Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
338 Marco Carbonara – Using 10 species of animals to profitably regenerate 100 hectares of forgotten Italian land between Rome and Florence
A conversation with Marco Carbonara, cofounder, owner and farmer at Pulicaro Farm, in Lazio, Italy. A special early morning walk through permanent pasture surrounded by multispecies graziers, donkeys, cows, sheep, goats, chickens and, of course, some guard dogs, which means a lot of pleasant and present background sounds. We are in the hills between Rome and Florence and have the great pleasure to visit the farm of Marco and Chiara. Marco takes us on the morning walk to feel, smell, and see regeneration of permanent pastures in a Mediterranean landscape. Definitely not easy, but definitely possible, and yes, also profitable.
How did Marco, who had no farming experience 20 years ago, approach regeneration back then, and how does he approach it now? When they take on new lands, what are the first steps, and how much has he learned over the last 20 years? What is the role of animals in regenerating the Mediterranean landscape, and how does he handle the challenging balance between running a company, needing to break even, and wanting to regenerate as quickly as possible?
We also discuss the challenge of feed: is it okay to bring feed for the non-ruminants in your rotation from outside the farm when your soils can’t yet sustain needy plants like wheat, barley, etc.? And if it is, how do you deal with the challenge of potentially competing for human food? We only scratched the surface because it’s impossible to capture 20years of deep regeneration in just one hour, but we tried and we hope you enjoyed listening to it as much as we did recording it.
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Join us for a special early morning walk through a permanent pasture surrounded by multi-species grazers, donkeys, cows, sheep, goats and, of course, some guard dogs, which means a lot of pleasant and present background sounds. We are in the hills between Rome and Florence in Italy, and have the great pleasure to visit the farm of Marco and Chiara. Marco takes us on a morning walk to feel, smell and see regeneration of permanent pastures in a Mediterranean landscape. Definitely not easy, but also definitely possible and, yes, you can do this profitably. How does Marco, who had no farming experience 20 years ago, approach regeneration? And how does he approach it now when they take on new lands? What are the first steps and how much has he learned over the last 20 years? What is the role of animals in regenerating the Mediterranean landscape? And what about the challenging balance between running a company and thus needing to break even and wanting to regenerate as fast as possible? Plus, we discussed the challenge of feed. Is it okay to bring the feed for your non-ruminants in your rotation from outside your farm when your soils can't sustain the needy plants, like wheat and barley yet? And if yes, how do you deal with the challenges of competing potentially for human food? As always, we only scratch the surface because it's impossible to capture 20 years of deep regeneration in one hour, but we tried and I hope you enjoy listening to it as much as we did recording it, listening to it as much as we did recording it.
Speaker 1:This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast, investing as if the planet mattered, where we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return. Why my focus on soil and regeneration? Because so many of the pressing issues we face today have their roots in how we treat our land and our sea, grow our food, what we eat, wear and consume, and it's time that we as investors, big and small and consumers, start paying much more attention to the dirt slash soil underneath our feet. To make it easy for fans to support our work, we launched our membership community and so many of you have joined us as a member. Thank you. If our work created value for you and if you have the means and only if you have the means consider joining us. Find out more on gumroadcom slash investing in RegenAg. That is gumroadcom slash investing in RegenAg, or find the link below.
Speaker 1:Welcome to a very special episode. We're doing a morning walk, not so early, and you're gonna hear a bit of background noise, but in a good way Some dogs, a lot of animals. We're gonna talk about animals on the land. We're here in, I would say, central Italy, northern Lazio, if you're familiar close to Tuscany, and we're in a beautiful landscape.
Speaker 1:It's the end of September, the end of the summer, it's getting fresher, and we're here with Marco, who's gonna give us a Hello everybody, a tour on this land or tour, a little morning walk and a discussion on the role of animals in regeneration, which is always a hot topic. And there are some animals greeting us which are important guard dogs. They have a role in regeneration as well, absolutely Fundamental in these kind of landscapes to not lose animals. So, marco, first of all, where do we find ourselves in terms of landscape? We're going to describe. We're gonna make it as visual as possible, obviously because people are listening when they're driving or they're cooking or they might be gardening with many people do that or painting someone as well, and so we're going to describe where we, where we find, is what we see around. But how many hectares do you farm? How long have you been here? Just to give a bit of an intro, so we people know where we are and who you are so welcome everybody.
Speaker 2:We are at Pulicaro Farm. That is a farm of 100 hectares 60 hectares that we own and another 40 that we rent for farming. We are on the Alto Piano dell'Alfina. It's a plateau, a volcanic plateau, close by Bolsena Lake. It's 600 meters on the sea level, volcano soil and in a quite wild area. This plateau is surrounded by woods, forests, natural reserves, and very, very few people live here. There are probably more dogs in Pulicaro than people living in the.
Speaker 1:Which is interesting because you're not that far from Florence, you're not that far from Rome, like it's all two hours.
Speaker 2:No, from Rome it's even less. It's one hour and a half. From Florence, it's a couple of hours, yes.
Speaker 1:And it's empty in that sense full of life in terms of, but not full of people. Why Was it always the case?
Speaker 2:or why has that happened? I think that historically, this was an area that was more populated during the Etruscan age. There were more farms we were seeing maps from the archaeologists than now, and I think the reason is because it was on the edge. Alfina means on the border, literally, so when something is very far from the center of Lazio and very far from the center of Tuscany, it's not Tuscany, it's not Lazio, and very far from the center of Tuscany is not Tuscany, is not Lazio, is something that people tend to forget.
Speaker 1:So I think this is the main reason it didn't depend on anybody, it wasn't part of anything really.
