120 Phil Taylor and Brandon Welch, the first investments of Mad Ag's $10 million fund

Phil Taylor and Brandon Welch of the Perennial Fund and MAD Agriculture just closed their fund of $10 million and the first four loans are out of the door, with many more to come. They share  what they have learned about skin-in-the-game transition finance and partnering with farmers.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

A long overdue check-in interview with Phil Taylor and Brandon Welsh of the Perennial Fund and Metagriculture. They just closed their fund in February on$10 million. And the first four loans are out of the door already with many more to come. So what have they learned about skin in the game transition finance and partnering with farmers? Welcome to another episode of investors, big and small, and consumers start paying much more attention to the dirt slash soil underneath our feet. In March last year, we launched our membership community to make it easy for fans to support our work. And so many of you have joined as a member. We've launched different types of benefits, exclusive content, Q&A webinars with former guests, Ask Me Anything sessions, plus so much more to come in the future. For more information on the different tiers, benefits, and how to become a member, check gumroad.com slash investingbridgeandegg or find the link below. Thank you. Welcome to another episode today with Brendan and Phil of Mad Agriculture and the Perennial Fund. We interviewed them once before. Actually, Brendan, I interviewed a while back as well in 2019. We had them as one of the participants in the series of Transition Finance for Farmers with Benedict, I think a year ago or probably a bit later, like 10 months ago or something. And we, of course, had a webinar with you very recently and also Q&A webinar, I think a year ago. So you have been on the show multiple times, the Perennial Fund, Perennial Fund has been in transition, funny enough, multiple times as well. But I was really happy to sit down with you today and have a check in to see where you're at. We're in April 2021 to get a bit of a download. If you're interested in the Perennial Fund in general, the background, et cetera, I will refer to all the previous episodes in the show notes below. But I'm very happy to check in with you, Brandon and Phil, to see where you're at, what's happening, what have you're learning, what has been surprising to you and much more.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Good to be here. Yeah, we always love being on the podcast and conversation and are happy to be here and fill you in with what's going on. Likewise, it's been great to be on the journey together.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

And so if you had to give a short update of what is happening at the moment, what's April been like for the perennial fund, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Really getting the work done. We closed the fund in February at$10 million from 43 investors.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Congrats there with that.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Thank you so much. Yeah, spanning seven countries. We've got 97 farmers in the pipeline. We're talking with about 20 to 25 of them and we've just made our first four loans over the last couple of months. So now that we are actually drafting documents, starting to distribute loans out, we're learning quite a bit, testing a lot of assumptions, making sure that we're still being concrete in the mission and vision and where we're headed, but kind of being plastic and flexible in terms of how we get there and making sure that we're creating something truly useful for those that we're here to serve, which are farmers transitioning to regenerative organic. So there's a lot of details I'm sure we could dig into, like talk about the research project and documentary film crew we're using to help document the transition of many of these farmers, nuances on the loans. We can really take it any direction they'd like.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

