115 Robin Saluoks and Kristjan Luha on how to start paying 1500 grain farmers across 1M hectares for soil carbon

A check in interview with Robin Saluoks and Kristjan Luha, co- founders of eAgronom,  a platform that enables farmers to manage and oversee their entire farm, employees, and fields. We discussed their current fundraising for their series A.
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We discussed how carbon payments can be a transition mechanism, how to ensure permanence of soil carbon and the importance of selling low carbon or carbon negative crops.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

An update with Robin and Christian of eAgonome who are working with 1,500 grain farmers across 1 million hectares in Central and Eastern Europe and they are starting to pay farmers for the carbon they capture. Welcome to another episode of Thank you. Ask Me Anything sessions plus so much more to come in the future. For more information on the different tiers, benefits and how to become a member, check gumroad.com slash investingbridgeandegg or find the link below. Thank you. Welcome to another episode. We have Robin and Christian back on the show. In October 2020, we had a long talk about how to partner with farmers and technology. And today they're back and we're going to talk about why they're focusing on carbon. So welcome, Christian and Robin. Hello. Hi, it's good to be back. For anybody that didn't listen to the other show, I will definitely put a link in the show notes below. But just Robin, in two, three sentences, I mean, you've been pitching so often now that you for sure have memorized the best way to summarize e-agronomy. but just for anybody that doesn't know what we're talking about what is e-agronome and then we get into the carbon into your current round some updates but what is a good a good introduction into what you've built over the last years

SPEAKER_01 1:58

yeah absolutely well e-agronome is number one farm management system in central eastern europe so farmers use this to plan manage and analyze their activities and based on this data we also give advice to farmers what crops to grow what tasks to do what fertilizers to use and so on and the result of this is increase the fee So higher profits and actually also smaller carbon footprint. But what makes the algorithm special is that in some cases, instead of farmers paying to us, we are paying to farmers. So they're benefiting from our carbon program now and get paid for capturing carbon from the

SPEAKER_00 2:35

atmosphere into the soil. That's super exciting. We're definitely going to unpack that. But just to give a flavor of what has happened since October, you've grown a lot. How many farmers are you working with right now? We're talking April 2021. Just to give an understanding of how many farmers and then of course the hectares that they represent.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Yeah, we have about one and a half thousand farms on platform and they manage across this fleet over a million hectares of grain land. We've recently expanded and made ourselves available also in Australia. Our main markets are here in Central Eastern Europe. Biggest one is Poland, Estonia, obviously where we're from as well, Latvia We have some clients also in Romania and Czech. And in October, we've grown about 50% since, which is a good growth season for us. We can mostly recruit farmers when they're not on their fields and that's after harvest and before spring. So those have been a good five months for us.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Wow, that's a good amount of hectares. And you're currently, obviously this is not investment advice to anybody listening, but I'm very interested in, as the title of this podcast, investing in regenerative agriculture food, you're currently raising a round. Can you explain, share a bit more on that, what you're looking for in terms of investors, what you're finding in the market, like how has those discussions over the last six months have gone? What are you seeing in the market in terms of investors that are getting, I think at least we see on our side, a lot more interest in the market, but maybe a lot of people are new to the space as well. So what has been your experience in this latest fundraising round that you are currently in the middle of?

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Well, first of all, why do we need money right now at all?

SPEAKER_00 4:16

That's a really good question to start with, Robin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah. Well, we are number one player in Poland, Estonia and Latvia. And besides this, we have some first customers. So we can't say we are in those markets, but we are ready to start scaling in those markets in four other markets, including actually Australia. But mainly in Poland, Latvia and Estonia, we have proved that the acronym model works quite well. So our annual customer value is higher than the customer acquisition cost. And so we we are efficient in recruiting new farmers to the platform. We are also upselling the digital advisory package and now bringing those farmers into carbon program. But obviously, those three markets are not enough for changing the agriculture in total. And that's why we need the financing as well to scale the new markets, mainly actually the markets where we already have some customer base, but then also to bring carbon program to these farmers so that they can benefit from capturing more carbon into the soil, growing humus balances, reducing their own emissions, and etc.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

