206 Yanniek Schoonhoven - Training the next generation of farmers with an academy and regenerative farm of 1100HA

A conversation with Yanniek Schoonhoven, co-founder of the Regeneration Academy, a physical learning hub and model farm in the South of Spain, about building a space and community to become practitioners, entrepreneurs, innovators and leaders in the field of regenerative agriculture and eco-system restoration, specialized in semi-arid areas.
---------------------------------------------------

Join our Gumroad community, discover the tiers and benefits on www.gumroad.com/investinginregenag. 

Support our work:

• Share it
• Give a 5-star rating
• Buy us a coffee… or a meal! www.Ko-fi.com/regenerativeagriculture

----------------------------------------------------

How do we expose the next generation of farmers to regenerative agriculture? Why is an 1100-hectare farm in a very high and dry area in one of the most threatened places when it comes to desertification, the perfect location to run and build a Regeneration Academy. A place where we can also expose active senior business leaders to regeneration.

More about this episode on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/yanniek-schoonhoven.

Find our video course on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/course.

----------------------------------------------------

The above references an opinion and is for information and educational purposes only. It is not intended to be investment advice. Seek a duly licensed professional for investment advice.

LinkedIn

Contact page website

Find out more about our Generation-Re investment syndicate:
https://gen-re.land/

Thank you to our Field Builders Circle for supporting us. Learn more here

Chapters

• 2:30 Why are you doing what you are doing? Why Soil?
• 31:15 What should smart investors, who want to invest in regenerative agriculture and food look out for?
• 35:15 What would you do if you were in charge of a 1B investment portfolio tomorrow morning?
• 39:25 If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing in the agriculture industry from a sustainability point of view, what would it be?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

How do we expose the next generation of farmers to regenerative agriculture? And why is a 1,100 hectare farm in a very high and dry area, in one of the most threatened places when it comes to desertification, the perfect location to run and build a regeneration academy? A place where we can also expose and activate senior business leaders to regeneration. Enjoy! This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast, investing as if the planet mattered, where we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Why my focus on soil and regeneration? Because so many of the pressing issues we face today have their roots in how we treat our land and our sea, grow our food, what we eat, wear and consume. And it's that we as investors, big and small, and consumers start paying much more attention to the dirt slash soil underneath our feet. To make it easy for fans to support our work, we launched our membership community. And so many of you have joined us as a member. Thank you. If our work created value for you, and if you have the means, and only if you have the means, consider joining us. Find out more on gumroad.com slash investing in regen ag. That is gumroad.com slash investing in regen ag. Or find the link below. Today with the co-founder of the Regeneration Academy, which will be a physical learning hub and model farm in south of Spain, part of a global regeneration movement, a space and community to meet and become practitioners, entrepreneurs, innovators, and leaders in the field of regenerative agriculture and ecosystem restoration, specialized in semi-arid areas. Welcome, Yannick.

SPEAKER_01: 1:50

Hi, Koen. Nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:53

And very nice to meet you. I mean, I've heard many things we've interviewed. Back in the day, I think he's no longer with Commonland, Michiel the man who was very active in your landscape. And I think they're connected at the beginning. And I felt like we've always be connected to the space where you far, but never been, first of all, and we never met, which is very funny. So we meet for the first time here today, virtually, which hopefully will be in person soon. But to start with a personal question, because you don't really have a Spanish name, let's say, how do you end up in a semi-arid, which is not the Netherlands, in Spain leading or be part of the, let's say, the leaders in this regenerative movement on the continent, basically?

UNKNOWN: 2:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:39

Yes, that's actually a little bit of a strange love story, let's say. So I'm from the Netherlands and I worked with Commonland with Michiel de Man. And I worked on the Spanish landscape looking at the subsidy system. And then I still had to do my thesis on sustainable development. And I went to the Spanish project, which is Alvelal. This is an association of over 300 farmers now that work to restore this degraded landscape here through regenerative practices. And in Alvalel, I looked at the obstacles for farmers to transition to regenerative agriculture. And through that thesis, I actually got to know La Juguera Farm. And in La Juguera Farm, there was this one young Spanish farmer that lived here all alone in a little bit of a ruin I would say and I thought that was very interesting and actually I never left so I came here to help out on the farm and we fell in love and from there I thought wow I love this man I love this space and I love this life in which we are so free, but also there's still so much possible. We can really make a difference here. And now six years ahead, we're married, we have two kids. There's a lot of people living here on this farm and we're really on the way to make this a success. So I'm quite happy.