Speaker 2:So probably, probably yes was a place that was not well considered, well developed, from the main governments of the two regions. We are at the border of three regions Umbria, lazio and Tuscany To make it even more complicated.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:But now there is a good side effect of this, after probably hundreds of years, that the natural environment is very well preserved and that, honestly, there is a very high quality of air, water and lifestyle.
Speaker 1:Which is not to be taken lightly in many places.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Many other places in the world you don't have that problem with water quality, air quality, basically lack of life. And then how did you end up here and started farming Almost? It's almost 20 years, like I think in. May 19 and a half.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's now more than 20, because it was 20 years the last May. Ah, so 20 and a half years, yeah, 20 and a half.
Speaker 1:Because you weren't born on a farm. Here you weren't Generation X in a long lineage.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. Me and Chiara, my wife. We started here right after university. I studied ecology, natural science, ecology, and my wife studied archaeology, and we were initially looking for a place to live that could also sustain us from an economical point of view. So not just an homestead, but trying to find a way for having a productive farm.
Speaker 1:Why was that? Because I think many in that movement many other places, many other people somehow go for that, go for the homestead. Back to the land movement. There have been many waves. I think we're in part in another one at the moment. The idyllic if I just grow my own vegetables, everything will be fine. I'm generalizing here. But why was it for you from the beginning, immediately like this has to make economic sense as well because honestly I would.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to do another job. You know what I mean fair point yeah, or farm job yeah exactly, I love this, this job, that is as well a lifestyle, obviously.
Speaker 1:By the way, it's amazing to see the guard dog eating part of the food of the cow and scaring away the cow and complaining, and complaining about it as well.
Speaker 2:This is classical jealousy of young dogs. He is big, but he is one year and a few months old, and so he doesn't know exactly which is his own role. He's like you know, teenagers.
Speaker 1:So he definitely not eating the food of the ruminants, but you will find out. Yes, so you didn't want to be off farm, and so when you came on this piece of land, what was the decision Like? How was the process to decide what to what to grow and and what to what to go?
Speaker 2:for I always been interested in in I think the right word is in ecosystems. I mean, I've always been interested in plants, but also in animals, and probably the things that interest intrigued me more is the cooperation in between animals and plants. So it was quite natural for us deciding to have, yes, more vegetable garden. Yes, planting olives we planted 2 000 olives in 10 years planting some, some heirloom varieties of fruit, but also having animals. Also, because for me it was almost always quite clear that there could not be an easy and fast regeneration process, especially in the Mediterranean climate, without the animals. But in general, from my point of view as an ecologist, there's no natural environments that doesn't count on the activities of animals, no matter where, no matter what, but is trying to have a farm far as possible from from artificial environment. We need the animals for imitate is the right word yeah, to imitate the natural is as much as possible.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned, to regenerate we need the animals. So that means that this land, even though it's been not heavily farmed or heavily let's say, quote unquote developed, it needs regeneration. When you came on the land, what was your reading of the land as an ecologist? Yes, there are many forests around, but what was your impression of the land as an ecologist? What was your? Yes, like, there are many forests around many, but like. What was your impression of what is this landscape?
Speaker 2:For sure I was quite lucky, and lucky, I mean, I chose this area also because there was a lot of forest, because it was quite high, so less polluted as the plains the plains and I was very happy to check that was not heavy chemicals in the soil. So, yeah, this fission was not so bad. Okay, but at the same time, I think that people sometimes have a very vague idea of what is a fertile soil, what is a healthy environment, a resilient environment. And even just cutting the grass year by year, the same day of the year mostly, and without putting back anything in the soil, reducing so the biodiversity in terms of seed production, or cultivating cereals in not correct way, allowing erosion and so on, it's enough for reducing.
Speaker 1:If you do that 50, 60, 100 years, you mine 1% a year still so.
Speaker 2:ER, for example, just for using one parameter that is not the only one but can be easy to read is the amount of organic matter. Here was around 1.5 1.8. That was not so bad compared to other area, but absolutely not sufficient for healthy pastures, that's for producing really, because this is then, at the end, the matter of farming. Farming must produce something to eat.
Speaker 1:It's your asset, this organic matter. I mean, I'm definitely no expert, but it seems a good proxy. If it's too low, yeah, you're just not going to produce a lot because it's sort of the currency in the. In the system it has to flow exactly, exactly and so, okay, you found it with that. But you've also found it with good conditions, or at least non-very bad conditions in terms of chemicals in terms of pollution. Then what was your first step? Where?
Speaker 1:did you start your journey Because you were fresh out of university. You didn't have a lot of farming experience, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And especially 20 years ago, it was not even easy to find other examples, to find people that could explain something to you. Remember people before the internet? Yes, almost Average agronomist was just suggesting you very classical solution. Has that changed a lot? Not a lot, but it changed. It changed. I mean mean now someone that can want to start something like this, have good example, bad example, have books, have a podcast. I have a lot of youtube information that you can at least check and make your own idea. Yeah, we started that. Mostly we have to make mistakes under our mistakes to understand what was the right combination, the right solution.
Speaker 1:You know and so fast forward 20 years or we're gonna go into different space. Well, what do we see now? What do you? How much do you?
Speaker 2:manage. What kind of different?
Speaker 1:enterprises and animals do you have?
Speaker 2:what changed in 20 years is that we increased a lot the number and the diversity of the animals, that we expanded the farm from the original three hectares to almost 100 and that now, finally, in the plots we started cultivating the one that was more close to the house, the first three hectares, let's say. Now there are almost probably 18 years that we are acting quite consciously in a regenerative way maybe 15, because at the beginning you try to do your best, you have all chemicals, you try to use organic fertilizers, you try to do it, but you're not understanding exactly what's going on and you cannot see the result before at least a couple of seasons. You know.
Speaker 1:So, understanding Somebody else said on the podcast recently if I could change one thing, it would be that farming had a season every week. So you could change, you could actually make sense.
