Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
329 Yanik Nyberg - Are saltwater plants grown on tens of millions ha of abandoned, drained salt marshes going to be the livestock feed of the future?
A conversation with Yanik Nyberg, co-founder of Nara Climate and Sea Water Solutions, about feed for aquaculture and on-land livestock, salinity—when soils get saltier. Millions of hectares of former soil marshes close to the coast have been drained over the last thousands of years and often farmed, slowly but surely because of rising seawater levels. Soil water is creeping back in, and traditional farming is getting impossible. What do we do with these millions of hectares? One way is to rewet them and grow salt-loving plants called halophytes. These plants are also great feedstock for the aquaculture industry and poultry to replace the massive negative impact of soy.
So, what is holding back the large feed companies from incorporating this novel but originally the feedstock of many fish into their mixes? Interestingly enough, most of the world's deserts are getting saltier too. Because of extreme rain, it rains in the desert every now and then, which leads to flash floods. Millions of livestock pastoralists and their animals are suffering because of drought and floods, and the salts make their grass-based pastures disappear. Could the magical salt-loving halyphoates also be grown in the desert and feed these animals?
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Salinity, the issues of soils getting saltier. Millions of hectares of former salt marshes close to the coast have been drained over the last thousands of years and often farmed Slowly but surely, because of rising sea levels, saltwater is creeping back in and traditional farming is getting, or already is, impossible. What do we do with these millions of hectares? One way is to re-wet them and grow salt-loving plants called halophytes. These plants are also a great feedstock for the aquaculture industry and poultry to replace the massive negative impacts of soy. So what is holding us back, what is holding back the large feed companies to start incorporating this novel, but originally the feedstock of many fishes, into their mixes? And, interestingly and surprisingly enough, most of the world's deserts are also getting saltier because of extreme rain. Yes, it rains in the desert every now and then, which leads to flash floods. Millions of livestock, pastoralists and their animals are suffering because of drought, floods and the salts which make their grass-based pastures disappear. Could the magical salt-loving halophytes also be grown in the desert and feed these animals? Take a deep breath, and another one. Every second breath we take comes from the oceans and over half of the fish we eat is farmed. That's why we dedicate a series to explore the potential of regeneration.
Speaker 1:Underwater Oceans and other water bodies cover most of our planet and have stored most of the excess heat so far and, at the same time, have some of the best opportunities to produce healthy food, mostly protein, store carbon, create materials, fuel, bio-stimulants and much, much more Plus, create a lot of jobs in coastal communities. We have largely ignored the water-based farming aquaculture industry in this podcast until now. In these conversations we explore why aquaculture is so important for the future of our planet. If we get this wrong, we have a serious problem. And what are the risks and challenges with feed, the reliance on soy pests yes, there are pests underwater antibiotics, microplastics, etc. What does it mean when you apply regenerative principles to aquaculture? What can soil-based agriculture learn from aquaculture and vice versa? And what should investors really know about water-based farming and what the potential is of regenerative aquaculture?
Speaker 1:A series of interviews with the people putting money to work, entrepreneurs and investors in this crucial and often overlooked sector. We're grateful for the support of the Nest family office in order to make this series. The Nest is a family office dedicated to building a more resilient food system through supporting natural solutions and innovative technologies that change the way we produce food. You can find out more on thenestfocom or in the links below. Welcome to another episode. Today we're the co-founder of Nara Climate and Seawater Solutions. They build ecosystems with saltwater to fight climate change and create regenerative ingredients by building productive ecosystems with salty water. Welcome, Yannick.
Speaker 1:Hi, thanks for having me and we're going to talk a lot about saltwater in this episode, obviously as it's part of the Regen Aquaculture series. This is sort of at this intersection between land and sea Sometimes it's sea, sometimes it's land and a lot in between. But I would love to start with a personal question. We always like to ask at the beginning of our conversations is how did you end up spending most of your awake hours thinking and acting around salty water and agriculture? What led you to spending so much time on this very neglected we're going to talk about it as well neglected opportunity and challenge?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I. I personally come from a development background, so I spent a lot of time in sub-saharan africa, um, working and, excuse me, living in a place like Botswana and in West Africa where salinity is is a problem and I I got to see that firsthand. Very young and saline land far inland has obviously a relationship to to the sea as well so just to to to unpack that what is salinity for anybody that starts Googling now? Or.
Speaker 2:Ecosia search, which, of course, is good yeah salinization is a process where land becomes salty, simply put, so that can happen in a number of different ways. So one way is on the coast, where, for example, there's coastal flooding and then that coastal farmland becomes salty. That's one smaller, I think, reason for it. But when you're looking at inland, you have climate change creating drought conditions, and when you have this climate-induced weather patterns, when a lot of rain falls very quickly and then dries up immediately, that you know there's salt in all of all water, all fresh water, like trace salt. So when it rains a lot and then that evaporates very quickly, it leaves that trace salt over time and when the ground is not covered, that evaporation is quicker and over time this can be. Salt builds up on land and so this is a problem that few people really understand. But recent estimates by the likes of the United Nations and the European Union 1.7 billion hectares of land is salt affected. So I think that's just over the size of Russia, for example, globally.
