QA webinar with Dan Kittredge, Bionutrient Food Association

The audio recording of the QA Webinar with Dan Kittredge, founder of the Bionutrient Food Association,  hosted by Koen van Seijen.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're going to listen to an audio recording of the Q&A webinar with Dan Kittredge on nutrient density. Please find the full video, plus all the show notes and everything we discussed, and much more on investinginregenerativeagriculture.com. Enjoy! Welcome to another episode of In March last year, we launched our membership community to make it easy for fans to support our work. And so many of you have joined as a member. We've launched different types of benefits, exclusive content, Q&A webinars with former guests, Ask Me Anything sessions, plus so much more to come in the future. For more information on the different tiers, benefits and how to become a member, check gumroad.com slash investingbridge Welcome to this investing in regenerative agriculture and food podcast webinar. If you haven't been listening to the podcast, Definitely do so. You can find it in all your podcast apps, which basically means in Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Overcast, et cetera, et cetera. Just search for investing in regenerative agriculture. And we are usually with Jon Kemp, the only one that shows up, which is great. And we're trying to answer this question, how to put money to work to regenerate soils at scale, regenerate people, local communities and ecosystems. And it's been a wild ride. We did over a hundred interviews. I think 110 were up now. We did a number of webinars last year and the community has been growing, which is absolutely amazing could never imagine that when we started four and a half years ago when literally obviously nobody was listening so finally your favorite app we also this is part of a video course we've launched in august so there's 16 lessons on investing in regenerative agriculture and food and one of them is on nutrient density and i want to bring on one of the people we always refer to then get rich to go a bit deeper if you want to find more about the course it's pay what you think it's worth so completely up to you go to investing in regenerative agriculture dot com slash course and you can find out all the information So what is regenerative agriculture? I found a definition and then immediately put under that same sentence, there is no definition because it's a journey, but just to set the stage a bit, it's according to Terragenesis, it's a system of farming principles and practices that increase biodiversity, enriches soils and improves watersheds and enhances ecosystem services. I think the important words here are increase, enriches, improves and enhances, basically regenerates, and it shows that it's a journey. It's not a, you are regenerative or you're not. The question to ask a farmer, are you a regenerative farmer is usually a wrong question because someone is on a journey and as Dan can probably attest, they're never done. I've never met a farmer that says, no, no, I'm really done with my soils. I'm not going to improve anything next year. They usually have a plan for another 10 years or so. So this is, I always like to show this regenerative versus sustainable versus extractive and degenerative. This is one way of putting it. And this is the other way that I definitely stole from Ethan Soloviev's amazing paper or medium post on the regenerative agriculture or the agriculture continuum. Definitely dive into that if you want to know more. I'll put the link also in the show notes below. So a lot of practices. What are these approaches and practices we see often? The soil is always covered. There are complex rotations in place and time. There's no or very limited tilling and soil disturbance. And then between brackets, because not everybody is doing that, but there's the integration of animals, which seems to happen, especially in certain climates, very often. So these are a number, a set of practices. Definitely, it depends on where you are. It's always context specific. If you want to know more, read that article of Even Soloviev, read a number of books. I mean, definitely David Montgomery is a good introduction. Kiss the Ground as well. Dirt to Soil by Gabe Brown. Richard Perkins on YouTube is an amazing resource. Judith Swartz, who we just re-interviewed on the podcast, written a number of amazing books. And of course, if you want to listen to the podcast. And now we're going to go to Dan of the Bionutrient Food Association. We're going to ask all the questions we have for him in terms of nutrients and the connection to healthy soils. Just to, we already mentioned it, there are going to be weekly webinars starting on February 4th. And this is the 10th Annual Soil and Nutrient Conference, which obviously now is going to be a series of webinars. So go to soilandnutrition.org if you want to know more. And the theme is Weaving Science and Wisdom, which I think we're going to ask some questions about as well. We had a few questions. People sent that in. So what's the order? It's going to be basically who sent in this question first. It's going to be answered first. And then we're going to go to the chat for anybody that has a question. Please type it in the chat. If you have answers to the questions of other people in the chat, please make this as interactive as possible But we are going to basically kick off with a question of Chris. We are about to launch research into the correlation in soil health and produce nutrient density and the quality of human health. Are you aware of such similar studies? So basically, Chris is working on a study like that and asking the question if they should be aware of other studies like that.