Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
335 Cindie Christiansen and Analisa Winther - How a first-time non-profit raised almost €1 million to put 50 top regen farmers in the spotlight
A conversation with Cindie Christiansen and Analisa Winther, founder of Top 50 Farmers, about the narrative around farmers and how it has to change. Less than 12% of farmers in the EU are under 40, and it isn’t seen as "sexy." The stereotype of a 60-year-old white man on a tractor isn’t helping, and no, driverless tractors are not going to take care of our farming anytime soon. So how do we change that? One way is to put the current trailblazers, the pioneering regenerative farmers, in the spotlight by connecting them with resources and with each other, and yes, even with corporations, to turn this into a real movement and to change the public narrative.
Farming can be at least as sexy— probably more so— as being a chef. Do you remember when chefs weren’t famous and didn’t have book deals or Netflix series? That has drastically changed in the last few decades. We need to do the same with farming and farmers. Great, lofty goals—but how do you go about it? How do you finance something like this? Stay true to yourself and make sure you don’t burn out, which wouldn’t be very regenerative. All things we unpack in this episode.
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The narrative around farmers has to change. Less than 12% of the farmers in the EU are below 40. And it isn't sexy. And the stereotype of a 60-year-old white dude on a tractor isn't helping. And no, driverless tractors are not going to take care of most of our farming anytime soon, if at all. So how do we change that? One way is to put the current trailblazing, pioneering regenerative farmers in the spotlight by connecting them with resources and with each other yes, also with corporates is really turning this into a movement that might change the public narrative? Farming is at least as sexy probably more sexy than cooking or chefs. Do you remember when chefs were not famous, didn't have mega book deals and didn't have Netflix series? That has changed drastically in the last few decades. We have to do the same with farming and farmers. Great, lofty goals, but how do you go about it? How do you finance something like this? How do you stay true to yourself and make sure you don't burn out, which wouldn't be very regenerative? All things we unpack in this episode.
Speaker 1:This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast. Investing as if the planet mattered, where we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return. Local communities and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return. Why my focus on soil and regeneration? Because so many of the pressing issues we face today have their roots in how we treat our land and our sea, grow our food, what we eat, wear and consume, and it's time that we as investors big and small and consumers, start paying much more attention to the dirt slash, soil underneath our feet. To make it easy for fans to support our work, we launched our membership community and so many of you have joined us as a member. Thank you, regen ag. That is, camerocom investing in regen ag, or find the link below. Welcome to another episode today with the top 50 farmers. They are scaling healthy soils across europe by showcasing the farmers leading the way through regenerative agriculture.
Speaker 1:Welcome, cindy and analisa hello, hello thank you so much and we always start with a personal question and I will leave it to you to take who wants to start here. But, um, let's say it's safe to say that there are easier career paths out there and somehow you both of you ended up in a place where you spend most of your awake hours thinking, acting, activisting that's not a verb but still around soil. How did that happen? What was the path that led you? And most people say this is a long story. That's perfectly fine, we have time. Whoever wants to kick up their version of the long, winding story, please, because these are never straight roads. How did you end up spending most of your awake hours focusing on soil?
Speaker 2:I am happy to start with that. So my name is Annalisa Winther and I'm one of the co-founders of Top 50 Farmers. And for me, my story started from a very early age because I knew when I wanted to grow up, that I always wanted to have an impact. And then the question becomes what is the best possible way for me to use my gifts to be able to have that impact and to make that happen? And for me, the first answer lied within technology, and there's so much talk about how technology is going to save us and provide the silver bullet solution for what the future can be and what it can hold. So I went to work a lot within the field of let's call it venture capitalism, startup innovation, ecosystem development, looking at how we use these technologies to solve the biggest challenges of our time. And the longer I spent in the industry, the more I realized that there was really a fundamental missing component when it comes to just looking at technology as the solution, which is that it often leaves nature out of the equation and it leaves people out. So there's sometimes this fundamental missing question of ethics, but also these bigger questions of how do we want to live with one another, what values do we want to uphold as a society, what vision do we have? And how do we also incorporate nature in the room as a co-decision maker when we're thinking about where our world is going? So I had a couple of defining moments. One of them led me to losing my job and really having to take a step back and go. What am I doing next in my career? And it was in those moments that I sat and I revisited the Sustainable Development Go goals I'm sure most of your listeners know those and I thought, well, where do I fit into this? I know these are the big challenges we have, but where do I fit in? And I no longer really believe that technology is the only answer. So what else can I do? Where else can I go? And underneath that I had this huge aha moment and it was a true come to Jesus, change my life. Goosebumps all over your body, sensation where I went oh my God, I love food.
Speaker 2:My passion for food had been growing as a diner, also living in the Copenhagen food scene, which has some of the best restaurants in the world, and I was like, could I make my passion my profession, or would that be dangerous, like a person who loves to take photos, who thinks they want to be a professional photographer, but in the end of the day, that's not actually the right thing to do because you lose that passion. But I explored it and the more I explored it the more I connected the dots that food is actually at the base of everything and everything. For me, food, and the way I define it, is everything that comes from the earth and goes back to it. So that is fiber, it's medicine, it's what we eat, it's what we make our buildings out of, it's everything.
Speaker 2:If you've seen my big fat Greek wedding, I always joke that the dad's like every word is Greek. You give me a word and I tell you how it's Greek I'm like everything is food. And when you understand the power of food and the power underneath that, your view as a consumer changes, because you realize how much power you hold multiple times a day when you eat and in every purchase that you make, but also an understanding that when we solve for food, we really do solve for all of those challenges and it still feels like a really good, well-kept secret. I don't think most of the world has woken up to how powerful food is and how much you and all of our listeners are really a part of this revolution that's on its way and that I do think will transform how we think and interact with the world. What about you, cindy? What's your origin story?
Speaker 3:Yeah, what is my story?
Speaker 3:So well, I started actually my life on the countryside, with my family also being in farming, and I was brought up with every home-cooked meal you can imagine, which has also, of course, shaped my interest in food and also how food is actually grown. For years I went traveling to different countries because I was very excited about food culture, and later I actually decided to go to Copenhagen Business School, very far from soil. I had some idea about pursuing a corporate career and I just remember one day being at the office thinking, oh my God, this is boring, do I really want to spend my life on this? And I decided actually to seek out food startups, and that led me to a journey where I started my own gastro agency, where I took people and companies to Copenhagen and to farmland to see how we do it here. I have to remember this was a time where there was a big excitement about the Nordic gastronomy. Chef became known Nobody knew Denmark before that and suddenly we got a gastronomy hotspot and everybody wanted to travel to Copenhagen right.