I would like to unpack all of those. Let's start with the nuances on loans. Maybe one of those four or four, if they're different, like the loans that went out already. just to describe what you're exactly funding now and maybe also how that's different from when we talked 10 months ago or if it's different at all, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Yeah, so what we're exactly funding on all the farms are production costs. So basically providing all of the liquidity that farmers need and the cash that they need up front to plant their crop, to manage it throughout the season, and then to harvest it at the end of the year. So these are costs like rent, crop insurance, seeds, diesel, labor, unexpected tractor breakdowns, anything they need throughout the year, because there's a massive cash flow gap between when a seed goes in the ground, all of the cash that a farmer is constantly spending every single day, And then that harvest, when they actually have the crop in hand, and that one revenue that comes in on the back end of the year, where they then have the cash to pay back kind of this big credit card that we're essentially giving them. So we're funding all the production costs on these farms on transitional acres, organic acres, and conventional acres that are soon to transition to organic. That's a little different than we initially outlined. Initially, we were just gunning for funding the transitional ground. We found I found it very cumbersome to engage with many of these community bankers who are very unfamiliar in partnering with another financial institution and coming up alongside another financing partner. They always want to be on first. That's how they say it. We want to have first rights to all the collateral. And as long as you're coming in second, we'd be okay. They'd be okay with us coming in behind them. But in many instances, we haven't found anyone willing to appropriately share risk. and actually truly partner to help these farmers transition their full farm to 100% organic. So on these loans specifically, some of the nuances that we've changed from the outset is that We initially intended to do a straight revenue share through both transition and organic years, where now we've had some pushback from initial farmers that the revenue share is great in kind of its ethic and in the goal of kind of shaping debt in the form of equity by sharing upside and downside. But at the end of the day, we found that many of these farmers just want to know what their payment is, and they just want to have a payment schedule of, you know, I'm going to pay,$1 in 2021,$1.50 in 2022, and they have it laid out in terms of what they need to know and what they need to shoot for. And a revenue share is a little too nebulous. Maybe that was our ability to educate them on a revenue share, communicate that.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

So all four loans are not a revenue share now, or some are, some are not. Because you would imagine farmers would be interested to share the risk and not be on the riskier side of the equation when it comes to a straight loan. But you're seeing that that not the case, or at least the farmers you talk to and end up working with.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

So three of the loans are revenue share. One is a straight APR.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

What's an APR for anybody now?

SPEAKER_01 7:05

7%. No,

SPEAKER_00 7:06

I mean, as a term.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Annual percentage rate.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Okay. So that's interesting. One in which still is 75% is a revenue share. That's still interesting as a hit rate, basically.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

It's been interesting just kind of, I mean, Brandon's been testing a ton of different models around sort of the loan structure. And it reminds me a little bit of like what a leading brand might do with consumers, right? Like there's sort of a market standard for what people want to eat and expect from a brand. But the brand is also simultaneously educating the consumer on what they should be purchasing. And so there's sort of this interesting tension between offering what is comfortable by the consumer, so to speak, or the borrower, and then also kind of pressing the limit and saying, this is actually, we actually think this is better for you, shared risk for shared reward. And then it's sometimes can be too unfamiliar. So the borrower is like, yeah, I don't want that. So it's an interesting kind of tension that we're finding pushing the innovation and then doing what is sort of more normal.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah, because these first three loans that we did on a revenue share, farmers were so bought in and values aligned and just truly wanted to work within that act that they were willing to make it work, even though there was some pushback. So now we've been redrafting some loan documents, setting up all the different types of nuances in those docs to actually account for standard APR. And we were able to do our last loan, the fourth one, with a straight APR. And I would say the next five or six or so farms that are in the queue that were set to draft docs and fund within the next three weeks, four weeks or so, those are all standard APRs.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

And is there any kind of flexibility built into that? Any kind of risk sharing? How did you still brought some of the values of the revenue share into a relatively straight loan, basically? Or were you able to do something there?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Yeah, so what we were able to integrate was a minimum targeted payment. So based on how these farmers have previously transitioned ground, we have numbers on what their expected yield and market price that they're able to receive is. From there, we're able to back out what their expected revenues are on transitional acre. We can see their expected loss, and then we're able to work with them to co-agree on a minimum targeted payment on their future transitional ground to ensure that they're not going to sink the and go bankrupt during transition, but they're actually going to be able to make this payment schedule. So what we're doing is the schedule outlines the minimum targeted payments. They can pay more if they'd like. We then take that balance over the top, which is usually less than the principal we're outlaying. We roll that over year over year as they're transitioning that ground until they hit certified organic. And once they hit certified organic, they essentially pay that down over the next three to five years because we convert it into just an amortized term note so that we can then spread out that schedule over time. And then we can continue funding them on their regular operating needs once they've hit certified organic. That way we can keep working with them, building our relationship. And many of these farmers are continuing to expand their operation, take on more conventional ground and transition it. So we'll just keep doubling down on our partnerships and relationships with our on the ground farmers that are doing the work.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

