Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
339 Ian McSweeney and Kristina Villa - You can’t address food security, soil carbon sequestration or climate change without first tackling the crisis of land access
Why land tenure and security are key to the future of food. We’ve touched on the massive issues of land tenure, access, and security on the podcast before, but never enough. In many regions, land prices have been rising steadily for the past 50–100 years, becoming entirely disconnected from the land’s productive value—especially for those wanting to farm using regenerative agroecology. This has made land increasingly inaccessible for the next generation of farmers. Exacerbating the problem is the aging farmer population. In the U.S., the average age of farmers is 62, which means most are nearing retirement. What happens next?
With Ian McSweeney and Kristina Villa, co-founders of The Farmers Land Trust , we focus on first-generation pioneering organic and biodynamic farmers who plan to retire soon. Many have spent their lives building successful small businesses, running community-supported agriculture (CSA) programs, hosting events, providing education, and feeding countless people. Then there’s the next generation—capable farmers who’ve trained extensively, spent years working on others’ farms, and now dream of having their own land. Yet, they can’t afford the inflated market prices.
What can be done? One solution lies in shifting to common land ownership. Much like CSAs, the community can own the land, enabling a new generation of farmers to steward it. This often involves retiring farmers selling their land for significantly less—sometimes less than 50% of market value—unlocking opportunities for others to step in and carry the torch. This approach isn’t reserved for hippies, socialists, or communists; it’s gaining traction across the U.S. and, in some cases, is even supported by federal initiatives.
Ian and Kristina explain why there’s suddenly so much momentum in what has traditionally been a slow-moving area.
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Why land tenure and land security are key to the future of food. We covered the gigantic issues of land tenure, access and security a bit on the podcast, but never enough. In many places, land prices have risen continuously over the last 50 to 100 years and are no longer connected to the real productive value, let alone if you want to do any kind of regen agroecology approaches, and thus making it completely unaccessible for the next generation of farmers to enter. Making matters worse, way worse, is the average age of farmers, especially in the US and Europe 62 in the US, which means retirement age. So what to do With our guests of today? We focus on the first generation pioneering organic and biodynamic farmers who want to retire in the next few years. They've spent their lives building successful small businesses, often running community supported agriculture, events, education, while feeding a lot of people. Then we have the next generation of capable farmers. They've done their training, spent years working on other people's farms and want to get a place of their own and I'm doing air quotes here on their own piece. They can never afford the market prices for the land. So what to do? One of the solutions lies in bringing the land in common ownership, just like community supported agriculture, the community should own the land as well. This usually means the farmer is willing to sell the land for a way lower price and I'm talking way lower, like 50% or less than the market prices which unlocks and enables so many possibilities for new generations to steward the land and feed a lot of people. And no, you don't have to be a hippie, a socialist or a communist. This is now finally also happening across the US and in some cases, even supported by the federal government. We check in with some of the leaders in the land ownership space and why there is suddenly so much momentum in a normally slow-moving space.
Speaker 1:This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast Investing as if the planet mattered, where we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return. Why my focus on soil and regeneration? Because so many of the pressing issues we face today have their roots in how we treat our land and our sea, grow our food, what we eat, wear and consume, and it's time that we as investors big and small and consumers, start paying much more attention to the dirt slash food what we eat, wear and consume, and it's time that we as investors big and small and consumers, start paying much more attention to the dirt slash soil underneath our feet. To make it easy for fans to support our work, we launched our membership community and so many of you have joined us as a member. Thank you If our work created value for you and if you have the means and only if you have the means joining us. Find out more on gumroadcom slash investing in regen ag that is, gumroadcom slash investing in regen ag or find the link below Welcome to another episode.
Speaker 1:We're the co-founders of the Farmers Land Act, developing equitable, scalable and inspiring solutions to protect farmland and secure tenure for farmers. Welcome back, ian, and welcome to the show, christina.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you Great to be here and, as we discussed in the pre-chat already, we don't pay enough attention to land ownership. It's something land tenure and we're going to get into all the different words and land access, or access to land on this podcast, and we were wondering why that is, and we're going to get into that. But, first of all, I want to welcome back Ian, who was here in 2018, for the people who remember that, it's been a while and I'm going to definitely link the interview we did back then in the show notes and a lot has happened since then, so we're going to click, uh, double click, on that and see what you're working on now. But, of course, I want to first welcome christina to the show and ask a question we'd like to ask everyone and what brings you to spending most of your awake hours focusing on land tenure, on farmers, the land side of things and how to get, let's say, land into the hands of people that are managing it for the long run?
Speaker 1:What brought you to this? I mean, there are easier career paths, let's say, and there are easier things to focus on. This is definitely not one of those easy ones. What made you focus on this, this super, um, let's say hairy, audacious goal yeah, there is.