Speaker 1:That's massive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's massive. So that affects places like the size of Russia, for example. Globally, that's massive. Yeah, it's massive. So that affects places like the Midwest and the US, a huge amount of Australia, southern Africa, east Africa, central Asia, so places that are far away from the ocean.
Speaker 1:Which is not where you would expect salt to be an issue. And what you're saying is and it's the first time and I'm a bit ashamed, I didn't know about it, um, but we're covering this, this here, like inland, extreme rains are happening way more often. Bare land is, unfortunately, way more present. And you're saying, if that happens, uh, in in a number of decades or or less, basically the salt that normally would go down with with rainfall and wouldn't be, would be diluted or wouldn't be. Such an issue starts to build up and becomes a very, very significant issue at the soil level and the topsoil level, basically, and prevents a lot of things from growing, because that's why it's an issue.
Speaker 2:So flooding causes salinization and desertification in a ring road approach. Right when we looked at the last year's floods in pakistan, right where I think a third of the country was underwater, what we were thinking on our side is like that is going to be a lot of salty desert when that's gone and so being exposed to that as as a young young person, what?
Speaker 1:what triggered you there? Um, apart from a bit of uh dismay and and losing hope, maybe, like, even if we get uh salty deserts in inland and not only have uh like water, because I think in many coastal communities we know like the salt is creeping into into like land that we've maybe. I come from the netherlands. Of course we build the dikes, we we pushed out a lot of salt water, we farmed it for a long time and now we for years, have seen that creeping in that sort of a known thing. Okay, in that area of land where it used to be sea, now it's land and it wants to go back to sea, probably, or at least to marshes, and that's that feels more like a known thing. But then, when you see that inland, inland, hundreds of thousands of kilometers away from from the ocean, um, how does it make you feel? Or how does that like led you to where you are now?
Speaker 2:I think the really simple logic that we followed was okay, here's millions of hectares of salt affected lands that you can't grow anything on, and then we asked well, what could grow here, hypothetically? And so you know, if you go on a quick Google search, what grows in salty land land, you know, the first thing they'll probably pop up is, um, halophytes. So these halophytes is what. These are, the type of plant there are 300 of them or so uh, that are edible and they grow in coastal ecosystems, and so that's how we kind of ended up on the coast. That's how we ended up in aquaculture, um, because we looked at this issue inland salt-affected desert and that's taken us to where these plants grow and through that process of studying these ecologies, so these blue carbon ecosystems, which are mangrove forests, salt marshes and seagrass meadows, that's really how we got into that more marine-focused side of that, which is the same coin, right, it's food security, it's restoration, it's productivity.
Speaker 1:Let's spend another minute or so on the inland side as well. So you're bringing these halophytes, or plants that are used to more salty environments, to the inlands, which is probably the first time they grew there. Or if you go back a few million years, maybe when it was still a sea, there were plants like that. But let's park that for a second. Then what's the goal there? How would that work? Of course, there's a great description on your website, which I think the acronym is actually salt, but to kickstart regeneration there. How does it look like and what's the end goal there? Is it to bring back fresh water? Or how does the salt system, as you nicely call it on your website, work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a tricky one to describe it in terms of like, regeneration or restoration. Like you said, these plants likely haven't been there for millions and millions of years. Now there's a reason why there's so much saltwater in the ground in parts of the region like the Kalahari, because that used to be part of the ocean, I don't know 100 million years ago or something you know, prehistoric at the very least Same with like in East Africa. So I don't want to go too far back in time, but the point where we're at here is that you know, we are taking plants that do not grow in those conditions and we're forcing them to grow in inland deserts, for the purpose of one is sequestering carbon, but fundamentally, at the end of the day, we're trying to grow crops where they're needed most.
Speaker 2:And in the case of places like the Kalahari or Northern Kenya, the crossroads of Ethiopia, somalia and Uganda, those places rely on pastoralist ways of life and every year millions of cattle and livestock die in these drought conditions in those regions alone. And the nexus between saline agriculture in those deserts that are degraded can also then facilitate restoration of those natural ecosystems, like rangelands. So this over-depletion of rangelands and grasslands obviously exacerbates and accelerates the drought conditions and the degradation of land. So we see halophytes in these blue ecosystems that can grow in virtually any condition, in some of the harshest conditions like the Kalahari Desert, as the initial feedstocks that can help support the restoration, feedstocks that can help support the restoration. So if we're creating big farms with saltwater, then we can feed cattle. They can be managed better in less of a crisis mode. They can actually be managed properly and therefore then also accelerate the restoration of the native range lands. So that's you know one.
Speaker 1:Basically you're saying, like the, the, the millions of animals on the postural lands there, and for people that are not familiar, it's very, they're very, harsh conditions, very drought focused at the moment, especially the last decades, and it's only getting worse. Meaning, and which we just discussed, is only making the salt levels in the topsoil more, meaning that grasses are not thriving like pasture, it doesn't like it, um, to be too salty, and that simply means less animals or more animals in stress, etc. That that vicious circle continues to to spiral out of control. And you're saying let's use the salty water that's not only in the the top part, but actually at the bottom as well, because it used to be, um, like if you drink for irrigation, it's going to be salty as well. Yeah, that's at least farm plants that are used to that and can be eaten. Let's be very practical, practical here.