SPEAKER_00: 4:30

That's a very, very interesting story, especially like it feels so, I mean, probably it feels like you did so much and at the same time, it's only just slightly more than a half a decade. So change can happen really fast. And just imagine another six or 12 or 18 years. So if you had to describe it now, I mean, you looked around while you said it, but nobody could see it. Like slightly a ruin, I think that has changed a bit. And at least it's not alone anymore. How would you describe the farm and the hub or where you are now to people when they say, okay, where are you exactly in Spain? And what is that place? It's much more than a farm, I think.

UNKNOWN: 5:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 5:09

Yes, definitely. So we are based in Murcia, actually on the border with Andalusia in the Altiplana, which is around 1100 meters altitude. And we are based in the highlands and also drylands of southern Spain in a farm called La Junquera. It's an organic and regenerative farm. And if you look around, what do you see? You see cereal fields around us quite a lot of degraded land empty villages and our village actually has gotten a lot fuller so we started with a couple of ruins and every year we've been able to fix up one of the ruins to make them into a house and now we have over five houses we have an office there's a bodega a winery here there's a work shop for fixing things and we've also diversified a lot the landscape because before there was only conventional cereals and now we have almonds we have pistachios we have aromatics we have walnuts there's a big vegetable garden there's an apple orchard there's a vineyard we have an ecosystem restoration camp on our farm which hosts volunteers all year round to help do reforestations on our farm and other farms and something that I'm very involved in is the regeneration academy which we've started five years ago with my colleague Sanne Kuyt and that has grown from a company or an organization with a couple of students into now a really big project in which we have education educational programs with schools. We have educational programs with local entrepreneurs. We work still with international students. So we have groups of international students living with us for four months, twice a year. And we host short-term courses as well. So from basically having very few people, just us and a dog. Now we are here with over 20 people. The houses have been rebuilt, at least some of them. And there's a lot of movement. So there's a lot of people live, people who want to do things, people who would like to be involved. And we really see that difference also in the wider territory that this has brought a lot to people. It has brought back some inspiration and also given some value to what people thought was not valuable.

SPEAKER_00: 8:05

And just to describe the area a bit, this is a challenging... ecosystem you're in, it's very high, very dry. And these are degraded lands, as you mentioned. So you've definitely started the transition and are deep into that. Like, where do you see that going? Is it going to be mostly agroforestry systems? Are cereals still involved? Where do you see, like, let's say the farm part going, which I think is like 1100 hectares, which is definitely not small. And the sort of base or the platform where all of everything else is built on on top? Where do you see that farming piece go over time?

SPEAKER_01: 8:44

I hope in the future we can diversify a lot more. We can do a lot more intercropping. At the moment, this has been quite difficult, especially because it is so dry that the competition between crops is quite high. But what we are doing now is more and more experiments of intercropping with almonds, pistachios, and aromatics. And that seems to work quite okay. So we want to grow that experiment experiment a lot. We hope that in the future most of our farm will be into cropping. We also hope to continue to have cereals because we work with some ancient grain varieties that have very deep roots and in the way we are farming them we also give let's say a mulch to the soil afterwards and the stubbles they get integrated again into the soil and give some organic matter back which in our area is very necessary. And also the cereals are not only a bad annual, let's say. They are also a space where a lot of esteparian birds have their nests, where a lot of wildlife comes in to eat. So it's also something that we would really like to keep into our system and preferably in a way that it will have a positive effect.

SPEAKER_00: 10:10

And when did you decide, or maybe it was a gradual process, but to make education such a cornerstone piece of the project and the farm. Did it happen over time? Because I think many farms might have a few students and a few interns here and there, maybe some tours every now and then, but it's always a side hustle or a side job or something they do on the side and maybe some open days and that's more or less it. But in this case, it feels much more as a really a centerpiece in the whole operation and project. And was it a conscious decision or a just sort of happened.