Speaker 2:um, honestly is, um, it's really difficult to realize the result of your actions, because you don't know if it was the weather, if it was the sea changes. I really remember the sensation for the first five years, the really terrible sensation of not understanding what was surrounding you Not completely, but you were feeling a big lack of information in some area. So it was very disturbing obviously.
Speaker 1:You feel like things are moving but you have no clue, like it's sort of in the dark, Exactly. And now has that changed Completely.
Speaker 2:So you observe pastures.
Speaker 1:You see, to a certain degree, of course, what is driving them. What is moving, not moving? How?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. After 15 years 20 in the farm and 15 in the agriculture, after 15 years 20 in the farm and 15 in the agriculture I feel that there is a long path in front of us. Still okay, but I think that now I know how to navigate. I really feel that my actions give me the result that more or less I expect. Okay, the things I can really see more now is in the global health of the ecosystems, on the resilience of the ecosystems, just for making a very silly example, but even the dogs now don't need pet insecticides anymore. It's very rare that a dog has fleas or ticks Okay, more than one. You know what I mean. Cause rotating birds, rotating other animals, having wild birds and so on, wild, eat them. Basically, yes, keep the things under control.
Speaker 1:Okay, now, this was a silly example, but no, no, but it's an example of the same example of Richard Perkins. Like if you see healthy predators operating on your farm, it means you're reaching out because they can choose they will fly somewhere else, mainly, and or they walk somewhere else. And so now, like with new fields or new places, because you've been growing steadily, of course, the dog that was joining us now is going to annoy the cows again. It's the same young one we discussed before and it's still eating the ruminant food. Barley Barley.
Speaker 2:It's an amazing Barley dog.
Speaker 1:So, like with new fields you took on recently, how are you operating differently? Like things you took you started managing the last few years, like how big is the difference compared to 10 years ago or 15 years ago?
Speaker 2:You are referring to the results. I see no, no, no, the operation, the operation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like now, because you said, now I feel more in control, but more I know more when I do x, probably y will come in a certain and in the first few years I have absolutely no idea and and I and I felt it as well because I was trying things and actually didn't see too many connections, like now, with new, heavily degraded fields. What do you? What do you do? What's your approach when you move in or when you?
Speaker 2:start buyingasing or buying something. My approach now is when I have to start the regeneration process on a plot because I still don't use the 100% of the farm. Okay, I'm still colonizing the most far part of the farm, like your farm, is between Rome and Tuscany.
Speaker 1:No, the most far pieces. Just like your farm is one of the far pieces between Florence and Rome. It's easier closer to the farm, obviously.
Speaker 2:Obviously.
Speaker 1:So you're still, and when you colonize. Let's use a difficult word.
Speaker 2:Yes, but it's just for I mean to colonize with biodiversity. This is what I mean. I like it. The first thing I do is that I take time for really looking, observing this new plot, because every single piece is slightly different from the other how do you do that?
Speaker 1:how do you take time? Do you take a chair and sit? Do you walk?
Speaker 2:no, I walk, I walk constantly, I walk for hours. Sometimes, do you note?
Speaker 1:anything down if you have a notebook, do you take any observations? Do you take audio? How do you take photos?
Speaker 2:usually I take photos and I take few notes on the photos. But because the most important thing for me is noticing is trying to make a big picture, I don't take so much notes of single stuff, but I try to look at bioindicators in terms of plants, in terms of soils, in terms of water, and I try to imagine which animal can be introduced in this new plot that will have the best effect on the soil at the same time, will be enough productive on that plot. Because this is something that people forget quite usually that when you start a regeneration of the soil, the animals are useful but at the same time they should need a regenerated or re-regenerated environment, so they will suffer on a place that is not fully regenerated.
Speaker 1:There's not enough pasture, not the right species to make them grow. And at the end you're running a company and you need to sell the protein, the animals.
Speaker 2:So according on the specific situation. Probably I will use as first some goats. Ok, then I will introduce some sheep, then I will introduce probably some birds, then probably I will remove the goats and I will add, after a couple of years of birds, I will add the, the cow which is the heaviest or like the most impactful but needs the most, probably the cow in terms of the cow are the most effective in terms of regeneration, but at the, they are the ones that are more needy.
Speaker 2:They need a regenerated pasture to express their potential. The calf you see in front, okay. The gray one, okay.
Speaker 1:Have the same age of the brown one Significantly bigger, just for the audience.
Speaker 2:Beautiful cow it's not a matter of breed, because in theory the red breed is a little bigger, but the point is that this calf had access, with the mother, to pastures that were well-regenerated, so the mother produced a bunch of milk.
Speaker 1:And she's fatty, she's chubby, you know. And she's fatty, she's chubby, you know. So it's a dance between production, yield which animal, which species, and then see how to use the animal, and that process of observing. Do you do that, I'm imagining, not only before you take on a new pasture or a new field, you also do that Constantly, constantly. Yes, because you have to adapt, because it's not the plan you had in your mind, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Even if I have to tell you that honestly, I feel that it's much easier when the soil is regenerated. When the soil is regenerated, no matter what you put on, it will be much easier to gather the result and will be much more difficult to damage it. It's at the beginning that if you make the wrong choices, you will lose money, lose time and also even get the soil and ecosystem condition worse.
Speaker 1:Which means you lose even more time and more ants on. You go down the cycle instead of up.
Speaker 2:For example, we try to use every single animal on a purpose. We have also donkeys. That's for donkeys. We don't sell meat, we don't sell anything. They are donkeys that we mostly use for regenerating processes, because they are animals that will eat just the things that cow, goats and sheep doesn't eat.
Speaker 1:Shout out for donkeys. They're amazing.