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Well, I'll just start off by saying what we've been doing at the BFA. We're a 10-year-old educational nonprofit. And for the last four years, we've been working on the Real Food Campaign, which is a collaborative endeavor across nonprofits, for-profits, foundations, supply chain, researchers, universities. We're attempting to answer these questions. We've got sort of what we call a three-legged stool of objectives. And it all comes from the assumption that there is a connection between all these things, soil health, plant health, and nutrient levels in the crops and human health. I would say cultural health, spiritual health, perhaps a deeper conversation. And so from the perspective of economic what we did a number of years ago was that if we could have some way that people could get compensated for the quality of the food, not the volume of the food, that would be an economic driver, which should facilitate ideally some much more rapid transitions than have been occurring. And so our thought was the way to do that would be with a handheld sensor where you're actually able to test this carrot versus that carrot, not just go on a sort of a binary certification labeling system, organic or biodynamic or whatever. And so our three objectives in this Real Food Campaign are one, to build a handheld sensor that can be used by anybody at a reasonable price point in the supply chain, grower, agronomist, buyer, wholesaler, packer, processor, retailer, consumer, chef, nutritionist, et cetera. We want everybody to have access to this empirical assessment. So step one is build an instrument. Is it possible? This is non-invasive. So flash a light and read the light that bounces back effectively and see what something is. Step two is to actually define what nutrient density is. It's the term that I think, at least when I started looking into these topics, was not out there maybe 10 or more years ago. And it's sort of one that we've helped to popularize. And there's a general understanding about what it means, but there's actually no technical definition. And that's one of the first things that we think is critically important before moving forward is to actually have enough data to actually say, you know, this is a better carrot than that. On what grounds do you make that statement? That's a very powerful statement. So we propose it should be backed up with some serious data. So step one, build a tool. Step two, figure out what quality is and nutrient density is. And then step three is to correlate it with management practices, environmental conditions, soil type, climate dynamics, microbiome, epigenetics, cultivars, intention of the grower, structured water, whatever it is. What are the environmental conditions, polycultures, working with the moon cycles? What actually correlates with what results? And so four years ago, we started, we built our first generation meter, a little hand handheld open source spectrometer. How to build one for yourself is on GitHub, if you know what that means. And 2018, we built our first lab in Ann Arbor. We tested crops, carrots, and spinach from across North America, mostly the sort of the northeast quadrant of North America, but we did, you know, across the country. Close to a thousand samples, grocery stores, farms, organic, non-organic. We were able to identify some variations that were quite dramatic. I think it was between 3x and 18x was the variation on the minerals. The best best carrot to the worst carrot in copper, the best spinach to the worst spinach in iron. And then it was, I think, 75 to 1 to 201 on the antioxidants and polyphenols, depending on which crop and which compound. So we identified significant variation there in the supply chain, and it did not correlate with organic or local or farm. It really did not. So then 2019, we added four more crops. We added lettuce and kale and cherry tomatoes and grapes and got a much more broad range around And we also worked with about 35 farms to document the environmental conditions, management practices, soil type, fertility program, all that stuff, and sending the soil, the crops, food in with the crops for assessment. We did that with about 35 farms in 2019, that would have been. And from that process, we were able to build the first calibrations for our meter so that now on those six crops, we have it so that you can flash a light and get a top quartile, bottom quartile, middle 50%. you know, that would be green, red, yellow, red, yellow, green, basically on antioxidants and polyphenols, which is not a definition of nutrient density, but it's a stand in for the time being. So we have proven that we can build a, a handheld consumer priced light flasher that can give you readings that are scientifically solid on nutrients compounds in crops. So yeah, then 2020, we went up to 20 crops and we added a whole bunch of other things, potatoes and beets and apples and blueberries and leeks and Swiss chard and squash and you know a number of other things oats and wheat we have now another lab at Chico State in California and our third lab is in partnership with Valorex in France and so we were able to get samples in 2020 from not just across the U.S. but across Europe as well and it worked with about 150 farms to do that and a much better app and data collection process and sampling protocols with the soil metric and management metrics so So to answer the question, I'm not aware of anybody else doing anything like this. I am aware of other groups. I think the Rockefellers are working with some people to do, I think it's called periodic table of food index, PTFI or something. There's various things that are out there. I think Teak Origin, you've had on a couple of times, they're doing some very interesting stuff in the supply chain and correlating to the averages. So there are people out there that are working on various pieces of this, but as far as really trying to tease out out the A, what is nutrient density, not what's the USDA average, but B, what is soil health and what causes it. It requires a very broad, collaborative, open, systemic process. It can't be a reductionist top-down, one lab, one research institute. It has to be a deep collaborative process. So we've been really lucky to help start Open Team here in North America, which is, you know, aligning a lot of the soil metric stuff and their PWA, their universal sign-in app. That's all basically stuff that we started with Real Food Campaign that's now able to take on much deeper systemic function through what Open Team's doing, et cetera. So yeah, not to sort of pat ourselves on the back, but I think we're on the cutting edge. Unfortunately, yeah, there are not too many. Well, the partnerships, we've got an amazing network of allies. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah. And you've been on it, obviously, for quite a while. We have two more questions of people that sent in before, and then we're going to get to your question, John and Tommy, obviously. But First, Eric, who basically asks the opposite question. So what about the bad stuff in food? How much of that is measurable and how much do we want to know?

