Andrew's Day today because I'm actually from St. Andrew's. So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_00:Should I say congratulations? I don't know if so congratulations
SPEAKER_01:we don't do the Dutch thing congratulations on someone else's birthday but and so I found myself in the Netherlands I had been in global roles I was in regional roles and by that I mean traveling South Africa traveling all around Europe and with a young family in the end you realize it's a choice that either you're home and around or it's and I had spent 20 odd years of traveling and in very full all-consuming roles So I chose to look for something more locally in the Netherlands, which was a bit challenging because of my fundraising background, bringing this kind of very global horizons to the small town of Middelburg, which actually is internationally known, I've since discovered. But nevertheless, working out what can I purposefully do that is a good employment of my skills and all of my experience. And somebody shared with me, you really need to get to know this very cool team in Amsterdam that's working on land restoration take a look they're looking for somebody they need to start from scratch kind of on the more fundraising side and so that's when I stepped in and interestingly
SPEAKER_00:that was the first time you heard land restoration or was that like did it catch your eye like oh that sounds interesting or it was like oh what's that
SPEAKER_01:no I mean through the work with Oxfam and Save the Children of course there's it's big streams of programs but in terms of really understanding the nexus of some of the soil health and community thriving and how you connect that through to the food that you eat or the clothes that you buy. I think it's the soil health component for me that was really strikingly new, if you like.
SPEAKER_00:Then you ended up at Soil Heroes and how would you, I mean, in a startup there are six zillion roles to fill and the early team fills them all, but how would you describe your role if somebody asks you, okay, what do you actually do at Soil Heroes? Like right now we're talking November, December 2020. Obviously, it has been shifting. How would you describe your most of how you spent your time?
SPEAKER_01:Most of how I spend my time is talking with a wide range of who I call change makers. So internationally, people who are passionate about changing the way that we use our land have a vision for a different way of operating, whether it's from the financial world, from the food sector, whether it's farmers, of course, predominantly also investors. That said, I also speak with other organizations who are more like peers. So I guess you could describe me as a bit of the team scout, sort of having those initial conversations. I'm enormously, I have like so much gratitude for the referrals that are made to my inbox heaves under the weight sometimes, but people connecting us to other people. So I think really it's opening doors, aligning, discovering where our visions connect, and then being able to bring that meaningfully to the team in a way that we can gain traction or in some cases it's good to know that you exist and we exist super we will we're on the same journey on going and we follow each other and it doesn't always need action when you first meet with someone but it's about building the my big thing is joining the dots as you know so it's then working out which dots need to be joined and what's the best way to join them
SPEAKER_00:and if you take us back to let's say January February or maybe even March early March when you were in full swing of raising around we with Story Heroes and slowly this pandemic thing became much more serious than we all thought. I certainly underestimated it greatly at the beginning of the year. I
SPEAKER_01:remember our conversations.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But I also saw some things going out there saying this is going to be a very, very long winter, let's say for fundraising. And if you haven't closed now and stuff is in the bank, then this is because people are going to hit the brakes, going to postpone, et cetera, et cetera. So if you take us back to like, let's say February, when it started to become slowly clear that something was probably going to derail a few things. What was your thinking then about the round you were raising and if that would be even possible or was it okay, all hands on deck, let's see what we have now in and let's see how we survive until, I don't know, next winter or something. What do you remember of February last year or this year? Sorry, we're still in the same year
SPEAKER_01:actually. No, it's a good question. So coming back to your previous question, taking a step back, I've spent a lot of my time raising what you could called philanthropic funds. So I worked very much in the kind of the charity sector, the charity space. It's during that time, it was very evolving. I think, in the end, if you look at it, they're big businesses. And there are lots of challenges kind of is charity dead? Actually, is this the right kind of money? And then, as I say, I joined a land restoration organization here in the Netherlands. And whilst we needed to fundraise for grants, discovered actually, most people coming through the door were impact investors. And so for me, from myself personally this was a transition into a different kind of funding i'm not from an investment fund background and so my own kind of concerns about oh i don't know the technicalities of deals and how what do i need to learn about the financial language and and so on and discovered and i coined a phrase at the time as you will remember discovered that actually the principles are the same in the end it's about what's the purpose what's your mission what's your your intention that's what purpose means essentially what's your intention and when you talk about impact are you looking for impact that is environmental that is social for yourself for your pocket and I think having those really hard discussions and I back then was operating very much in the kind of the sweet spot between the hardcore investment and the charity which of course we call impact investing and the term that I coined as I say was the investable grant so how can we ensure that whatever kind of funding is given, that it is building towards something that is going to become investable or is going to be sustainable financially. In other words, it creates its own business model in the end. So there's a number of things in there. There's business model means profit. And let's face it, profit is and can be good. The question is, is it your main driver? And if purpose is your main driver, and this is where I love what Paul Palmer has been speaking about, particularly with the business for nature community. Actually, it's not profit for purpose. It's profit through purpose. And the reason I share this is because when COVID struck and it became clear, and I think we were extremely naive. I'm a little bit disappointed, if I'm honest, by the Western kind of hemisphere, because it first arose in China and there was a sense of it's over there. And by goodness, it really, those are words that everyone can eat because.