Speaker 2:There are such easier career paths. That is true. I feel like land work is so long, it's long term and it's also so deep. It touches on so many aspects of people's life their family relations, their financial, their after death plans. It's so involved. And then the capital.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's why we don't discuss it so much, Like it's very yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's hard and emotional and difficult and layered, and land transition takes so many different aspects of work to complete. So bringing together all of not just the capital for funding needed but the capital and resources needed as far as tax advice or legal advice, it's just so much. But yeah, so how did I get here? What led me here? I didn't start in this sort of idea or headspace. It was never in my life's dream that I was going to work on land access and land tenure and land security for farmers. I guess I started not on the focus of soil but on the focus of food.
Speaker 2:I grew up in a food insecure household, which I guess is the educated white woman way of saying that. I grew up hungry, but I think the food insecurity and like how we talk about that is like what's normalized and sadness that goes along with being a child who suffers from hunger and doesn't have the ability to go out and purchase food on their own or acquire food on their own. And you know, when I grew up becoming an able bodied adult who could make money to then go purchase food, that sort of thing, I even then, as a young adult, was very aware that the access to food that I had through a grocery store also wasn't great, wasn't nourishing, wasn't good for me and my body and wasn't good for my community, like it was just so clear to me, even as an 18 year old who was exploring food in a different lifestyle way.
Speaker 1:Um then, how was it clear to you? Or how did you like? Was it missing taste or like, how did you? Because for many people, first of all, of course, having access to food and regular access and secure access to enough calories, and then, but the next step of how it's grown, et cetera, is not something that most 18 year olds, let's say, are constantly worried with. Don't start emailing me, I know there are many that are, but it's not a normal. Once you have access to food, how did that switch happen from? Okay, actually, I want access to good food, to better food or differently grown food. Nutritional quality, et cetera is a lot of layers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it was so interesting because I spent so long being without and like in this moment of you know, like scarcity and not, and I in that time in my life I had always imagined like what it would be like to be able to go into a grocery store and get anything I wanted. It felt when I would go home and make it and consume it. It didn't feel fulfilling in the way that I had always imagined it would and it almost went so far the other way of like well, now I can have anything and everything, so it doesn't even matter what is special or unique about it. Everything in the produce aisle looks like plastic, like it looks like a child's toy house where you set it up with those plastic little fruits and vegetables. Like it wasn't even, like it didn't feel real to me. It felt like we swung so far the other way.
Speaker 1:I'm laughing because I saw like a barbie with a. She was, I think, the farmers, the farmers, the farmer's market. Barbie somewhere I did buy it, don't worry. I think too, but that looked really plasticky, yeah, and it represents the zucchini in the supermarket, or less a bit smaller, but yeah.
Speaker 2:It was in that, in that timeframe too, that like that was my life, like, okay, I can go to a grocery store and get any food I want.
Speaker 2:But also I was volunteering a lot in food banks and soup kitchens and with a very radical food organization called Food Not Bombs, and so that's where I was spending.
Speaker 2:All of my free time was like in these places where people were hungry and we were trying to feed them and the disparities between those were just so drastic to me. Between those were just so drastic to me. And you know, it was through that that I it was like a moment of epiphany of like I could just start growing food and then I could give it to all of these hungry people and I would have real food for myself. And never in my life had I ever been around a garden or anyone who grew food. Like was fully an act of radical snub to the paradigm that we live in or the government or the ecosystem that has created this unjust reality that we all live in. I'm just going to opt out of this system and I'm just going to grow my own food and then I'm going to share it with people and that is how I'll nourish myself and help my community and so like that's where it started and then how did that go?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, no, it went um, okay. I mean it was good because, like I grew a ton of food and that was really great and it was, it was really profound, it was a deeper connection with nature than I had ever experienced and also it was absolutely astounding the amount of food that me, as a novice gardener who had never done this in my entire life, could produce on such a small space and fill a need for human beings. Like I have to keep doing this, like this is obviously what I have to keep doing, like it was addictive. You know, like that, like that abundance that could come out of such a small amount of land and then what it could mean for people.
Speaker 2:But no, I was an awful garden. My first garden was awful, like I mean, compared to now. You know, like now I have a farm and there's like acres and acres of vegetables, every you know it's a very different situation. But in that, in that first garden, I did not know what I was doing and I did a lot of embarrassing things. But it went great and produced a ton of food and brought it to the food banks and shared it with my neighbors and fed myself, and then from there I was like well, I need to learn how to farm.
