Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast features the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
112 Kirsty Saddler, using the power of storytelling and marketing to disrupt the agri food world
How can we build a regenerative and disruptive agrifood brand? What precisely is the role of marketing and storytelling when it comes to scaling regenerative agriculture? Listen to Kirsty Saddler on the third episode of New Foundation Farms series.
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With Kirsty, Chief Marketing Officer at the New Foundation Farms, we dive into the power of marketing to disrupt the agrifood world. At the end, we are also joined, yet again, by Mark Drewell as he discusses how the investors on their roadshow are responding to impact measurement and management.
More about this episode on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/kirsty-saddler.
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How do you build a regenerative, disruptive agri-food brand? What's the role of marketing and storytelling to scale regenerative agriculture? Join us in the third episode in the series to unpack new foundation farms, raising£20 million to buy 1,000 acres in the UK and build a regenerative agri-food enterprise. Definitely listen to the previous interviews with Mark and Marcus, the executive chair and CEO. You can find the links in the show notes below. And stay until the end when Mark joins us to discuss how the investors on their current roadshow are responding to the impact measurement and management questions and discussions. Welcome to another episode of In March last year, we launched our membership community to make it easy for fans to support our work. And so many of you have joined as a member. We've launched different types of benefits, exclusive content, Q&A webinars with former guests, Ask Me Anything sessions, plus so much more to come in the future. For more information on the different tiers, benefits and how to become a member, check gumroad.com slash investingbridge.com. Welcome to another episode, Today with Kirstie Sattler. the Chief Marketing Officer of New Foundation Farms. This is part of our series where we unpeel the onion of New Foundation Farms who are raising 20 million pounds to buy a thousand acres in the UK, building a regenerative agri-food enterprise. And today we're going to go deep into the agri-food enterprise. Welcome Kirstie.
SPEAKER_02:Hello, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01:And to start with the personal question we always love to ask, how did you end up in this case in New Foundation Farms working on soils and so much more in the UK?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, so for me, For me, actually, when I think about the whole team, I'm probably the newest to regenerative agriculture. And I think I've probably had a sort of slightly squiggly career. But I think actually, fundamentally, it's like a tale of two parents. So I had one parent who really railed against education, ultimately was quite capitalist, still to this day, admires Thatcher. And then I have another parent who lived really with feet on the ground, head in the clouds, believed in endless curiosity. and the power of imagination and that for me is what led me to start my career in advertising because I've always found I've existed in that sort of space of tension really between the commercial world and a sense of creativity and actually though what has now increasingly been more around purpose and impact and so for me that's why I find regenerative agriculture although it's really only something I discovered less than a year ago but that's what I find so compelling I think the economic case for regenerative agriculture is ironclad when you look at the way in which it can operate and manifest. But then I find on the other side of things as well, the timing now to be able to re-engage people with farming, the importance of soil, just what it is as a matter and how it exists and how little we know about it, I think is amazing. And it's literally got a sense of kind of stability to it, I think, and potentially certainty.
SPEAKER_01:grounded
SPEAKER_02:yeah literally so I think this idea the timing now to be able to get people to be more interested and inspired by soil and then the role it can play in agriculture and of course ultimately food I find that actually very hopeful so it's again it's about sitting between sort of the tension of what I tend to see as those two sides that's really what drew me to regenerative agriculture which is how I came to find me me Mark and Marcus, the two first co-founders of New Foundation Farms.
SPEAKER_01:And you've worked in food before. You didn't work only in, let's say, advertisement and the world of broadly storytelling. Can you explain a bit there? Because you weren't completely new to the food world or definitely not actually completely new to the food world.
SPEAKER_02:No, that's very true. Very true. So yes, I have many years in ad agencies, but then I happened to have a meeting in 2015. So almost six years ago now with the co-founder and CEO of New on restaurants, which is a UK-based business, but actually does have some restaurants in Europe. And it is a naturally fast food brand. So it's very much a business of food retail. But I joined as brand and marketing director at a point where the business was looking to go through rapid expansion. And that, for me, brought a whole host of learnings and experiences very much connected to food, where it comes from, what it can mean for people, and how you can prepare it, the role of menus and recipes. And then, of course, the bit that sort of fits most closely with my title, but the marketing, you know, how do you present it to people? How do you get it to become the food that they would choose to buy? So I spent four years as brand and marketing director in that business. And then actually, after a hiatus, I returned last year to focus on sustainability and values, because I think that sustainability is something I've always personally been very driven by. And I did a MSC in sustainability and responsibility. Gosh, 10 years ago now. But, you know, that for me as well, and knowing the Leon business the way I did, there was huge opportunity, I think, to be able to go back and focus on that side of things as well, which is, of course, kind of was a stepping stone to getting to understand the role of soil and regenerative agriculture.
SPEAKER_01:And then how did you end up here where you are now? I know the story. That's why I'm asking. And it's a testament of reaching out and doing. And I mean, it's not that you It's an interesting story. Let's go into it.