SPEAKER_01 12:05

I've had different answers to that question over time, depending on how I want to spin the conversation. My answer for the longest time has been, it's basically impossible to do a really good job with toxins present. So it's only when the microbiome is functioning well in the soil, around the roots, in the roots, in the leaves, on the leaf surface. It's only when the plant's microbiome is flourishing that we should expect these levels of complexity and sophistication in nutrition, which we think is what nutrient density is. So-

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Which I think was your answer as well, when I asked about hydroponics, that there was a similar, like it's very difficult to cheat with nutrients.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

This is our hypothesis, right? We haven't proved it yet, but that's why we're actually trying to research, is to say our understanding is those things we call flavor, aroma, that correlate with health-giving attribute, correlate with pest and disease resistance, et cetera, are complex compounds that are basically most efficiently built in symbiosis by the plant with microbes. And so the more toxins that are present, likely the less sophisticated the nutritional value will be. So would it be nice to be able to test all those things as well? Yes. Those toxins are present generally at the degree of parts per billion and nutrients are generally present in the degree of parts per million. So before we can have a handheld sensor that can test toxins, by definition, we'll have to have one that tests nutrients. Would it be able to go straight to parts per billion? That would be awesome. But right now, we aren't at parts per million. So it's a process.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

I think it's a great answer, actually. You cannot measure everything. You need to look for proxies. And we're very much, a person we both know quite well, said, I think we're in the stone age of nutrient density measurements, et cetera. And we're just literally scratching the surface, which is very interesting. Anyway, Eric had another question about the tight linkage between between nutrient density and food as medicine. Like once we've established, you mentioned that before, like how are we gonna connect the specific nutrients? Are we able gonna connect the specific nutrients to certain health outcomes?

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Well, we don't even have a definition for nutrient density yet. And I think we just have to be humble about the fact that this is a process and these are the questions. And there's an amazing web of thoughtful people with different skill sets that are coalescing around this. The food is medicine work that's being done, at least here in North America, is very impressive. Working with the Obamacare, you know, there's major... I think you had Catherine Couch on.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah, just went out a few weeks ago with Sarah.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, so I mean... It's coming from different directions. It's coming from the regenerative soil health thing. It's coming from the consumers that want nutrition. It's coming from the health industry. Some of the incentives are there for people to be healthier, right? It's in the interest of the insurance company for people to be healthier. And so they have a reason to want to work with us. And there's all kinds of brilliant researchers at universities and everything else as well. So I do think that we're going to get to a point where we will be able to have some biomarkers that we can assess on ourselves. And we'll be able to overlay that with the nutrients and specific crops and really begin to dial it in very nicely for those who want to push that envelope.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah, I think the conclusion, I mean, one of the points with Catherine was, and they, just for our background, they delivered over a million medically tailored, which was the first time I heard that word, medically tailored organic meals to low-income people coming out of a hospital after treatment. And we really quite quickly, or still half an hour of an interview, but kind of to the and dense food is not going to be with the people that already have the wealth to buy organic or that are already going to the farmer's market. It's going to be with the people that obviously can't or don't at the moment for a variety of reasons. And there it's the biggest health impact is going to be because the gap is just much bigger from what they're eating currently, from what they could be eating if the system was there. Catherine shared some numbers. It's the cost of delivering a 12-week meal plan compared to people going back to the hospital after 10 weeks because they literally run out of food, money or medicine It was, I think, 1 to 10 or something. It was crazy, the potential. And they're still doing a lot of research into it. This is normal organic. This is not even measuring for nutrient density. This is not even going really deep. This is just a healthy meal. This is just California taking an interesting lead here. But John is asking a very good question, actually. If it doesn't correlate with organic local, what guidance can we use to buy the best food? I think a lot of people in the call might be wondering, okay, you just said organic doesn't. So what should I do? Or what should I focus at? when I'm buying food.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

This is the central point. I don't know. the labels don't correlate with, I mean, organic will probably correlate with less toxic. Sure. But plenty of local farmers use lots of chemicals until like crazy. So it has everything to do with the practices and the environmental conditions. And I would suggest the intention and the nature of the grower. I'm pretty certain that's going to be a big piece of it. I'm not sure how we'll tease that out, but it's your tongue is your best metric. And that's all we're trying to do is develop some rudimentary function of a tongue that we can flash a light at things and give people an idea of where things stand. The refractometer is a good tool right now. What is a reflectometer? A BRICS refractometer.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Just a simple BRICS meter you can write,