SPEAKER_00:The latest research in Italy shows it went around already in September last year. So it
SPEAKER_01:doesn't surprise me at all. They
SPEAKER_00:see a lot of, they froze a lot of blood samples from a other research and now they went back to see and they had antibodies in there like a good 11.6 or 12% of the people in certain cities in the north had already antibodies of COVID-19 which is very interesting for our eyes generally it was like oh it's there don't worry it's not going to travel
SPEAKER_01:and it kind of that also comes to my point which is in the end it's about perceptions and it's about realities and people talk about it started in China and actually you know good on the research there that actually identified it and was able to flag it to the world when probably it started somewhere else. And so my big rule of thumb with fundraising, and this brings me to the COVID challenge that you've asked me, is never assume. You don't make assumptions. You need to peel things back, really understand. And what it is, is what it is. And particularly in my role as a fundraiser, it's not for me to some extent challenge, yes. But in the end, if there's core values and they are different to other core value and they have very clear pathways that do not diverge, then it's a case of respecting, respectfully acknowledging that that is a path that goes in a different direction to yours. So there's some subtle work there. In terms of when COVID struck, the way I see it is what I was imagining back in February, I was pretty, pretty bold. My view was, okay, this is the moment for impact investment to really step up, because in fact, it doesn't change Because we still are not using our lands properly. We still need to change how we work, how we see farmers, how we understand the food that we put in our mouths, the clothes that we choose to wear.
SPEAKER_00:Probably makes it more important.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And we've very much seen that since. That has definitely come to be the case that there is now a sharpened understanding and appetite for going deeper into growing things better. Building back better, growing things better is what I'd say.
SPEAKER_00:And did the funders agree? that's because you can be bold but if the other part you're talking to is sort of going back down like everything risky because we've seen that with some people with other people actually not like it's really a two response some people move forward and see this as the moment and push with their portfolio with their investments etc some others are okay let's talk in 2021 because i'm not making any sudden rushes also because you saw in in march like the stock market crashing oil markets crashing some people lost a lot of money maybe it probably back in and hopefully back in the last months but it was a very scary moment on the financial market so there was a lot of like sudden tensions so what was there you felt bold what did the other people feel
SPEAKER_01:in fundraising i can't imagine why you'd be in fundraising if you're not passionate you're very passionate completely believe in what you're doing so it's relatively easy to be bold as you say at the same time it's naive to ignore what's going on around you you have to listen and i'm also very strong i was sharing with somebody the other day, why is listening not the first language that we're taught at school? It's so extremely important sometimes to actually stop and hear the noise, if not at least what's actually being said, to hear what is and understand other people's perspectives. So we were bold deliberately in order to keep going because it was very important that we didn't just kind of hit the pause button that's all heroes and say, okay, there's a pandemic, people are nervous. Let's wait. There's no time to wait. So by being bold, we kept our confidence. We kept our resilience. And at the same time, we did really lean in to understand, OK, what does this mean for the investment community that we're working with? We do need to apply a big dose of caution. We need to work with that. How can that look? And so we went from two commitments of a million euros each, almost on the verge of signing. that had to go