Speaker 1:Talking about timing.
Speaker 3:Talking about timing. Exactly At the same time, we have had a very strong organic movement in Denmark, so there was a big interest in farming, chef food, everything in Denmark at that time and back in 2018, I was invited to a gathering of farmers and chefs in Copenhagen and there I heard about regenerative agriculture and I heard about a nonprofit organization called Zero Footprint and from there I was like do we have this in the Nordic country? Who is leading this movement here? And no, everybody says nobody's leading that one here. I'm like, okay, I want to understand, extend that version to see how that can actually work in hospitality, like work in denmark with hospitality leveraging, um, the chain for agricultural transformation. Yeah, so now I feel very much that I'm back with my roots and we are facing so many challenges and I could not imagine spending my time on anything else than figuring out how we actually scale region egg and empower the incredible farmers on the ground and I think, oops, sorry, I think, that's no.
Speaker 1:No, sorry, go ahead On Zero Footprint just to because we have had Anthony Mint on. But for people that didn't listen to that shame on you. Go on, not now, but like at some point, just in a few words, like role and hospitality in regeneration. What attracted you so much to that approach, let's say, and then made you bring that basically to the Nordics?
Speaker 3:So, first of all, as I said, I founded my gastro company years ago right because I was so fascinated about food and chefs and understanding from Anthony also, who I knew around that time how hospitality and chefs can actually help not only open new markets but also transform agriculture and we can get more into that later on, how it actually works.
Speaker 3:But that was an eye opening for me. Like I was like yes, chefs has power, now they have a voice for change and we can definitely do that in the Nordic countries too. So again, again, my passion for food and my network I mean I had a huge network around that time, also from hospitality and I thought, like this can absolutely work in the Nordic countries too. So I talked to Anthony about it and we found a way to extend that model. It's very different working in the US and the Nordic countries with farming and also just how you speak about farming, so we do it on our own way, but the idea is the same with partnering up with chefs restaurants, bars, canteen then redirect 1% funds into our restore fund and then farmers can apply for grants for different projects.
Speaker 1:Super cool.
Speaker 2:Sorry, Annalisa I was just going to say. I think so many people start the rabbit hole through eating an excellent, delicious meal and then thinking like food's so cool or food is a solution to a lot of the challenges we face into that, the more you realize that at the basis of food is soil, which I think is deeply connected to regenerative farming practices and agriculture, that it starts with the soil and realizing how valuable that is in everything we do and both Cindy and I reached that conclusion the more we researched, the more we read, the more we worked in the space, we were like wow, scaling healthy soils, really making sure that that is the way that we set our industry standard is going to be so critical for the future, and that's one of the biggest places where we want to spend our time and invest our energy.
Speaker 1:And I'm still surprised, though, that how many people don't make that connection. Even they love amazing tasting food, like the amount of diners, people that go to these restaurants, even chefs as well, but of course you have a way better exposure there that don't necessarily make the connection between flavor and what's on the plate and the health of the soil, like do you feel that's changing or am I over, over overreaching here? Like that's not necessarily like what is needed or what is happening there in terms of the hospitality space, waking up to it starts way earlier than the crate of food being delivered to your door.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think the whole question comes down to like how we lost the connection to nature overall. We do simply not understand that food and nature is connected and that is what we have to change. And talking about chef, they have this enormous opportunity to connect with many guests every day. And talking about this which is also why you see now on many restaurants in Copenhagen that they actually it's the farmer they're're explaining like it's not the menu anymore, it's the farmer and then the menu, which is, of course, what we love to see right more focus on the farmer and where things are and how it's grown. So that way, I do think that hospitality and chefs have this incredible power, not only for the market, but also for actually bringing that connection back to nature with people.
Speaker 1:And what are the most surprising ways you've seen them doing that, taking that because there are people sitting at your table. They want to choose, maybe want to hear a bit of a story, but not everyone is always extremely interested in where the eggs exactly come from, or these asparagus, etc. Just a bit like in the supermarket, in a very different level, but you have a few seconds. What has been the most surprising way you've seen with a chef or somebody in a hospitality space to play that role without being the annoying like do you know where everything comes from? You don't want to scare people off as well, because they're there to have a nice lunch or dinner.
Speaker 3:It's really about the choices you make when you buy your food. Like alone, that action of actually buying the ingredients from local, organic, regenerative farmers is a great place to start. That does not take on a whole story necessarily, but you already made the change and, as I again I said, like the menu cards has really changed over just the last two years in copenhagen, where now it's it's so not so much about the dish, it's really about the farmer, which is a big change, I think there's either spreading as well.
Speaker 1:Sorry, there we go. But like, because? Is that? Because it's amazing, but if it stays in copenhagen, that's a bit of a shame. Like, do you, do you see it already at other places? Like, definitely, copenhagen is leading on the culinary front, but is this being, in the best sense of the word, copied elsewhere? Do you see that in New York, for instance, as well?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, I was just in Spain and I went to like a wine bar kind of place and on the digital menu card when you scan the QR code, they have a picture of each farmer next to each dish, so it literally gives a reference point and then when you went to go, pull the tap of the wine you could get there was a photo of the winemakers behind that. So really connecting people to place and that interface of really looking at restaurants as a platform for connection and I really see the investment in hospitality happening first with the employees. If you invest in taking the waitstaff and the chefs out to a farm and meeting the farmer and having this field trip, it completely changes how they think and how they feel about the food. And that's not just in the fine dining kitchens, that's also in professional kitchens or catering kitchens where people might be working more on an hourly wage and they may not be like I'm here to be a top chef, but this is my job. They completely change in how they talk about food because they have built those connections up and down the supply chain.
Speaker 2:So I do think there's a movement happening everywhere around this and Top 50 Farmers was very much born out of this realization from chefs going well, we've had the spotlight for quite some years now, but we also know that our food would be nothing, nothing without the high quality ingredients. The difference of a tomato with a little olive oil and salt I know you're in Italy like that's unbeatable, that's very foodgasmic in its own way, versus something that doesn't come and isn't grown in that delicious way. So there's always this chase for flavor and when you really look into what creates flavor, of course that comes back to how it's grown in the soil and to war. We've seen that in wine, forever, right, and even more in specialty coffee. Now there's an understanding of the place-based context and I see that happening with tomatoes, cucumbers, everything else that they're getting branded. They're becoming known. There's a lot more rich knowledge there that helps people to understand how important the base is, which is our soil, for making great tasting food, but also for changing our world.