SPEAKER_02:How did you meet Mark and Marcus? Actually, I was spending more time on LinkedIn. And I came across somehow, I think, through a set of connections in my network, I came across an article written by our chair in Responsible Investor Magazine. So an article written by Mark on the role of regenerative agriculture and on its potential to offer a new asset class for investment in the UK. And I just found it so inspiring that there was something that had this much economic potential in it. And obviously it was new to me, so I didn't fully understand it. So I contacted him, I sent him a message on LinkedIn. I was like, right, read your article, thought it was fascinating. Don't think I understand all of it. Have you got time to talk? So we set up a call and it ended up, it was myself, Mark and Marcus. And really within about 15 minutes, I just, I think, felt a connection. And we really hadn't obviously got very deep into any particular topic. But Mark, I think, just said, would you be interested in working with me? Would you be interested in spending more time with us on the startup? We're creating a new foundation farm. And I just said, you know, I think I would. And I am a great believer in both synchronicity, but the importance of timing and how paths can cross and that there can be meaning in that, even if it's not something that was entirely by design or was consciously created. And so, yes, that led to a series of conversations over the months. And then for me, more formally joining the team at the end of January. January this year.
SPEAKER_01:And no, I think it's a testament to reaching out, being open to things that don't start spamming, obviously. I mean, don't, but for many people that are listening that want to get into or become active in this space, I mean, be active and try to, doesn't mean that you get always a response. People are extremely busy. I'm sorry if I didn't answer to some people, but it is interesting how these things happen, partly online, partly synchronicity, partly timing, but you have to be out there asking the questions, reaching out, being vulnerable and who knows what happens
SPEAKER_02:yeah i'm a massive believer in that that's how most of the opportunities for me professionally have happened that really was the way in which actually i first joined leon for example and sort of decisions before but i definitely agree with the point you make but i also think as well it's having the right reasons for pursuing the lines of inquiry that you are as well because i think there is something where like you say having a good reason and a good intention behind those inquiries i think that can become very clear quite quickly to people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you really reached out because you wanted to understand more, not because you were looking for a job. There's a difference that people sense that. And you had some general questions about how this would work, et cetera, as an interest. And so that's interesting. And then, so you started in January, obviously already engaged before. And then the big question here, we unpeeled part of the onion. I keep going back to the onion. I don't know why. With Mark and Marcus. And now I think it's time to go deeper into what is a disruptive And what makes it unique? Why now is the time? And I'm very interested to dive deeper into what that is and what that is from a storytelling perspective and from a marketing and all of that. But let's start with what is to you a disruptive agri-food brand and why are we talking about it now?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I think you can only really be disruptive if you've got quite a clear sense, obviously, of context and sort of where you'll start from and therefore kind of how you would be disruptive. And I think for me, a lot of the challenges in the UK is this increasing distance we have between ourselves and our food. And that's literally what the food is. But of course, where it comes from, how it was produced, where it was grown, what the value of it is. I mean, we now, I think, spend quite a depressingly small amount of our household income on food. It's 9%. I mean, the only country that spends less is the US.
SPEAKER_01:And we know the quality there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. It is also the fact that we have a really high percentage now of food in our baskets that's ultra processed. So I think for me, that's one part of it. The other part of it as well is also just over the years, the observation that I think food is very much becoming a bit like fashion. It's becoming labeled, it's becoming stylized, it's becoming something that's very much perceived And I think that those are, again, other things that are distancing people from their food. So I guess it's a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:Partly because of ex-colleagues of you and obviously the marketing industry coming back. very involved in discovering ultra processed foods in many cases. But yeah, telling a story that hit a nerve with all of us, just like the fashion industry did 20 years ago or more, it became and becomes quite a, yeah, quite a different thing than a couple of years ago.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I definitely agree. I definitely see myself as sort of perhaps a slightly reformed person from the ad industry because...
SPEAKER_01:Recovering, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think, yeah, looking for change anyway, I suppose, because it is true. I think the sort of the tentacles and effects of my and frankly, consumerism have just basically gone too far. And so I think when we think about being a disruptive brand in agri-food, it's very much following the principles of regenerative agriculture. It's kind of almost, it is a sort of leaping forward by reflecting back to the past. And I think there is something to be said for there can be quite a lot of disruption in actually just being incredibly honest, incredibly transparent, and actually making food something Thank you so much. regenerative agriculture are 30% less, that for us is absolutely something that we would want to be able to transfer over to people so that they can appreciate local quality food can be very fairly priced, quite competitively priced. And I think the other thing is being able to do more of a comparison for people on true cost. So the idea, you know, I do reference the fashion industry quite a bit, having done work with it before. But, you know, you look at certain fashion brands, and I just use this as an example I'm familiar with, not necessarily saying it's the best, but there was quite a lot of disruption when Everlane as a fashion brand broke down what actually goes into the price of a t-shirt or a sweatshirt. And I really think trying to create more understanding with customers as to what goes into the cost of food, because I think you've immediately been disruptive in depositioning processed food and showing that a huge amount of what you pay for is that packaging, is that branding is that logo, is that like set of logistics that we're involved in, frankly, taking a product from being very natural through to actually processing it to a point where it really no longer is.