SPEAKER_01 17:56

yeah. Still the best empirical metric we've got right now, we think. but there's not really a lot of data correlating bricks of nutrient density. So we're working on it. That's the idea is that if we can complete this process, which I think we will in the next couple of years have some pretty good stuff, we're already moving right along, then we will have a metric that can be used by an empirical assessment tool that can be used by anybody in the supply chain to assess, but also we can feed that data right back to the growers to help them understand where their low-hanging fruit is. This is part of the thing that we're doing with open team is we're building this sort of digital coffee shop where each grower who's part of a process can see their results and their environmental conditions and management practices next to other growers results and management practices and environmental conditions and geographies and so we can facilitate a conversation amongst growers about what did you do and when did you do it and how did you get that result and we can see where we stand and they can see where they stand and so we're really trying to create this framework you know i think the instrument is nice and it will be great and quite powerful and the implications are amazing. But until we can support the growers in doing the job, what's going to happen is that the buyers are going to say to the farmers, what the hell, I don't want your stuff, but who else can I get? It's going to be uncomfortable. So as a farmer myself, we have to foundationally create the dynamic where people can be supported in the transition as well as possible. They need data for that.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

I remember the last interview we did with Greg of Teak Origin, they saw no difference in their measurements and their research in organic on the super market shelf versus non-organic on the fresh side. But when they went on the farm level, they saw an enormous difference. So somewhere there in, I think there was in strawberries and some other things, somewhere along from the farm door or gate to the supermarket, that stuff gets lost. And it was an enormous difference in terms of what they could see, what are healthy and useful nutrients and somewhere along the lines, along the supply chain, basically that got lost. So it sort of suggests freshness is very, very important.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Yeah. I'll just say that what we have found so far from our data, this is just a 2019 data. We'll have the 2020 data probably available formally in April, but we'll have the raw stuff next month sometime. What we found is that cover crops and minimal or no-till, that's the thing that shows most well from a nutrient level standpoint. Organic but not certified shows reasonably well, but not as well as those two. Organic is just right at the mean. Greenhouse grown is reasonably below and hydroponic is dramatically below. So that's the preliminary results we've got so that we can see broadly there are classes of management and label that correlate in that range.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

It sort of answers the question of, Tommy, where are the nutrients at? Can you say that regen is the answer? I mean, is the answer? I think it's too early, but there are some signs that it's at least practices or approaches that help soil health seem to show some signs, but we're very early in this process.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

We have every reason to think that soil health is the foundational metric causal in nutrient density. What is soil health? self. And it's not the practices, it's the process, as the biodynamic people would say. Just like you said about regenerative, it's a process. Regenerative is just a new word that came up in the last three years. I mean, we've had new words for the past 40 years to talk about this exact same thing. I call it biological ag. When I was young and impressionable, I went to the ACRES conferences 15 years ago, and that's what they called it was biological ag. And so that's what I've associated with. But it's all part and parcel of the same thing,

SPEAKER_00 21:25

I

SPEAKER_01 21:25

think.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah, we're going definitely up the hype cycle at the regenerative ag, et cetera. So I'm interested because it is going to attract a lot of other people. I'm also interested when we go down the hype cycle again and we get to the real part, which is building the whole thing up.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

It's starting to happen. We're starting to realize it's not a label, but it's a thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

And it's not so easy. You have to answer some very deep questions, which you alluded to in your intro as well. Like this goes way beyond changing a few, with all respect, it's extremely difficult, but a few management practices on your farm. This is a whole different level, but people need to start and a few steps at a time.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

few things done differently that aren't that hard will have a dramatically positive effect. Which is very hopeful, let's put it that way. It's really easy to do better because most things are being done very poorly.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Which is a good point. Like most agriculture you see, not to bash any farmers, is done, let's say, suboptimal in terms of biodiversity, biomass, life, and in terms of yields and results. Like somebody called it, I think it was the head of the Savory Hub in Norway or the Nordic saying, most farms or landscapes you see are underperforming landscapes. And there's an enormous potential. And we have to imagine or believe that even though we haven't seen it for the last 40 years, but there's a lot possible.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