SPEAKER_01: 11:35

Well, it's quite funny because I come from a family of teachers on the one side and a family of farmers on the other side. So it was basically predetermined. I think it's had to happen. But since I was in all of law, I really saw a lot of people interested in coming, but there were no facilities to make this happen. So, or there was a language barrier or there was a lack of space, physical space for them to be. Many students don't have cars. So There was always the question, okay, people want to come and help, people want to make an impact, but we don't have yet the way to facilitate that. And that's when I thought, well, in La Conquera, space is definitely not the problem. So why don't we

SPEAKER_00: 12:23

do that here? Things to do as well, yeah. Yeah, why don't we do that here? And I

SPEAKER_01: 12:27

think there is enough to do. And as someone who loved doing internships myself, I really saw... how it could benefit each other and how the farm could learn from the things that the students bring in. And the students can learn from the things that you learn on the farm that you cannot learn in a classroom. Because in a classroom, it's theory in the end. And even all the theory in the world, if you are here on the field, it sometimes just works differently. And then learning that and understanding that complexity and understanding how everything works together And bringing that back to wherever you go next, I think is super valuable. And for us, it was extremely valuable to have more brains to put on this transition because this is never done. We're never finished. So how could we help or how could they help us with the experiments that they came up with, bring them in practice, and basically we would have 10 more brains on our farm to do this. do the things that before only we were doing. So now there were 10 people thinking about, okay, if I change this thing in the system, what effect does it have and how can I monitor that? And if I do it in this skill and a bigger skill, how does that work? So both were benefiting each other a lot. And I think that is what's really the power of the Regeneration Academy.

SPEAKER_00: 13:56

And you don't only focus on students. I mean, I've seen training farmers, which is a huge piece, like education for people that work want to get into the space or have some experience but not let's say the full skill set and that did that come naturally because i don't think there are too many places at least in semi-arid places in europe where you can actually learn this and not in a classroom because that seems to be impossible on the region x on the region x side

SPEAKER_01: 14:24

yes i think for us we are always looking for let's say people to work with us to work on farms and we saw that many people didn't have this knowledge and especially also local people there are not a lot of spaces where you indeed as you say can find this knowledge but also learn in a practical way because for a farmer it's very important to actually see this change and to see what you're doing somewhere if it really works and a farmer can see if it really works or not and in a book you really cannot so also focusing on these young and future farmers for us is key to to transform this territory. If we don't focus on them and we don't focus on this next generation, in five years, 60% of the farmers here have stopped working. They're already above 65 years old now. So who comes

SPEAKER_00: 15:24

next? And has there been a lot of interest from the next generation regionally, let's say, and has that changed over the last six years in terms of, okay, maybe going from the weirdest to actually there's something there. Let me at least engage and interact. Or what has been the experience with local next generation young farmers?

SPEAKER_01: 15:50

Yeah, so I think the moment we organized a very big festival was when we captured a lot of interest. So we organized a regeneration festival here five years ago. And from that moment on, a lot more young people got interested because that's also the moment that they saw, oh, there's actually young people in the countryside and they're doing cool things and they're not extremely weird. They like good music. They like to party. and they like to restore the land and be super sustainable so you can actually do all of that and you don't have to choose and I think that was really a turning point also for this territory and for how people were looking at this movement so I think indeed before they were maybe looking at it as a very niche thing that was not definitely not for most people and I think bit by bit they see it a lot more as something that can actually be very successful and I think the more successful we can be the more people believe that this is that they can also be successful with this but of course in the beginning they did think we are complete weirdos and I think that has definitely changed over the years because in the first open day we had like four people joining and the last open day we did we had a hundred people so and those were all locals so there are really interested in what we're doing and what's happening.