Speaker 2:Or we use pigs. We have 200 pigs in woods and pastures that we use. As I don't know how to say, they have a double. There are two big families in animals. There are herbivores and omnivores. Okay, omnivores are very useful because you can feed them on pasture, even if the pasture is not feeding enough of them. You know what I mean, even if the pest is not feeding enough. You know what I mean. And pigs, for example, have a very specific action on the soil.
Speaker 1:That is disturbing the surface.
Speaker 2:that is very delicate, but if you use them properly, they're amazing at the early stages of regeneration. Amazing at the early stages of regeneration. Then, when the regeneration is let's say again, is more far in the process, cows are excellent, Okay.
Speaker 1:So what do you feed the pigs then? Like, what do you feed the omnivores? How do you deal with the feed part? Not like the ones that are not able I mean we discussed barley and the dogs but like how do you operate, or how do you approach that thorny subject, the difficult subject of feed, because you don't want to bring in a lot of feed from outside to regenerate your pastures, to keep the animals alive, because it would be counterintuitive it is a very delicate point, okay, unfortunately, nothing comes from nothing.
Speaker 2:so, in the difficult target to balance a company with a study case okay, with just the theory and the studies about regeneration we made some choices. To ask neighbors to use their own fields for pasture is almost impossible because they have to cross roads, they have to maybe move a couple of kilometers and so on, and I decided to keep our land for pastures. This means that we can produce hay, that we can produce some barley sometimes, but the most part of the land we use is for permanent grasslands. Okay, you have also considered that we have more or less 40 hectares that are forest woods? Okay, and we decided to buy the cereals and legumes we need from the same neighbors. We try to buy not far more far than 30 kilometers, more or less 40 kilometers.
Speaker 2:We buy mostly from Tuscany few people in Tuscany, people surround here very close, and someone from Umbria, because, honestly, this is my personal point of view, but I think it's quite something, quite important. A lot of people think that you can start regeneration process and at the same time producing cereals. I think this is false because it is extremely difficult. The cereals are needy species, needy crops, needy crops, so I will produce cereals, but when I can reach a certain amount of organic matter soil, biodiversity dynamics, speed of dynamics into the soil, and so on.
Speaker 1:So you see a future where you also integrate the cereals somewhere. But from very pragmatic and practical reasons, you chose not to do that yet.
Speaker 2:Because and the land is not ready, yes, and also because I know that I cannot ask my chickens to take the bus for going past or somewhere else. You know what I mean. So the main goal for me is having the animals from past, because they are needy for regeneration of the soil.
Speaker 1:So if I have to make a choice, yeah this is my choice, and chickens are great for regeneration, but they eat a lot of insects. But they need grain and cereals. There's no question, unless you have a few in your backyard etc. But if you produce them, produce them. It's a myth. You can do that without, which means you have to buy it, and I think the same Richard Perkins mentioned as well somewhere means you have to buy it and I think at the same richard perkins mentioned as well somewhere. Like he is, is he extremely happy with buying organic cereals somewhere else to feed his chicken? Not really, but if, as long as they are willing to to sell it to him and he can use it to regenerate his soils and slowly get up to maybe um other animals or like. But we are used to eat chicken and eggs, which means there's cereals in the game. Like there's not, there's not a lot to do about it.
Speaker 2:Yes, there is a very wide gradient in this. I want to make you a few examples. Um, first of all, more the pasture is rich, less, less cereals they need More. Do you see that, absolutely, absolutely, seasonally, they decrease even the 40% of the need? Okay, then less is the density of the animals, less cereals you need obviously cereals, you need obviously. Um then, uh, it depends on which cereals you're using. We just use, uh, the one that's called autunno, vernini, autumn and winter cereals and legumes means barley, spelt, wheat, oat and fava beans and peas. We don't use soy, we don't use corn. Okay, because they need much more water and because we don't find locally okay, so we don't have the control.
Speaker 1:Do you send anything back? It's very difficult for you to send the manure, probably back to the farms you're buying from, like it's not that you're bringing it, giving them meat, Not meat, no but also manure, sorry.
Speaker 2:The manure is a little bit more difficult, but it happens with the very close neighbors. We do this, okay, we do this. And another thing that I want to tell you is that, from a global point of view, we need cereals as humans. So I don't want to, let me say, waste a lot of cereals for the birds or for the pigs. This is why I took agreement with a big corporation of farmers, organic farmers in Tuscany, that they give me just the, let me say, scraps. I mean the barley or the or the spout that got broken in small pieces, the, the part that is sorted by the machine, that have a lot of wild little seeds inside. That is just amino acid diversity for my chickens.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you take the left quote-unquote leftovers exactly that people usually use for biogas sometimes okay.
Speaker 1:So in the scale of usefulness and actually the scale of protein, because you can have a discussion like biogas is the absolute last one, um, and energetically, we can ask a lot of questions about the efficiency, the subsidies needed, etc. On a small scale, biogas probably makes sense, but the large ones we've been building doesn't make any sense because you have to drag around a lot of material which is very water heavy to far away places. Um, like if, if fuel wasn't so cheap, this wouldn't happen. Um, so it's better to put it, to transfer it into animal protein which is very high quality very high sort after.
Speaker 1:we're not going to finish eating that anytime soon, and it's actually a few steps up the protein ladder. Was it difficult to convince them of like? Are you able to pay better or at least equal? Are they happy that it goes to animals instead of biogas facility?
Speaker 2:I pay a little bit more yeah, I pay a little bit more and consider that this is human quality food or organic food. So, yes, for my animals is the best is simply to change the mindset and knowing that you have to balance your ratio more frequent, because you will have more spelt and you will have more barley.
Speaker 1:Do you do that, or it comes to you in big quantities and you mix.
Speaker 2:I mix and I grind okay.
Speaker 1:That's fundamental. Which is extra complexity? It's something else you need to learn.