SPEAKER_01:So is it something you're going to see in your products as well? Like that breakdown, that clear where things go to, because I see a few fashion brands and a few other brands using that. I haven't seen it in food yet. I mean, some mention, of course, this is how much goes to the farmer and compared like in coffee, there are some movements around that Mo Yi is doing that very nicely how much stays actually in the country or not how much travels outside and is that something you're going to see on the packaging is that something we're going to see on the wall in the farm shop how we're going to see that as customers in new foundation farms
SPEAKER_02:yeah I mean we are in development so I probably couldn't say exactly where you'll see it but the point is that you would be able to see that and have that as part
SPEAKER_01:input stuff the whole
SPEAKER_02:yes as part of your decision making process because I think in the end they is an enormous amount of talk really across all of industry about people as consumers and we don't subscribe to that partly because I think the more you talk about consumers the more you're taking people away from being creators and I think the point here is that how do we empower people to feel more like citizen shoppers where they understand the contribution that their money makes because whether we like it or not money is power the point is it's somebody else's power or whether it's yours and the more information we can very simply and excessively give people the more power they will have over their own decision making but ultimately their food systems and I think that when we think about the way in which we would like to develop new foundation farms from a first farm of 1000 acres up to a series of hubs that we create across the UK with farms that are central but then probably clusters of farms that we've either partnered with or that we've helped support to transition to regenerative agriculture that's where also we've got these circles of influence that involve those local communities and those citizen shoppers and that is part of why we think the model of development that we're going for will be disruptive and ideally will create positive change.
SPEAKER_01:So how is this different from your typical farm shop where you see the connection like you visit a farm shop in my imagination I have yet to look at the numbers it's typically fairly small you buy a certain amount of product and you have the connection to the land maybe you can even eat there because in some cases obviously they added the restaurant part which is very interesting for margins if you don't do it well but it is also I mean accessibility is an issue prices are often interestingly high and not so accessible because you have to go which immediately makes it inaccessible for a lot of people and you're mentioning this disruptive part so how do we envision okay how can I as a potential client in the future in a year from now at the end of this year get access to to food through new foundation farms what's the experience like for the different types of customers
SPEAKER_02:one of the main parts of the new foundation farms model is to be able to stack the different economic activities so for the 1000 acre first farm we are planning to have 1000 square meters of both processing and retail so i think like you say that is i think the processing perhaps slightly less typical for a farm but the retail not necessarily So I think that what we will be striving for is to have that shop experience, but also to have a cafe and a restaurant because it's not just the transaction that is important. I think like we've talked about with...
SPEAKER_01:That can happen online.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, with transparent pricing, it is also creating a sense of food culture. And I think that is vitally important because then you've created more points of connection for people than just I've come in, I bought a product and I've left. And so... there's two points i'd make about that one from an accessibility point of view like i said i think we would be aiming for very fair pricing but two also i think the way in which we stock that shop obviously needs to be really considered because we are looking to become a replacement for the weekly grocery shop that people could do elsewhere so
SPEAKER_01:i need to find almost everything there
SPEAKER_02:well we would look to have kind of curated choice so it's the things that people need not necessarily lots of choice in each category
SPEAKER_01:no no not 16 types of been about it but yeah at least I would like yeah you need to to feel that you can do your weekly shopping even if it's a bit more limited than the mega supermarket aisles that we're getting used to
SPEAKER_02:and I think that's really where we would see there's two sides to the way people make decisions aren't there one is a more emotive side and the other is a really practical side and I think from my point of view and my experience we really have to be very successful on the practical aspect so that is are we easy to visit are our prices fair and also is it as convenient as possible to buy from and this is where the role for tech for us is really important so this is why we have a really strong COO and CTO in Wayne who I know you'll be hearing from in a later podcast but you know we don't want to be a charming place that you have to visit in person to be able to buy a few special things you know we would like to be somewhere where it's really easy for you to buy online and have the items delivered but also then yes to visit in person. So I think there's that side of it.
SPEAKER_01:And how do you see that split? Is it going to be 80-20? I don't know which side it's going to be 80-20. But in terms of this online explosion that obviously we have seen during COVID, like the meal box companies are going through the roof and supermarkets are scrambling to keep up with online. How do you see that split in terms of visiting versus maybe I visited once and then I continue to buy my weekly or monthly stuff through you and not visit necessarily every week?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so in the UK, actually, the uptake pre-COVID, the uptake of digital food delivery and so on was actually surprisingly slow. And I think that is because there's a, it's taken time for people to adopt that behaviour. There is also just something where particularly when it comes to food, people do still like to see the produce and make that choice. And we found, I think in the UK in particular, the weekly shop still happens, but increasingly people are just shopping for smaller, smaller number of items more often. I think Thank you so much. want to become is the sort of just replacement and that people purely do buy in the way they currently do because that is part of the challenge is that there is not enough of an emotional connection and I think an engagement of attention into food shopping that's why I think we've managed to speed up the process of shopping and reduce the amount of time and kind of enthusiasm that can go into buying products and I don't think it has to be that that is because about a cost thing I think think it's just largely about trying to create renewed appreciation for food, its quality and the role that it plays in your life.