SPEAKER_00: 17:21

And you see it spreading on the land as well like is it because you have this beautiful satellite imagery I have to find a screenshot of the farms around Mark Shepard in the US of course very different climate but slowly you see over time the key line design spreading and the agroforestry line spreading and you see some stubborn neighbors that still plant everything very straight on every hill just to because it was always done like that but you see it slowly spreading and do you see that as well like do you see neighbors or neighbors of neighbors that start to implement things that they have clearly seen on your farm first maybe or were exposed to through through your tours reaction and education

SPEAKER_01: 18:02

yeah so what i've heard and this is actually more stuff that i've heard than have seen because we have a very big landscape with very very very few people living around is that we started with these swales and now there's a over 70 kilometers of swales in the territory. So that's, I think, a very good step. There's also people who are doing already quite different things than we are doing, which is also very exciting. So we are now also going to farms like, hey, I heard you do this. And then they tell me, yeah, because a few years ago I came to your farm during the festival and I saw that all these people were doing really interesting things. And now I'm really motivated to do also more and or I was at the open day and now I've also changed a few things on my farm so people really start implementing things that they've seen here they come to us to check in like hey I see that you've been doing this is it still working and then we're like yeah it's still working and it's still giving a good income so maybe you can try it too But yeah, for these things, the best thing is if people see that it works. So the more people that are doing it, the better it is in the

SPEAKER_00: 19:30

end. The more it spreads.

SPEAKER_01: 19:30

The more of their neighbors will start doing.

SPEAKER_00: 19:34

Another pillar, I think, of the academy, and then we unpack where you want to take it, is to have senior business leaders as well to get this concept of regeneration. Maybe if you're not farming directly or don't want to get into farming directly, it can still be very, very valuable. Did that happen by accident or did they suddenly show up at some point like, oh, we want a crash course here? Or how did that part of the program, which obviously is an interesting revenue stream as well, if you and structured as well to, and very, very impactful potentially if they go back to wherever their headquarters are and get bitten by the regeneration bug. How did that part happen? And how did they find you? Or did you find them?

SPEAKER_01: 20:20

Yeah, good question. We started to organize crash courses and they were actually for everyone who was interested in regenerative agriculture. So it was really to introduce people these concepts in a dry land context and from there a few crash courses we mainly had people who owned land but then also the last crash course we started all of a sudden to have only people who were higher up in the value chain business leaders but also into logistics into sustainable packaging into more the food sector into restaurants and that's also when we saw ah but that's maybe a very different group and also a group that is even maybe interested in more the systemic side of what we have to offer so looking more at a different part of the system instead of asking questions on okay so how many worms do I need to make a good vermicompost they were asking things so how does this compost relate to to the animals in the area and how does that change the waste streams so they were asking different questions and that's also when we realized okay there's also really high demand from the senior business leaders to understand this system better while also getting a peek into what it is like to live on a farm to be on a farm to work with your hands to have the cows escape at night and all those other elements that are that are part of farm life

SPEAKER_00: 22:39

and so where would you like to take the regeneration academy what's the you've sort of been doing very quite large-scale pilots let's say or it's a small startup and now it seems to be entering a new phase where would you like to take it and um where yeah where would you like to be let's say in five years um

SPEAKER_01: 23:00

So in five years, we are looking at buying a piece of land where we can build a physical hub because so far we've done it a little bit with the houses that we have here on the farm, but it has grown out of that. So we need a physical space where people can stay over, where students can stay, where there's an educational center, where there's an information center, where we have a little laboratory for soil samples and where people can also experiment with different menus, different food. And that is actually touching the farm. So we're now looking into buying this piece of land. So we're looking for investments for that. We are hoping to have that secured within the year. And then we want to start building this hub there. And that will make a very big difference because where now we can do maybe four of these crash courses and have two groups of students per year, That would mean we can have 15 groups of short courses and 20 students per time. So that would really change. Also, it would change everything, basically. It would really make a difference and we would be able to spread this knowledge a lot faster than we are doing now. And also people would come to learn, people would come to interact, people would come to exchange knowledge in this place and now that space just doesn't really exist in the south of spain yet and i think actually in all of spain

SPEAKER_00: 24:39

it's really a physical place that enables the basically the academy you want to build really yeah

SPEAKER_01: 24:46

really yeah we want to build a real big academy a real hub where everybody can come together to learn about this but also where we can learn about what doesn't work because not only perfect of course so it would be a place where we keep on learning all together and I hope this exchange of knowledge also with other farmers but also with farmers all over Europe and maybe from other places in the world will really help us and then besides that we are building this or well not yet but we are going to build this educational platform in which we can also share this knowledge online this is not something that we've done on a scale yet, but now we've had so many students doing research. We've had so many new knowledge that has been created that we feel that other people, other farmers in dryland area should also be able to see this and to experiment with these things as well.