Speaker 1:And if those animals get out of the stress mode and can be fed, um, there there's a lot of manure, there's a lot of restoration you can do we feature that many times on the podcast as well with grazing. But of course, if there's nothing to graze, then then there's there's uh, that's not going to be easy. Let's say so. That's the inland model, bringing plants there. They're not native, but actually actually thrive, uh, in these harsh conditions and, uh, using the salt water. And at some point will there be a tip like how do you, um, like, are you by farming salt plants there, are you increasing the salt or are you decreasing the salt? Like, how does that work in terms?
Speaker 2:of around the farm. Yeah, it really depends how you manage and depending on the land and all the circumstances. But you know, these plants are really amazing at soaking up salt, so they have been used to remediate land as well. Salt, so they have been used to remediate land as well. So when you're looking at conventional agriculture, you can use these plants to basically soak up the salts and allow the rehabilitation of that farmland. So in this context of the livestock, that's not what we're doing Now. We're actively taking saline, salt-affected land and building farms on them, using these salophytes to meet that feed need.
Speaker 1:And where are you doing that? At the?
Speaker 2:moment. So that's something that we're doing in places like Ghana, namibia, kenya, pakistan and, to some degree, in Spain.
Speaker 1:And then, starting, let's say, from the desert and finding halophytes, you moved, not moved. Your focus broadened, let's say, to the coastal areas as well, and there are tens of millions, if not more, degraded lands as well, former salt marshes that were diked and were productive agriculture for a while. Like, how do you remember when you stumbled upon that, like the combination of halophytes and coastal, coastal areas, because your focus was on the desert or is, yeah, a big part is, of course, on the inland side yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:So you know, very early on um, already in 2018, we we were looking at coastal ecosystems, um you know, these ecosystems are where these plants are from. We knew that we had to get a better grasp of what they are, how they grow, just learning about these in order to bring that knowledge, I suppose, to these inland saline regions. So we spent a lot of time in those ecosystems on the coast, so, for example, even salt marshes in Scotland or, you know, mangrove forests in vietnam, um where some colleagues of mine were working. So we already had a fairly good grasp of um of these ecologies, how they worked and how they could be used, and and so we very quickly, already in year one, started developing projects in the context of, you know, coastal ecosystem either restoration or farming or aquaculture and just to, to paint a picture, like in these, these coastal ecosystems in in scotland, but also in spain, like what should we imagine when we?
Speaker 1:what's the current state before you come in? Let's say, before you start working, what's the current state of um of those ecosystems, those landscapes, when, um, when you, when you approach them, let's say um, primarily very healthy um, these are simply, I would say, educational sites of interest.
Speaker 2:but our our main focus at that time and the first sites we actually worked on were, for example, coastal rice paddies in Bangladesh that were salt-affected or over-polluted aquaculture ponds in Vietnam. So that was our first coastal focus is actually looking at these areas, and that's really where the idea came from in using blue ecosystem species like mangroves and salt marsh plants to one rehabilitate those areas and those aquaculture sites and integrate the aquaculture into that, while also then producing feed locally on site. So that was our main focus there at the start.
Speaker 1:Like really using these plants that thrive in the saltwater to reduce the saltiness and reduce the pollution that then enables the shrimp farmer to continue, or the mangroves to be restored, etc. That's right. And so how did you end up in Spain and in and in, let's say, the more european side of things, which is a very different ecosystem, similar issues, but let's say there are no farm, uh, or not spring farms at that scale, uh, in in europe yeah, I mean, like I, like I said, we were focusing a lot on smallholder aquaculture in south and southeast asia and west africa, um, where, you know, typically people have a couple ponds right and and the scalability isn't necessarily there.
Speaker 2:Um, what we always found interesting was you know, there's two main benefits of putting ecosystem onto aquaculture operations. One, it produces the pollution and and cleans the water, so it has that eco service function. And the second one is you're producing all your feed requirements on site, so it's two really big and we've discovered in this series.
Speaker 1:And then our feed is. Feed and pollution are probably the two exactly.
Speaker 2:So it's levers you have and it makes so much sense, right, because obviously blue ecosystems so these coastal wetlands is where the vast majority of marine species live, breed and eat. So that disconnect is quite critical. But the feed side grew in significance, I think, for us. We knew the challenges of trying to provide that service or that training to small farmers to try and get them to incorporate these ecosystems onto their sites. I mean, fundamentally it's just growing salt, marsh and mangrove species onto in the ponds, in and around the ponds. It's not hyper technical, but to scale that is quite difficult. Um, I think to scale the feed side is actually a lot easier, right, if you're able to manufacture a lot of feed. The benefits that you're going to see is also directly impacts the waste as well. Um, so we really looked at how can we?