SPEAKER_01:Prioritization.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So I think on the question of digital versus in real life, we'd hope to maintain a balance if it goes that there are more digital transactions over time, which hopefully there probably would be because there's something in that about convenience and about it being more likely that people could buy more regularly. But we would always want to also be bringing people to the site because it's the transparency by which we would share our farming process and encourage people to actually spend the time on the land that we're doing that more holistic. We're playing a more holistic role, I think, in foundation farms.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's going to be fascinating to see how that will shift and how often people will keep, like, let's say regular online customers, how often will they visit because not necessarily to do the shopping and it will do as well, but because of the experience and because of the food to eat there and because of the farm to or because of X, Y, Z and keep checking in, keep visiting just to make sure they have that connection compared to a pure online brand or a pure farm shop brand. I think that combination is going to be very interesting, challenging because they're very different beasts, but obviously also in terms of skill needed or necessary because you're just running between brackets because it's not easy. A farm shop could be very challenging in terms of quantity. You need to push through that to make sense, especially if you're operating a thousand acres.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's true. I mean, but just I suppose as there is the diversity of produce that we're planning to farm you know true to regenerative agriculture principles in a way the diversity of ways in which you could buy and what we look to sell we think in the end it will become beneficial to have that rather than complex because one of the big parts of what we are and what we will work to achieve is to be able to when we start and not having a lot of our own produce we will be sourcing from local farmers and And that for us is a beneficial thing for increasing our network, being able to share the learnings and obviously then more easily having a diversity of products to sell. Because I think a lot of the way in which we will look to create change in the system is to be able to establish a sales platform that proves the market demand for regenerative agriculture, which is then an incentive for other farmers to transition.
SPEAKER_01:And how do you deal with, let's say those farmers maybe are in some part of the transition, but as nobody's done yet or nobody is a regenerative farmer how do you deal with the fact that they might be still applying practices that you let's say are not in favor with or in a couple of years are definitely not doing on your farm how are you going to choose between not supplying or not selling this produce as you know that the farmer is in the transition of phasing out xyz or not using that anymore but still might be using this this year how do you deal with that in terms of maybe the customers are coming and expect a fully regenerative whatever that means supermarket ready and Again,
SPEAKER_02:I think it's the transparency by which we present the product, because I think that we will, of course, be looking to source produce from mission aligned farmers that will be at some stage on the journey, as we will also be. And I think it's about how honestly and easily we can share the information with customers around what that product is and what may have been used in the process of producing it. But obviously, hopefully being able to point out what we can do. So there's a lot of reason why claims drive marketing and drive preference. And a lot of it is because they're simplistic. They are the kind of things that people begin to recognize and then base their choices on. And I think we are aware of that. But I think it is about how you try and add just that bit more information, but easily for people so that they understand that actually it's not necessarily about that, whether it has a single accreditation or not. There's other things to be considered. And to be very honest as well, I think there is something in the fact that from a producer point of view, regenerative is very powerful. From a mainstream market point of view, regenerative is very little understood. So a lot of it actually, I think, comes down to language. So the idea of being able to have a positive impact on nature or help biodiversity or actually also one of the biggest drivers in the UK is the appreciation for local food. Local doesn't necessarily mean mean better but it is part of the story that actually from the way we would look to be sourcing produce for the shop at new foundation farms that will be important so again a lot of it i think for us will come down to honesty transparency but just the nuance of language as well
SPEAKER_01:that's a difficult one because everybody seems to be looking for okay can we come up with a region label and then we just say okay this is region that's not and of course by definition that's very very difficult or probably impossible because it is a journey and it means it's not a yes or no question but consumers are used to that like it's either is organic or isn't even though there are 50 shades of organic we're very used to look at the package okay this is without that or this is with that and that's it that journey is going to be very very interesting and challenging I can imagine what do you see as the biggest challenge coming into this space relatively fresh but obviously with a lot of food and storytelling experience and marketing experience is that explaining that journey or taking the people on the journey is that keep answering the question why there's no layer What do you see as the biggest challenge at the moment? I mean, that could be different in a couple of months, obviously.
SPEAKER_02:Just to clarify the question, do you mean the biggest challenge coming into selling regenerative produce?