We touched upon that carbon piece briefly last time, we mostly looked at how do you platform and technology and software is helping to plan much better and work much more efficiently and effectively to make sure that you don't get into, you don't rotate yourself into problems. I think we mentioned specifically last time, and I keep using that phrase, which is very interesting, but the carbon piece I think has shifted quite a bit or has, let's say, accelerated over the last months. Can you explain a bit? Everybody has seen probably the attention or the hype we're going up to in terms of soil carbon, but what is happening on the ground with customers, your farmers, and then potentially other customers that are buying the carbon, the soil carbon of you. What has been happening since October, since we last spoke?

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Absolutely. Well, there are many ways how farmers can benefit from capturing carbon and reducing the emissions. And just to share the load, let me explain the first example that we call soil carbon, and then Christian can explain about carbon offset units. But with soil carbon, we have managed to successfully reduce the land rent of farmers who are capture carbon into the soil. As you probably know, then, half of the land in Europe is not owned by farmers, but rented to farmers, 40% in North America. So there are plenty of very big landowners who are long-term investors, and they want to make sure that their asset value is safe in the long term. Now, it's possible to farm in different ways. You can farm in a way that you have more carbon and more humus in the soil every year, but you can also farm in a way that you have less carbon and humus in the soil every year. And based on this, after, well, 10 to 15 years, the land value will be different. If you capture more carbon to the soil, then you have more nutrients in the soil as well. And the land value is higher.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Do you see that value already? That connection between, let's say, the health of the soil and the land value? Because that's a lot of discussion around it, that maybe a lot of investors don't recognize that, or a lot of land owners. And thus, there's a disconnect between what we see and what you see. You've been working with some landowners that do recognize that healthy soils is in their benefit.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Absolutely. Well, the first landowner with whom we actually made this deal, if they are valuing how much they are ready to pay for a new land that they are buying, they're actually looking to have a point system. And one of the attributes over there is how much humus or organic carbon there is actually in the soil. And it makes sense. It really makes sense. And that's how we made a deal with them as well for their farmland. farmers who rent land from them. They actually have 14,000 hectares, but their farmers obviously have in total 80,000 hectares. So farmers who rent land from them. And they now give a smaller rent to farmers with positive humus balance. So farmers who capture more carbon from the atmosphere to the soil and higher rent for farmers who

SPEAKER_00 8:19

don't do it. And you manage that program for them, for this landowner. And these farmers are clients of you as well. And how do you manage that? How do you measure that?

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah, so over there we use models that are built by local scientists. Now, if we move more to the Christian, what Christian will explain later about carbon offset units and carbon offsetting, there we use soil samples as well. But models are okay for landowners for their internal use. If they trust the models enough, then they trust that, okay, farmers are doing those activities, then their land quality in the future will be higher. So models for them are okay. But if we talk about producing carbon credits and soil measuring, you verify models are very

SPEAKER_00 9:35

important as well. But in this case, basically you're working with a large land owner and their farmers. And because you basically are the software for the farmers to manage their full operations, you know what they're doing or not doing in terms of plowing or plowing in terms of applying certain things, et cetera. And they pay a lower rent to the land owner if they apply certain things, which is a very interesting because of so longer term, it's interesting for them because of the costs. So there's a very interesting relationship there. very interesting incentive structure that you have been able to build. And you see that because you did one, you see that being interesting for other, you see an interest from other landowners?

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah, we made this deal with the biggest landowner in Estonia, and we are currently discussing with a very big landlord in Poland as well. But in the end, as you said, everybody wins. So farmer gets to pay smaller land rent, and actually the farm gets more efficient as well, but that's a secondary benefit. Then a landowner gets to make sure that their asset value is safe in the long term. And then the economy gets both FMS fee and then verification fee from the landowner.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

You get a small fee from both sides, which is very interesting. And then, Christian, to you, then there's the option to potentially sell these carbon credits with a few extra questions, obviously, around measurement and around outcome, etc. What's been happening there?