Speaker 2:Clearly I need to learn how to do this on like a large scale. So I started farming. I, you know, changed my life completely, moved to the oldest and largest organic farm that I could wanted to lead, because I think there's a difference there, because a lot of farms can be like organic, certified farms and they're great for food production. But I was also looking for a lifestyle that connected me to land and food year round and also created that connection with community, and so once I found a farm that was like the ideal of what I also wanted to live, I moved there to learn how to do that, and then I spent several years there learning how to farm, how to manage a CSA and many other aspects of farm and communal living.
Speaker 1:I think everybody knows, but just if you want to Google it and you are wondering what is that, wondering what is that? And so it's interesting you mentioned year-round actually, because many farms, even many large-scale organic ones, are obviously are not meant to to be around year-round, even in terms of work, in terms of lifestyle. It's very industrialized, very seasonal and that's it which is one of the big issues in in agriculture. So what was that farm like? It was a considerable CSA. What kind of farm should we imagine?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, the CSA had a little over 100 members and the farm hosted many events, including music festivals and workshops and educational events, and then regularly was open to other people who also wanted to learn how to grow food. Some really valuable aspects to me about it was that year round component that you're talking about, because it wasn't viewed as just a way to make a living or just a way to turn a profit or this industrial thing. It was really viewed as a lifestyle around how do I want to eat year round, how do I want to support myself nutritionally and spiritually and ways of connecting to land and people. And so I learned how to freeze and can and ferment and, you know, process all of my own food and saving it year round, but also like what things can continue to grow throughout the winter and just, yeah, a lot of lifestyle, like, really like how to eat like a farmer.
Speaker 2:You know like, yeah, and it was through that, so I spent many years coming in there so, yeah, so then.
Speaker 2:So I learned how to farm. I'm like I'm totally ready to go farm. I'm like I can start a farm now. And I absolutely could not afford a farm. I absolutely was never, ever going to be able to afford to buy a farm. And it was then that this whole new epiphany of opening a new door to a whole new universe is what it felt like around the inequities and disparities around land access, ownership and tenure in this country, and how systematic land theft has happened and tenure in this country, and how systematic land theft has happened, and how land is completely out of touch and reach for new and beginning farmers, and how existing mid-career farmers are land insecure and scared of losing their land every day. The realities around land, the prices of the access to all of it. It was mind blowing. And then I realized this is actually what I need to be spending my time on, Because deeper than food is the crisis around land.
Speaker 1:Now it's fascinating because it's very similar and actually it's the reason. I know Ian through Thomas Ripple and I saw you recently interviewed him on your blog who did, I think, four-year education in Switzerland to become a biodynamic farmer and then could absolutely not afford his own farm and that led him into the land and Cotouland and the land access and tenure and security piece. And then what this door opens to this whole new universe. This is a massive underlying some call it Wouter Veer, who we interviewed of Lentoland, calls it. Probably the reason why we're in this mess is private land ownership and all of the other things that come out of that. I'm not saying that's true or we should go that far, but it's definitely one of the big drivers. So this door opens and you see, let's say, the massive challenges with that. Did you also immediately see opportunities? Or was it mostly like, oh God, this is not, like this is so big, like how we're going to even start chipping away of this gigantic stone?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think some people see a huge challenge or see the root of all evil, or see the issue and then like, dive at it. And I am just one of those people and I just can't. You know, it's like, once you see what is the root cause of all of these other systemic societal issues, you cannot help but want to do something about it. And you know, I wanted to address food access first and to support the people who are providing food to the society is like a deeper way to support food access and food systems. And yeah, I mean I'm sure there are so many different ways and tactics to go about supporting not just land access but land tenure, land security, supporting not just land access but land tenure, land security. And I just when you're like, did an opportunity present itself.
Speaker 2:It was like right at that same time in my life where Ian walked into my kitchen and started telling me this idea he had about holding land in common, and I absolutely said to him I was like chopping vegetables. And I turned around and looked at him. I was like you want farmers to do what? That's crazy. I totally was like that's insane. And then, but then, the more we talked about it and the more I learned about it, the more I saw like, oh, actually, this is a brilliant way to move capital and resources in support of individual farmers and farmer collectives and communities. This is a brilliant way to bring together so many of the different aspects that are needed to do this huge lift of land work. And yeah, so really the opportunity that just walked into my life was Ian, and then I was like we should work together and he was like no thanks, and it took a little while of that of being like let me work with you. And then finally he was like, okay, fine, let's bring.
Speaker 1:Ian into the conversation, literally walking into a kitchen. How did that happen? And first of all, welcome back Ian on the show. What made you walk into that kitchen? And first of all, welcome back ian on the show. Um, what made you walk into that kitchen and then not wanting to work and then ended up wanting to work like what? What was the? What's the?
Speaker 3:story.