SPEAKER_01:Could be the biggest challenge and opportunity. Like what do you see as like with a different set of glasses, really looking at the marketing perspective, really look at the storytelling, really looking at how do we engage large groups of people as you've done in the past with other brands and other work? What do you see as that interesting tension point? where maybe it's a challenge now and it could be a huge opportunity a year down the line or six months down the line when obviously a lot more things are clear because we're a bit in the dark at the moment?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I think that one of the biggest things that drives marketing, to be honest, is a sense of, like we've mentioned already, reductionism. It is this idea of how simple can you make the message and how often and how many different ways can you repeat it? And I think that that is almost then equivalent to the problems with industrial agriculture. It has become simplistic in here's a set of inputs that you use. They come from kind of a few sources, a few massive companies. That's where you might get your fertilizers and your antibiotics. And let's keep it simple because we're really focused on yield. Let's just do a few crops or a set of livestock on our land. And the diversity by which we need to approach regenerative farming is in real honesty, the diversity we which we need to approach the way in which we present the produce to people. Because I don't think I am too naive or idealist, but the bit that really attracted me to New Foundation Farms is this idea of pursuing a kind of action-based research approach. You know, we really are setting out to, we will have our first 1000 acre farm, and we will learn from that, I think, what are the best ways of doing this. But I think, although our ambition is to go national. What I think is crucial in all of this is to create the importance of connections and of each customer that will become part of what we create at that first new foundation farm. And to never forget that, I think, because one of the challenges is how much scale for any business and brand weakens the individual human connections. And I say this, obviously, kind of sort of that sounds quite fundamental, but I do think that That's true. So I actually think that the challenges really are more practical of how to establish our first farm really successfully in a way that shows that we really are interested in what the local community care about, who they are, how they might both shop from us or with us. And I think that that's the way in which we will model how our replication and our scaling will work well. So I increasingly find myself seeing people parallels between how to move from conventional agriculture to regenerative agriculture, and frankly, how to then move from really commercial marketing and branding to something that feels more regenerative as a practice on that side as well.
SPEAKER_01:I think what's going to be interesting, because for many farm shops or the ones I know, I mean, the marketing or the communication happens because of the farmer and the owners. And that's usually a small team. I'm generalizing here, obviously. Don't start writing if you have a big one. But But it's usually they are the farmers or they are the story and they are, et cetera, et cetera. In this case, with 100 people working at some point there, it's going to be the interesting piece of how do you make all of them, not ambassadors, but how do you make them really part of Neo Foundation Farms that they are the story as well, even though they might not be the typical organic farmer you've seen on packaging, which doesn't exist, by the way, but the ones that you see that we've created in terms of in our minds and in the videos and in the marketing we've seen, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So how do you scale that without losing that personal story? Because all of them will have a personal story and that's why it's important to keep them obviously engaged very long term and to make them really part of it. So how does that, that's going to be, I think, one of the interesting tensions to make sure to have a diverse story there, but still a sort of, not central story, but a general holistic story, even though there are a hundred different people or more that are going to share at your table, at the shop, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think the central story will be the themes that Thank you. hand over my money for this item that I'm going to make part of my meal.
SPEAKER_01:It
SPEAKER_02:is calories. 100 employees due to the model we have due to it being regenerative agriculture but that idea as well that just because perhaps your primary work is in the shop we will work though for them to also have an experience on the land I think and to you know have their time as part of that process because I think then that does mean that the way in which they're able to talk about the produce and present it to people is just far more credible so I think that for us as well is quite an important part of No,
SPEAKER_01:I think it's going to be fascinating and fundamental. And sometimes the stories will diverge and sometimes they won't. And it's going to be a very interesting part of letting go. And that's very much part of a regenerative or regeneration transition or journey. And you're not in control of everything. And that's OK. I want to be conscious of your time and end with a few questions that we always like to ask and start with a question definitely inspired by John Kemp. What do you believe to be true about regenerative agriculture that others don't? So where are you contrary?