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Yeah, that opportunity is definitely there. But trading carbon credits in farming in itself is not even the main goal. The main goal is to create an extra source of revenue for the farmer. And if we zoom out a bit, farming generally is capital intensive. So there's high costs involved, but margins are not very high. And unpredictability is increasing. So there are more and more years where surprises happen, extreme weather events, bad yields, low yields. So farmers struggle a bit more than they used to. And on the other side, farming is a major source of greenhouse gas emissions globally. Then where the opportunity comes in is now on a global level, I think the awareness of climate change and the need to do something about it is growing. There is Paris Climate Agreement. If you look around, many countries and large corporations have committed to become net zero over the next 20 or 30 years and to significantly reduce their emissions and offset the rest. And farming is an opportunity because soils are a large carbon sink. So that's where we believe farmers can come in. And while they continue doing what they do, growing crops and feeding the people, we can also create an additional source of income here through carbon offsets or carbon removal units. And that's the path we've embarked on right now with a small selection of farmers in Estonia and Poland. There's a few thousands of hectares today piloting based on our methodology. We follow FAO guidelines and Rotham C soil sampling models. We also work with local scientists to localize the models to local conditions because soils are different and weather conditions are different in each of the countries. So we do want to make sure we maintain high standards and meet the high expectations in terms of methodology project requirements and then how do we establish the baseline how do we model the the outcomes and then verify the projected outcomes through soil testing regularly

SPEAKER_00 13:18

and how far are you in a sense what's missing or where are you already at like let's say a big buyer i mean one of the big ones that has mentioned or smaller ones that said i'm going to be net positive by this year so i need to offset or remove if they knock on the door maybe they already have like what's the current status of the carbon selling project not necessarily the carbon modeling with the landowners because they have a imagining like robin said a lower they need less and they need anyway they need longer term but what's the current status of the carbon project and what's still if something what's still missing

SPEAKER_02 13:51

yeah right now we're working with large companies in our home country estonia who wish to offset their remaining emissions and why they also want to be part of this project is to help local farmers in our home countries to do good and help them contribute to slowing down climate change and removing carbon from circulation, getting it back into the soil and keeping it there and so they have committed to purchase the first few thousand credits coming out of the pilot farmers this summer and then we plan to scale over summers as we get to the harvest that after this summer's harvest a larger number of farmers which switch practices having joined the program and then a year from now we can deliver the first carbon credits from this larger group initially in Poland, Estonia and Latvia and we're targeting a couple of hundred farms and over 100,000 hectares of grain land in this broader group as we go

SPEAKER_00 14:55

now. And what do you see maybe for Robin as you're targeting specific farms, what is the criteria and what are the practices as you let's say imagining with the farmers are changing or how do you to help them speed up and thus capture more like what are the main things that are different from the rest of the farmers you're working with

SPEAKER_01 15:15

yeah well that's very interesting question because if you talk about carbon offsetting and carbon credits then one of the challenges but it's it's really okay challenge and I think positive problem to have still is that it's for good farmers it's very hard to produce carbon credits so farm who already capture carbon, carbon credit in essence is something that has to be additional. So no one should support, if they want to offset their emissions, then they shouldn't support something that already happens. It should be additional

SPEAKER_00 15:47

activity. So you need to work with the farmers that are not doing any of this, or otherwise I've seen a picture somewhere saying, ah, you're only paying, I think it was in the US, like as a joke, but it's somehow true. I've been no-till and rotational for the last 15 years, and I'm not part, cannot be part of this program let me get my carbon decapture machine aka the plow and let's just plow everything and start over which is of course what you don't want like that's the risk we are all running so how do you get around that