you know, once you lift the hood on a farm and understand the vision of the farm, there's always sort of need to purchase land or there's need to build infrastructure around storage, or maybe they want to value add and vertically integrate and they have a vision for a mill and that all requires catalytic financing. And so that's an area where I think MAD-Ed will grow into. And we'll also grow into finding partners. We've been working with Iroquois Valley on several different opportunities and they're just a fantastic outfit. And so there are some mission aligned finance out there in the region space where we can even de-risk these opportunities by kind of stacking, you know, more diversified capital stack in the future. We're not, we're just sort of visioning about that, but the need is extremely high in the region movement to have financing that serves many different needs. And so we're sticking to production costs, but in the future, that's an area where I think we

SPEAKER_01 11:49

can expand to. And to build on your last question, in addition to the minimum targeted payment, the other bit of flexibility that is pretty core to the loan is the ability for a farmer to defer a payment if they need to. So if they end up getting wiped out by hail, if the market tanks and they're not covered, let's say they don't have the right insurance mechanism to cover it, they can kick out that payment an additional year and they have up to two opportunities to do that throughout the life of the loan. So many of our loans are structured on a five to eight year term from where we commit to outlaying capital and then having them pay back the loan in full. During that time period, there's a deferral so they can have flexibility on that payment amount. There's no additional penalty for that. Just like if they were to pay early, there's also no additional penalty. It'd be great if our loans could be paid off early. That's cash back into the fund, and we can then revolve that, outlay it to additional farmers to transition ground. So minimum targeted payment, deferral, and our other services that we're also trying to couple into the loan as well are pretty, I think, just values a and good kind of premiums that are being gifted to these farmers.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Like what are the services that we always talked obviously about the market access and the community, the community of peers and the community of like technology support or let's say transition support. What have you seen, what has been requested the most, what have been most popular of the whole suite of tools you can offer to farmers and partners you're working with?

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Great question. You know, Mad Agriculture as an organization aspires to really empower farmers that that are hungry to change and aspire to regenerative ag and organic agriculture. And we support that with a mixture of land and business planning, capital and markets. And so, you know, the perennial fund, it's easy to think about it as a financing vehicle, which it is.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

There's sort of the word fund in the name. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Yeah, exactly. But it brings exactly. It's no surprise that people think about financing when there's a fund. But the underlying kind of support we offer is in this kind of land and business planning as well as markets. And, you know, we were talking about it earlier where, you know, some farmers, you know, need land and business planning. Some farmers need capital. Some farmers need Facebook account. But every farmer needs a market. And so the market request is really high with the farmers. And to be quite frank, the ambition and progress to decommodify the food system where we move out of corn, beans and alfalfa and other big monoculture staple crops is such a lofty goal, which we hold on to. ardently too. And so we're just sort of putting cracks in the system right now. You know, right now we're, we're trialing 10 acres over here, 50 acres over here of crops that may have maybe never even grown there. I mean, they grew there a hundred years ago or maybe, you know, there's just an emerging market for them. And so we're in the midst of working based on a farm by farm basis to really understand what that farm ecosystem and that rotation is. can be and for us the regeneration of the land and human well-being is wrapped up and that regeneration foremost is driven by diversity and so the more that we can diversify the farm ecosystem in terms of not only the wild spaces that it has and can nurture but also the cultivated spaces