Speaker 1:And so why the top 50 farmers? I mean, you're both doing work, you were both doing work that definitely wasn't done yet. In a sense, you, you could have done that for another few decades and still, uh, only scratched the surface in in a good way, but this is a marathon. What made you for both of you and please pick who goes first to say, okay, we need to put the farmers in the spotlight. We need to because we have heard these, um, these comments, I think, before as well, of course, great, the chef's getting all the chef's table episodes, etc. Where's the version for the farmer, etc. We've heard many people say it, but very few people act on it. Honestly, this is not a comment, but this is just, I think, reality.
Speaker 3:What made you say, okay, we're going to spend considerable time on putting farmers on stage, stage, basically in the spotlight on farmers okay, so top 50 farm is a really good question because it's actually uh, the whole idea of top 50 farmers was rooted on the danish countryside and it comes from in 2022 where astanor venture, who has always also been on your podcast, I, I believe, actually the same year.
Speaker 1:Shout out to Eric.
Speaker 3:Exactly. They brought together a mix of chefs, investors, farmers, thought leaders in this space for a two-day summit in Copenhagen I'm sorry, in Denmark and there we had to talk about or explore the bold ways of scaling regenerative agriculture, and I was lucky to get invited to speak about our work in Foodprint Nordic, and during one of the breakfast sessions, a new idea emerged and it was all about how shift had become voices for change, build powerful personal brands that have actually elevated their influence, also diversified their income and so forth. And we talked about like farming is ready to do the same. Now it is about time to do something. And from that moment, there was this shared and collective idea of Top 50 Farmers, and that was born around that table and, with my experience from Food for the Nordic and also working with farmers, it just made a lot of sense to take that lead and build up to 50 farmers.
Speaker 3:And, lucky me, I had earlier met Annalisa and we have done a project together. And yeah, so I invited Annalisa out for dinner. And yeah so I invited Annalisa out for dinner. We talked about the idea and I knew she would bring so much value to the project and asked if she wanted to build this and lead this with me. And yeah, the rest is history. And now we are building a project that has, of course, much deeper roots now, because one thing is, as you said, you have an idea, but you actually build it out and determine on how things will be on this project. That takes a lot of work. It's not getting the idea only, it's actually carrying these activities and the whole mission.
Speaker 2:I'm laughing at what you said, cohen, because it's so true that a lot of people have had this idea. It isn't particularly novel to think about. How do we put farmers in the spotlight? How do we build household brand recognition similar to celebrity chefs? We often say if you walk down the street and pick a random stranger and ask them who's your favorite chef or chef you like, they can name a bunch. We've created the Food Network and this and that there's a lot of notoriety there. But if you then ask them who's your favorite farmer much less who is a farmer you know they cannot name a single farm name. So this is something that we've heard in our circles very often of like why don't we have a similar renaissance?
Speaker 2:30, 40 years ago, being a chef wasn't that cool. Now it's something that a little kid is going to write down and say when I grow up, I want to be a chef. And we've heard stories of farmers who say they wrote down as a little kid when I grow up, I want to be a farmer. But then they were almost shamed away from that profession not being a solid thing they could follow because people didn't think you could make good money You're going to be blamed for climate change. It's backbreaking work with no vacation. There's a lot of stories.
Speaker 2:We tell ourselves that farming isn't a good profession and that's simply not true.
Speaker 2:We know how vital and important it is and how much the farmers are superheroes in many capacities and in Europe, particularly where Top 50 Farmers is grounded for the next two years is less than 12% of farmers are under the age of 40.
Speaker 2:So we know we're facing a generational crisis. We know we need to welcome more young people into this space, and that starts with the stories we tell and how we brand it. And it's not that hard of an exercise, because there are so many cool farmers out there. We just don't know who they are, and a lot of farmers aren't necessarily social media people who are going to go talk about themselves and showcase everything. So that's where we come in being able to do that work and to be able to spread the word about what they're already doing and, in many cases, have been doing for quite some time. So huge kudos to Cindy for sitting in that room where an idea came up at a conference and then raised her hand and been like I can make this happen and I'm going to put the team together to make it happen and bring it forward, and we'll do it underneath Foodprint Nordic's umbrella.
Speaker 1:And where do you look for inspiration in this? Of course, through the chef's movement that became famous. But there's, like, what are places where you look for guidance? Not that there are playbooks here or guides or anything, but how do you elevate a whole profession? Basically, that has a lot of interesting, good stories, but maybe it's not as easy to make a Netflix series because you can just sit in the kitchen and film. You need a full year, basically, which I think adds a lot of complexity. So where do you look for guidance and ideas to say, ok, how do we elevate? And how did you end up with the focus on the top 50? Like a list and not a competition, but like a list of recognition? I think what was the reasoning to get to that?
Speaker 2:I would love to start so. Inspiration what a great question. Everything, a list of recognition, I think. What was the reasoning to get to that? I would love to start so. Inspiration what a great question. Everything can be inspirational.
Speaker 2:I think the first thing we look to for inspiration is nature and how we build an ecosystem with the farmer at the center. And we have five core values at Top 50 Farmers. One of the first is what are we doing to really support the farmer and what do they want? It's not just about us coming in saying this is a good story and there's more to the project just beyond the recognition or the storytelling aspect. That's the tip of the spear. But we also know that when we have momentum, when you do something like, say, here's 50 farmers who are great role models, and diverse role models at that, because it's really important that we showcase diversity in this industry and diversity is core in healthy, resilient ecosystems then how do we capitalize on that momentum? And we can speak a lot more to the other two pillars of Top 50 Farmers, which centers around connecting them to different decision makers and corporate leaders, as well as to the nonprofits, providing local resources on the ground and different learning opportunities.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot that comes with being part of this recognition program. The other thing is that we didn't want to be a ranking, because it's not about who's number one and there is no number one spot. That creates competition, and competition can be a little healthy. But again we're here to say how do we just like a rising tide lifts all boats. So if every year, we can identify 50 role models, talk about what they're doing, that inspires people all around the world to be like oh, if they can do it, I can do it too. Or actually, my neighbor in this country is doing something cool. I just learned about their case. I'd never heard of it. We can connect and learn from each other.