SPEAKER_01 16:14

exactly and that was a big challenge we thought like many ways how we can like should we maybe put some of the credits aside that farmers are generating and give it just to farmers who already do good and well there were many thoughts that we had but in the end then we found or understood that there are other ways how farmers can benefit from the carbon program. For example, selling low carbon crops. We are not offering this today, but in the future, that's one of the things that we want to start offering that farmers, for example, my father, who is growing climate positive crops, so capturing more carbon than he's emitting with activities so that he could get higher price for the grain that he's selling. But at the same time, if there is a farmer doing a change in activities and starting capturing more carbon now, then this farmer has a choice either he or she can sell carbon credits away and then the farm balance would be a negative again or he or she can get a higher price for grain so it's very important to avoid double counting as well because otherwise let's say the big food company would say that their scope three emissions are zero all farmers are carbon neutral but at the same time these farmers are selling their credits away to shell big oil company let's say and they say that hey, we are also carbon neutral. So that's something that we have to avoid. So in this sense, after understanding this, then we feel now that the model really works. So those farmers who do already good can benefit from getting higher price for the grain or even some other benefits as well. And those farmers who are in the beginning of this journey of going climate positive, they can choose if they want to get higher price for the grain or sell their credits.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

You know, I just wanted to add that This is also the way, so there's a permanence concern that is often asked. So how do you know what is being put back in stays there forever? I think that's the definition of a carbon credit, an offset, so that it needs to be a permanent change. And one way of ensuring that is to continue. So let's say we have the 10-year project timeline with farmers. They establish their baseline and they apply new practices, start creating change. They will be on a different trajectory. then the 10 years is over last of their carbon offsets or removal units have been paid to them what happens then and what we know how do we manage the risk of them not falling back to some old practices and for example plowing again and that the same thing that robin talked about good farmers today will also apply in the future that we can work with those farmers then 10 years from now to continue sustainable practices beyond the life of the carbon project and um they will then be able to benefit from these sustainably farmed options where companies will have demand to purchase their crops and reward them for the good practices especially 10 years from now this must be much more of a norm than it is today. So

SPEAKER_00 19:18

the carbon paying is really a transition phase and we all need to work on making sure that the market of of ingredients of produce etc starts rewarding low carbon or even carbon positive crops and that's the long term carrot basically to keep everyone going apart from lower costs and all the other incentives that hopefully makes the farm much more efficient and effective but there it needs to come from the market at some point where they sell into which is something you can start building and probably are like how do you connect the best ingredients the best quality the best flavor but also the best carbon balance of a ton of grain basically to a market buyer that is interested in that

SPEAKER_01 19:58

yeah absolutely and obviously some activities still will be going see there does additional even after 20 years some some activities that wouldn't be profitable without carbon credits but the goal is that after let's say well three to five years we can arrange a very big party where every shot that you take will capture also carbon so imagine this how how good people would feel uh partying over there

SPEAKER_00 20:25

and how drunk they would get yeah and just an idea what what's your like the farms you work with now with a few thousand to hectares what are you seeing in terms of with this primary like the first phase in terms of capture potential what do you see per hectare very different circumstances I imagine but just as a range we talked about ranges before but what do you see as a range what is possible because we see very different numbers around what have you seen in the field that is actually doable

SPEAKER_02 20:52

yeah we've modeled many scenarios now and worked in detail with these first farmers and what we are seeing is the range is somewhere between it really depends where the farmer is coming from like what his baseline is and it's something between half a ton per hectare per year to one and a half to two tons depending on which practices he's already applying and then in addition to creating carbon credits or carbon offset units most farmers also benefit from reduced amount of inputs so they will be using less fuel so fewer passes across the field so there's some fuel savings and there's some savings from optimizing fertilizer use and we see it's roughly 80 20 so about 80 percent of the benefit for the farmer is coming from the carbon removal units and then 20 percent from reduced input costs

SPEAKER_00 21:51

and do you see that happening and changing over time as well like if they're reducing is there any difference between let's say very advanced ones that are have been working the soil for a long time in a different way maybe like your father Robin that is already carbon positive because I think he's been farming organic and beyond organic for a long time do you see that like in that cohort that you're working with like the more extreme ones are different there or what have you seen in the field with this few pilot farms so far

SPEAKER_01 22:18

yeah well if the time goes on and a farmer is continuing farming it this way then they will see that there are many other benefits as well that it's harder to prove in paper