SPEAKER_02:So I think on this, I actually think that there's something about regenerative agriculture where there's a lot of polarisation and sort of labelling and moralising around ways both of farming, but also I think that we've said in types of food. And I do think that there's something in regenerative agriculture that's so holistic in its approach that it can integrate and sort of transcend that, if you like, particularly because one of the dominant narratives here at the moment I think a lot of work is needed there because it's
SPEAKER_01:we really easily slip into those conversations and that basically battling each other from vegan to the mob grazing guys and girls. And I think it's just as in the fossil fuel industry, it's just delaying us. It's delaying to get to the point of regeneration. And it's exactly what, let's say, industrial extractive agriculture wants. So they keep feeding that with interesting reports that show all kinds of things that if you look at the data, doesn't show it at all, but just to delay. Every day of delay is another week of selling industrial chickens. And And that really works well. And then the other argument is you can never feed the world with this. Like there are not enough calories and all of that, which has been, I think, debunked. I don't know how many times, but keeps surfacing and surfacing. So it's going to be very interesting to invite the hardcore vegans on a farm like that and see, have a context discussion with everyone involved. Like, should we be eating the quantity of meat we're eating or the quality of meat? And that's a very, and what is the role of animals if there is on this piece of land or this farm or this estate in this context? And how would that be? And Is that a separate question from should we eat or not eat? And what's the role? And probably there are two different questions, but that's not something you can fit on a one word billboard. I mean, context maybe, yes?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I think we, you know, for New Foundation Farms, we take, I think, a holistic view on diet. And, you know, we look quite closely at something like the Eat Lancet report, which does talk about how key plant-based eating is. And, you know, I think we do firmly believe that, but there is also a role for meat. And I think that we have no moralising view on meat either, that livestock and animals are also a key part, aren't they, of the regenerative food system. I think the one challenge that I think I particularly feel at the moment is around the levels of investment in lab-grown meat alternatives, because I think that's taking a huge amount of energy and interest, again, away from rural communities, rural areas, and frankly, nature and the countryside. And that's what I think is, again, so hopeful in regenerative but so needed, is to try and again wean us off a view that the solutions will be human centric. And I think that's where us being able to rediscover that we are part of nature and that we should work as part of it and alongside it. That is one of the ways in which I think we will really hope to present New Foundation Farms as radically natural farming. So sort of irrespective of that specific term, it is looking to help people appreciate where we sit as humans within those natural systems and therefore what farming can mean when you look at it that way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I think it's again there's a an interesting simplistic approach there like if we just invent lab meat and I'm all for research and going deep in certain things but it's a huge distraction because then the counterpart is let's just rewild everything else but actually for rewilding you need large animals which is a very interesting contradiction and it's a huge resource suck at the moment like we need smart people we need smart money. We need a lot of things to dive deep into what's the role with us in nature and to really explore that. And there's so much more to discover there than in a lab-grown meat facility. But somehow the funding goes there and does the people and does the excitement. And definitely they're also going up the hype cycle at the moment. And again, I'm not against the research, but I think there are more interesting, there are deeper questions to ask about biodiversity, nature, how we feed ourselves, how we feed everything else. And these are not the deep questions that And I see people coming from there, like, let's say, moving on at some point because they start asking those deep questions. But it's a long journey and they get a lot of hype.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think actually to your question about soil, this idea that, you know, 25% of the world's biodiversity is in the soil, like that then is really relatively undiscovered. And this idea, I think, of trying to reposition sort of insects and soil and that aspect of nature as innovative and as sources of progress. I think there is, and I say this, I suppose, from a storytelling branding perspective, but there's tremendous opportunity in that because I don't think that lab grown meat alternatives don't have a role. But I think like we've said, the level of interest, attention and funding that's going that way, it needs a counterbalance because I think that sort of approach to our food future, as well as then combined with our rates of urbanization, it does, I think, leave us feeling like we've
SPEAKER_01:disconnected even more yeah
SPEAKER_02:we're just leaving a tremendous we're turning our backs on a tremendous amount of value both economically and socially as well as it being something that needs much more of our energy ecologically
SPEAKER_01:and so that's actually a great bridge to the next question if you had a magic wand and you could change one thing in the ag and food industry or in general but what would you change could be consciousness could be changing food labeling could be in fact could be anything but only one what would you do
SPEAKER_02:I mean unsurprisingly actually I think I would look at the branding of it and how it's presented because I do think you know one of the methodologies used in the branding world is semiotics
SPEAKER_01:explain what is semiotics
SPEAKER_02:yes so it's a way of analyzing and looking at how a theme or a topic is presented and therefore how people perceive it that's a very simplistic definition I'm sure a listener would be able to give a better one but
SPEAKER_01:I will try to put a link in the show notes to something. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:I'll send one. Yeah, please. But there's something about the semiotics of agriculture where it just seems quite utilitarian. You see a lot of machinery. It's quite masculine. It's sort of, to be really honest, looks a bit like it's humans tidying up the countryside for the benefit of being incredibly productive. So you have that or you have something that really is charming of a previous era, but all sort of quite small and friendly, something another set of people tend to do, but probably not you the viewer. And I think that both of those ways of presenting agriculture and farming make it feel distanced from people, don't make it feel like it has energy and can be progressive. And I think when we think about the future that agriculture can play for us, I think finding other ways to present it with more diversity so that more different people could see it as something that And I think also, frankly, more indignation and interest from the public actually around the cost of land as well. Because again, the way the semiotics of the way agriculture and farming is presented to us is also part of the problem around how inaccessible UK land is now due to its cost. So I personally would love to be able to make those sorts of changes so that more people understood the value of agriculture and farming. more people saw it as something they could actually even do themselves. And they actually saw, recognised more of the role of that industry in the national interest and in our future. And to be honest, there is definitely that part of what we can and hope to do with New Foundation Farms is to present agriculture and food production in a different way. And that is ideally really complementary to a lot of what farmers are already doing. doing in running their successful farm shops and so on it's just perhaps that we have a slightly different entrepreneurial mindset but also a slightly different skill set in the team that means that in as part of the network that we do feel part of we can help do that on a larger scale
SPEAKER_01:i'm laughing because i'm asking a regular listener would notice by now i'm asking these questions in the other order and there's actually a perfect bridge to the next question what would you do if you would be in charge of so maybe the order all along was wrong the interviews we did so far. But what would you do with a billion dollar or billion pounds investment fund? Because you touched upon land. I'm making an assumption here that you go in that direction. But what if you would wake up tomorrow morning as an investment manager of quite a large investment fund? It has to be invested, meaning it has to come back at some point, could be without a return, could be a zero percent return, but it has to come back. What would you, Kirstie, focus on?