Speaker 1:So the goal is to consistently find more people who are following this.
Speaker 2:So every year there are 50 new faces, new voices Exactly, and then we build a network and almost think like an alumni program, but you're able each one teach one or to spread the word, and for us it's both farmers who have been working on the regenerative transition for at least a year. Meaning am I right with that, cindy? It's at least a year that they've been in the process of transitioning, or they could have been doing this for many years. So we want to recognize that this is a journey and there isn't a moment where you arrive when it comes to doing regenerative agriculture. It's a constant way of thinking and living and doing the work.
Speaker 1:So Probably as dangerous when somebody says, especially a farmer like I'm done Like this is as far as I've regenerated.
Speaker 2:It's like a philosophy. It raises a few flags, so that's definitely key. And then the last thing I'll say is there's inspiration all around us in terms of what are industries doing that we can take the best principles from, and that's solid. We see ourselves as connecting the regenerative ecosystem within Europe on one platform to be this one-stop shop. So if you come interested in looking at the profile of one farmer, then you might learn about what's going on in your country and then you might connect locally. And it's creating a rabbit hole for people to go down by centralizing all that information in one place, which doesn't really exist right now.
Speaker 1:Your podcast is a good source if you want to comb through and see a lot of initiatives, yeah, but not if you're new in this space. I think accessibility is not our biggest virtue and that's fine, but then there needs to be other places, like if you Google RegenEgg or you Google Connection, food and Health, and then you find easily accessible but not too simplified ways to get involved, to learn more. I think there we need way more of those entry points and then the entry points to all the different rabbit holes that we have.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I can also build a little bit on that. When we talk about inspiration, well, the farmers are also the inspiration. That is why the project is built like it is. As analisa said, we could, we could have created a project with what we want, but the whole idea of actually creating this nomination that will open on november 11 is to understand, through those application questions, what, what is it, what are the barriers out there, what do you need? And then we can create a platform of opportunities, not the other way around, which I think is so important right now, that we don't come top to down but ground up. So that's something that is really important for us and why this nomination is going to be so important for us to actually be able to build what we aim for. So well said, cindy.
Speaker 1:And how are you going to select? Because I'm imagining and of course we're going to try to make some noise, and you as well from November 11th on, let's say, you get 500 nominations, just naming a number. I don't know if you have a goal there, but how do you then select it down to? Or how do you select the 50? It's not a ranking, but you still have to select, make a selection of a bigger group, potentially, or probably. How is that going to work?
Speaker 3:yes, so good question. First of all, we want to be as transparent as possible when it comes to this electing and in the beginning we have found a group, a panel, you can say a selection committee that exists of scientists, nonprofit founders, farmers, storytellers, who will be voting for those 50 farmers, will be voting for those 50 farmers and all farmers will have to do the application questions for us to understand who they are, how they practice and what is their vision. So some of those questions will be scored and out of those questions, the selection committee will select the 50 farmers based on these criterias and the scoring of those, and we'll also like again, as I said, the nomination is all about also gathering data for us actually to be smart about this project and to provide value for the space.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just building on that. It's so when we think about building regenerative organizations too, because this is also us walking the talk in terms of we're interested in this when it comes to what's happening in the field. But also, how do we build organizations that reflect these principles of life and how we maximize life recognition program that would really support farmers in their needs right now, knowing that's going to evolve, based on the context. So how to be context specific as a European organization, knowing that what a farmer needs in Greece might be slightly different than one in Finland? You know we first have to collect some information, but also that's something a lot of people in the industry are looking towards is understanding what are really the barriers farmers have right now. Where do they really need help and support. And if we serve as an aggregate platform to be able to broker between people who sit in corporate offices and those who are working in the fields to connect the dots, then how can we first figure out what farmers need to then go to these other stakeholders and say can you put this financial product together or could you? You know we could do this with procurement, whatever it might be. So once a farmer is selected to be part of the top 50, they join this recognition program and in that we're going to have different opportunities that provide connection to market, that provide connection to financing and it's going to depend, based off of what we're seeing in the data, that the farmers are saying hey, for me to really take the next step or to grow my business in whatever capacity. These are the pain points I'm facing. We also know that peer-to-peer connection is really important and having a support system is important.
Speaker 2:Many of these farmers are likely islands of regeneration in their own right. Some communities have fully adapted this as a way of being, but in other places you're that lone wolf who's experimenting right now and slowly convincing all your neighbors who are constantly peering over the fence to see what's going on. So you become part of a greater network and if we know in tipping point theory, if we can get 20% of the population doing something, it becomes a predominant idea and then you go. You don't have to go for the 100%. So it's a little bit the role we play, but that's very much looking at.
Speaker 2:Where do we create sessions for learning and growing in the areas that farmers right now are saying, hey, this is the need we're feeling in the industry and giving ourselves the flexibility as an organization to adapt that every year based on what that next cohort is feeling and thinking and seeing, and over time we're going to get more information that we're going to be able to be like hey, this is what's going on.
Speaker 2:The other thing we've often heard is that right now, a couple farms are very well known within the space, but what else is there and what other examples are there that are profitable but that we haven't heard about yet because they're flying under the radar? And through the open nomination, we hope to also identify more farms to then look at on the national level or the regional level. How do we connect these dots and build strong ecosystems of support or plug them into nonprofits that provide education or technical assistance or something else along those lines? So it is a big effort in ecosystem building and thinking from the farmer first what's needed to scale this movement and to scale those healthy soils across Europe.
Speaker 1:And then asking the obvious question how do you fund this ecosystem building, which is often tricky to do? You've been very successful as a first-time nonprofit not completely first-time, of course, with Cindy, our background there as well but I think many people would be interested in some lessons learned there and how to approach that. I mean, if you've been on the road fundraising, it's not been easy, but definitely it paid off, let's say. So. How was that process and how did you go about it? Because it's great to start with this idea. There's a lot of work to be done, maybe not a lot of money in that sense in that space. I mean you're going to ask the farmers to register, or something like that. So how do you go about fundraising and funding an effort like this, and multi-year, because this is not something you want to do in a few months and that's it.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Yeah, it's a really good question, this. Actually, we have to go back to 22 again when Annalisa and I we start to talk about this project because it goes all the way back then talking about, first of all, what are the values of top 50 farmers, what is it that we want to give to the space, and then we went back and talked about okay, so these are our values, this is how we want to live with this project. How do we then go out in the world and find the money that we need and Annalisa has been such a big inspiration on this um, you can also build a little bit on that and elisa um, but we are still discussing so often what is our values? Where do we go to get the money? Because that goes all back to how we are so I mentioned all the big chemical industries.