SPEAKER_00: 25:49

And what has been your biggest surprise over the last years, both on the farming and education side, but what has been the biggest surprise or the biggest unknown that just you wouldn't have expected?

SPEAKER_01: 26:02

I've heard like I think many people in the regenerative world that you can only improve your soil if you do a no-till or if you don't yeah if you don't till and that that's the way to do it and now I've been farming here for over six years I know that that is not necessarily true you can also improve the soil on in different ways with green manure with very minimal tillage with green covers ground covers and that there's different ways of doing these things and I think I never realized how dry this area was and how big the effect is of not having water versus having water. For example, we have a place where we have irrigation and there we can have ground cover all year round and the trees do great, the grass does great, the flowers do great and everything looks beautiful. But that's only a few hectares so far, 1100 hectares, so that's nothing. And then the rest, If you do a ground cover all year round, all your trees die. It's really, really difficult. So we've had to learn the hard way that having an all year round ground cover might work well in some areas, but I look differently now at farmers who don't have it because I know in some cases that this is just a really challenging thing and that you either have a ground cover or you have a crop. But in our case, if you want to do that all year round, you cannot have both. So that was something that I didn't realize so much before that it's very context dependent.

SPEAKER_00: 27:53

And how is the change you've seen? I mean, I haven't really followed let's say the weather patterns for sure they're changing as well in southern Spain but over the last six years like how has the soil been responding like how fast has change have come maybe on some of the hectares of course not on all but have you seen drastic shifts in terms of biodiversity in terms of insect life in terms of basically what we're looking for normally if we look at a regenerative transition has the speed surprised you or is it because it's such a challenging environment, very high, quite cold in the winter, very dry, also a slower process than some other places.

SPEAKER_01: 28:39

It's definitely not fast. I mean, if you plant here, a tree here, you have a forest in 50 years. Well, for example, in the Netherlands, you plant a tree, you have a forest in five years. So you have to have a very long breath. Do you want to see this one through? And you have to have a lot of patience. And I know that for investors that's maybe not the most interesting thing you know in 50 years you might have a forest well that's not something that sells easily but we also have seen changes in a year for example when we started doing vegetation strips between the trees so that's not a full vegetation but that's between the streets you have two meters of vegetation and we have seen incredible increases in biodiversity just by not tilling, not touching those vegetation strips at all. We've seen whole flocks of birds, estriparian birds coming back. We see butterflies all year round. There's flowers all year round. So those strips house insects. They house also a lot of soil life because if you check what is the soil life like in those vegetation strips versus the tilled part, That's already a very big difference. The structure is a lot better. The smell is very different. So we do see these changes. We cannot indeed have them on the whole farm. 1,100 hectares is very big. But there are things that change fast and things that take a bit more time. So, for example, we've planted hedges and borders in many parts of our fields. And that takes maybe five years before you see something, you know, growing. While for five years you think, I planted stuff here and it doesn't really show. So then you come with people to show the forest, like, look at this beautiful hedge and there is nothing to see. But then five years later, there is something to see. So also for that, we, well, people need to take the time and be patient to see this change.

SPEAKER_00: 30:58

And would it be the main message you give investors? I mean, or you are giving investors because for sure people either working in the financial sector and or investing their own wealth have been visiting your farm and have gone through crash courses, et cetera. What is your main message to them? Is that the patient piece or is it because many people get excited, they've seen documentaries, they've read some books, say, okay, I want to invest in this space. What do you normally tell them?