SPEAKER_02:I'm going to try and answer this. Let's see. I think that one of the most fundamental things that we could do is actually about having more impact for children on the food that they experience at an early age, because I think so much of it starts with the food that you experience from a young age and the mealtime experience that you have with that. And for me, actually, this line of thinking as well, it's massive credit to my former boss, the CEO of Leon, John Vincent, because Because he and his co-founder, Henry Dimbleby, worked on the school food plan. And that was looking at the fact that the economics for the government are better if they provide free infant school meals. And I really firmly believe that. And it's something that I care quite a lot about because I have children. They're at the primary school age where they do get their food at school. But I just think that that is so formative to children being introduced to different types of vegetables and tasting what quality food can be so
SPEAKER_01:would save us a lot of work later on because you mentioned the retasting or learning how to taste but it's a lot more difficult when you're 25 or 30 or plus compared to when you're five
SPEAKER_02:to be really honest yeah once you're out of childhood it's much much harder to develop an interest in more diverse flavors and understand quality food so for me investment in a really quality school food school food meal system that would also extend to home economic being taught in school. But that investment would actually drive the supply chain and drive an increase of quality.
SPEAKER_01:It's a long term supply chain investment.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it is. It's a long term investment, but it would also improve the culture of food in schools. You know, there's a brilliant organization here in the UK called Chefs in Schools, which encourages trained chefs to work in schools and just increase the pride in that preparation.
SPEAKER_01:And the quality.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I wouldn't. And obviously it saves costs that goes to our health services. So I don't really know that this is the neatest answer you'll have ever had. But for me, that's where I'd go. And it would be a long, long term investment. It is likely to not come back with return, but it would support, I think, a supply chain, a whole system that takes more pride and can better prepare the food. And then actually, you would ultimately be helping produce more discerning citizen shoppers when they reach adulthood, who then essentially will help lift the whole food system. with the kind of food that they are interested in and prepared to pay for.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's definitely the first time somebody mentioned children food system, but there is for sure a way to figure out how to make this an investment. In a sense, there's a lot of work being done on social impact bonds, which are not bonds, but like basically outcome payment schemes. And as you mentioned, investing in this actually saves all of us a lot of money. So the big challenge is not necessarily doing the food part, but it's figuring out how some of the money that's being saved, only a small percentage is for need it flows back to fund the whole scheme. And that's something that financial wizards have been figuring out for centuries. So that's not the impossible part. And I think a big part of this whole food as medicine or healthy food. And we actually did an interview with medically tailored meals with Catherine Couch. I'll put it in the links below. And like the savings are so enormous and we're starting to slowly figure out that not necessarily ultra processed food actually is helping. That will kind of going to be figuring out how to pay for those programs and how to pay for them. So I think it's an excellent answer, to be honest. And we're now joined by Mark Drewel, the executive chair of New Foundation Farms. And we're going to do a few small updates and small tidbits at the end of the interview with Kirstie. First of all, welcome back, Mark. And can you share a few updates fresh of the roadshow train, which obviously is virtual. But over the last week, since we last talked, any updates, interesting meetings you had, anything you can share, obviously, what has happened in fundraising land as you're raising 20 million.