Speaker 1:realization when you, when you went sort of from let's help as many smaller farmers to grow their own feed to let's start growing feed for, or figure out ways of growing feed for others feed for the livestock industry livestock both above water and underwater as a huge need for feed, and we discussed grazing a lot and we discussed feed on aquaculture as well. There's a lot of soy involved, which we all know the issues with, but when did that, that realization, came of?
Speaker 2:we actually have an opportunity to grow feed at scale for others um, I think it came fairly early on, but it's it's always a chicken and egg situation, right, like, uh, we know it worked years ago. Um, but in order to scale it and have other people adopt it, you need that precedent. You need it on a big scale, in a big way, the big marketing to show that it works. And so for us to achieve that, we thought, okay, well, we need to start commercializing this and have others commercialize this in a more industrial way, not just an artisanal activity, right? And so one building block to do that is you need a big you know a big supply of feedstocks, like any you know feed company. You know, you kind of need that minimum order, for example, of 100 tons, right, 50 tons, to kind of get going. So you need a bigger scale.
Speaker 2:And spain was just a great place because it has a huge amount of salt marshes. Um, it has a huge amount of drained salt marshes that could easily be restored to produce feed. Uh, so it has, you know, it has a rich history of using salt marshes for aquaculture, agriculture, livestock, so it's just a fascinating place. It's also in Europe, so, in case for supply chains and industrial production of feed, it just has a bit, you know it kind of ticks all the boxes. So that was one of the original things we looked at there and you know some of the sizes of sites we're working on there. I mean one is a thousand hectares, a contiguous site. So you have that scale and with a thousand hectares producing 30 tons of feed a year per hectare, you know that's a huge, huge amount of feed that can actually allow that commercialization to be facilitated Because you can demonstrate you have access to these, these feedstocks in in quantity and these lands you bought, you leased.
Speaker 1:How like are they abandoned? What's the current that you partner with farmers or with with land steward and owners that own that? What are they doing? What were they doing on it now, like what was the the pre and the now, let's say, in in these thousand hectares?
Speaker 2:yeah, they're all a bit different, but they're all privately owned sites um. Some families have owned these historically, so it's 200 hectares, 2 000 acres um. Most of them actually ran cattle on them, so they they graze cattle so they they used to.
Speaker 1:They got rid of the water, the salty water, tried to raise or grow pasture, which goes well for a while probably, and grazed it with cattle quite extensively, I'm imagining.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, exactly that. Except, yeah, they tried to, so they drained the salt marshes. Sometimes, you know, I think up to the 50s they were draining these salt marshes, tried to do agriculture, but it was still too low-lying, so still a bit too salty. But you know, the cattle still graze on the halophytes, right, the salt marsh species, which you know actually is a really fantastic feed for livestock. And yeah, obviously in the modern day, you know, land is becoming more valuable and and livestock are becoming less valuable. So the economics are changing and some of these, uh, landowners and landowning families have transitioned to maybe brine shrimp aquaculture. Um, you know finfish sea bass some are exploring, you know ecotourism on the land as well. So they're doing sea bass. Some are exploring, you know eco tourism on the land as well.
Speaker 1:So they're doing sea bass and and stuff. So in ponds on, I think there's a video, for sure it's not an an accurate one, but how I fell in love with a fish, um, a ted talk from decades ago, a decade and a half ago probably, um. So they, they stopped, let's say, quote unquote fighting the sea and keep draining it, but actually started looking at how to do some kind of, some form of aquaculture on these former, or still, salt marshes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's a huge activity in Andalusia and southern Spain. You see that all over the place and you know it's fundamentally quite easy because your infrastructure has already been built in the you know 1950s. So you're just using gravity to fill in your ponds. So it's quite a yeah, quite an efficient way to go about it and of course, then you have a blank canvas right. You can integrate your salt marsh restoration with your and blue carbon with your fisheries and aquaculture and agriculture. So it's a good place to undertake those activities.
Speaker 1:And then so you contact these families. You sit at the kitchen table and what do you propose them? Why would they work with you? Or why are you bringing something that they couldn't do by themselves? Why would they work with you, or why?
Speaker 2:are you bringing something that they couldn't do by themselves. Salt marsh restoration is quite a new phenomena. There's not a lot of people doing this in the world. It's not a lot of projects. That's core of what we're actually doing and they've probably been proposed this restoration before and they've probably been proposed this restoration before. But what's unique in our context is that we're combining that restoration and the restoration benefits with productivity, so agriculture and aquaculture. So we're going to these landowners and saying, well, we're going to restore it and make the government happy and the local NGOs happy, but we're also going to actively, regeneratively farm and produce on this land. So it means that you're receiving, effectively, revenue from carbon credits for restoring the area, but also revenue from any productive elements that are happening, whether that's aquaculture or agriculture. So that's really the USP, the, the um, yeah, the, the value, I think, of those integrated models and then what do you do on the land?