SPEAKER_01: 31:28

It depends on how fast you want a monetary return I don't believe that you can have in this area a monetary return of 8% in 10 years and that is not something you should want because that's not how our landscape works our landscape goes slow it needs time, it's too dry it needs water to grow and there is not much of it so that takes time so if you think of this investment a 20 year timeline would make a lot more sense in our case it would give our area a lot more time to start growing and also I think For investors, if you would look at, okay, I want a fast monetary return in regenerative agriculture, then you forget a bit that it's also about diversity. Diversity is key to what we are doing. If we don't diversify in many ways, and then I'm not only talking crops, I'm also talking including animals, I'm talking having little plots that might not make loads of money, but that are great for diversification. I'm also talking in the social part like diversifying your farm income so you're more stable you're more resilient and that is maybe not the fastest money so if you would put here one monoculture of almonds yes that would give fast money but is that regenerative I don't think so so also taking diversity into account when you do an investment and taking into account that the more you pressure people or farmers into getting high returns the less space there will be for this diversification and that's a pity I think it's a real pity because then you kind of go past the whole idea of regeneration and you forget a little bit what it's all about.

SPEAKER_00: 33:37

And so how do you approach fundraising for the academy? Are you looking for commercial capital? Are you looking mostly for grant capital? What's the business model behind it? What are you approaching there? Because you're looking for money to buy and build, which is always a lot of money somehow that ends up being quite a bit of cash. And how are you planning or hoping to Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:04

So for the Academy, we're a foundation. We are looking for a mix of grants and loans to make this happen. We do believe that we can pay it back within 15 years, but Of course, this depends on many things. And therefore, we've already secured a couple of grants also from other partners.

SPEAKER_00: 34:32

So you are definitely looking for some commercial capital to add, let's say, to the blended capital mix or stack.

SPEAKER_01: 34:40

Yeah, we would like the blended capital. Yes, because we also understand that it might be very difficult to get everything in grants. And that's not necessarily what we want. We also don't believe that that would then be the most regenerative option um it's also so it's also a way for us to do more courses with which would give us more income

SPEAKER_00: 35:02

and so what would you do if you'd be in charge of a large investment portfolio so i usually call this like the one billion dollar or one billion euro investment portfolio with very long-term perspective so you it doesn't have to be a 10 or 5 year luckily but what would you focus on i'm asking this question not because i want to know exact euro amounts i I'm asking this question because I want to know what you would prioritize if, let's say, financial resources wouldn't be the question.

SPEAKER_01: 35:29

Yes. We would focus on investing everything in one big area. I think the more you spread it out, the less impact you're going to have in the long run. So having one very big area and preferably one watershed, thereby Increasing the water quality. Because at this moment, for example, in this area, all the water sources are polluted. People cannot drink the water anymore, except for on this farm. But all the other villages is polluted. The water levels are going down. The rivers are all dry. So what I would do is I would focus on one watershed. I would either buy up farms that have illegal wells and restore that land and introduce regenerative organic agriculture or have it managed by other people and what we would do is train a lot of young people bring a lot of young people back to this area through indeed regeneration academies in different places maybe even an agricultural university building we would also help to start all these regenerative businesses that can produce produce all the food that comes from all these farms in this very big area because with let's say one billion dollars you can buy over a hundred thousand hectares so you can really make a change you can really make a difference and besides that we would connect all the natural areas so that also animals and wildlife can roam free and can have enough space and habitat to live but also to protect the agricultural land through an integrated pest management system so I think looking at this landscape level there would be a lot we could do with 1 billion euros

SPEAKER_00: 37:36

and do you see let's say the a shift in interest in what you're doing, in scale, in, let's say, talking about watershed levels. I remember five, six years ago, or even before, I think very few people were talking at that level. Basically, Commonland or Forward Return Partners, when it was still called like that, and a few other players. Now, it seems to be shifting a bit more that the conversation about water, watersheds, water quality, landscape level restoration or regeneration is starting to emerge. Do you see that as well? or is it still mainly focused on like the farm to farm level?

SPEAKER_01: 38:16

I think it depends a lot on who you talk to. I hear it a lot more as well. I do believe that this idea that we cannot look at landscape restoration from one angle, but that we have to take into account indeed these four returns of common net, this framework within, in which we talk about bringing back inspiration, bringing back the natural capital, bringing back finance and bringing back social capital that whole picture that I do hear a lot more and I believe it's key we cannot just plant trees and then in five years people don't even remember why they're there and they cut them again like we have to change the system to make it work and that is something that I hope will become a lot more integrated in any business not just businesses related to agriculture also any other business that is around

SPEAKER_00: 39:11

And I'm sorry we take away your investment fund, but we do give you a magic wand that enables you one wish only, but you have the magic power to change one thing overnight. So immediately tomorrow morning, it's been done. What would that be?