SPEAKER_00 15:11

and the people on it

SPEAKER_02 15:13

yeah and then the people on it obviously yeah exactly so we use our markets to do that work regeneration is severely limited by the lack of diversity in market And so that's kind of the biggest request that we get from farmers. But we're also sort of limited in what we can do. We're building out our team right now. We're hiring hopefully two people in the next two months to really build that out. And we're basically hiring two different roles, one that kind of stewards the social capital of the movement, builds alliances with brands and can inspire economic transactions, long term partnerships with farmers. And then there's a second person we're hiring that's going to be more focused on sort of the supply chain. building, right? Like the person getting the deal done, the contracting, the delivery, the QA, QC, and all of that work. So markets is a big thing. We also support land and business planning. We're just growing in that realm. Farm ecosystems are extraordinarily complex. They might all look the same from the road, but they're very different when you get to know the family, the story, the lineage. And there are commonalities like markets, but in terms of where that farm is going, who stewards the farm, their attention to place and all of that ends up being quite complicated. So we have a team that can help farmers sort through that complexity and chaos and really figure out where to put their best foot forward and support with developing a grazing plan, developing a new rotation, all those kinds of the guts of the farm operation. So those are the areas where we help. The last thing I'll mention before I stop my rant is just the community building. There's just an extraordinary amount of power in being part of a movement together. That's what gives us meaning and purpose. That's why I love connecting with you, Kun. We're living together for something larger than ourselves. It gives us purpose and color, as Benedict would say, color to our face. I think that that's what these farmers also long for. It's a fundamental human need. And so most of the farmers we work with are isolated geographically, ideologically, and by connecting them to that broader movement through other farmers that we work with, they kind of get a sense of like, wow, we can do this, you know, and it enlivens them. And so a lot of our work at its core is about enlivening the spirit and empowering the kind of like untapped into agency of the person. Like, how do you get someone to come alive and work? from that place of belonging. And, you know, I think we're trying our hardest to sort of develop the right human approach to do that, because that's really where all change happens. It changes in the transformation of every individual from the inside out. And that's the most durable change. It's grassroots. It's farmer to farmer. It's community based. And that's built into the perennial fund. I mean, our farmers gather, they work, they help each other already. That's happening.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Do you have an example of that?

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yeah, we have an example of where, you know, One farmer who just received the loan is immediately asking us, where do I find feed for my animals? I'm looking for high quality rye. And then, you know, email Jared, who's our farm lending lead. And Jared, within like a couple of minutes, had been on phone with another farmer. They're connecting and now they're in an economic relationship, a friendship relationship. And so that's already kind of moving and grooving within moments.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

With four farmers in the program, Matt, just to, yeah, which is very, very, like the chances that you find the supply for the demand or the other way around with four farmers is fascinatingly low, but still it happens.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Yeah. So, yeah, I would just say I would wrap up all that by saying that, you know, we need a system level revolution and part of what Madag tries to hold, bring holistically are what we think are the most important kind of nodal points to change the system, right? Like, you can't think about financing without thinking about how you're going to pay it back, which is markets. You can't think about developing a market if you don't think about the farm ecosystem, what the land needs in terms of a crop rotation. You can't think about the crop rotation if you don't think about the long-term balance sheet, the business plan. And those are the, if you can't think about those dynamically, you end up getting kind of stuck. And so Madag, you know, holds that ecosystem of offerings while also pointing to all the other good stuff out there. We're not best suited to always help with something. So that's why we point to a partner. It's like, we can't buy land with a farmer. And so we'll put in the Iroquois Valley. So there's a you know that kind of platform ecosystem approach invites just an extraordinary amount of partnership right and movement building because we're just constantly pushing opportunities to everyone else that shares our values which is part of the beauty of it

SPEAKER_00 19:58

and I think many people I'm speaking for myself but also I'm sure for others have listened to previous episodes with you and have seen you in many places and read and now seen the 10 million closing what would you say to them, for others that have been inspired in other places around, because all of my vision is, or my hope is that we'll see many, many, many different perennial funds between brackets in the local context, in Eastern Germany, in Northern Netherlands, in India, in many different regions. Like we need a holistic approach to transition agriculture almost everywhere, probably everywhere. What would be your advice to them? Like if this is such an enormous task to set up something like that, what would be first step, second step, where would you start wanting to say okay we need something like madag and perennial fund also in france okay and then where do i even begin