on hold and the best thing that I think strongly believe the best thing that we did is to instead of pushing that is to immediately stand on the same side and work with those parties to see how can we reconfigure this because it's working together in the end it's not a trans you know yes okay funding goes from a to b but it's not a transaction as such it's a relationship it's a journey it's co-creating that you can have impact and really change something if you're change makers then you're doing it together so when you have a crisis that can feel very polarizing and feel quite difficult because certainly if somebody is putting pause on their investments you don't want to push at the same time if you are listening and you are working together then you find new ways through so we changed our approach and went for convertible loan for a much smaller amount and worked out that amount based on what do we need to get to our next milestone and that milestone is very simple it's completely what we're all about as soil heroes it was how do we bring new income to farmers so a million euros of extra funding to farmers who are transitioning to regenerative agriculture and it's around 4,000 hectares that would be restored and all of the beautiful things that they achieve for us by farming with nature in restoring those hectares. So we worked out that we needed around a million euros ourselves. So with a million euros, we could keep the team running, build all the extra functionalities, team members, and achieve
SPEAKER_00:that. Get the hectares on board.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, bring the farmers on board, support them in their transition, and achieve that milestone. So by going into a much smaller, so effectively, we were looking, okay, and you have to take the long term view. We need to do a short term, lean, round that keeps us nimble, keeps us able to, you know, we can keep flowing, that secures the connections and relationships that we have.
SPEAKER_00:Put some money in the pockets of farmers and show that you can do this. And then with the strong conviction that if you're able to put more than a million euros into the hands of farmers, you're able to raise more or to build this machine bigger, bolder.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Proof of concept. So by getting proof of concept, if we could, as essentially secure the team, prove that there is an appetite within companies to pay farmers, not just talk about RegenAg, because there have been some great statements made by some very significant companies, but actually then having capital flowing directly to those farmers for restoring those hectares. But with that proof of concept, we could then look at scale up funding. And actually, that's been the right thing to do, because as we, although it does feel like we're entering a long, hard winter, that said, it's kind of a bit to what you were asking earlier, what I observed is that the crisis, the corona crisis really sharpened what people were all about. So those people really driven by impact and with, who had the capacity to do so, of course, went deeper impact and said, nope, we need to stand stronger. We need to, now is the time to step up. And I think that that sharpening has been clarifying.
SPEAKER_00:So where are we now? We're at the end of November. So you mentioned these two groups, they both had a million committed, which both were put on hold. What would you say is a good snapshot of where the fundraising is now for that million to keep going and basically build the first show of product? Where do you feel you are? Because you said sharpening, does that mean there are more people involved now or more investors, more funders? What has it in the last months, basically on the fundraising side with that refocus of we're raising 2 million from two funders and then we can build a lot to, we're raising 1 million from potentially in a convertible loan from potentially a lot more people to build this first product for 4,000 hectares and 1 million to farmers. What has been the response from both those two? I'm very curious, obviously they were already committed, but then had to pause and others potentially that came on the table.