Speaker 3:You went, you went to them of course, like every one of them right easy peasy, easy peasy then done exactly.
Speaker 3:Um, no, actually in the beginning, and alice and I thought that we would actually have corporate sponsoring because we were like, oh, they would be, they would love that and they did right, they, they loved the idea and they could spotlight their logos and all that Also, of course, we really fast found that, well, we have an agenda here and we really want to provide value to the space. We cannot do it like that, so we had to actually go back again, which is also why it has taken time, which is also like something you have to adjust with and talk about.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So you went to the corporate side first because you thought with all these big commitments they've been doing, they would love to get on board and they probably love to have the first two or three meetings and then, when the moment came to put some real money on the table, it was a bit more difficult. Is that what I hear?
Speaker 3:yes, I know. I mean I. I definitely think we could get the money. The question is like can you keep your own values aligned with their agenda? Because we have our agenda and we needed to make sure that, when we go out with this project, that we are giving the space the value that it needs. And we could not do that. So we have to go back, have conversations again about how we want to do it and maybe you want to build a little bit from there, Annalisa.
Speaker 2:I mean, this was when you talk about building deep roots. Our deep roots that we first established were our vision and our values. And this was part of when Cindy and I had that dinner and she's like okay, there's this idea, it's top 50 farmers, what do you want to come on? And I was like I mean, I've never done a nonprofit. My background is in corporate venture capitalism and dealmaking. I work as a professional business matchmaker connecting investors to great new ideas.
Speaker 2:And the main thing I've seen over the last decade in terms of why deals fall apart either pre or post investment is there is an alignment on the vision and the values. And I always have a red flag when I go to conferences and meet people and I'm like so what's your vision for the future of food? And they're like I don't know. I'm like what do you mean? You don't know. You have to know what you're building into. And again going into that context. But I told Cindy, if we're going to engage, the first thing we have to do together as co-founders is understand the vision for what we want to create and our values for how we're doing it, and not just what we have to give but the context within which we exist, which goes back to what's needed by the corporates right now who are trying to fulfill those commitments, what's needed by the farmers, what's needed by the nonprofits. We exist between all these stakeholders, but we also need to know who we are, because if you don't know what you stand for, then you'll fall for anything. And once we had those values established originally we were like, yeah, corporates make sense, they also often sponsor these kinds of things and that feels like a really easy route to follow. But the deeper we went, the more we realized that we wouldn't be able to be true to our values if we followed that, because you get different interests involved and it became really clear that we needed to get unrestricted funds or unrestricted grants to be able to make this vision a reality and to give us the freedom to operate with integrity to the farmer first and foremost.
Speaker 2:So if you think about it like you want to build a skyscraper, you need to dig a deep foundation first to be able to build tall, and that's exactly what we did with Top 50 Farmers. It was a lot of months. I think we spent six months first just talking between the two of us. Then we went out and started fundraising, realized we had to pivot, and Cindy and I hadn't taken a salary at this point, so it had been like a year to a year and a half before we got the first money in and were able to start paying ourselves, which I know many founders can attest to.
Speaker 2:And it's such an interesting journey when you're doing nonprofit work, because normally if you're doing fundraising you're giving equity or a part of your company away in exchange for a dollar amount. In this case we're just convincing people on the dream of this is what should exist and the impact we want to create, which is almost a harder sell. And thank God there are great foundations who are supporting the regenerative economy and the regenerative movement who said we totally get this and we see it, and even for them they were like for these technologies or other initiatives to succeed, you need to sow the environment that makes it possible, and uplifting farmers and then connecting them to these different stakeholders to support the growing of the movement is only going to help. So there needs to be a place both for things that have that ROI, where it's like very measurable, classic, what we see when it comes to investment, but also things that are moving the culture, and that's, I think, a lot of what we're doing is changing hearts and minds, one at a time, and getting people connected, which of course, takes time, but it's really essential in making this happen.
Speaker 2:Anything else, cindy.
Speaker 3:Well said. No, I think it's well said so much. There's a reason why we don't launch before now because we have taken the time, and I also think that goes back also to the regenerative mind of doing things. We don't have to rush everything. It's okay to take a little bit of time and still be ambitious about what you want to achieve, right. So it's taking some time and now we're there and I feel we have such a solid foundation to stand on, which, of course, is only making this even more fun, maybe just to give a shout out to the investors.
Speaker 2:We do have. Asnore provided the original seed funding to get us first started to have these conversations, and then we've since received funding from the Doen Foundation out of the Netherlands, avena from Switzerland and Nest from Belgium. We're still looking for around 300,000 euro. So we decided to launch without fundraising the full budget amount. But we knew that the money would come and the right people listening to this would come forward and be like, yes, this is something we want to see and something we believe in. And again, knowing we want to maintain that integrity, we also do look at how can we build other relationships. So we talked about one how do we find these 50 farmers to have in the recognition program? But our intention is also to set up mastermind groups, because we've certainly been in lots of rooms where corporate decision makers gather and there's next to no farmers at that conference or in that room and they're a key part of us talking about what are we doing in the future of regenerative agriculture. So how do we put together working groups that combine these decision makers with farmers who say, hey, I have ideas and they're so full of ideas there just isn't the space to meet to do that. So looking at how we can facilitate that, and that would be a corporate membership where corporations can support in that capacity versus giving us the full funding. And then the other thing we're looking at too is how we can put a spotlight on the nonprofits who are doing the work to support these farmers. So on the Top 50 Farmers website we have an open database of nonprofits.
Speaker 2:So if you went in and were able to say, oh, here's what's happening in Austria, let me look at what nonprofits are there, and this is a list we're building now. So if you are a nonprofit, please do let us know. We'd love to bring you on board with a membership. But that's kind of like placing an ad in the yellow pages, being like here we are supporting new members. If you want to plug into your country's ecosystem, these are the organizations you would definitely want to be connected with, who are working with those farmers and connected there, because we know it's all of these connections that help us to build the fabric. And a quote Cindy and I have been super inspired by is Martin Luther King, who said those who love peace must organize as well as those who love war. And that's kind of where we are now being like. How do we organize ourselves so that we can really do impact at scale? And that's just identification and coming forward and meeting and structuring that information and building those connections.