Speaker 2:Absolutely At the same time, at the very beginning, every time you change the ratio to your animals, even if I try to change it smoothly, but, for example, at a certain point I have just mostly spelt, good luck with the smooth and the beginning of the regeneration process. I mean 10, 15 years ago was much more stressful for the animals. I mean 10, 15 years ago was much more stressful for the animals. Now more pasture means less food. So you already balance this. And the things that I noticed and I studied also, is that more your soil increase in terms of biodiversity and quality means that more the microbiota of the soil increase, develop, and the microbiota of the soil is directly connected to the microbiota of the animals that lives on that soil. That will help him to digest things that are theoretically not considered good. I'm going to make an example. Not considered good. I'm going to make an example Pigs officially doesn't produce any phytase.
Speaker 2:That is an enzyme that breaks down the vegetables, mostly from a geyser. But we have seen that rural pigs have genetically a longer intestine, first of all Okay, and second they have bacterias that happen to produce phytase. So the official. It's funny that first of all, okay.
Speaker 1:And second, they have bacterias that happen to produce fitasi. So the official. It's funny that first of all you said rural pigs, which suggest urban. Obviously the ones inside are urban, even though they are not enjoying anything of the city life. Um, but it's interesting.
Speaker 1:So you literally, of course, grow with your surroundings and are able to the same with all the I remember fred provenza on on the show and, of course, the book um, nourishing, nourishment, nourishment. Um. Definitely read it if you haven't any listeners. Um of him observing, I think, was goats eating something that officially was poisonous to them. And then he did the analysis. Luckily, instead of freaking out and say and make sure they didn't eat it anymore, because at that specific moment in the life cycle of that plant it was actually very beneficial to the goats and the goat knew they would never eat something, or never I mean, a rural goat would never eat anything that would harm them, and apparently the pigs. So they eat the vegetable leftovers.
Speaker 2:This is all mediated by the microbiota. So this is something that people forget. It's getting easier. Exactly, finally, a story that's getting easier Developing your soil is developing the microbiota of your animals. That means that develop the resistance and the adaptability and the efficiency, the conversion rate of your animals. Okay, look at the lamb and the goats. I mean they are quite chubby they are having After the summer, which is not difficult.
Speaker 1:After the summer, it was quite harsh. It was a very hot one, as the last ones have been Exactly.
Speaker 2:And some hay, and in terms of cereal they have an handful just for keeping them trained on coming when I whistle, and little things like this.
Speaker 1:And now like this field, where would they go next? If you want to take a walk, you will see that.
Speaker 2:You see a lot of mushrooms already, which is amazing. Yes, a lot of mushrooms is a good sign. There are a lot of the kind of beetles that roll the dung beetles. Okay, the heroes of any regeneration, absolutely there are a lot of ants my my thesis when I was at university was studying the ants ants community in olive orchards for using them as bioindicators of the rate of soil disturbance which I can imagine in a sorry.
Speaker 1:Ah yeah, I see a dung beetle here, big too. This is the bull. I was thinking it sounds like a donkey, almost no, it's the bull, he is a donkey in a certain way, but but I was thinking, it's another.
Speaker 2:It sounds like a donkey, almost no, he's a donkey, yeah, yeah but I was thinking it comes from the wrong side.
Speaker 2:This is not a donkey if you walk here with me, you really see under your feet, and some in terms of softness, that we are going down in decreasing of fertility. Up there is much better, down there is much less fertility. Up there is much better, down there is much less. Why? Because here is just three years that I'm regenerating and they spent part of the time, a good part of the time, where they have the water yeah, closer to the water part. So I should make fences even smaller for improving the regeneration. So the rotational system is excellent but needs time to build all the Infrastructure.
Speaker 1:Infrastructure and so on. Is that the biggest wire? There are a lot of dung, beetles, a lot a lot a lot. Of course. Now I see them and I cannot unsee them anymore. Is that a big piece, like a big? I see a lot of three-point wire or three-wire systems with a simple stock Like is that a big, not limiting factor as well, but a big piece, like to get all that infrastructure up.
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean it's very convenient compared to metal ones. Okay, much easier, much faster, much cheaper, but at the same time I mean for using 50, 60, 80 hectares, it is something to do, but you would like to make them even smaller. Even smaller. The key obviously is it's not up to me to say, but the key is having fast rotation on small plots with quite a good numbers of animals. This is the optimum okay.
Speaker 2:For having longer periods of rest. Full of beetles everywhere, okay. And here you can see that this was an abandoned soil from years. And you see the moss here. This moss means that here the soil have not enough dynamics in terms of vertical movement on water and nutrients and gases.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is why so?
Speaker 2:most is a signal that it's it's quite locked.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the soil okay, as plants cannot get through that, they cannot reach nutrients they need.
Speaker 2:Exactly so here you have two options. You can eventually mechanically disturb the surface. That is something I try to avoid because, again, it's gasoline, it's time and I think it's not strictly needed. It can be useful, but it's not strictly needed. When I say moving the cellar, I mean one inch. Because, that's the issue. Like you see here, like it's the first layer, yes, but you have seen that up there there's no moss, so it's enough to move the water and the hay ball during the winter and summer and to fence.
Speaker 2:More probably that the organic matter will improve and automatically the moss will reduce, because it's not the problem to having a and automatically the moss will reduce because it's not the problem to having a moss, but the problem is that when you have a lot of moss and a couple of other species, it's clear that you have less biodiversity. So this is the point.
Speaker 1:There's nothing against the moss, you know, but it's just a signal, it's a signal.
Speaker 2:It's a signal that the protein is less, and you have seen that there is 15 centimeters of grass and here there are three centimeters. It's very clear, yeah, okay, so this is.
Speaker 1:And then like an insight like this in these fields you bring that back to your when you map the grazing plan. You say, okay, actually, these fields, like how do you sit down and plan in such a complex dance of animals and feed it is, and you have to Water points and where's electricity and how, okay, what do we do with the donkeys and how do you keep that complexity?