Speaker 1:of course, it depends on the context, but like a typical if you have to describe a typical project, uh, you work on and work with, in, in these ecosystems, what, what does it look like and how is it different from what they were doing by themselves?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I think it's. It's always unique. Um again, we're basically layering a carbon project that has its own rules and regulations on top of an agriculture and aquaculture project. So we have to see is one eligible with the other um, and does one align with the other? So on some areas we can develop a carbon project, but that carbon project determines what agriculture and what type of agriculture we can undertake on a site. So if you can imagine restoring a salt marsh and generating carbon credits but then having a huge combine harvester, you know a 40-ton machine, just running through that, then it's not really eligible, is it? So we have to almost engineer it from an eligibility standpoint and that determines what kind of activities you're undertaking, how industrial that's happening. So it's always a compromise, a bit.
Speaker 1:So you start from the carbon piece. That's really the, because that's where the money is at the moment we're talking 2024. Of course things can change but that's where you've identified over the past years.
Speaker 2:The impact side is on restoring and defeat, probably, but the current payments or money to unlock that seems to be in carbon to unlock that are seems to be in carbon exactly, and I think the story is especially with the other stakeholders, with the government, and you know people need to warm up to that idea that we're actually farming salt marshes and ecosystems in order to produce x, y and not just have a few cows graze on it, because that's also farming, but that's a different.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, that's, that's the bad kind of farming, and it's it's terrible to have have cows roaming around the salt marsh because their hooves are not designed for these kind of soils, right, they just destroy everything. So, yeah, I think that's the. Yeah, exactly. It starts with carbon. That facilitates investment, especially in sub-Saharan Africa and other places. That is not necessarily quicker, but it's a sure way to bring in foreign investment into some of these countries that we work in right now, like ghana and elsewhere, and having carbon projects co-finance or finance aquaculture and agriculture. I think it's just a testament to the potential for carbon markets in solving issues right like food security, and so that's exactly what's happening in a project in Ghana, where the carbon project is actually financing the development of aquaculture ponds and regenerative farms, and so that's really the reason why we looked at carbon in the first place is this is a financing mechanism for these activities that are front and center and core to our business model.
Speaker 1:And has that changed over the last years? The importance, or have they matured more? Because we've been talking about carbon, soil carbon, but also blue carbon for quite a while and it always seemed not too good to be be true, but not really delivering and you're saying, no, there's actually money on the table. Now, like is that? Has that shifted over the years of of you being in this space and get it? Does it? Did it get? Is it getting more concrete?
Speaker 2:I think is the question I, I think, so, I think, so, I, I think people have such a negative view on carbon markets and I feel like I should have a reason to be really negative about the carbon markets. But I could, I could go on and on about case studies and other projects I've seen that have used carbon markets to do incredible things, right, um, and I think people always focus on like the two or three guardian articles yeah, of course yeah, that are focusing on.
Speaker 1:You know there's a million types of carbon credits but you're saying there's actual money, there's actual money, there's actual money flowing money to the land, doing stuff absolutely, and.
Speaker 2:But the trick is like, you know you're the due diligence that it requires, you're going to tick all these boxes. I mean, it's the same as opening up a you you know, an iron mine. You know there's a lot of boxes you need to tick to kind of make this big infrastructure project. Some of these are, you know, $20, $30 million projects cost-wise, right. So this takes time, this takes years per project and I think if you can last that long and they start, you know you're on a good way.
Speaker 2:But and that should be it, you know there should be a strong due diligence process, especially when you're dealing with, you know, communal land and social issues as well as environmental issues, right, the margin of error is very, very low. See, certain customers that are especially larger corporates. They're saying you know, we want, we want you to, to give us, you know, 150, 200 000 credits a year, which is a, an insane amount, um, so there's a lot of demand from um, from, yeah, customers, uh, for high quality carbon credits and and on the other side, like the demand for the feed, how is that developing?
Speaker 1:we recovered before like feed and pollution, but let's say feed is is a big lever in aquaculture and also in agriculture. Um, of course, the grazing side of things, like with ruminants, is is fixable. Doesn't need necessarily soy, but the chicken, or like the poultry side and the um, the the pig side of things. There there's an immense amount of protein going into to that to create protein as well. We all know the issues with that, but we also all know, like you mentioned, the minimum tonnage you need to hit the mineral quality like this. This is a? Um, a beast that needs to be fed. Let's say, uh, the global feed industry. How are they warming up to the idea of halophytes going into their feed mixes, because they're always mixes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's been years of conversations and research with industry and I think to bring any new feedstock into that supply chain is very difficult. Some of the biggest obstacles that you have to prove out is scale and demonstrating that, demonstrating the live feed trial results at the standard that they're looking for, and also, I think, getting over some of the mindset shifts. Right, when you're talking about, okay, we're taking this blue feedstock and immediately their thought is okay, there's a lot of salt in that. Right, we can't feed our chickens that much salt.
Speaker 2:And the second one is okay, this is a marine feedstock, it sounds really fancy, it's going to be very expensive and one of these kind of novelty things. And so there's a lot of, yeah, mindset shifts that you need to kind of bring out, because fundamentally, we can remove the salt quite easily. That's not an issue. There's more feedstock from these marine sources. There's millions of hectares of this growing already that can be mobilized at a very cheap cost, even out-competing soy for example, if we're combining when you say mobilized, it simply means harvested and then processed Harvested on existing degraded salt marshes right.