SPEAKER_01 20:50

it's a good question i think a pretty simple piece of advice that would work is

SPEAKER_00 20:56

don't start

SPEAKER_01 21:00

don't start one step two to find farmers to build authentic relationships with them and to listen to them to listen to what are their problems? What are they struggling with? And just hear out, where are their frustration? Where's their confusion? Where's the friction that they're rubbing up against that it's too large for them to somehow surmount and then allow them to level up their farm? I mean, that's where we started was

SPEAKER_00 21:28

with the pioneering ones, right? Very deliberately, you're partnering with the ones that are the front runners of this movement to double down on them and help them sort of pull and push in all different ways the rest. But you're not going for the ones that are thinking, ah, maybe I should go regen or should do something on different cover crops. No, you're doubling down on the pioneers. Would it be your advice elsewhere?

SPEAKER_01 21:49

I don't know. I think in the United States, that's probably the case if we're going to kind of follow the curve of diffusion. And, you know, right now it's a hypothesis. I mean, it's a theory that if we double down on these pioneering, the leading farmers, these folks that are setting an example that are inspirational, that they mentally have made the switch, they're practicing agriculture in a way that's building soil, but now they just need the tools to keep doing it at a larger scale or to do it better. That's our theory here in the U.S. Whether that is the case in the Netherlands or Australia or India, I don't know. And that's why my advice would be for people to talk with as many farmers as possible, to listen to them. And I think naturally through that process, they're going to start kind of sifting and filtering through the noise. They'll see the signals and the patterns that will emerge, and they'll start seeing who the leaders are in their own context. Because the leaders here in, let's say, Iowa or Colorado, probably look very different than leaders in South Africa or the Middle East or anywhere else globally. So listening is the most important piece, kind of using design thinking, empathy interviews, just being really present to hearing their problems. Because a piece of advice that I had gotten really early on from one of my first mentors, Rick Adcock, was the world is awash with money. Money is everywhere. Investors want to invest. They want to put their money to work. The problem is finding good projects and good deals. So as long as you can find a place for people to put their money, you won't have a problem raising it. So that's where our full focus was just listening to the pain points.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

So how easy was it to raising? No, I'm joking, but it's something that comes back very often in the podcast, but it's the issue doesn't seem to be the money. The issue seems to be where to put it. Good places, bankable things. I mean, there's so many hoops you have to jump through and you know that very, very well, but it's, yeah, you raised more than you planned

SPEAKER_02 23:45

basically. Yeah, I think that we did. I think that came apart too of just i mean brandon in particular i'm a generalist and brandon's ability to focus and really dial in on a specific product that solved a very big need i think really helped us you know you sort of want to change the whole system at once but you can't you've got to really think about what intervention makes the best sense for the need and the problem that we're sensing and hearing about and how does that reconcile against our gifts and passion for the world right like that's from a human perspective I was taught early on like my mission in life is to discover who I am and my gifts and use them in service to humanity in the earth like it's that simple why I'm here and so how do you go about that inward journey of the self to go where am I best poised to serve and you know Brandon joined Mad Ag as a carbon economist with visions of saving the world by in climate change with that but it was like well that's farmers it turns out actually don't really that's not one of the last things on their list is getting paid for carbon. Like they're like, Oh, that's gravy. But like, how is that going to happen? You know, I've got a lot of weird nefarious actors out there. Don't know how to manage it. And so it's like a tier three sort of importance thing, carbon payments, especially at$15 a ton. And so what the world ends up doing, we end up like hyper cerebral and creating all of these interesting solutions in our mind. And then we try to apply it to the sector of farming and the farmer doesn't even want it. That's kind of the carbon market thing in a nutshell, just to be really blunt. No one's listening to the farmer's needs. Does a farmer want to make money? Of course. Do they need markets? Yes. Do they want to get paid for the full value of their farm? Yes. That's best done in the food that people purchase. We undervalue food. I don't know. I just think that empathy is everything. Empathy is everything in a relationship, a human relationship, in a farmer relationship, in the relationship to the land, like the earth is suffering and we don't even know what it wants to be right like we don't have our empathy muscle is so underdeveloped as a human species and that's really where it starts and I think that's where the perennial fund and all of our work in Madag ultimately stems from and it's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Sounds like really really good advice and it's interesting I'm very curious so definitely get in touch anybody who is building something similar along those lines around the world because I'm fascinated about the whole transition and not just transition finance, but everything that's needed for the transition, which often turns out to be not necessarily finance only, definitely not finance only. So anything of those four farmers or the next ones that are coming up that are particularly exciting stories you mentioned, you're going to actually follow them even through visual stories, like what's happening there? Why are you doing that? And then, of course, let's talk a bit about the research project before we wrap up.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Yeah, we believe that organic and regenerative agriculture creates ecological and financial wealth, right? It improves the land, improves the farmer, improves the community.