Speaker 2:I try being very humble, first of all, and trying to apply schemes, knowing that every maybe four weeks you should even consider reconsider that scheme.
Speaker 1:You have like a giant map in your office like how do you?
Speaker 2:I have the map and I use also quite often I use Google Earth with the previous photo.
Speaker 1:Amazing remote sensing capabilities.
Speaker 2:Then I go walking, obviously, I go checking and I now have patterns that I can use. For example, on grasslands, the best option is to introducing a small group of goats that will reduce maybe brambles or thorns or thistles. They love it. Okay, then introducing the sheep, then introducing the cow, last one, the donkeys. This is a general pattern that works quite well If you don't need at the beginning an extra nitrogen input, which means the birds the birds and the pigs.
Speaker 2:Obviously, after the herbivores, it's excellent to have the birds because of the dung beetles and all that, yeah, for everything. And it's incredible how much they increase the the number of eggs. After three, four days they are entering an area where herbivores have been okay. They increase the layer of eggs about 20 25. Okay.
Speaker 1:Because of the influx of insects.
Speaker 2:Insects. Yes, everything probably Amazing, but here we should open maybe shortly another chapter Policies, rules, official vets and so on. So if you tell at the moment, for example, where people are struggling officially the wide world with avian influenza, you will tell that you will introduce birds close to cows. They go crazy.
Speaker 2:Because now the bird flu is scaring everyone and See, but it's scaring everyone because no one wants to study really about this and no one wants to accept the fact that it's a very vulnerable virus, considering sunlight and temperatures and wind and cause. No one want to consider densities. You know the main. The mainstream approach is that hygiene equals sterility. It is fake.
Speaker 1:And the real is more diversity equals. It's not the moss that's the enemy, but it's the quantity of moss. If the moss is reduced significantly, it's not an issue, exactly Like with the dog that joined us again doesn't need any flea, medicine or poison etc. Because he lives in a very, very alive. Yeah, that's gonna take a while to to battle that, but it's. It's an issue everywhere, like lock them up inside because then they're fine. Make sure you go in sterile as a, as a farmer, and you're saying, yeah, but actually in a healthy natural environment could still happen, but it's way less likely to cause any issues to. But of course, yeah, if you say let's put them all together and now we have cows that are getting sick, like people freak out like.
Speaker 2:The problem is that we look always for simple answer to complex questions. So the what I'm saying is not that you have to put everyone together in a mess, in a mud, you know and I'm saying that I will try to do exactly what happens in natural environments.
Speaker 2:So different steps, separated, organized, checked, from the vets from the labs. You know it's completely different. It's a it's a more complex approach that produce an easier and safer way to produce healthy, hygienic food that doesn't mean sterile food and do you see that means food full of life, as some friends of the podcast like to to call.
Speaker 1:And do you see that way of thinking and and seeing? I mean it's a, it's a big battle and conversation and narrative. We're obviously in in a sterile world and we try to make it more sterile with children, with covid, with, etc. Etc. Etc. And and we see that it's not working. But it's also like even questioning that and putting that on the table is very difficult. Do you see that with vets here, with policy that they're starting to get interested in because of results? I mean, you have a very successful farm. You sell in many interesting places in Rome. You have very, very happy customers, very little sick, in a way that officially, according to the rule book, shouldn't really work because it's messy, but it's organized, it's structured, it's following nuclear. You see, how is your, how is your relationship with, with the policy side or with the vets, etc. Do you have some, some friends of the vets or it's a concert battle?
Speaker 2:no, absolutely obviously. There are technicians. Let's call them people that are engineers or agronomists or whatever, that have a very classical approach. They don't want to have a single doubt in their life and so it's quite easy to have, let's say, a conversation with, but there are always people that are different. So I know a lot of excellent vets that helps farm, like mine, like my vet, for example, francesca Pisseri.
Speaker 2:She's an agroecologist, mostly more than a vet, okay, and so she's happy when she comes here like half-lying I hope, but it seems yes, or there are a lot of others in Italy that are constantly fighting and risking their career for producing a result in terms of a new approach. Okay, we are in touch with AIDA, that is, the Italian Association of Agroecology, that involves also professors from the US. I thought about an opera in Verona, but no, that's not that AIDA. No, I'm joking. Italian Association of Agroecology that involves also professors from the US. I thought about an opera in Verona.
Speaker 1:But no, that's not that Aida. No, I'm joking, I'm making a very joke. No, this is not Aida. I tried to make an opera joke, not at the opera. No, people don't.
Speaker 2:And we wrote down a document that we are trying to share with other vets official vets about the One Health approach and the microbiota. There's no healthy humans where, when our animals are sick, and there's no healthy animals if the environment is sick, there's nothing to add about it. This is the true end the dot. You know what? I mean yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:But it's a constant. Yeah, I can imagine the. Is it changing? Okay, but it's a constant. Yeah, I can imagine the. Is it changing? Like, have you seen, because you've been here and in this space for 20 years, is there movement on, like, the amount of people, people visiting here as well? Like, what have you seen there?
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean, there is a bigger interest about this. This for sure. This is changing. Still small numbers, but if 20 years ago it was 0.001, when it went to zero, okay, now maybe it's the 2, 5, 6%. Okay, this is much more than in the past, which?
Speaker 1:is a huge growth if you consider Huge growth.
Speaker 2:It's still little, but it's a huge growth.
Speaker 1:It's not a tipping point yet. We need to get to 15, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, I agree. And then there is another thing that is changing that. Even the people that are more skeptical about this, that doesn't trust this complexity, they are starting doubting for a simple reason the other way of producing food is collapsing.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I don't have anything to eat for you.