Speaker 2:So it's not a race to the bottom in this feedstock. These are perennials.
Speaker 1:And there's even evidence. Know which means. Is it better for them to be?
Speaker 2:harvested. Yeah, sorry, actually, yeah, I was gonna go there. So, yes, the the science that um, a lot of the research that we saw earlier. Basically, when we studied our sites and said, okay, if we're restoring these degraded salt marshes and flooding them and at the same time, also harvesting these perennials once or twice a year, what is the impact of that harvesting on the plants growing and then the general health and in that process, you're mentioning this 40 ton combine like that that's going to have as negative or more negative impact as a as a cow with their hooves, like, how do you harvest?
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you make sure the, the, not the extraction, but the harvesting actually benefits the whole ecosystem?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's obviously use low impact vehicles right. So these are typical. There's a compromise also with the regulatory requirements. But you know there's a lot of electronic electric equipment out there now that's lower, lower impact and also not so loud. So that's important for our bird wildlife in the area.
Speaker 1:But for example, Never thought about that.
Speaker 2:Interesting, of course course, the sound of harvesting, especially these areas for birds, are like the areas for birds exactly, of course is that yeah but, um, you can, you know it very much shows that the rate of carbon sequestration slows down the more mature these plants are. So it's really advantageous for us, for the soil health as well, to, once these plants hit maturity, is to actually harvest them, giving space for the younger ones to come up. So these are kind of cover crops, they kind of carpet the marsh and they're up to a meter high. So actually thinning it out allows younger growth to grow, which increases the carbon stock, increases that biodiversity. So there's these really unique learnings that have come out of that process of trying to mash together a carbon project with an agroecology project and the compromises between those. Um, but I think none are. None is better than when you look at all the ecosystems. Salt marshes is one that that compromise is is so symbiotic and it's really beneficial for both. Um, I can't think of another ecosystem where that would be the case.
Speaker 1:Um and and yeah, if you would let it like what would be the next phase, if these are sort of the pioneering maybe I'm saying it wrong with the pioneering plants to to first pop up in a in a re-wetted, uh, salt marsh is like the next phase of mangrove forest, like what? How would that evolve?
Speaker 2:yeah, if that, um, it depends where you are. You know there's, when you look at, there's salt marshes from, I don't know, norway down to morocco, and then at that point the mangroves kind of start and they go down to, let's say, well, even partially, south africa. But you know there's an overlap uh. So the closer to the equator you go, that's's primarily, you know, uh, mangroves, um, the rest of the latitudes are more salt marsh, but there's overlaps. So in some ecosystems, like in Sri Lanka, india, mangroves grow with salt marshes, and when you're in Ghana, it's just mangroves, um, and in the.
Speaker 2:Northern hemisphere, like in.
Speaker 1:Norway and Scotland salt marshes. A lot of the same species as diverse or as it gets basically.
Speaker 2:Like very diverse salt marshes, but it doesn't go to more tree-like species, no, no, but I think Senegal is probably the last latitude where you're getting both.
Speaker 1:So the nexus is, and so you're saying for these feed companies, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean in our preferred system what we've done in Bangladesh and in Ghana before we've integrated. So half of the aquaculture pond is mangrove and then on the, on the borders and the berms, it's just salt marshes growing. So we're trying to integrate that as much as possible to have them as many of the benefits as you can in one. So it's interesting when you combine these ecosystems into and we've seen systems before where they have the salt marsh in one pond, you know a hundred square meter, 200 square meter, where it's salt marsh, mangrove and and and seaweeds growing on the bottom of the of the pond, and so you know you can do it and it has, you know, incredible results. Yeah, almost these fully autonomous natural agroecology ponds right, that clearest water that I've ever seen in my life. So it is possible to integrate all three kind of ecosystems in that space.
Speaker 1:And like the aquaculture piece, like have you integrated the farming more of aquaculture animals like the fish side or bivalves into some of these systems, or is that for others to do? How do you see that of aquaculture animals like the fish side or bivalves into some of these systems? What's the or is that for others to to do? How, how do you? How do you see that?
Speaker 2:it depends on the, the projects um. In bangladesh, in ghana, we use a lot of tilapia um mostly because that's, you know, readily available fish and has a good price at the market and they really thrive in those kind of agroecologies. In Spain there's brine shrimp and some other finfish species sea bream for example that also really thrive in those ecosystems. So yeah, it really depends on on the area and then to the feed side.
Speaker 1:We got into this uh um rabbit hole when discussing feed. So you're saying what you're saying to these feed companies. Look, there are millions of actors of, um, basically abandoned salt marshes where halophytes are growing which could be harvested relatively easily, and that gets you to any kind of minimum. So what's holding them and you back let's say to to do that? What's the bottleneck on the feed side of things?