Speaker 3:Yeah, great story and how wonderful story.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm doing well and great to be back and, uh, yeah, happy to dive in um, so, so right, I I had the opportunity to walk into Christina's kitchen and enjoy a dinner.
Speaker 3:Uh, because I was uh working with kind of discussing planning with this elderly exiting farmer who who, um, was thinking about the transition of farm and that had been a lot of my work I had at that point in time was running a private foundation that supported with capital and financial capital in my time and resources to transition farms mainly that kind of elderly exiting farmers organic, biodynamic, csa farmers transition the land into either community or next generation farmer tenure.
Speaker 3:And so Ed had been talking about and kind of planning and envisioning with this older farmer future of his farm, so came for a visit to discuss with him and then meet Christina and her husband, who were next generation farmers at that point in time, and to kind of connect to these two generations one that was, you know, had been carrying forward and creating this farm and was discussing letting go, and one that was coming on to take over the farm and and carry forward into the future of this farm and um, so literally you were working on transition to help Christina to get onto the land of this older retiring farmer Right and I kind of was doing that and had done that with a number of farmers around the US and saw the difficulties in that, difficulties in personalities, relationships, capital needed, the business and real estate transitions needed.
Speaker 3:And I think maybe just my perspective, but I think perhaps Christina was kind of excited for the idea and this older farmer as well was excited for the idea and not having done this before, thinking perhaps it was going to be easier to, you know, for older farmer to let go and pass forward and and next younger farmer to take on and have autonomy and independence to grow their business. And I had just seen far too many times that it's not that easy, that uh, there's challenges in the people, in the capital, in the time needed, in the details of things. And so I had tried many times that easier approach just with the individuals and that led me to think about creating these nonprofit common structures to bring in this kind of neutral third party organization that is kind of aligned with and carried forward by the community at large, kind of using the CSA models community side to value more than the annual food production but to value the long-term tenure and holding of that farm real estate and that community as kind of the connection piece between the generations of farmers that are, you know, letting go and stepping forward, and so that I felt was a really needed model to buffer the different sides and to navigate the process and to support and bring capital forward in different ways. So at that point in time I'd done a handful of kind of one-off projects with this kind of community common structure and had worked with this one of the first two original CSAs in the US that started and they did not have land tenure and that working with them helped to kind of inspire me and it helped co-create this community-supported land tenure structure with them and then I kind of trialed that elsewhere. So I had a few examples of how it worked and was successful.
Speaker 3:But it was still early stage and what I came into Christina's house into the kitchen table describing was kind of taking these one-off projects and creating this kind of national example and model of and launching out with multiple commons around the country with diverse examples of farms and farmers and communities and that feeling there was a national US interest in this and a real need for this because of the kind of farmland-based work that has gone on in Europe over the last couple of decades saw the kind of work around national and local two entity structures to hold tenure for farmers and to hold ownership of the real estate in these nonprofit community structures and that being a vehicle for attracting capital in that being a vehicle for being that intermediary party, and saw the success there and saw the need in the US.
Speaker 3:And you know, at that point it was a vision and an idea that it was going to work. And part of, I think, any vision is that balance of kind of wild insanity and hope and belief that something is going to work and kind of a persistence to stick with it and find a way to make it work. And enough grounded realism that you know aspects of it you've done enough of around and you know those building blocks are enough to get it so far and your vision can get it further. And yeah, over time Christina became a convert and was convinced. And here we are right.
Speaker 1:And because that fascinates me? Because basically, if I understood, rightina was trying to figure out a way with her husband to take over the farm, um, and to to have full ownership of the real estate and the farm, and which is very tricky because in many places these, uh, the land is extremely expensive and completely disconnected from um, the carrying capacity or the production capacity or whatever we want to call it um, unless maybe you're an extreme monoculture, industrialized, subsidized systems. And then you walk in and say, yeah, let's put the land, let's put it in the commons, and like you're not going to own it. Basically there's a solution but you're not owning it. And your answer you already gave it because you know it's like you're crazy, that sounds insane.
Speaker 1:Why would you do that and um, and then, how did it grew on you or how did you? Because it sounds very logical and it's completely different from how we operate in land normally, like private ownership, like you have to own it, you have to. There's there's sort of focus on in general in housing and real estate, I think it's, it's connected to many in cars and mobility, et cetera. How did that idea grew on you and how did you? Became a convert, as Ian said?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean everything you just said. It's all so real and so true and the visionary aspect, that's scary to people. Vision is scary to people and so this newness of it is so real. But I definitely I think that my response and answer goes back to something that you just said, which is that I wasn't necessarily trying to take over the farm.