We've got all kinds of documentation, all kinds of people globally that are doing amazing work. We've got every reason to think this is true and possible. And what we're starting to see is that the market is paying premiums for these kinds of nutritional metrics. So farmers are already getting 5%, 10% in the most rudimentary stuff that's being done right now. I just did an interview for, I think it was John Deere's magazine, Ploughed or something like that. I'm not sure what it's called. Which is ironic. It wasn't cloud, it's something else. It was like that. It was like, oh. But they got an article coming out in April about nutrient density and all the researchers and all the stuff that's been done at universities and the farmers that are getting margins right now, the market is already moving there. Quality, yeah. And so if we can support the growers with the basic practices and then the basic metrics, this is where money comes in as a very powerful tool.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Which actually is a nice bridge to Sude's question. Which segments of the market do you anticipate or maybe see already if it's already happening to be or will be early adapters are there certain crops certain ingredients certain like what parts of the market you see are first movers in terms of quality

SPEAKER_01 23:41

I think it's a web it's a web of all these different people and businesses and organizations and universities and crops and different parts of the country and the parts of the world it's like a mycelial mat you know we're all buzzing back and forth and talking and sharing and it's like it's coming up together so you can point out a company here or an organization there or an ingredient. But I feel like it's actually, it's a living ecosystem of knowledge and growth that's going on right now.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

And have you seen a change a lot? This is going to be a question also in the interview, but like the last few years, we talked almost two years ago and you've been in the space for quite a while, obviously as a grower and also with the Bionutrient Food Association. Have you seen that mycelium web, let's say getting stronger, more carbon is being pumped through the system and the connections are getting better and stronger and more combined? is happening or is it like still very slow burning and slowly building?

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah. I grew up on an organic farm in the eighties and when the word wasn't of organic wasn't out there yet. And my parents helped write some of the first standards back then. And that was an absolute, you know, grassroots counterculture movement that was very small and didn't have a lot of notoriety and watched organic come in. I mean, when I was young, we, I was taught that the universe people were bad and that there was nothing to benefit from dealing with the USDA, that they basically were, you know, there was no overlap potential, let's just say. And, you know, NRCS and organic coming in, and we've had the biodynamics, we've had permaculture come, we've had slow food, we've had any number of Western price, these sort of building social movements of things coalescing. And then, yeah, the natural foods product market space has gotten massive. There's a lot of money in it now. And so I see regenerative like it's been people who can come from that like scale space and say, we got to have a way to pitch this, market this, get some buzz going. NRCS is doing amazing things.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

What is the NRCS just for people that are not in the US?

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Natural Resources Conservation Service. They're a wing of the USDA, sort of the new federal agriculture service.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

It seems to be moving, but that's just from, I mean, I live in a bubble, obviously. So it seems to be, I mean, since we started the podcast, which is four and a half years ago, since I started looking at the space, which is 10 years ago now, wow, it's been one hell of a ride, I can say. And especially the last year, it's really grown.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

And part of it is this whole thing with the climate too. I mean, I think that there's beginning to be a real serious understanding that we're out of whack.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

I get a deck, I think, every other week of somebody setting up like soil carbon marketplace now. So I can actually compare because I have so many, but it's definitely showing and all people not from the ag space, which is interesting and dangerous at the same time, because I would always point them, please spend a lot of time on farms first. But it's interesting that people from outside the food and ag space are getting enthusiastic and starting to get in. And we need that energy, I think, and we need that.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

And I would say that, you know, foundationally, they're focusing on the carbon, which is not the place to focus. But whatever, that's part of the learning process.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

We just released an episode with Walter Yeh on please stop focusing on carbon and focus on the water cycle. And it's, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

But I mean, the carbon cycle, the water cycle, yes, they are sort of parts of the scientific framework, but the question really from a cultural standpoint is what's going to cause the money to flow. And I put my chips on nutrient density. I'm pretty sure when it all settles out that the inherent quality of the food is going to be the economic lever that's going to have the most capacity to facilitate facilitate shift. In the pockets of farmers that are doing well. As you make many more hundreds of dollars per acre or thousands of dollars per acre on the quality of the crop than you do on the carbon, it's got to be at least an order of magnitude more. And certainly you can do ecosystem services and do all that kind of stuff. But I mean, add all those payments up and I'll bet you that when plants are healthier, your cost of production is lower, your margins are better. So I think we're making serious progress. In my experience, focusing on nutrient density, talking about it 10 years ago, the concept that there was a variation of nutrients in food was not something that was accepted. Simply not accepted. Carrot was a carrot. And at this point in time, a lot of people I consider to be thoughtful are starting to say, you know, there's something to this nutrient density as a piece of the puzzle. Let's see how big that puzzle is.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Oh, that piece is in the