SPEAKER_01:Really striking. One has postponed for down the road and has said as soon as things are flowing again, we will look at how we'll be able to step in. And we have a beautiful letter of support recommending us as partners and stating their intention further down the line to work with us and join the Soul Heroes journey. So actually, it's a dream scenario. We have our pipeline ahead. We already have key stakeholders who are, if you like, lining up ready for the scale up round. So for the convertible loan
SPEAKER_00:which is all great obviously if you get to the scale up like you also need the money now you need some of it now you don't need all but enough to keep the fireplace going exactly otherwise yeah you never get to the scale
SPEAKER_01:yeah so you then you need to be smart and you need to be constantly listening and flexing and zooming in zooming out you know you have to move with the situation if you're just completely going to stick to your guns and be stubborn and like this is how we're going to do it then yeah then it becomes very difficult and probably won't make it so we've actually chosen to close around early. We're two-thirds of the way there, and by doing so, we already have sign-in customers for Soil Heroes, so companies already onboarding and farmers onboarding, and we're introducing them and telling beautiful stories about how they are together creating change. And by doing so, so by closing our round now, we are already changing the status of the company. We can immediately move into scale-up funding, and that has in the end it will be interesting a year down the line to see if this holds true but has done us a favor because there are a number of investors who are looking at the scale up round for soil heroes because they generally prefer to invest larger amounts and so the small convertible loan is not the most suitable for them but they're very keen to step in further down the line so in fact if you look at the flow over the period of time in fact it makes sense and it works. It's just felt like a bit of a bumpy sideways ride to get there. So I'm extremely thrilled with the support that we have from our current round of investors who already are looking ahead, thinking about once we close this, what that means for the next round. Some of them have made reservations for the next round. So this isn't a short term thing. It's, as I said earlier, it's a long journey. You're in it for the long And I think by that sharpening that we talked about, you find who really are your most aligned, your true tribe, your dedicated team around you. And I really consider that the investors I work with, they're really an extension of our team. And then, in fact, you become more efficient. You can go more direct and arguably faster because you have the right tribe around you. as a philosophical way of saying it has been a pretty tough year and we've had to flex and change but it's not been a bad thing in the end
SPEAKER_00:and you've had you've raised capital which i think for many i mean you said two-third down the line i mean we can all do the calculation you raised capital in a very challenging year for many i think everybody had a bumpy ride if you were going up or down it doesn't really matter it's been one of those years or actually not because nobody ever had a year like this at least not in let's say like you said the western world so what would you do to like if you were going into like we're in that period where we look back at the year etc if there's one thing you could do different would you do anything first of all differently or would you say i would do it exactly the same this is how it was supposed to be and if there was one thing what would you do differently
SPEAKER_01:one challenge that was brought to us as you know i'm not from an investment background and we chose to raise the three-year budget which was 6.3 million and we chose to do that up front because of the time it takes you know when you're a startup and that's also a very important point here when you're a startup who are you investing in you're investing in an idea and you're investing in the team so if you're investing in an idea and the entrepreneur you're going to need a lot of time with those people to really understand what their intentions are to know that you can trust their competence the way that they work that you're going to enjoy i mean that's the other great thing about the investors around us they're kind of really the ultimate definition of critical friends they're really sharp and and clear and challenging, and they're also very supportive and nose aligned in the same direction. So, you know, those critical friends around us have given us the, you know, have helped with the confidence. So there was some counter wind, let's say, that we were being too ambitious to raise all the money upfront. But as I say, you really want to protect the time of the entrepreneur at the same time as them being available for those investors who are essentially early stage taking a risk and you know there isn't just a product already that they can see and invest in
SPEAKER_00:yeah you're saying like you have to spend so much time anyway investor entrepreneur like let's raise as much or let's raise quite a significant sum instead of just a few hundred thousand because the time is the same and let's use that time with the entrepreneurs and the team as wisely as possible obviously making a bigger I mean if I remember correctly what's connected to milestones, it wasn't all the 6 million in one shot. So it was obviously staged, but at least you invested the time upfront with the investor. And if he or she or them said yes, then you knew, okay, we've invested this for a three-year budget and for et cetera, et cetera, which in pandemic time might be a bit more challenging.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. So I think people might expect my answer to be, well, the thing that I would change is that I wouldn't have gone for the full amount. And that instead we'd have started with more classic style of a small amount, get a basic MVP show the concept and then go back funding again and then do fundraising again that would have been three rounds of fundraising
SPEAKER_00:but that's not your answer
SPEAKER_01:no it's not I've thought long and hard about this because obviously very keen constantly I'm always learning and seeking to learn and I think being able to reflect critically on the steps so far are very important for the steps you take again you know further in the future at this kind of very delicate stage of being emerging from start off and being a going concern and no I wouldn't I don't think I would change it and the reasons are that it helped us by saying that was our ambition and it has helped us to find the right people who believe in that ambition and that's coming true because people are standing by us in spite of COVID and the movement has only grown our external network has only grown it hasn't slowed down and I believe believe that if you want to achieve big change at some point you need that big hairy goal at the start and it might not work out like that
SPEAKER_00:exactly but yeah
SPEAKER_01:but it's brought us the right people you
SPEAKER_00:put a bar you put a bar pretty high and then during pandemic as hopefully everybody were flexible what you could actually what it was actually on the table and you could take yeah
SPEAKER_01:and as a result of that after just two years as I say we also have a very healthy potential pipeline already at play. So a lot of the hard work has been done now that I think will really make things hopefully flow easier in the future. So I think it's still been the right thing to do.