Speaker 2:You know, like I wanted to transition with the farm, I wanted to get to continue being a part of that farm, and that was there was so much love there between all of the community members who supported that farm, all of the people who worked on that farm, the land owner, me, like we all. There was so much love and respect and admiration for all that we all brought and did and what we valued and held and and what we brought to community and to the world together, like we really cherished and appreciated all that we were building the world together. Like we really cherished and appreciated all that we were building. And so it was never about like, how do I become the owner of this? That was just the only way I could think about it. And so this introduction of like, this new way of thinking about being in relationship to land is what, immediately, anything different than you're used to is scary and jarring. You know different. Anything different than you're used to is scary and jarring. And so, yeah, the immediate first impact was like, wait what? That makes no sense. But then the realization and the personal experience of how the economic system that we are living within does not make sense for farmers and for land, and how land prices are completely out of touch with reality, all of those things, and how extra support from outside organizations and people are needed and really I think that Ian kind of touched on this earlier, but the idea of using the CSA model and then applying it to land tenure, like that all started to make sense and fall into place and how this could be used to rectify and heal past harms and social injustices, like all of these aspects became super interesting to me.
Speaker 2:And then it was like, yeah, like clearly we can't do this by ourselves, like we've been trying, we want to, but it was just so clear that all of these other supports and these legal structures and these opportunities for capital to flow in different ways were going to be much more supportive than us just trying to figure it out on our own when that's what all the other farms, the 37 that close every single day in this country, and all the other acres, the 2,000 that are lost from like?
Speaker 2:They all tried figuring it out on their own and they couldn't and I didn't want it to be lost to that and so. But then it grew beyond myself, like becoming aware of this and getting to see and be a part of this work. It was so. I was so gravitating toward it and wanting to be part of, like, bigger picture, that bigger push, not in just this one farm and the impact it can have, but the larger landscape of farming and farmland and farmers who need support and realizing the impact that protecting and transitioning land could have on the bigger scale of the societal issues that we're all facing. I wanted to do that so badly and yeah and so how did it get then?
Speaker 1:because you said both of you like people have been trying and you've been working with people on a one-off um project after project, which you probably could do for the rest of your life, because there's so many, especially now biodynamic, original, biodynamic, organic people that are getting to that or actually are in that um retirement age and and don't want to sell to a developer and don't want to. But that's like how do they transition generational wise land wise, real estate, living, uh, pension, all of that? Um, there's a whole group now like you could be doing that easily every day of the week for for the next x years. Um, how did that then transition to the farmers land trust into, like, how do we do this more on a systemic, structured almost way to not just do one-off? What was the solution? What is the solution or what are you getting to to do that at scale?
Speaker 1:Because that's always not my issue with my challenge with with the land ownership and access and tenure Like, how do we get to things that move? Because you mentioned the beginning, this is slow but still we need to move a lot of land over the next 10 years and a lot is lost every day 37 farms, as you mentioned. I'm like how do you dance with that tension of, okay, one farm at a time, but we should do 37 a day, which is true.
Speaker 3:I think part of it for me was that. So my work years ago that I mentioned was with this private foundation and so up until the last three or four years of my time with the foundation, the last three or four years of my time with the foundation, um, they, the founders, uh, had no interest in a website in. They never had interest in social media, had very little interest in kind of communications out. Um and a few of these kind of one-off projects that I mentioned, like with that original CSA in the US with a few new American incubator farms here in the Northeast in New England, we began to kind of partner with press to tell stories and also layer in crowdsourced philanthropic fundraising, both as a way to raise capital towards that transition but also as a way to broadly engage community at large in giving some money but more so in just engaging, doing something tangible to care about a project that could, you know their dollars could actually make a difference to transition land into community. And that partnership with press and storytelling just amplified each of these projects so significantly that it was just a real awareness awakening for me that you know that grounded, one farm at a time, work only has so much of a impact. The ripple is minimal beyond that community that it serves. But if you can partner that on the ground work with storytelling, we can begin to change awareness of so many more and begin to build a new narrative.
Speaker 3:And so a handful of years ago I did a podcast with this woman, heather McGee, who frames this. As you know, we are, our beliefs and how we operate are all founded in the stories we're told, are all founded in the stories we're told, and we need new stories, and until we get new stories, we're never going to be open to something new or something innovative or those scary things that are different than what we're comfortable with. So you know, the tangible on the ground projects are good in the local community, but to partner with communications and storytelling can ripple out, you know, around the country, around the world. We've seen it with a number of projects since, and so really that's my work has always been on the real estate, raising capital, bringing parties together in that transactional work. Christina's school and work before we connected was all communications based. So our partnering in this work to equally prioritize communication, storytelling, raising awareness and the transactional work of real estate and capital movement together it becomes so powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll just add that, those one-off projects, it's so important to do that and then to share those stories out. Then people are able to see themselves in those. And our focus has really been on doing different projects around the country that all touch on different aspects of community of land, of type of farming, of geographic place, you know, of type of land ownership structure, like all of these different things that then other people see an aspect of themselves and then they start to think I can do that too and that, to think I can do that too, and that is how you ignite a movement like that, is how you change the way that we are owning and in relationship with land is when other people start to take on what you're doing and do it themselves.