SPEAKER_00 22:29

the biodiversity piece

SPEAKER_01 22:31

yeah exactly exactly so let's say if you eat healthy then most likely you won't get sick that much and same is true with the field and but it's really well it's difficult to prove those benefits on the paper but it's easier to prove at first benefits like hey you are reducing your fuel that much or red clover is capturing that much nitrogen and you don't have to you can reduce the amount that you're putting again saving some money and then we will pay this amount additionally and that's helping farmers to make the change. That's actually something that we thought as well. So current carbon programs, the contracts that we are signing with farmers are 10 year contracts. So that's a 10 year period. And for the first period, additional activity is whatever activity that farmer wasn't doing previously. So if farmer wasn't doing it, then it's considered additional. But after this 10 year period, additional activities will be only, well, something that farmer didn't do even this last 10 year period, and those that wouldn't be profitable without the carbon program. Because during this period, we want to prove that actually several activities are profitable anyways for farmers.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Even without the carbon piece.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah. But it's still additional because without this extra benefit from the carbon program or extra money or extra income, those farmers wouldn't be willing to make this change. They couldn't afford or they wouldn't hire someone like E-Agronom to guide them because with every farmer we have also we give them economical advice how they can make this change and to make sure that they benefit from this and they probably wouldn't be willing to take the risk as well because with every risk like every farmer has well average person has 40 years career and farmers as well but the difference is that farmer is getting feedback only once a year so imagine if you would do podcast only once a year how much would you consider before every question and everything you would say so that's the situation that that farmers have and that's why they're that risk averse. But this carbon program helps them to make this change. And then after a 10 year period, they will find out that, hey, we should continue those because they are profitable anyways.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

And do you see, let's say any, this ties perfectly in the risky part, let's say the more risky or the more adventurous pieces of carbon farming, which you see in other places as well, like integration of animals, very diverse cover crop mixes, like 15, 20 types we've seen around, may Maybe integration of trees as well into the fields. Is that something you imagine maybe in year eight or year 12 of the program with some adventurous farmers? Are people already asking about that? Like, is this going to enable some farmers that want to and are ready, obviously, to take those kind of risks? Is that something you're thinking of or are we not there yet?

SPEAKER_01 25:21

I think it really depends on the farmer, but it's not considered. We don't have this in the financial plans, our own financial plans. But I personally believe that once farmers see the benefits, from the CARMA program, then they want to go more and more at this path. So using plants in the fields and so on, this is something that we want to, for sure, research and offer the farmers. Right now, we are obviously doing simple things, reduce plowing, use cover crops, and maybe something extra. But once farmers see benefits and see that, hey, that really worked, then probably they're ready for the next step as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

And do you imagine any kind of let's say farming competition like between different farms who can do the fastest build up of soil carbon without cheating and obviously getting a lot of outside fertilization into or a lot of manure or a lot of compost

SPEAKER_01 26:14

that question is straight to the point because I think it's an international format soil you're on this and the format of this competition is that you put your underwear not actually your underwear that is from this specific natural material you bury it under the soil And then after a few months, you take it away. And the more it's eaten by bacteria and basically soil animals, the more healthy your soil is. And we started this competition in Estonia and Poland, and I think Latvia as well. And you know what's crazy? Before this, the hottest competitions in farming were plowing competition, who plows best, the yield competition, who gets most yield out of this. But now that's the hottest competition in farming in our region, right now so randomly like this our sales guy posted this in poland he was driving his daughter to the school and he heard national polish radio nationwide radio speaking without our initiative actually speaking about this competition that hey and about the importance of soil health and same things happening in estonia as well media is picking it up farmers are sharing that they are borrowing their own undies and so on and that's really really cool to see that the hottest competitions right now in the industry are not anymore plowing or yield, but it's soil health. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

I will find a link. It's really interesting how something silly, it's almost silly between brackets, can really capture the imagination of farmers. And I've seen it on, people have done it with teabags as well, to really see, okay, do you have an easy measurement or an easy proxy to see how fast does, in these days, cotton basically break down and does, how healthy is my soil? Everybody can do it. It's funny enough to share, but it's gets right to the point of how healthy how alive is your soil and i think some people will be in for a shock and some others will be in for some a nice surprise