SPEAKER_00:And any tips, tips is always difficult, but any advice you would give to others that are in a similar situation facing this crisis or facing another crisis? I mean, for that matter, I mean, depending where you are, you have things more regularly that we were not so used to, but what would be your main advice or or tip to other people that are fundraising in challenging circumstances, let's say?
SPEAKER_01:Number one, dialogue. Everything starts with dialogue. In the very first instance, don't be frightened to pick up the phone and have a very vulnerable, open discussion. If things are hard, it's important that you talk more and that you're really clear about where are the boundaries, what are the possibilities, how does this sit, and understanding also short-term and long-term because things might be challenging right now, now. But that doesn't change somebody's purpose. And the worst thing you can do is, for example, let's say you've said, oh, Gina, I could invest 50,000 euros in your idea. And I say, wonderful. And then you say, I'm sorry, Gina, with COVID, it's not possible. It's not going to happen. Am I then going to stop talking to you and say, oh, well, Kuhn didn't put his money in. It's not going to happen. Of course not. Because the connection that we have, the joint intention that we have, it's a very peculiar thing. But somebody once said to me, you don't look or sound like a fundraiser and I was like what not quite sure what you mean probably a good thing well I took it as a good thing and I certainly meant it as a good thing and in the end money is actually the last thing that you talk about it's critical and in the end it's the point you have to sign a deal and you need to be able to pay for the team and things need to be able to happen but it's that's never the discussion it's never around the funds themselves it's actually about what are we going to do together so my advice in a crisis is although you might be feeling really pressured about how are you going to pay the next bills and how are you going to see through to the next months or retain the talent that you have at that moment in time the most important thing you can do is rather than thinking about the funding per se is to understand who are my pillars who is my network and how do we want to approach this together I think the A very important part for me is to be totally upfront as well if you're having a tough time. Being able to, so we've actually had this, speaking with our founding funders, and we should briefly talk about that as well, because it's a beautiful example of going in for the six mil upfront. Actually, through that, we found our founding funder. And really, they are the absolute core of everything we're doing. They provide stability and gravitas and understanding, confidence and empathy, really tremendous. And the moment that you think you're going to have a hard time the best thing you can do is go back to those people and so we shared with the founding funders actually we're not going to make it to the way that we thought we would thank you for your honesty and the feedback that we had from them was you know there's two reasons the concept and the team and the third reason that they invested is they know that when times are hard they're going to know about it when we're having problems they're going to know about it and that creates a level of ability to do things in the future then you can really change things because you're being really upfront about the situation rather than putting your head in the sand or or being sunk by the enormity of the challenge so being authentic and being open and being honest and what was very lovely is they came back and explained actually you know if we could we would help you on your running rate and I actually it's never even crossed our mind to come back to you because you You've already done your job. You know, you funded a third of the budget. And we never intended this to be one set of investors coming in. And it's very important for the longevity of what we're doing and our impact to have the right people on board. And it's never just one person or
SPEAKER_00:one family. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So that's, to be honest, very simple and very plain advice. But I think you need to breathe, believe in what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00:Talk and listen.
SPEAKER_01:Talk, listen, be open, and not hold on too tight. I don't know if you know what I mean by that. But sometimes being able to let go just a little bit and be on the scary roller coaster, if you've built good foundations, you're going to come through it the right way somehow. So trust. In the end, it comes down to...