Speaker 1:And to that effect, you know, we've created this farmland commons model and along with that are all of these legal templates that are because then if people start looking and there's nothing to find, they're like oh, you need a very expensive lawyer that we were able to afford because we got a donation. It gets completely out of reach for most people. So when people get excited, they need some kind of tool to then get into action, and so that wasn't there. What you developed basically wasn't there. Those templates weren't there to begin with.
Speaker 2:Right, but they are now as open resource and anyone anywhere can go and download them and then use them on their own so they can create a farmland commons without even engaging with us. Or, of course, we can help and support and guide and offer assistance in any way. But I think that that extra step is so crucial in making this something that is more accessible and then done and acted on by everyone is by raising awareness, by telling those stories, by letting people know that they can do it too, and then by providing the resources then so that they can do it too.
Speaker 1:And so how? What is an example you like to give? Like you said, we've been doing different. I've seen schools on your website as well. We've been doing different kind of projects, still project by project, but to touch upon the different puzzle pieces of this system, change and then show what is possible and have the templates. What are a few of the examples that connect with people? What are the ones you would like to share? Of course, they're all amazing, but which are the ones you love to share here?
Speaker 3:Well, I think part of it is what Christina was sharing, like the diversity of projects. Part of what motivates me for this work in general is the belief that we are so disconnected and daily there's new ways that commoditize us and further disconnect us from each other and from the land. And this opportunity in this generation and next, to reconnect with the land or move land into new structures that allow connection to it, I feel may be our last opportunity to reconnect with the land and with each other.
Speaker 1:And if lost.
Speaker 3:You know, we are headed towards a far different world and we're already experiencing that in so many ways of you know, social isolation of commoditized relationships and services that disconnect us from everything.
Speaker 3:So you know, and so much of politics, so much of commerce, is built on fear and fear of the other and and that further separates us.
Speaker 3:So you know, there are some really great individual projects, like you know, the to to focus on on kind of marginalized communities, uh, black and indigenous ownership where they've been excluded from land in urban areas and rural areas.
Speaker 3:To focus on kind of Appalachia in this country that has been ignored and extracted from in so many ways is so important.
Speaker 3:To focus on kind of exiting biodynamic and organic farms that have built community for decades and now don't have successor and yet have this community and have this farm, then finding a way to transition that farm and carry forward the community, like really so important in such rich projects. But the bigger picture, I think, is the diverse differences between these projects geographically around the US and the communities, the people, the land, the agriculture served by these, because it represents such distinct differences that in so many ways are polarized against each other because of so many systems and forces that exist in this country. But if we're doing this all around a shared value system for these farmland commons that embed in them values for land, for agriculture, for relationship and carrying that forward across all of these. It's building some shared values in very polarized, distinctly different areas of the country and and that builds connection and I think that connection is probably the most important thing we can do in our lives in this work. Um.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know. Usually we get outreach from either farmers who are already farming or growing food and who need land, who need tenure to land or need land security, want a different option for how their land is owned, moving forward, and who have been stewarding and caring for soil and land and building community and building markets and building infrastructure for so long and they don't want to see that all lost. They want to see it transition to the next generation with care. And those two groups of people are like the rawest, truest base of the work that we do.
Speaker 2:But what is giving me hope and what is newer in our work are these organizations that are reaching out to us, who have been ag adjacent for many decades and who have supported farmers through resources, education, conferences, events and who have spent a lot of time in the past years doing education and outreach and raising awareness through toolkits about land access land access, you know, like that, that hot topic that was so cool to talk about and who are now ready to actually do something about it, who are ready to take action and who are ready to make tangible steps towards making a difference in their local community around land ownership and tenure.
Speaker 2:And those organizations who reach out to us, who want to start Farmland Commons because they see the need is greater than just talking about it anymore. That is so inspiring to me. Like to see a rallying happen in community beyond just the people first impacted by it, like beyond just the farmers who can't access land because of racism or because of capitalism, and beyond just the farmers who are aging out and like in despair over what is going to be their future and their land's future. But actually these community members who want to do something about it is so inspiring.
Speaker 3:A large sector of those organizations too, in the US are land trusts that you know. We in the US have had a conservation land movement that dates back to the late 1800s and much of that from then forward through today is about separation. Like so many other systems and structures that exist, it, you know, conserves and protects lands by limiting uses of lands, by separating certain rights away from land and then monitoring and enforcing against people using land. In certain ways and it's myopic in many ways in its approach it displaces indigenous communities of stewarding land, of carrying forward connection relationship agriculture on land that is really solely created within that 100 plus year perspective.