Speaker 1:And how easy was it to to? I'm not saying convincing, because these are funders that are very well known in the space. So absolutely congrats with with those names to do this longer term, because I don't know what you pitched with, but it's like a two year project, a four year project, because it's not something. We run this, this competition it's not a competition. We run this list and then we hope that during that list we find enough money to do another one and then, like sort of getting this sort of fundraising threadmill, which is super difficult to get out of you, I think, clearly took a path of let's make sure we have enough to do a longer one at least so we can actually build the foundation. How did it land with these kind of funders and in those discussions and conversations? Because as a new non-profit, that might be tricky yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:We decided very early on that we had the minimum of two years for funders, as you said, like the, the typical nonprofit, they run for money all the time, like you never get anything done and you get all burned out and stressed out. I mean, this is not a short run, this is an ultra marathon. We are in right. So a minimum of two years now and that's still very little. But I also understand that funders want to see that you can actually deliver what you promised. So it's for two years now and then our dream is, of course, to lock down funding for several years along the way so we can actually deliver on our promises.
Speaker 3:I think Annalisa also mentioned before. Like, of course, it takes time before you actually get a salary, and I think that's one of my biggest concerns in this space is that often when you launch something in an impact space, people often think you work for nothing. It's like, considered as you should only have a little salary to survive, and I think that's something and Alisa and I, we do not want to work on that premise. I think that's not what we need to attract the greatest mind to the space or to the impact space overall. We need to change that, and the same goes for the nonprofits. We should not work for a minimum salary. I think what is really needed now is people devoting time for a better future, so that also goes when we fundraise. We are very, very honest about that, like the other way of doing things is the recipe for a burnout, which is not what we need right now which we've seen many times.
Speaker 1:But it's a tricky one to get across with with funders. I've seen it a few times where they loved something and then didn't fund it because of the salary, which wasn't even outrageous, but a salary of someone involved, and those who are listening probably knows which one. But, um, like that's, that's a tricky one. Like to hold your foot because at some point they might say, oh, actually we would love to do it, if only you would. And then like how do you? And you're not paying yourself already since a while? Like how do you make sure you dance that dance?
Speaker 3:let's say it is to stay true to your values, and both Annalisa and I we come with years of experience and we have also had to argue for what we wanted, you can say, but I think for the funders we have now they also understood that and I think it's also something they valued in the end. But I think it's down to like. You need to keep your values aligned and both Annalisa and I, we are not like, we do not want to burn out. We want to have a successful life with our families while also do better things for the world, and we know we can do that, and to that you need a salary, and you don't need a minimum salary.
Speaker 2:Amen. This is a topic I'm so passionate about because I've seen it happen in every sector with every entrepreneur who's trying to start something new, and it's so easy to stay in a scarcity mindset in the beginning and in my executive leadership coaching practice I work with a lot of founders on this because you need the money, you're getting to a point of desperation and you really want to do the work you're passionate about. It feels like a calling that you're meant to bring into the world and it's really disappointing to have someone say we don't want to pay you or have to say no to that when you have something dangling right in front of you. So it's definitely an element of faith that comes in, as well as staying true to your laurels that you're going to hold your vision and values, knowing that if that funder isn't willing to pay you to do the work, then they're probably not going to be the right funder to have in your boardroom later on, because they're not valuing you and that's a hard pill to swallow because it feels promising. Because it feels promising, but it's so key in the process of understanding your worth and owning your worth and knowing that we all need to step up and saying like this work is really important and that this is something that we want to see come to pass. So the other thing I'll mention is that Cindy and I, as co-founders, are constantly having conversations on how are you and this is not something you do in the beginning and ends. It's like a constant check-in of are we building where we want to go? How are you feeling? Are the needs met in different capacities, because if we're not strong, then we can't be strong for everything else.
Speaker 2:So I think it's I see a huge underinvestment in our industry in general and again, I came from tech before, where investors spend a lot of money on the teams. They invest in understanding that. It's like sports. So if you're buying a basketball team, you're not just going to spend millions of dollars on that and then not invest in a good training facility, good food, a great place for them to sleep. You're going to make sure that they have everything they need to show up the best they can on the court, because that's going to make you more money.
Speaker 2:They're the human capital you're dealing with, and so often we invest in the idea or the technology, ignoring the human capital and resources that go into it, and then somehow expect them to perform to this insane degree. So I think there is a cultural shift here and that starts also again same, with us just demanding different food and saying I want to eat this. If you raise your voice, then it's going to start making a difference, but it requires us to hold strong, 100%. It's going to start making a difference, but it requires us to hold strong, 100%.
Speaker 3:Well said.
Speaker 1:It's a very interesting push. At the same time. You see, in the tech space of course I'm not saying there's more money around, but the margins and the exits and the potential IPO there's more dollar signs, let's say, in people's eyes, so maybe they're willing to spend. And the sport, of course, as well. The potential upside is not unlimited. But almost in food and ag we've seen that just less, and I think maybe in the chef side as well. Like there's a limit of what you can pay your staff and then as well as your suppliers and keep it sort of affordable at the table. Like that tension because yeah, it's not a software product you can of affordable at the table. Like that tension because, yeah, it's not a software product, you can just duplicate 10 000 times and it's pretty much the cost structure is the same. Um, but I completely agree on not underselling and not undervaluing the work and just expecting people to do it basically for free and running into a burnout. Um, because we've seen that many times and there are the costs, especially as funders. There is space Because all of these funders have space to do more if they wanted to.
Speaker 1:This is my last check I ever write and barely getting to a few K. These are well-funded funders. Let's say so. It's an interesting discussion to have, but yeah, I can imagine the tension there at the table as well. Let's take this money and let's do it, whatever they say, because we need it. And let's take truth to that and say no, we are not going to take it because we need other conditions. It's not an easy position.
Speaker 2:This is why the work we're doing as people working on the future of food and region ag is transformational. Because, even how you just framed that, the tech industry is measuring one aspect of ROI, which is the dollar amount, and we know that our work is centered on clean water, healthy soils, healthy air, connection to family relationship, your health and well-being, your sleep and, cindy and I measure that as part of the project Are you sleeping well? Even a simple question of that's related to the health of our overall organization and, to be honest, are you measuring the eternity we can talk?