SPEAKER_01 28:12

puzzle.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Let's try to get through a few more questions. I see one here on biophoton.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Yeah, she has to leave, but she had a question about biophoton. Yes, Wilhelmina, I think absolutely. Pop's work and All that, I've just been in touch with some people that have taken over his lab or are working with his people now that he's passed. I started out thinking that it was the coherence, the vibrational coherence of the food that we're looking for and have strategically decided to focus on the physical substance, quote unquote, the minerals and compounds, because that's where we're operating from in 3D 21st century mass culture. We are not really comfortable with the topic of vibration and coherence and consciousness and things like that. A lot of farmers are very comfortable with that.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

And a lot of farmers aren't, but they're

SPEAKER_01 29:00

great. You're talking about getting a concept out there like regenerative, getting a concept like nutrient density out there. If we say nutrient density means photonic coherence, people are going to write us off. If we say nutrient density means 3x more nutrients, they're going to be intrigued. Of course, yeah. So if it doesn't correlate with biophotonics, we have not succeeded. But yes, in all those things.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

A question on the seat. Dina, is it possible that the quality if the seed matters as well?

SPEAKER_01 29:26

I would say it's as much as 50% of the potential, maybe just 30%. I would say it is the largest single piece where the greatest potential for improvement is. Like the biggest potential that is lost is already lost when you buy the seed, if it's a poor quality. So I think it's an absolutely massive piece of the puzzle and it's quite easy to improve seed quality. All you need to do is grow plants in a healthy environment and save their seed. Ideally, in the environment where you're going to be growing them next year because they will evolve to that microbiome. It's not just the seed of the plant, it's the seed of its microbiome. And where was that from? What was the health of the mother plant, but what was the microbiome of the mother plant? And does that seed have the colostrum on it it needs that is appropriate for that ecosystem to really establish that symbiotic function? We need a lot more local seed companies. Well, locally, regionally, yeah, we have to take ownership of that. And of course, foundation different cultivars have different inherent potentials. And a lot of what's being sold right now as seed hybrids and things like that are inherently weak.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Next one, back on polycropping and crop diversity. Do you see that as an important viable yet or not yet or not at all? Foundational. Foundational.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

The bar is low right now, so you can do a much better job than is averagely being done on a monoculture.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Let's say the next five years, maybe the bar is very low. And then as a grower, you probably have to start paying attention because others are going to catch up. But if you're jumping on this train now or have been for a while, you're probably going to be coming out ahead.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

And as John Kemp has shown, you can do a really good job with monocultures. If you know how to manage it and dial it in, you can do a really good job. But I think still polycultures have the upper hand.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Biodynamic, any difference with organic versus the rest so far in the data? Is asking Cefarino.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Didn't get enough biodynamic samples in. It was like 20 or 30 samples in 2019. We got a bunch more in 2020. It's been interesting with the reports and the lab people. And sometimes like biodynamics is like way high. Then sometimes biodynamics is low. And I'm like, basically it comes down to the fact we didn't have enough data points. So

SPEAKER_00 31:33

we need more. Yeah. Meat, any animal protein you have looked at or will be looking at?

SPEAKER_01 31:38

We are a charitable organization. We run on donations. So make some donations people, if you want this. Literally on charitable donations. Three labs. I'm not sure how many thousand samples of crops and soil at this point. Software, data platforms, etc. We simply have not gotten to animal products yet. I absolutely want to, but it costs money. Because we're keeping all of the data in the commons, there's no investors who are supporting our work. They can't because we aren't offering any IP. We'd love to do animal products and if anybody knows anybody that wants to be serious about engaging that conversation, please do reach out.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

We might have some people. Anyway, for everyone, make some donations if you can. Right. If you know people who can do strategic things, that's very interesting. Get in touch with them. If you can't, get in touch with me and I will get you in touch with them. The supply and distribution chain. So in terms of process, I mean, I think the answer is going to be the same. We don't have money yet to do that. But let's say when it leaves the farm until the shelf, whatever shelf or until the plate, have you seen there a Are you planning things? As we saw with Greg, basically, Greg Schumacher of Tico Origin, the difference of farm gate to supermarket shelves was enormous. So what's the story with freshness, processing, et cetera?

SPEAKER_01 32:55

The way we've been designing our work so far is that we will take the crop that the consumer has access to and test it. And so we haven't done the complete breakdown over time. I want to say about what Greg had done in the Tico Origin interview that a lot of what they started with was junk. the raw crop was junk. And then so the fact that it fell apart in five days or seven days is not surprising. I do think that's true. Most food, as we've been able to see, I mean, the bell curves on the data points are that the vast majority of the crops are at about the 15th to 20th percentile of the variation percent. So if copper in carrots goes from 10 to 100, or we'll say from one to 100 parts per million, it wouldn't be that high. We'll say iron in spinach. If iron in spinach goes from five to a hundred parts per million, then what we found is that the vast majority of the spinach samples, probably like 70% of the spinach samples are between let's say 10 and 20. So range goes from 5 to 100. The vast majority of the samples are between 10 and 20. That's where the peak of the bell curve is. That's what the USDA average says is the level of iron in spinach.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