Speaker 1:And yet, you know, agriculture is the land. I mean, some of these are now, because it's a big piece, obviously, of separating nature and agriculture and not being able to accept or imagine that that could happen, like biodiversity could happen on a farm. It doesn't have to be behind a fence in a national park. I'm exaggerating here. Of course it's not that black and white, but there's a massive narrative there that is very strong. We have to preserve here and we have to produce here, and that could never, the two will never meet, right, um, or shall never meet, do you? Do you see that that war is crumbling, or that narrative war at least is crumbling a bit?
Speaker 3:yeah, oh, completely and but very recently, up until maybe the last decade or so, the the only kind of uh, bringing together of those things was a trail or education. You know we'll separate people from the land with specific rules of how it can be used or not, to see things much more holistically and to kind of be guided by indigenous wisdom and to respect kind of identity of people and place and that community and to kind of let them lead and have autonomy in how things are protected and conserved. But it's still on the fringes in many ways, but it gets a lot more awareness now and there's a lot more talk and discussion and interest. So it's really a wonderful opportunity now and that's something that we see and is a lot of.
Speaker 3:Our focus is engaging these conservation land trusts across the US and sharing with them this farmland commons model, because really it's something they can do to, you know, expand and evolve some of what they do with some land holdings they have. They don't have to walk away from everything else they're doing. They can continue operating as they have, but they can move some of the more active land, agriculture, land, community land into a farmland common structure and that's part of these template documents and resources we provide is so existing nonprofits, existing land trusts, could simply pick up the model and create it connected to them and in doing so, reframe how they're holding land, how they steward land, who has autonomy and decision-making, control and equity on that land and through that they have significant capital in the land they hold, in the financial resources they hold, but much of that in the relationship to landowners that they have.
Speaker 3:And given that in the US farmland owners' average age is over 62, and so many land trusts have worked to conserve that farmland, so it will not be developed or extracted but there's no guarantee it's going to be a farm and as generationally transitions out of that farmer's operation and use, like these, land trusts are well positioned to be the steward of that transition. If they only had a different structure of how they're doing that.
Speaker 1:So are you saying part of the interest now in the last maybe half a decade or a decade, is also driven by simply the age, the aging population of farmers. They're starting to see, like, who is actually and how is this land going to be farmed over the next decades, as it's not so clear anymore that there is a next generation stepping into the same system, as many won't? Um, and actually another, do you see enough farmers to fill those shoes? Like is on the? I'm not saying demand and supply, but how big is that group of new generation farmers like Christine that wants to and is able to, that has the training because many people want to?
Speaker 1:We've all seen the stories and other stories of people burning out on a market garden. It's hard work, you can make it work, but everything in farming is hard work. You can make it work, but it's everything in farming is hard work, like how? How big is that group? And and do you see any challenges there in terms of, okay, we've now have land in common, who's actually going to farm that day to day and and who steps into those those shoes?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean this is a topic that comes up very often because there are so many aging, retiring farmers that just Ian and I talk to even that say, on a repeat, we just can't find anyone to come farm this land. And then every single day, within hours of that, we'll talk with young and beginning farmers who are like we can't find any land.
Speaker 2:We're farming already, but we're not on land that is secure. We don't have long term. You know, it's such a funny thing where, like I mean you brought up in like a kind of case of humor of like the supply and demand, but like we see, it there. Westernized culture has this idea of independence and this thing about, like, I have to create my own thing, and that is a mismatch for aging, retiring farmers who are wanting to pass their legacy on Like. There is a clash there of wanting to.
Speaker 1:You're saying, many want to start with the idea of I want a clean shade and I build a sheet of paper and I build everything from scratch. Right, Good luck. First of all, and second, probably not the best thing to do farm that has had soil built over decades and fencing and roads and barns.
Speaker 2:Like that is such a valuable thing to transition, let alone the things that these older farmers know and the wisdom that they have to share. Like that is all of such value. But this, the clash of it, of like wanting to start your own thing and then this older generation wanting to pass theirs on, like that's so difficult. And then add in the personal dynamics, like personalities, are hard. Typically, the type of people who are drawn to farming are very strong, willed, independent people who you know want to do things their way as it is. And then add in people who have already been getting to do whatever they want for 40 years on a piece of land, who feel like the king or queen of their domain. That's hard. And then the geography of it Farms are set in a place you cannot move them, and people who are new and beginning farmers don't usually want to move, and part of it is just fear. Will they make new friends? Will they have markets that support their business?