SPEAKER_00:It comes down to,
SPEAKER_01:yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's excellent advice. And I want to take that as a bridge to shift gears a bit and ask you, I mean, I know you keep saying, I don't have the investor background. I come from the philanthropic fundraising world, but you also are used to quite large amounts. I'm very interested in what if you would be an investor yourself and you would actually have the portfolio of a nice amount, let's say 1 billion to invest. What would you, I mean, I'm assuming regenerative ag and food, but you could also invest somewhere else. What would you focus on? What would be or prioritization in terms of if you had to put a billion to work?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I should check first. Are you sure it's still only a billion? Because I believe you've asked this question a few times. So maybe somewhere that amount has increased.
SPEAKER_00:I usually ask a billion, but if you want 10 as well, I'm curious about how you prioritize. Because you've worked with large amounts, let's say. So if it makes you more comfortable, I can also add a few zeros. But I'm interested, what would you invest it in, in terms of categories? What would you focus on? What do you think are the most important pieces at the moment in region ag and food? This a different way of asking the same question, obviously.
SPEAKER_01:Totally agree. It's about the prioritization rather than the amount. I don't know how we would implement it, but I would love to throw a ton of money at retraining agronomists. so that no matter for whom they work, their foundation, their basis has been in farming with nature. Because once it's in your system, it doesn't go away. Once the scales fall from your eyes, there's no going back, as I said earlier, for myself, for my own personal journey. And you see it with farmers. All farmers want to do good by their land. It's just they might not necessarily have the right tools or the right space, actually. They might even have the knowledge, but the right space. So in the first instance, I would love to, and those agronomists too, actually first spend some time with small scale holders who are already farming in very regenerative ways in say the global south where we completely turn things on their head instead of what can we bring to them we say actually what can we learn and we start to bring the world more into a central place of understanding rather than this divide of kind of where the knowledge is and how we have to transfer
SPEAKER_00:it. So bringing agronomists to the global south I think it's to basically sit down listen and learn from smaller farmers who are applying agroecology regenerative farming whatever we want to call it and think like hopefully plant a seed that they will bring back when they go to their enormous farms they're advising in australia europe the us etc and your hunch is that that seed won't go away anymore like once you've seen what's possible even if you work for the big chemical companies you will figure out ways to not work for the big chemical companies anymore and work with your farmers that actually that's supposed to be your client.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And of course, the key question is, what are the return expectations of the fund?
SPEAKER_00:That's yours to decide. Could be zero, could be partly super high, super low. I mean, you can build a portfolio.
SPEAKER_01:Well, so I would love to, I don't have the expertise myself, but there are definitely movers and shakers already.
SPEAKER_00:For this amount, you can get a team. I mean, for this amount, you can get a team in place. Don't worry.
SPEAKER_01:There are people already thinking about it. And I would say in the very first instance, the fund would not report impact based on euros returned it would report impact based on nature restored so and leave it as its own value rather than trying to translate that into monetary value
SPEAKER_00:why is that i completely agree i don't like the constant everything has to be a dollar thinking but i know a lot of people do what's you said at the beginning so at some point that changes or you want to keep it that way for as long as the fund lives
SPEAKER_01:no i think i would leave it that way and the of course key thing there is then how would you measure that um as of course goes without saying investing in an organization like soul heroes would be an obvious thing to do and being able to scale that i think as long as it can be measured then you're actually incentivizing in the right way you're not incentivizing for profit you're incentivizing for purpose and then how do you then link that to increased value in the value chain so if there was a way that we could also underwrite and I don't know how we would do this, but underwrite the profit margins, a percentage of the profit margins for companies that are prepared to account for their investment in nature in a different way and that are also willing to transform their supply chains really, like not just saying, yes, we're going to do it and we'll do pilots, but actually stop immediately with all chemicals other than the ones that farmers need in order to get their soils, off the chemicals that they're addicted to so there's a certain transition period but making in the end we need dramatic change and I just I feel like we are still working within the bounds of what we know and there are some very interesting networks and thinkers at the moment looking at financial levers for change looking at sort of agro kind of pivot points of how you can do things differently and I think if with a fund that you could literally just rewrite the rules then I would get the best team I would also find the most hardcore critical purely focused on profit investors to work also with us so that we can really understand the headwind that we're going into and be able to figure out the answers to all of their fears concerns and questions and the most obvious thing would be to have as much of that money as possible going to farmers to make the transition so for example why not invest in a kick-ass marketing team that can help farmers on how they talk about what they do because no farmers go the time to go you know even just me getting technically set up to speak to you okay a farmer are they going to have the time to go and have a professional photo shoot and learn how to tell their story and work out what they're going you know and also it's very personal and it's about yourself so that's not a very easy thing to do whereas I do believe that if we could have more visibility of farmer stories, of what the reality is of when someone walks into a shop and they pay the price of a banana, that they actually understand what it took to grow it and the faces behind the food that we are eating.