Speaker 2:They come sometimes for trying to understand, because even from an economical point of view, their productivity, their emergence, decreases a lot, decreased a lot. So, especially after the Ukraine war, people discovered that you cannot pay fertilizer $150 or $120 or $90 euros per 100 kilograms. That's not sustainable even economically. That if your wheat doesn't produce at least a sixty six tons per hectare, you will not pay all the expenses, the big tractor and so on. So this, this double reason, people that were always being a little bit interested, that are becoming more, and people that are not, that are skeptical about this but they have started doubting about what they are doing.
Speaker 1:And do you get neighbors asking or neighbors like people in the area you already mentioned? There are not so many in general but, like other farmers, increase of questions knock on the door like there are obviously.
Speaker 2:What are you?
Speaker 1:doing? Marco and Chiara, what are you doing?
Speaker 2:differently, someone maybe not exactly from the strict neighbourhood, but even sometimes also from the strict neighbourhood, sometimes even more far, and obviously there is a gap of communication. That is the gap of communication that impacts all regional agriculture. That is the exact communication that impacts all regenerative agriculture.
Speaker 1:That is the timescale, you mean the speed of regeneration.
Speaker 2:The speed of regeneration the speed of the economical result. That is a matter that no one can avoid. But if you are used to speak with people that say okay, so I will buy a farm, and in five years I want to answer, in two years I want to break even and in five years I want to buy the new tractor.
Speaker 1:But I, I understand you know I talked to many of those, but I also I always answer with like what did you do when you invested in in solar energy or even nuclear? Like it takes many of these things take a long time. In solar, perfectly fine, with payback times of 8, 9, 10 years, and then the panels are fine for another 20 and we're happy about it because it's long term. Like your money, your money is parked and does interesting things. And then, when it comes to farming, we're suddenly like, oh, it needs to be super fast and we're fine in other industries. If you invest in infrastructure, water, like water cleaning for a city, or sewage, it's like that's extreme long-term with also risks and low returns, but interesting returns not really correlated to the rest of the world because we always need sewage, I mean for the time being. And then with farming, we're like, oh, yeah, but it needs to be fast. Yeah, but we deal with 15, 20 year things all the time.
Speaker 2:And honestly, it's not a.
Speaker 1:VC investment Like it's not venture capital, it's not software as a service.
Speaker 2:But I want to add something more, that, from a strictly economical point of view, I think that regenerative agriculture is one of the few activities that will not absolutely cut your capital. I mean, every single dollar you put in the ground will be there. So after the regeneration then, yes, in five years you can buy something new.
Speaker 1:You can have a very good result.
Speaker 2:The problem is that our agricultural system bankrupt in 80 years. So to me it's already amazing that in 15 years you can have a very good result and in 20 probably you can fully recover and fix a lot of things that have been mined and sold and made money off in the last.
Speaker 1:But I think that's also an, a notion or a piece, a theme that's very like.
Speaker 1:I still don't understand why people in rome, in milan, in amsterdam, in l, like the financial places, don't fully grasp that Like you're rebuilding your asset, we're standing on it, it's getting better, we can see it Like we walked 150 meters from a place which was worse, which was better, and now we're in a place that's worse, and if you move the fences and actually the sheep went in there and like, in a few years, this is way better, which means the value of the land is better, not that you want to sell, but if you had to, you could have a real value.
Speaker 2:No matter what you want to do, you want to make sure you can. You want to make?
Speaker 1:show me any other industry where your asset is getting better with management and you can sell what comes off it. In this case, the solar panels.
Speaker 1:After 20, 25, 30 years you have to rebuild completely and the inverter you have to change after attempt you know, but it's because it's it's not like yeah, this is a self-replicating, yeah, but you get more people like from the finance not just this silly podcast, but from the finance world that um visit here or that pass by. You have many guests as well. You run an agritourism. People visit, people eat here, highly recommended right away. Um, that they, that they start asking questions and start saying like, oh, but this actually makes not easy but makes a lot of economic sense as well yes, but the problem is again that still, the majority of people cannot even consider the idea of waiting.
Speaker 2:This is quite absurd, as you were telling me, but I really feel this.
Speaker 1:still Not all of them, but all of them, okay, but there's an impatientness, exactly, and would that be like if you would talk? We love asking this question. Let's imagine we're in a theater we can do this in Verona or a nice theater La Scala in Milan, or something and we have the room full of the financial, with my boots or not. In a theater, we can do this in verona or a nice theater la scala in milan, or something we have the room full of the financial boots or not, absolutely and I would be more equipped with better boots as well. Um, and we do this on stage.
Speaker 1:You share a lot of pictures, and we might have had a nice meal, of course, before, with a lot of food from the farm, and and the room is full of of investors, people that are managing maybe pension money, maybe other people's money, maybe their own. What would be your main message? Is that patience? Is that what would be if you can plant one seed of regeneration in their mind that they remember for the next days when they go back to their desk, when they hopefully do something relevant? What would be the seed you want to plant in their mind?
Speaker 2:Probably, if I should ask for a miracle, let's say should be that suddenly all the fancy lights, music and sounds from advice that involve food production will fall down and people can clearly see all the picture where food comes from. Which are the effects?
Speaker 1:with no judgment, with no you know, but simply transparent exactly.
Speaker 2:I will. I imagine a world where the milkacao is not purple and is shooted into her stable and not on pastor, with grandpa, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:so you would be. This is almost the magic want question, which is not a one. But what if you had to change one thing and you're in the supermarket and all the fancy advertisement instead of that? You could look through and basically see how the cacao is being grown, where the milk comes from and what kind of horrible circumstances that is the sugar, the slavery, the chemicals and then it's up to you Up to you to choose, without any kind of judgment.
Speaker 1:If you want to support that, please do. And what it does to your body would be nice as well, probably.
Speaker 2:I mean for coming back to your question, the seed I would like to plant is the awareness.