UNKNOWN 26:54

It has win-win.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

across the system as it transforms the way we live. And we feel like we need to document that, right? I mean, and we're to document it in two ways. And that documentation will be used for many different purposes. And the documentation is sort of broken into a more qualitative story-based cultural revolution. We have two documentary filmmakers working on that. We can talk about that. And then the quantitative piece is being done, you know, with a scientific lens of transformation where we're working with Applied Ecological Services, now RES, which they've just acquired, with Steve Applebaum, and then we're working with John Lundgren at Dysus Foundation to really fully map and monitor the financial transformation, the enterprise, the balance sheet, building equity in the farm, and then in tandem, also monitoring all of the improvements to insects, to pollinators, to breeding birds, to soil health, to soil carbon, to soil water, to plant diversity. We're monitoring all of that stuff. This is a project that was funded, the lead funders, Silverstrand, our anchor investor in the Perennial Fund.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Fans of the show, shout out to Kelvin and the whole group.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

We're huge fans and partners. And we're going to be tracking that over 10 years with some scientists who are just at the top of the field in terms of how to monitor and track that.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

And how are you going to make that visual? Like, how do we, I mean, we've all seen the biggest little farm and there's amazing shots like every year on the same spot, etc. Very costly process, as I remember correctly. How are you going to make the insects visual? Basically, I would almost see the farm or the land coming to life. How is that going to happen? If you know already, I'm just curious from a former storytelling background.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Yeah, we're just starting to storyboard. You know, Brendan and Kirk, who we're working with, have created highly compelling documentary films. And we're just in the transformation. Most likely, it'll be really, really personal. It's going to be oriented around the farmer themselves and their journey. There's been a lot of sort of doom and gloom, big disaster films out there. And I think that's appropriate. Like we are responding to crisis. I mean, that's why the Perennial Fund exists. At the same time, I think there's sort of a more hopeful orientation to take that taps into the unique story of each individual farmer that sort of is taking You know, and stepping out in a new ways. And so that's, I think, the sort of storytelling line that we're going to be taking. I'm sure it'll be full of drones and beautiful, up-close pictures of birds and butterflies and stuff like that. But yeah, I don't know. We're thinking about it pretty hard. What's compelling, right? I mean, that's ultimately what we need to think about. And yeah. How do we, in a time when there's actually, I think the agricultural, regenerative media space is actually becoming pretty full, you know, with interesting and great videos and media. What's the next sort of iteration of the story that's going to broaden the audience and sort of hook more people into feeling they're a part of this transformation? So we have four different things we're making, actually, in order to sort of capture different audiences. One is sort of just generally lovers of land and food, you know, like here's Mad Ag and what we're doing. We're also capturing really that kind of farmer story and celebrating them to attract more farmers into the perennial fund. The other audience that we're targeting another product for media product for is brands and buyers. So we can represent these farmers to place in a new way. And then the research project documentary will really be about sort of We're starting this journey. Our belief is that regional organic ag is better for the future. Like, start with us on this journey to figure out how. And we're going to be tracking everything. And we won't have much to show for it. You know, it takes time to change the soil. It takes time to change your relationship to place. But it happens. And, you know, we're so used to thinking on an annual time scale in every which way that when you can start seeing evolution over three or five or seven or ten years, and you can trust that the thing is going to transform and break that kind of mental time barrier constraint on our expectation, I think it will really be powerful for society and particularly farmers who are investing but not going to see that return years back. And the last thing I'll say on that is that We've been on countless farms across the country. And after you spend a field day with the farmer, it's really encouraging to me that we end up sort of talking shop and vision, usually in like the wild places on the farm, or like under the big oak tree, right? You're in the restored prairie, on the edge of the woodland.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Where it's nicest, probably. I mean, that's the nicest place to be, the freshest or the warmest, or depending on where you are, probably you can shelter for the rain. If it rains, it's the most alive place. it's