SPEAKER_01: 39:28

I thought about this and I came up with a million things, but...

SPEAKER_00: 39:31

That usually happens, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 39:34

Yes, yes. And I was like, oh, no, this I want to do. And then, oh, no, this. But in the end, I think that the biggest change would happen when we take livestock out of the factories that they're in at the moment and we have them only in holistic grazing. So this would be the magic idea, right? So not saw through... really detailed things yet but I think stopping this very intensive livestock and having livestock roam the countryside only grazing and yeah there would be a lot less space for it yes so people would have to eat less meat yes please but it also would mean that we don't have to import soy from the Amazon there are a lot less methane emissions if the cows graze outside and it also fertilizes

SPEAKER_00: 40:37

the soil so if you integrate it well from very far away based on fossil fuels

SPEAKER_01: 40:43

Yes, I think that would make a very big difference. But of course, that would mean we would have to eat maybe one tenth of the meat that we eat now. So there the magic comes in.

SPEAKER_00: 40:55

Yeah, and I think there are even some, I've seen some numbers trying to do some of the calculations, I think in the US, obviously, where it's even more concentrated, not that in Europe it isn't. But it wouldn't even be, like the quantity of animals currently in CAFO operations, it would actually be quite possible to graze them in the US so the numbers are not even depending on where and what kind of but it's quite surprising how much more biomass we can have on the land that we're not used to at all obviously because we separated everything but how much more we can push in a good way let's say biodiversity biomass on the land how much more production is actually possible when done very strategically obviously depending on where you are because otherwise many places turn into a desert but it's there's a lot possible there. Not saying we shouldn't eat less, but it's not a myth or it's not a fact that we have to do, I don't know, only 1% and it would never work because we need more protein, et cetera, et cetera. There's even an argument if we maybe need less protein.

SPEAKER_01: 41:59

Definitely. And it's also something that we see a lot in this area is shepherds, they don't have, or they need more and more animals every year to get by. But that's not necessarily because, well, it's also because of the price of the animals, of the meat. But it's also because there's less and less grazing. So before, ground cover was a lot more normal to have around. So sheep grazed under trees, and that was a lot more normal. Now, first of all, it's not so normal. So there's less feed. So they have to buy food, which is a higher cost. And then that's not worth it. And that doesn't make sense anymore for them, but also they are less and less allowed to roam over different farms. So you have a problem in which they have to stay on one farm and then the food is gone and then they have no place to go. So I think also by externalizing a lot this grazing and making it a lot more ecosystem based, you would change also the routes that these animals would take to graze. They would graze where the harvests have been. They would graze where there's ground cover under the trees and then they move on and I think that whole concept has been lost a bit at least here in Europe or at least here in Spain and also in the Netherlands

SPEAKER_00: 43:25

and if you would take a watershed and ecosystem scale approach and you had a billion then you would definitely be able to take a lot of the fences away or at least the real ones and the imaginary ones and have animals where they can have an ecosystem benefit and not have them graze something now that they shouldn't be touching at that moment in time

SPEAKER_01: 43:47

definitely and I think that would be a lot more healthy than what's happening now that there's a lot of over grazing in certain spots and then in other spots people don't have even animals close by anymore and they have to import them to graze because all the shepherds have gone bankrupt

SPEAKER_00: 44:06

yeah there's there's a lot on the on the grazing side but I want to be conscious of your time as well and I'm definitely looking forward to check in how the academy is developing and hopefully building physically the building space. But for now, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your journey so far and a very exciting future.

SPEAKER_01: 44:27

Thank you, Koen. Looking forward to check in later. And also, if you're ever around, which, I mean, it might be difficult, but if you're ever around, please visit our farm.

SPEAKER_00: 44:40

Thank you so much. Thanks again and see you next time.