That's what the models

SPEAKER_01 34:13

say. Our data says that most spinach has this much iron in it, but the potential is this. And that's what we're doing is saying, what's the potential? No one else seems to be looking at that critical point. And so what TECA Origin is looking at is stuff that is that. In the middle. They're keeping that stuff from the farm gate And then, yes, it does break down and dissipate over the five days or nine days it takes to get to the shelf. I will say they're not looking at elements. So things like copper and zinc are not going to dissipate like he was talking about. He was talking about things like vitamin C, right? He was talking about compounds and that those really start at low levels and then break down easily when the plant's not coherent. So the supply chain is, I mean... We're planning to look at it. I think the most important point is that if it starts out junk, it's going to be junk pretty soon afterwards. If it starts out good, the shelf life in our experiences, it maintains much more. Plus it has a potential. Much nutrients and you're going to have 12 times as much in two weeks because the other one just crashed.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

I'm going to be selective with some of the questions because we simply have too many as always. Somebody asked how we're going to make sure people are not going to selectively breed or over supplement their soils to get to commercially sellable nutrients. Like what's the cheatability I think is if I can summarize the question.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

I hope people will be breeding plants and will be selecting types of microbes and will be sourcing different amendments to maximize nutrient levels in crops. That's the whole point is that people can use their creativity to accomplish this objective. The foundational thing behind all that is the only way to get high levels of these sophisticated compounds, antioxidants, polyphenols, terpenoids, alkaloids, there's all these fancy name sounding compounds. The only way to get them is when the microbiome is flourishing. So anything you do that's going to not support the microbiome will show up poorly. So you want to put lots of synthetic nutrients in. If you do it in a way to support the microbiome, then you're not going to get those compounds. It's an important point. I'm not sure if I'm conveying it

SPEAKER_00 36:17

sufficiently. No, no, I get it. And I see Yen's question is already answered by Dina. So that's great. If you want to know more, definitely check out this whole food web. Erin is asking an interesting question about water. What about... Ionized, structured, vitalized. What's your thought on water? I think we can do a whole podcast on that, but I'm going to ask you to share your short thoughts on water.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

That the structure, nature, vibration of the water is extraordinarily important. And that's going to be one of those things that I think our data is going to show. And we're going to have the space to tease it out. Let's create a scientific framework where we can document all the environmental conditions and then monitor the results and see what shows up. I think there's something there.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Yeah. And

SPEAKER_01 37:15

I don't know what.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

We don't know, but there's something there. And Beck is asking a question on the inequality side. So how about the potential equality issues around monetizing nutrient density and how this might increase the health outcomes gap of those in the highest and the lowest socioeconomic brackets? How do we make sure everyone has access to this stuff? especially ones that don't know. Through

SPEAKER_01 37:38

a process of open transparency and empowerment, we have allies across the culture. We've got people that are doing work in schools, people that are doing work. I mean, here in the US, we've got a bunch of programs where people get effectively free food. Once we can align the incentives and understand that the cost of healthcare correlates directly with how healthy people are and the quality of food correlates with that, if we have even the most rudimentarily progressive governmental structures, a lot of the people who don't have enough money to get food that are getting a lot of their food from the government structures, whether it's schools or however it works, they can be a massive leverage player in this process. So our thought is if there's a race to the top, if farmers are basically getting paid premiums for doing a better job, then where the bottom is now is below where it's going to be in two years and below where it's going to be in five years. So The thought is if we have an inspiration for farmers to do a better job, then whatever's in the supply chain is going to be better regardless. But yeah, I mean, if I had whatever, I mean, a trillion dollars, maybe I could guarantee anything like that. But these are things that we don't all have control of. All we can do is create a structure to empower as much as possible and trust that the broader cultural framework is going to support it.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Build

SPEAKER_01 38:56

a movement.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Yeah, it's a very, very tricky question. Very important question, but very tricky. Two more questions. And then the last one, which I would like to ask you on a vision question, which I saw somebody asking Quick question from Eric. How much does it cost to set up a lab like that and run it? Because I think running it is more crucial than setting it up.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

I mean, they're pretty basic. I mean, we're actually getting a lot of metrics. I think it's$25,000 or$30,000 in hardware. It's not much. And then running it for, let's

SPEAKER_00 39:23

say, a year? How much do people cost? How much does your staff cost? How many people do you need to run it?