Speaker 2:I think the bottleneck is well the good thing to start off with.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of really peer-reviewed academic research on the application of halophytes in feed from broiler chickens to tilapia to other species. But I'd say the quality of that research multi-year live feed trials you know a specific species and a specific methodologies that simply isn't there yet. So while the data is really indicatively very strong, these feed companies, they do require that level of intensity for the trials really at a commercial grade. So that's one of the challenges there. And so balancing that between the, I would say, yeah, the belief that the feedstocks, the availability feedstock, is there right, that commercial scale is available at the right price point, I think, to prove those three out, that's a real challenge that takes time and, frankly, quite a lot of money as well. And frankly, quite a lot of money as well when you're looking at salmon, having each trial is potentially two years long. It's a time consuming thing. So you know we're doing this with a number of species now, but it's a year away or so before really tried and tested results can be, yeah, ascertained.
Speaker 1:And is it something these feed companies are doing as well and invested like that's their r&d? They're potentially their r&d, but at the same time, it sounds like you're doing it partly out of your own pockets, out of the pockets of the company, um, which is makes sense to a certain extent, but at the same time, let's say, the economic power of a feed company is a bit different, yeah, than a sea marshes restoration company, no offense. So how, how is that the chicken and egg? How are you? How are you getting around that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, we we collaborate with a lot of universities and, you know, aquaculture institutions. On that particular thing, we haven't had much luck in actually convincing a feed company to put in 2 million euros for a salmon trial. I think that's a ways away and I think it's again you need to have those in it.
Speaker 1:So which species are then more relevant? Because maybe I mean salmon is such a high target, of course, because of the economic value and and that, but are you that basically saying maybe tilapia or maybe other species, shrimp like, there are other, they're easier entry points or beachheads that?
Speaker 2:that's true. I mean, like you know, we've done zebra fish right, which is the easiest entry, and, uh, looking at tilapia as well, um, but I think it's just a time, uh, time commitment really, um, really, you have to start somewhere, deliver those results and trying to get other people to adopt or at least engage in those trials in some capacity. So it's something that hopefully in the next year we can have a more industrial trial and pilot the multi-species, multi-formulae, um, and said yeah, to really jumpstart that across a number. Obviously we're also, you know, these halophytes um have been tested for things, like you know feed conversion ratio and improvement of that, um, looking at the bioactives in terms of health, um, but then also in looking at the replacement side of things. So there's so many different trials that we're doing and want to do to really show that this is a multifunction type of feedstock that can address a number of these challenges.
Speaker 1:And then on the harvesting and processing. Are there pieces of the puzzle missing there or is most of that in place? Let's say, a year from now, a fee trial is done and the orders come in. Like what happens then, Like what needs to be still developed or built or not built. Actually, what are the pieces of the puzzle if the demand is created? What is missing or not missing there?
Speaker 2:what is missing, or not missing, there? Well, the good thing is that, um, you know, we've identified the these species as being able to to be ingredients as a whole, so unprocessed, all the way to extremely high-tech bio-refining that some of our partners in denmark do so this is really extract, yeah, so extracting, um, really, micro nutritional properties, properties from these feedstocks, so really high tech, high extraction.
Speaker 2:So the technical value chain is there and the technology is there, from very basic fermentation all the way to industrial biorefining. So it's really scaling those operations and technologies to be able to, you know, satisfy customer demand. So it's really just, you know, multiplying the capacity, the existing capacity of systems.
Speaker 1:And isn't it geography challenge as well? Like, if this processing is in Denmark, does it make sense to drag a lot of watery stuff from Spain to Denmark? Or does it mean to open a processing factory in Spain? And how important is distance here?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's really, really important. We're actually fundraising for a biorefining plant in Spain to be located in this nexus of feedstock producing regions in that area, so that's critical, of course, when you have 80% of that is water and you have a lot of you don't want to drag it around.
Speaker 1:You don't, yeah, and so what would be your main message to investors? And let's say, we do this in a? I like to ask this question. We do this in a. I like to ask this question. We do this in a theater, in a financial capital near you, wherever you, it might be London, it might be New York, might be, let's say, johannesburg or Cape Town I don't know actually, which one of the two. I'm going to get emails about this. It's the financial capital. Let's say we do it in a theater.
Speaker 1:People are probably exposed to these kind of words even for the first time are excited, interested investors that are potentially putting their own money or in charge of other people's money. What would be the main message or the main seed you want to plant? Because we know people forget and the next day at work they might, or at their desk they might be still excited but don't really know what to what to do. What would be the main message you want to plant in in a, in the heads of a group of of people working in the financial world?
Speaker 2:oh, I think what I would say is that the main opportunities the way I see it, and um, and then I would say, the best solutions and best opportunities, and I think the most impactful and potentially most profitable ones, are ones that kill two or three birds with one stone. I think that's in the context of the race to the bottom in terms of resources and our systems and operations and our systems and operations. We really need to look into holistic products and systems that touch on two or three systems and issues but also then generate revenue from multiple sources. That's kind of how I see the industry as a whole. If you can internalize as many of the benefits as possible, commercialize as many of the benefits as possible, then in this kind of cutthroat low game, that's, that's the way to to succeed.
Speaker 1:And if we flip the the table, let's say, and put you on the other side and put you in charge of a billion dollar or billion pound or euro investment fund, um, what would you focus on? I'm not saying looking for exact amounts, but what would be the big buckets you would you focus on? I'm not saying looking for exact amounts, but what would be the big buckets you would invest in if you had those kinds of resources?