Speaker 1:about that in one second. I'm going to just finish this point. Organization and to be honest, are you measuring the internally and with the farmers?
Speaker 2:We can talk about that in one second. I'm going to just finish this point. But yes, we do think a lot about this in terms of what are we really measuring as the health of the organization, and also knowing, to be honest, that Cindy and I both run our own businesses or organizations, in addition to running Top 50 Farmers, as does most of our team, or organizations in addition to running Top 50 Farmers, as does most of our team. So it's not 100%, it's not to say not sustainable, but it's also understanding that to get to where we are, we had other activities supporting us and funding this, and that we were working on it. To get there, we didn't exist in a space where it was a year and a half of.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit tricky, it was challenging, no matter what, and there are so many lessons learned. But it is also recognizing that you have different needs in your life beyond just the work, and you aren't only the work. You have your family, you have your friends, you have your other passions or whatever it might be. So how do you create an organization that really allows for that? And it's challenging because it's not our societal norm, but we fight every day to be like okay, how are we doing it? And same with farmer mental health. That's been a big thing we've been considering. I'll let Cindy talk more about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the wellbeing of like also the farmers, is so important and it's like when we have done the application questions, that's one of the questions right, how do you actually consider your own wellbeing? Because if we get a lot of application that is actually stating that the well-being is like really bad out there. We need other kind of resources, we need to look at different barriers, and so it goes in all like from the farmers to everybody supporting the space. We need to thrive, just as the nature and everything else.
Speaker 3:Then for me, it makes no sense to do a project like that if Annalisa and I are like struggling to make it work and it's not fun anymore. But of course, there's also a reality, which is why we're also looking into like how do we actually create some kind of revenue stream around this project? So we're not 100% only reliant on foundation. I think it's going to be a combination and we will see how that's going to develop. But I think there's going to be a combination and we will see how that's going to develop. But I think there are so many changes happening right now how we do business, how we understand wealth and how we lead as leaders in different projects.
Speaker 1:And changing gears a bit to ask a few questions we always like to ask.
Speaker 1:And to start off, I'm not sure if you're planning a big in-person event, but let's say we're recording this I'd like to ask it in a sort of theater style question. Let's say we do this in the theater, in the financial heart of Europe, which is, depending how you look at it, London or Paris or Amsterdam or Berlin, but one of those let's not pick any difficult political battles here and the room is full of financially focused people in a sense, people investing their own money, putting money to work, like in all aspects, including philanthropy, and people working in the financial space, at their banks, investment funds, pension funds, etc. They, of course, are inspired. We had a really good meal before, let's make sure, and a lot of interesting pictures of interesting farmers on stage as well. But what would be one people also forget, like what would be one thing you want them to remember and preferably take to their work the next day, Like when they sit at a desk, like one seed you want to plant in the financial-minded person's head.
Speaker 3:It financial minded person's head. It's a good question, so many things. When we talk about investments, if that's what you're asking right now, I think what we need to understand is that we need truly patient capital right now and how important that is and how we need to be guided by nature and make long-term partnerships. I mean, if I'm thinking about investment right now, that's really not the case, because we only again talk about wealth in one way. Would be my suggestion on how you actually talk about that in a room of financial?
Speaker 2:people. I would first be like all right, everyone, we're getting on a bus and we're going out into nature and out of this big city where there is next to no nature. Because one of the most impactful conversations I had I run a podcast called Future Food and I interviewed Lucas, who has been traveling with the Kogi, which is an indigenous tribe from Colombia, and I had the chance of also sitting with them for a weekend and just like hearing their wisdom. And one of the key points that has stuck with me and it rings in my ears every time I go to a conference, in a hotel room or an office building, is that these are man-made structures where nature is not present.
Speaker 2:And we have these discussions around water, around climate, around soil, agriculture, energy, and we have these discussions around water, around climate, around soil, agriculture, energy where nature is not involved and nature is not present in the room. And how can you be making decisions about Mother Nature if she's not involved in the conversation? So the same would be true with these investment friends of ours, as being like let's go out and reconnect with nature in that capacity and include it in the conversation, because I have no doubt the conversation is going to shift if you get out of that environment and out of the boardroom and into nature's boardroom, and there's so many different beautiful opportunities for that. But I think that would be the first seed I would plant is shifting where these conversations happen.
Speaker 1:Fair enough. And if we switch or shift even, let's say, the position at the table and both of you would be in charge? Of course you can have a completely different focus, but both of you would be in charge of a significant investment fund. We usually use a number of a billion. Could be a euro or dollars, which is not exactly the same at the moment, but let's say, a lot of money, like more money than anybody Most people listening here would ever even dream of or not dream of, because it's quite a burden, but let's say it would have under their fingertips.
Speaker 1:But you had to put it to work. So you're born with this burden. Tomorrow you're, you're wake up tomorrow morning with this burden. What would you do? Obviously, this is not investment advice. I'm not looking for exact amounts, but I'm looking at what would be extremely long-term possible. Like there's no, there's a return target. In a sense, it would be nice to get it back, but there's no high return target and there's no date. Um, but what would be big buckets of your attention? What would be main things that you would focus on? Um, if you had to put something with, with a lot of zeros, to work?
Speaker 3:I would expand the work that we're already doing with our restore fund. To be honest, right now farmers can apply for projects on ground. It can be composting facilities, it can be trees, new machines. There's so much needed on ground liver right now and it's really difficult to for farmers to get those kind of money unless you make a big application somewhere or get investment in um, which you don't have time for nor access to.
Speaker 3:You don't have the access to it and I feel there's so much money put in everywhere else but not on ground level, which is making me really, really it's a big challenge, right. So I would definitely make sure that the money hit the ground and was actually doing something on ground, because we also see, with the project money, the project grants right now, it does increase their profitability, it does increase their practices on ground and it does make a big change. And, of course, like on a bigger scale, that's also knowledge on a regional level, like if one farmer is doing this, the farmers in the neighborhood will also have access to that knowledge. So, money in the ground, more money in the ground.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would say with the more money on the ground, more needed in the overall environment, and I don't think people look at it from that holistic point of view or that broader point of view and these are the things that are harder to fund because they don't give return in the same way that we're used to. So it is a bit more experimental and these are innovative projects in their own right, though they're quite obvious. They're kind of common sense things at the same time, like if you want this, then of course you got to do this and it takes time. So I think, looking at almost infrastructure like think about community infrastructure as the backbone what infrastructure you need in the place to make this succeed and to ensure that the funds you invested actually turn into something?