SPEAKER_00:Hi again, Kun. Yeah, it's great to be back. The journey continues. And since we last spoke, we've been focusing a lot on the question of understanding impact. So for the first... two months of the roadshow, most of the conversations have been about the money. It's been all about how does the economics of this proposition work? That makes perfect sense when you're talking to people about deploying a significant amount of capital and wanting to offer a return on that, or at least a significant portion of it. It's important that the numbers stack up. But the last week, last 10 days, have been very focused on this issue of impact. And the reason is we've been talking in much more detail to a bunch of foundations and that's thrown up some really interesting challenges because The response is, okay, yeah, we get the economics. That's super. But talk to us about the impact of this. Because what you're talking about is a complete systems change. It's not just about changing the production paradigm in the way we grow food. It's also changing the journey between the field and the fork. And the consequence of that is a complete transition from a sort of industrial monoculture paradigm with big corporations sourcing food everywhere screwing the farmers on price and then shipping it off to faceless supermarkets. It's actually about reconnecting food everywhere locally, growing much more diverse produce and delivering it primarily in a local context. And that's a radical kind of mental shift that people have to make. And so when you talk about impact, you find yourself saying, OK, well, we can talk about, you know, the amount of carbon sequestrated on land or how many farmers are trained and educated or how the food narrative changes because of the way you have better choices for food but overall the big picture here is this is about a complete systems change and it's quite an interesting challenge for foundation capital to think about that because generally they look at interventions yeah specific interventions so how much carbon are you going to capture and we say well you know a lot because we change the whole system but it's not because we change the whole system it's because by showing what's possible everyone changes and that's the
SPEAKER_01:sort of the highest level of impact investing people want to get to? How do you change through an investment? Or in this case, it could be a mix, obviously, of land and capital. How do you change the system? And then how do you respond? Because I think the second question would be, okay, great, you're going to have a lot of impact. How are you going to measure? Or what are you going to measure? Because in the world of impact measurement and management, there's a world, let's say. What is your response there when that question comes?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I'm going to ask Kirstie to respond to that because we yesterday did a Kirsty led on that exactly answering that question so take us away.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah so I think as Mark was saying it is taking the same holistic approach really in the way that we would talk about and design the measurement of impacts as we're taking with the farming approach and farming plan so I think just to talk through some of the different layers of impact if you like there is of course fundamentally there's the soil health and how we measure the different characteristics of that and its improvement there's ecosystem health and the fact that we're using the eco Thank you so much. Thank you. of the real promise of regenerative agriculture is the nutrient density over time of the produce. And of course, then there's repeat customers and there's the time in nature. And that's where the invite we will have to people is don't just visit to buy, visit to spend time across the farm, depending on how much time you have, but being able to come into contact with part of the production or part of the landscape that we'll be cultivating. There is social health. And so there's a really interesting emergence, particularly in the UK of nature prescribing. So, you know, how can we play a part in supporting that and being able to further create connections for people with nature for their mental well-being? From an economic health perspective, you know, it's not just the economic health of New Foundation Farms as an enterprise, it's also the employment we can offer. So, rising well above the five or six employees that's typical for an 850 acre farm up to above 100 because we've got these stacked economic activities. But within that, looking to make sure that there is a real diversity of the people that we can employ that can be working with us and also apprenticeships there is a real challenge in the UK industry of agriculture that it's the least diverse industry nationally so we want to make sure we're playing a part in changing that but all of this and our model ladders up to the system change so how are we directly and indirectly increasing the acreage of land that's farmed regeneratively and a lot of this then brings in in the fact that we will be educating farmers in partnership with 3LM. And also just inspiring, I think, with case studies and the learnings that we will look to share as transparently as we can, as we really are doing in this series with you. And from a really macro level, I'm just very aware and clear on the fact that a massive shift in the agri-food industry can actually contribute to all of the sustainable development goals. So we can actually contribute to 10 of them directly and seven of them indirectly So for us, it is literally from the ground up, but really considering as consciously as we can what's happening at each layer of the enterprise, both for the way it will operate, but also how it can increase the impact over time.
SPEAKER_01:And when you presented this yesterday on the call with the foundations, what was the response and what were the questions about, if there were any questions?
SPEAKER_00:At some level, we're a social enterprise because we're purpose-driven, okay? But also we have this profit motive. And over Overall, there's always a question of making sure that foundation money is being used genuinely to drive change and not to make the cost of capital lower for a business.
SPEAKER_01:Sponsoring
SPEAKER_00:some investment. of the conversation really stems around motive and values. And we've noticed this a lot in the regenerative space is it's, we find it very easy to notice the difference between those who are driven in what they're doing by a deep conviction that we should do something differently. And those who are driven by the opportunity that this is the next best thing, you know, the next new gravy train. The consequence of that is really the difference between do I tweak the system in order to persuade people to give me a bucket of money to make myself rich? Or am I doing something that is with humility at the beginning of a journey of fundamental transition?
SPEAKER_01:Which could take decades and more.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it could take decades to come. And it's a real challenge because the good news is that foundations are really focused on that latter logic. Their discernment is all about trying to figure out...
SPEAKER_01:Trying to filter out the other
SPEAKER_00:ones. Yeah, exactly. So that's the kind of, I guess, the meta thing that underlies when you talk about impact it's very much around understanding the motive in a world where we're all innovating in just scratching the surface of what's possible
SPEAKER_01:yeah thank you thank you both so much for coming on at the back of this interview and shining light on an impact discussion that for sure could be a full other interview and probably a few of them as impact management and measurement is the whole world in itself but thank you so much for giving us a teaser and definitely we'll be digging deeper into this at some point
SPEAKER_00:thank you yeah thanks so
SPEAKER_01:much
SPEAKER_00:Great
SPEAKER_01:to be here. If this podcast has been of value to you and if you have the means, please join my membership community to help grow this platform and allow me to take it further. You can find all the details on gumroad.com slash Investing Region Egg or in the description below. Thank you so much and see you at the next podcast.