Speaker 2:Good question, I think one. I would probably mobilize smaller tickets for tech and R&D, so one to 2 million I think that's a really big gap followed by more conventional investment there. And I would also probably provide specific R&D financing whether that's debt finance or equity to companies in exchange for IP or even shares, just to really get the ball rolling. I think that's one of the biggest obstacles in aquaculture is that scale and those R&D periods for existing tech right and those R&D periods for existing tech right. And then, yeah, I think, lastly, I think the majority of that I would probably invest in supply chains for emerging feedstocks. I know it's a bit biased, but I think that's really where the value is in trying to accelerate that. So I think that's the biggest challenge in the feed side of aquaculture is scaling alternative protein sectors and creating the addressing that chicken and egg right with facilities and infrastructure to the actual availability of feed.
Speaker 1:And how would you invest in that then? Would you like create offtake agreements Like what would be, what would be? What would an investment in alternative feedstock look like to unlock things?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, I think between between creating those funds specific to r&d in exchange for equity um and solely for that purpose of r&d for a two-year period or so and then ideally also facilitating offtakes as much as possible to generate this kind of domino effect of investment. I think that that's so key is to have this active participation as investors to facilitate at least traction from an offtake point of view, from a market point of view. From an offtake point of view from a market point of view, um, especially, you know, the aquaculture sector has quite targeted investors that are very engaged in the in the sector um and again taking a more proactive approach and in those um programs and projects.
Speaker 1:and if you had a magic wand and you could change one thing overnight in in your sector, let's say what would it be? That's a tough one could be anything from consciousness to good offtake agreements, like we've heard almost everything in in the past uh, 320, 320 episodes, so feel free to dream super practical subsidies disappear, or animals outside. We've really heard better flavor, better taste, taste buds on people. I mean the consciousness, obviously yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:I think probably to address a disconnect between you know our fish and where they're grown and the ecosystem, right, like when you go to the store you're buying free range eggs, right, and that's so ingrained in our consciousness, so why not have that with fish, right? Yeah, mangrove tilapia, salt marsh sea bream yeah, mangrove tilapia or salt marsh sea bream, um, to really associate those again and for people to to um, yeah, to rediscover that. That's you know, that's how they grow, that's where they grow and that's where they should be grown, or at least to mimic that as much as we can.
Speaker 1:And how does the ideal aquaculture system? Of course, depending on context, you can do a few if you want, but in your mind looks like just to paint a picture and make it as visual as possible, as we're in an audio medium the, the the ideal system going or yeah for you, like if you just could paint one without any limitations yeah.
Speaker 2:So in places like you know, th and actually a lot of emerging markets in the rest of the world, you have large ponds right.
Speaker 2:Some of these are like the two tennis courts or half a football field and they just go as far as the horizon.
Speaker 2:These large swimming pool sized ponds, a lot of them are dug by hand or by diggers.
Speaker 2:Really, the ideal system is what we've been trying to work on and trying to develop for a long time is to cover as much of that bare soil, the berms and the dikes with coastal blue ecosystem species, species of salt marshes and mangrove forests as much as you can, and then really to have a semi-extensive system of production where you're still prioritizing and upping numbers, but because you are creating these agroecologies and as much of these ecosystems, you're able to push those numbers higher and higher and have lower inputs in terms of feed and otherwise antibiotics as well. So I think that's the ideal system, where you're adding as much of the ecosystem into this industrial blueprint, industrial ponds and trying to to to do that as much as possible, and I think the results speak for themselves. They're already demonstrated in a lot of different countries in the world by a lot of different people that are using those kind of regenerative practices. Um, so I think that's, yeah, that's, that's the ideal system, I think in my eyes, so integrating.
Speaker 1:It's very similar to to agriculture, like how to integrate ecology and biodiversity and life back into into fields in this case, ponds or around ponds and and we'll be surprised how many benefits come from that. Yeah, I want to thank you so much for for your time and and, of course, for the work you do any, any things you're like we're recording this in the in the end of summer, northern hemisphere of 2024, things like exciting things that are coming up, things you're looking forward to, things we should be following your website and socials, etc.
Speaker 2:On um over the next months well, I think, leaving the, the coast behind a little bit, uh we're. We're really excited about, um, some of our desert projects, um, in building these, you know, coastal ecosystems, inlands uh we're. We'll soon leave for for kenya, for for a couple months to to keep going on a project there. So we'll update, update the website and try our best with the socials as well. You know, a couple of weeks ago or I think maybe even a month or two ago, we had a nice documentary on YouTube by Andrew Millison and that was a really good insight into some of the practices in Ghana and Spain. So if you're keen to have more of a visual insight into what we do, those are probably good videos you could probably link as well.
Speaker 1:But yeah, Absolutely Well, we'll do that, and thank you so much for taking the time to come on here and share about your journey.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much. See you later much.
Speaker 1:See you later. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. For the show notes and links we discussed in this episode, check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculturecom. Forward slash posts. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend or give us a rating on Apple Podcasts? That really helps. Thanks again and see you next time.