SPEAKER_02 32:07

the most alive place and there's something that's very fundamental to that that I feel like is at the core of what we're going to be communicating because it is it's sort of like a human being around a fire like it's something primordial that we feel attached to and tethered to and that we see that on each and every farm that we work with and so I think there's going to be an element of that too that's sort of anchoring that tethering into our story our bigger story

SPEAKER_00 32:32

so how can people help what do you need from the community if you need anything at the moment. Maybe it just hats down and full on in building, getting loans out of the door, getting documentaries made, research projects. What's missing? How can people help?

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Top of mind for me is money. We need philanthropic support to build our programs. It's growth capital. Most of our programs are going to be cash flowing within two or three years. So we need catalytic capital to build our teams and create runway. And I know that's really blunt, but it is totally 100% honest money is our limiting factor yeah we have dozens

SPEAKER_01 33:11

of farmers that want to work with us brands people yeah you know we just had 119 people apply for the markets position I mean People want to be part of this movement. And we've spent so long listening, learning, identifying these pain points. And now we've created something that seems like it'll work. It's a system of change that's going to be useful. And fortunately, money is the limiting barrier, not...

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Some technology that we have to reinvent, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Exactly. Money is a solvable problem. So that's our barrier right

SPEAKER_00 33:43

now. You just started with the money. The world was a wash of money, and that's the least thing to do. The least problem you should have, but it's always easy to say.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Yeah, it is good. I mean, we have like a really awesome community of funders. So I don't want to disparage that. In fact, our funding partners have been tremendous. And at the same time, given our aspirations to move$10 billion by 2030 and grow those

SPEAKER_00 34:08

teams. Sort of 10 billion with a B, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah, 10 billion. I mean, we need to build teams out. And yeah, it's just honestly what we need. And the other thing I want to circle back to is that Madagascar like we're extremely open about our kind of model and framework of change and you know i've been talking to soil heroes and gina and you're in a bunch about it and wherever people find resonance with our style of creating change we're an open book on how we do it you know so like you know we don't have building curriculum building lessons and building things and so you know i feel like we're finding resonance with how we're doing our work and you know which isn't really our work i would say that too like we've discovered something and it's built on the shoulders of so many other people before us that, I don't know, I would just, for the audiences listening, we're totally happy to pass whatever we're learning on.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

I think that's an excellent way to end this update. Thank you so much for your time. We can spend hours talking. We will in the future. You will come back on the show. Thank you so much for making the time in this extremely busy year moment as the planting and the whole everything is waking up in the Northern Hemisphere, which means farmers are extremely busy and you are extremely busy as well. So thank you so much for your time and for your work and very much looking forward to keep checking in with you.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Thank you so much, Kun. Really appreciate it. It's just awesome to be in partnership and on this journey together and I love that you invited us back and can't wait to keep doing it over the next years to come yeah I feel the same

SPEAKER_00 35:39

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