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Well, how many samples are you running? The lab in France started off with one person this year. They got it operational. They ran it. a few hundred samples. And then we're going to, they'll probably staff up as we get more samples

SPEAKER_00 39:41

coming through. So let's say relatively cheap, but still it needs to be financed.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Six figures. Yeah, I think$100,000 or 100,000 euros should be sufficient to get something basically operational.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

And do

SPEAKER_01 39:53

you envision

SPEAKER_00 39:54

these labs, like many of these labs to be regional and local?

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Global objective and more sophisticated than they are now, but we have to start somewhere. Yeah, the idea is that this is a global collaboration. So we don't have anybody in Africa Right now, nobody in Asia, nobody in South America.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

That is a shout out to get that done.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Yeah. Anybody who wants to partner with us, we're very... The whole idea is that we're in this together and none of us can do it by ourselves. So reach out if you are interested. Dan at Bionutrient.org.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

I would definitely share that. Be ready for some emails. Any research on the heirloom boom that we have seen and actually still see on the seeds, et cetera. Have you seen any signs in the data so far that those varieties or those seeds have been better or worse or not?

SPEAKER_01 40:38

We can easily say that the variety has a very significant impact. The variety of the crop has a significant impact on its inherent capacity to become more or less nutritious. I think, again, the microbiome piece is a key component of this seed. You can buy two purple brandywine tomato seeds from different growers that will behave much differently, not just because of the microbiome, actually, because of the epigenetics as well. But yeah, I would say on average, it looks like the seeds that were selected for flavor have a better capacity to be nutritious than the ones that are selected for processing capacity.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

I think it's a great one. And I want to end with the last one and be conscious of everyone's time. Wallace Green asked a great question. I'm just going to read it out loud and I'm going to ask Dan to create a vision. So imagine the year is 2030. For the past 10 years, big ag producers embraced the core principles and practices and approaches, I would add to that, of regenerative agriculture. The fields of monoculture look dramatically different, as does the farm. What does the fields look like? The farm. Are these growers selling to the customers or has that changed too? So bring us to 2030. What do you envision a typical farm or farms, fields, et cetera, we now look at? How will they look and where would they sell to?

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Are we operating with the assumption that they're all going to be big farms?

SPEAKER_00 41:57

No, also small. I would add small farms to that. I'm taking the quote a bit and changing it a bit, but how would the agriculture landscape look like 2030 if we have embraced a lot of this quality focus and taste focus?

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah, I would unpause at the first half of that question, which has to do with Big Egg and just leave that off the question, but what could things look like in 10 years? Well, I think one of my pet sort of projects or visions or things is I say, occupy the land. I don't think we want to have multi-thousand acre farms, multi-hundred acre farms. I think we want to have humans in relationship with land and culture. I think that's where we belong. I think we're foundationally animals and we belong in nature. And all this talk about how there's going to be 70% of the world's population living in cities in 2050 or whatever. I mean, people have gotten to see over the past year how vulnerable those ecosystems are. And what I want to see and what I'm going to be putting some serious energy into is that process of training and land access, land tenure. I think we can do a better job in polycultures at human scale from a nutritional standpoint and from a dollars per acre standpoint, as is shown by some smallholders globally, even still. And I think cultural revitalization is the order of the day. I think that there's this thing called the Jeffersonian ethic, which take Jefferson out of it if you want to, but the concept is basically that when people are independent and self-sufficient on land, they make different decisions than when they're cogs in the corporate wheel. And so for me, the regenerative thing is like, okay, that's one piece of the puzzle, but it's the broad sociocultural revitalization that I'm looking for. And I see the opportunity to be regreening significant parts of the planet that are brown. And a lot of people have moved into the cities because the land is not in a place where it can support them. But we've got models globally of how those lands could be much more fecund than they are now.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

I think it's a perfect answer too. And I want to thank you all so much for your questions. First of all, thank Dan, obviously, for coming on. There are some questions we didn't get to. I will try in the show notes to point to some places where you can find me more information and as said get in touch with Dan if you want to thank you all for being active in the chat for coming on early late and the middle of the day whatever you were for more information check the website investinginregenerativeagriculture.com podcast webinars all of that and obviously go to the Bionutrient Food Association website and follow the soil and nutrition conference as it's starting next week already with one webinar and it will continue to do so for the next months until September it's So thank you all and see you next time. Thank you all. Find out more on investinginregenerativeagriculture.com slash course. If you found the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast valuable, there are a few simple ways you can use to support it. Number one, rate and review the podcast on your podcast app. That's the best way for other listeners to find the podcast and it only takes a few seconds. Number two, share this podcast on social media or email it to your friends and colleagues. Number three, if this podcast has been of value to you and if you have the means, please join my membership community to help grow this platform and allow me to take it further. You can find all the details on come Thank you so much and see you at the next podcast.