SPEAKER_01 28:11

absolutely

SPEAKER_00 28:12

and with that i want to be conscious of your time and talk a bit about the current fundraising round you're doing like what are you i mean the reason you shared already you're you're in a number of countries and you want to expand in those countries actually not necessarily other countries but in the countries you're already active in what are you looking for like what have you seen talking to a lot of investors over the last months is it different than a year ago is it what have you felt basically in all those pitches obviously from a distance because nobody's traveling what has been the interest from the investor world maybe the traditional investor world as well into the topics of soil carbon into the topics of agriculture is there a lot of interest is there we still have to do a lot of work what do you see

SPEAKER_01 28:50

yeah that's an interesting question because well from one side carbon is very hot and that's something that all vcs are telling as well that hey that's because we are well we are among the first movers in Europe with this as well in agricultural carbon offsetting. And that's really interesting for VCs. Now, at the same time, if we go deeper, then it really depends. The North American investors know much more about this industry, probably because it has been there longer time. And then if we come to Europe, then that's really exciting. But investors are currently in this learning space that they're reading articles and just trying to understand where are the challenges and what questions to ask and so on. But there is interest, absolutely, but it's in the beginning. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02 29:40

as we talked to the funds, in our data room, we have a whole section for background reading materials for you. So then where we just keep compiling resources for them to get up to speed. And it's a very interesting topic for them, but they need to learn a lot and are looking for more information to understand the space

SPEAKER_00 29:59

better. And I can imagine that, I mean, it's great that you're doing all the education to investors but at some point you would like the investment in the company and not just you're not an education company you're a farming company and you need to get going but it's i mean that's the pioneering role as well like you're educating probably way more investors than end up investing because they're maybe not comfortable yet with the whole topic and they it's the first time they hear a lot of things i still amazed i think for how fast this topic has come to the forefront but how much research people have to do to fully grasp it how many farms they need to visit how much they have to understand how and they have to read. And yeah, we're definitely in the early days of that. And so you're currently raising your Series A. Can you share a bit more on that?

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yeah, we are raising 7 million euros. I said before, you scale in some new markets where we have customers, but we don't have local sales force yet. To accelerate the carbon program and to scale it, we have proven the carbon program with a small scale. And there is actually, interesting is that there are actually more interest from the farmer side than we can ourselves physically manage. But now we have to build some more technology behind there that we can scale this part of the business as well. So that's one of the areas. And then, well, the continuous product development as well. Today we are raising 7 million. We have a bit more than 5 million euros committed already, but we are currently in the process of choosing the lead investor. For the lead investor, the main, we have given up this dream that we would want someone who knows more about farming and carbon business than we know so that's not the main criteria for the

SPEAKER_00 31:40

investor. That slot is not available anymore for anybody listening so if they think they know more they can get in touch but you've given up that dream but so what are you looking for now?

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Yeah so but we're looking mainly for VCs who help us to secure the Series B round so who want to invest in Series A they want to follow on in Series B as well and get us behind the tables of really top-notch investors over there. We have some great commitments already, like a founder of a firm called TransferWise. Now it's called Wise. I'm a

SPEAKER_00 32:13

customer, yeah. They changed the names over time.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Yeah. But a very

SPEAKER_00 32:16

interesting company.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Unicorn, I think they're valued at 3 billion or so. Well, actually more. There are rumors about IPO and so on, but another topic. And obviously they will help with this exact topic as well. But yeah, looking for a lead. And then from the following investors so that's why we have actually quite a many following commitments we try to choose VCs from different markets that are interesting for us because we see that even if these VCs are not necessarily like with farming background they still have access better access than we have your local media and some local contacts and so on and that's really helpful

SPEAKER_00 32:51

yeah so you don't have to rely only on burying underwear to get on the radio which is a great way but still yeah

SPEAKER_01 32:57

it is it is a great way

SPEAKER_00 32:59

so I want to be conscious of your time and thank you so much for this update I think there a lot has happened in six months or less actually and very excited for your carbon program and programs coming over the next years and obviously for all the work you have been doing. And like the farming season has started, which means your growth season in terms of new farmers has stopped. But now you have to serve all the farmers that are in the field, planting, monitoring, modeling and all of that. So I wish you a lot of luck with that.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

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