SPEAKER_00:It will be like a communication agency purely focused on telling the real story of farmers or the extensive, holistic, not long form, not just the face on the package and three lines, because there's a lot more behind that which we never know we don't know about our coffees we don't know about our potatoes we don't know about our onions we have no clue about our grain and we have no clue about our milk or animal protein etc and obviously also not about our bananas like there's the whole world unless you go out and actually spend time I think I would argue most people don't really know what it takes to grow that regeneratively or non-regeneratively like in general we don't know the challenges that's a I think there's a huge there are a lot of stories to be told there
SPEAKER_01:there are a lot of stories to be told and the question is how do stories make money well actually some of the best companies in the world they make their money in the end by telling stories and of course an example you know is always close to our heart because the first funding into the Soul Heroes Foundation Patagonia there is no way you can tell a story like Patagonia does and they say don't buy a jacket and of course for them profit wise everybody then goes and buys a jacket point being that when they tell their stories people pay attention and they listen and actually people move with they vote with their feet they will come to a company because they know they're sourcing better cotton and they are actually treating all their employees fairly and they're building the communities around where that cotton is grown and ensuring its full access to all of society. So I think discrimination within, there's not much talk is starting, but the discrimination that occurs even within the food supply chain, I think if there's a way of addressing that, how do you then relate that back to profit? Well, in the end, if it means that far Farmers are going to build the resilience of their soils and therefore they don't need to irrigate as much. And we've seen it with the Klomper farm, the difference that it makes. Once you're really farming with nature, your inputs go down. Farmers are going to be more viable, which means their children are not going to leave the countryside as quickly. They may be more likely to take on those farms.
SPEAKER_00:Or they come back. They come
SPEAKER_01:back.
SPEAKER_00:We've seen those examples. I mean, people keep asking like, is it more profitable? And I think if you dig down, it definitely can be, or quality of life is much better or both, but they're definitely not less profitable. I think that's the general, it really depends where you are in your transition, but there are some very successful examples, small, large on any continent that have made or are in the middle of a transition and are seeing huge payoffs in all impacts they can imagine from biodiversity to yield to family time, quality time, et cetera.
SPEAKER_01:And if you can measure that in a really holistic way so impact meaning not just impact on soil health and impact financially but impact on the experience of people working on the farm impact on the family as you say i think impact really through all of the different lenses
SPEAKER_00:i think we heard it a number of times like it's fun again but how are you going to measure it it never comes back in the impact report but i've heard many farmers say this is actually it's fun again like this is inventing things this is figuring out what works on my on our land this is Going back in old history books and see what they did before, combining that with the new tech, figuring out new tech, buying the latest drones. Like this is fun again compared to many times conventional farming is a lot of stress and not very fun.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's putting the joy back in farming and also being proud. And I think the community component is very underestimated. You know, the psychological aspect, okay, farming is naturally a lonely experience and perhaps may not always be the most extrovert experience. wanting to connect with everybody but to know that people are admiring and loving what you're doing and to know that you can see other people who are doing the same and not feel like you're so strange in the way that you've got this very messy looking field you have to have it behind the farm only and on the front side I remember stories of farmers in Western Australia who'd been busy with permaculture for a long time and at the front they had their bland monocrop fields and behind their houses they had all these beautiful very diverse