Speaker 1:Specifically for people like in the financial world or entrepreneurs, people that are used to dealing as with with companies. What would be your message or what would be your um, yeah, your, your the seed you want to plant there to people, because we we talk a lot about the, the role of money in, in regeneration, and Always asking that question to practitioners on the ground always makes me curious. Like, what would be your message if we bring a group here, even of people that are excited, interested, but they don't run farms, they don't have that knowledge. What would be a main Message you want to give to them?
Speaker 2:main message you want to give to them. The main message should be if you don't really think that we should move to Mars, we should start to speak together. We should start taking all the good that is in the classical companies in terms of knowledge, scientific approach, money, communication, everything and start speaking with the other side, with the other side, so with people really proving that another way is possible and is productive. So, honestly, I would just would like to ask them to come and stay for a week yeah, not just a few hours.
Speaker 2:People come out no a week. Spend time A week.
Speaker 1:You have to breathe, go for walks, observe, like you said before, exactly.
Speaker 2:And really testing measurement. I mean what I think we're missing is keeping these two realities together.
Speaker 1:It's starting to happen.
Speaker 1:I have to say yes for sure, since we started the podcast, which is now almost nine years ago, eight Eight and also before, since I've been following the region and space, I think one of the big shifts apart from more attention and more media, but is that other people, people from entrepreneurial backgrounds, investors, people that have built companies, etc.
Speaker 1:Maybe in internet, etc. Are starting to maybe many cases through a health crisis, they come to food and ag because of their health issues or in their family and now starting to see there are actual, very interesting things to do around regeneration at scale, soil and and they are starting to show up in the space, slowly, like a few but experienced people that are knowing, that know how to present to investors that want to do this as well, because many people I'm imagining you as well so you want to go to milan every other and and speak, wear a suit and speak your investor language. That's not what you want to do. You want to be here on the farm, you want to manage your land and and there are other roles for other people to to play and I see those people starting to come and starting to listen, luckily, to the podcast and reach out for help and introductions and things like that.
Speaker 1:But if we flip the question, if you would be an investor and had it but we usually use a crazy number which is a billion euros, which, for reference, is a one with nine zeros, that's to make it even more insane Big number, big number like a big number what would you do if you had to put it to work? What would be your? I'm not asking for exact amounts, but I'm asking what would be your top priorities? What would be big buckets you put, like I don't know research genetics on cows, or buy a lot of land in this area, or invest in fencing technology. I don't know what would be your big or maybe a brand in Rome or a series of restaurants, or what would be your focus if you had the crazy responsibility and burden of putting so much money to work.
Speaker 2:I think that the things we need more is increasing the number of people involved in regenerative agriculture Involved, no matter if they are lawyers, people from economics, vets, carpenters or whatever. So if I could have this incredible opportunity, I probably will rent a team of people that will help me to scale a project okay on probably national or regional level I don't know regional level, I don't know for studying, starting, monitoring farms that can be considered a valuable example of productivity. You know what I mean. I mean I would like to have a medium scale. I think that for land stewarding, to control, to protect the land, you should not have huge farms.
Speaker 1:I trust more little plots of land like, because how can you walk it otherwise?
Speaker 2:Exactly. We have a reasonable number of people that can be kept together very efficiently. But I need that this must be studied, monitored, controlled by people that are not farmers, not just from people that are, but I need to involve them.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean For proving that this system can be scalable, that this system can produce food, that the most common things. People say you cannot feed the world. Okay, but I laugh on this because for using this assumption, you should know at least the number of the equation. So how many people you have to feed? Yes, this, we have the number more or less roughly. Then, how much we should eat, and there's no an agreement about this. If what we should eat, what we should eat, how much, then nutrient density we look for. And, uh, which are the lands that can produce food? Arable lands, what means Almost nothing to me, because most part of Italy is not arable, but there is another more or less roughly 25% of Italy is arable land and there is at least another 25% that is not considered arable but can be produced. It can be used for pasture, for pigs in the forest, for different varieties of cows or whatever. So I would like to show that we can feed the world properly, safely and also, let's say, economically- Sound.
Speaker 2:Sound okay. Obviously, we have to tell this. We must be able to change our mindset. If we're approaching the food production of the world like we approach a new startup that should sell sneakers, this is a different game. There should be different rules, should be different, you know. So this is the point.
Speaker 1:Probably, I would like to scale regenerative agriculture and by researching, following, observing and publishing on that sharing involving from the biodiversity to the financial results and everything in between to the ecosystem services, drinkable water or whatever and you would finance the research.
Speaker 1:You find it, the observe like the observational tower, basically, but on a different context, different scales, different like how does it look like here? How does it look like in the mountains of the alps? How does it look like in the lowlands of the po? How does it look like in in the netherlands, in germany? How does it look like in in ghana? I mean, they're different contexts, usually they're. The approaches are very different, but the, the, the, not the rules, but the um, let's say the mindset of the farmer is very similar. I've been on many farms now and it's very interesting how closely linked you might be to a pastoralist in uh in kenya, compared to an herbal farmer, industrial animal for extractic animal, farmer, herbal farmer in ferrara umara, it's interesting the language you speak.
Speaker 1:I want to thank you so much, marco, for this short morning walk. I think others will follow, but it was a fascinating insight in the morning feed of the animals and the dog, which I didn't know, liked barley. I don't know if he knows or he will find out that it's probably not his cup of tea, but he will learn. It's a young animal and beautiful surrounding and very interesting mini deep dive. We only scratch the surface, which I always say in in past year regeneration and landscape regeneration. So thank you so much. Thank you, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2:A pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. For the show notes and links we discussed in this episode, check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculturecom. Forward slash posts. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend or give us a rating on Apple Podcasts? That really helps. Thanks again and see you next time.