Speaker 1:That always surprises me, how the work of Commonland and others on a landscape scale, where you really need to bring together the landscape in a shared vision, how difficult it is to get that funded.
Speaker 1:How fundamental if you, even from a simple investor and we talked about it with Willem on the podcast as well but from a simple investor point of view, if you're interested in investing in farms in that landscape, you would really like the landscape to move forward in a certain direction.
Speaker 1:So you really like part of you probably funding some of that work 10 years before so you can come in at some point to to to start funding. But there's it's just very, very difficult to to get that funded. They're starting to get better at it, but so many landscapes, so many places don't have that quote-unquote software infrastructure that needs everything else to flourish anyway. And then combining it with a really hard infrastructure of composed stuff and machines and things in the ground, on the ground, that is yeah, let's say the agriculture banks haven't really stepped into this space yet, it's safe to say as an answer. And a lot of this is expensive hardware that needs to be bought and put to use and can make enormous differences on the farm level. But yeah, somebody has to lend you the money because it's not what you're supposed to get.
Speaker 2:It often also includes uncomfortable conversations and conflict, because people have different opinions around what the landscape needs to be, how it needs to be shaped, or past attachments. So that's part of it, too, is there's a very human element within this and you can't just like bulldoze your way through. I mean, it's been done before, but it actually requires a lot of community engagement and trust building.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been done before it's part of the biggest lesson I've received in this place is so much of our future is our past. Regenerative agriculture isn't new. It's quite old, but it's. How does it fit in today's context of where we've gone? And then where do we want to keep going, which is where talking about a shared vision is important and having an opinion on the shared vision like not just letting it be up to what other people think being part of that conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which often, especially in rural areas, has just not happened or has been missing or has not happened because things have been happening to the rural areas, because of deciding things, and that disconnect as strong as the disconnect between people and nature, and that disconnect as strong as the disconnect between people and nature has been fueling, yeah, just an enormous amount of trouble. And a final question that I always love to ask so we sorry, we take away your fund, unfortunately, you I mean thank you for your investment work, but you're no longer in control of that. But you do have, maybe potentially, actually more power or more influence and potential impact, let's say, because you have a magic wand or the magic power or the power to change one thing overnight. What would that be?
Speaker 3:All right, I would love to have that, and there's actually many things I would do, but one of them would be to erase all.
Speaker 1:It's always the end show people that love these questions Like I would do many things. This is not Aladdin, where you can have three and then it becomes one, two to do even more and have another lamp. This is one. That's why it's a tricky one. I know it's impossible because we need to change every single puzzle piece, but yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, there's definitely one that is taking up much of my time when I think about it, and that is like the narratives we are talking about when it comes to farmers and how that has shaped our perception of farmers. So I would erase all negative stories and narratives about farming and agriculture, because we are in a world right now where they are blamed for many of the challenges we are in. I think it's very important to remember that we have asked farmers to do what they're doing. It is a system we created and the farmers have constantly tapped into that system to provide cheap food that we have asked for and now we are blaming are blaming them right, and that is shaping the whole understanding of what farming is, and that is something we really need to change like. Again back to what analisa said if we want to attract the next generation, we need to talk about farming in another way. So, from today, everything erased on the internet, bad, bad stories about farmers, and then we get to work.
Speaker 1:Very cool answer.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I think if I could flip the switch and wave my wand and tomorrow everyone woke up with the memory of how abundant our world already is.
Speaker 2:So I'm imagining them waking up and they step outside and they're overwhelmed by the life pulsating around them and they realize that the tree isn't just a tree that you drive by or walk by. It's actually performing all these essential services and you're like, oh my God, I had no idea this was right in front of me. Or I had no idea the squirrel was doing all this other stuff, because I couldn't see it. I'd forgotten it was doing all this other stuff because I couldn't see it. I'd forgotten it Because I think we know this, I do think we know this on a fundamental level, but that context or that knowledge has been lost and it's reconnecting to nature, but it's understanding the web of life to a very different degree than we do now and to a very different degree than we're taught now. And I think that would be the wish I would have for everyone is to realize how abundant we already are and how connected you are to everything.
Speaker 3:Yes, so true.
Speaker 1:I think it's a perfect way to wrap up this conversation and wishing you a lot of luck, obviously, with opening the applications. I mean, people can not only apply themselves, they can apply for others as well. Right, in terms of farms, where do people go and what do people do when this goes live? The application would have gone live. It should be around the 12th of November. Like, what do people? We put all the links in the show notes, obviously, but what do people do? What are you looking for?
Speaker 3:Like I have an amazing farmer next door. What do I do? Or I am that amazing farmer. What are the different paths? Most important for Annalisa and I and the whole team is to get as many diverse farmers to apply or to be nominated so we can actually showcase that they are out there and so we can showcase all the incredible work.
Speaker 2:So you can nominate and you can apply, and I'll add on that that, if you've listened to this today, if you're a farmer, cindy is your point of contact. If you are running a nonprofit supporting farmers, please get in touch with me and let us know about your work. If you're operating in Europe, and same if you're a corporate leader who's working on this space and you're like how do we get involved supporting these farmers who will be part of the recognition program? I'm also the person you can reach out to and talk to, and we're so excited this is so exciting. Two years in the making, it's happening. Spread the word is the other thing. Tell the farmer you know what's going on.
Speaker 1:Yes, please. I can imagine this has been a long time coming since that dinner and even longer since the Aston or meeting in Copenhagen or in Denmark.
Speaker 1:So this is a moment, so congrats with that. I mean, we're almost there. Congrats with that and enjoy. And yeah, now a lot of the hard work is actually beginning. Not that it was easy before, but now it's becoming a thing. So it's always very interesting to see an idea coming to life, basically, and starting on that, of course, to see where it goes in a couple of years and see how that starts to flourish in all kinds of directions we probably cannot imagine yet, and that's perfectly fine.
Speaker 2:Thank you, cohen, thank you for this space.
Speaker 3:Thank you, cohen. Yeah, thank you for all your work too.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. For the show notes and links we discussed in this episode, check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculturecom. Forward slash posts. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend or give us a rating on Apple Podcasts? That really helps. Thanks again and see you next time.