SPEAKER_00:I don't know it's something we underestimate very easily because if you live in a relatively small town with a strict social not control but it's very difficult to be different and if you have messy fields many people look at that and look at you weirdly and we've heard stories from people switching to organic in the US and their children were no longer invited for soccer practice or were no longer picked for the team and that was for organic it wasn't even the messy regenerative transition some people go through or SLM I keep telling that story. When they started in Australia, they were called stupid land management because the neighbors were all looking at them like, oh, this is going to fail for sure. And luckily they came from the outside. And of course they, and they proved a lot of things, but the first years their operators and their, their farmers were looked upon really, really weirdly. And so it's huge pressure thing, which is interesting and something we need to, the story piece is crucial there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. And so, and then just closing off on the fund, I think the business model then being a you know I've learned a lot of this through of course working with the Klompas in the end if you're then improving by improving soil health whichever way you do it because there's so many different means as I say you know whether it's encouraging the farmer to be able to share their story and therefore they are encouraged and they're incentivized whether it's through being rewarded for the I don't like the word ecosystem services the greatness that it gives us from nature when you put nature back into the field Let's put it that way. Whether it's paying them for that or whether it's retraining the agronomist, regardless, their asset, their farmland, their home, their business is going to increase in value because there is more resilience and it will, in the end, be growing more reliably and better crops than degraded land. And if there's a way that we can measure that, then I think you can start to talk about how you give your your reward back to the fund so it's not my area of expertise but i would definitely come with the
SPEAKER_00:that's why i asked the question because otherwise it would be very boring
SPEAKER_01:yeah i'd get a really expert person to work with my crazy ideas and where i'm very focused on mission and purpose
SPEAKER_00:that's how many funds start don't worry let's say yeah and as a final question because i want to be conscious of your time as well i usually ask a final question and then others follow but so we take away the fund but you have a magic power you have a magic wand and you can and change one thing in the food and ag space, what would that be?
SPEAKER_01:I'm not allowed two things.
SPEAKER_00:You're not allowed one thing and changing it to two. It's not Aladin.
SPEAKER_01:So then I would be torn between either literally not a single person is allowed to walk down the path of a farmer's home that isn't promoting nature in the way that they are growing what we rely on. Use, eat, burn. That's one. And the other would be that every single time someone picks anything up off the shelves of a supermarket, there's immediate transparency and they understand what they are purchasing. you know, as a mother of young children, I hate it that I actually don't know, is this really good for my child or not? And am I feeding them in the end something that actually is bringing, because, you know, what you put into the ground in the end is what you're putting into your own body. It's that simple. We've made it enormously complicated and we've made it very sophisticated and we have, you know, the whole world global food system is extremely opaque. And in the end, it's extremely simple. You know, what you feed the grass, kind of what was put to me by someone is, you know, what does the plant eat? So what you give the plant to eat and what the soil eats in the end is what you're going to eat. So I think a level of transparency that means also consumers make more considered choices so that it's not a price game. Because in the end, of course, if something is a bit cheaper on the shelf and you're or managing a budget, you're going to be weighing up, okay, well, in the end, it's about price, not about taste, not about nutrition. So I think a magic wand across kind of all of the shelves in a supermarket that somehow gives you that spotlight of, oh, this is bloody tasty. It's really good for you. And it's not ridiculously more expensive. Oh, I'll take that instead.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's a good way to close this interview. Thank you, Gina, so much for sharing in this weird year, the end of a weird year. We're almost at the end, actually. and of course congrats with all the progress and I'm pretty sure we'll be checking in but for now thank you so much for sharing your knowledge your openness and for the amazing advice you give to others that are struggling or are let's say in the grind still figuring out how to raise capital in 2020 which has been a crazy year.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you very much Koen and I should say on behalf of the whole community we're all so super thrilled with the work that you do and you are one of those great connectors and supporters so I Thank
SPEAKER_00:you very much. Thank you so much. found the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast valuable, there are a few simple ways you can use to support it. Number one, rate and review the podcast on your podcast app. That's the best way for other listeners to find the podcast and it only takes a few seconds. Number two, share this podcast on social media or email it to your friends and colleagues. Number three, if this podcast has been of value to you and if you have the means, please join my membership community to help grow this platform and allow me to take it further. You can find all the details on Gumroad Thank you so much and see you at the next podcast.