Speaker 1:A lot of that is unknown and that's scary, and people want to be where they already have roots, and so there are so many different factors to this but of those two, we know which one is going to move, because it's not going to be the farm, right, you move, you don't, and the farm is going to be there, or it's going to be lost, right and so yeah, and so we need some give and take, though.
Speaker 2:We need some give and take of like the people who are this incoming generation. Like they need to be willing to move sometimes. Like they need to be willing to let go of some of these things for this opportunity that is in front of them and not just for them as people, but for the good of humanity, for the good of our future of the earth. Like we need to figure out how to work this out better and probably that's that touches upon another piece.
Speaker 1:It's very difficult to do this alone in, like the couple farmer or the one part, like you have to be good at.
Speaker 1:How do you see that?
Speaker 1:That tendency we've talked about it a few times on on the podcast like these clusters of farms or how do you see that fits especially well, I think, in in the commons model and we discussed it with thomas ripple actually back in the day as well on that.
Speaker 1:They helped to transition a retiring biodynamic farmer or organic I'm not sure if they were also biodynamic and from one family that could live on the land or could be supported by the land they went to five because they were able to really push what the production could do within, of course, ecological limits. And I'm also imagining it's way nicer, if you get along well, etc, of course, to have four other families around instead of being the one, even if you're an amazing biodynamic organic farm and you're still alone, basically on the on the land. Like how do you see that, that it all has to be a single family farm narrative, compared to many places to reality, like it's better to manage together and to share resources, economies of scale, to share the land in that sense, processing and and all of that, like what? What is your vision on that narrative of the single family farm is going to be? Um, mainly not driven by? Is driving this, this, this regenerative transition?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think you know we talked about how we believe the stories were told, like that is a myth, this idea of the single family farm being what we should do, or what will be fulfilling, or what will bring us happiness.
Speaker 1:What we see on YouTube.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is not real and I think that, similar to how, in the past decade, people are opening up to different ways of pairing land conservation with land production and agriculture, thinking about different ways of land ownership, I think people are also starting to realize that farming, like most things, should happen in community and that farming, in this one idea of a family farm is so isolating and limiting to what you can produce and how enriched your life can be.
Speaker 3:It's so challenging too. I think. Like a couple fronts, so one. That narrative of the single individual or couple as the farm is reinforced by zoning, in this country, residentially zoned land. In this country, over 70% of acres that are residentially zoned are zoned for a single family house and nothing more. So it's impossible, because of the legal structures we've created, to allow more than one family to live on a farm.
Speaker 1:Even if you could do it economically, ecologically, socially.
Speaker 3:That would still be. Yeah, and yet so you know, us is a much younger country as far as agriculture and kind of built out landscape, as far as agriculture and kind of built out landscape. But here in New England there's decades and centuries of farming that has kind of waxed and waned over time and you see the evidence of the old stone walls or the larger houses and there were much larger houses, farmhouses, because one farmers had much bigger families than the average family size now, so there was multiple children to carry forward the farm and there was kind of people, migrant people who would come in and farm and live in houses, so that many farmhouses had eight, 10 or more bedrooms for family and non-family farmers who would come in. And now those same houses are occupied by two, two and a half, three people at most, and that's the farmer and no other farmer can live on site because of the zoning, these relics of much larger houses that kind of accommodated a farming community in place, but our legal structures of zoning don't allow that at all anymore. So that's such a challenge. That's part of it, I think, and another part we don't. We people in general don't act until things are a crisis in so many ways and it's a reaction you know, at the last 11th hour at that in so many ways.
Speaker 3:So you know farmers many farmers are not willing to consider letting go until they're forced to because of some life event or something. They would be much better off to start that incrementally a decade ago or something, because what they've created is a mature business and what they're then looking at for successors is new and beginning business entrepreneurs. And they're looking at them saying you don't measure up to what I know, what I can do. You can't understand this business and in some they're totally right. Like what beginning entrepreneur in a business is ready to take over a 40 or 50 year old mature business? Like in other business sectors there'd be more of a transition or you bring in experienced management to carry forward that transition into a next generation. But the farmers are farms are small enough that they don't have a management team Like. They're not larger like other business sectors, but they're. They need to think about that age and life cycle of a business and where and how they can match next generation farmers into that in an appropriate way.
Speaker 1:And, looking at all this, what is your? I love to ask this question in a way. Imagine we're on stage in a theater, let's say, in the financial heart of New York City or somewhere with a lot of financial people Mainly I usually say investors in the room could be managing their own wealth or other people's wealth. Of course they're interested, excited. We do this live on stage. I've had a lot of examples, beautiful pictures, maybe we had good food as well before. But we also know people forget. What would be one thing you want them to remember the next day and I, of course, want to hear from both of you what are something that the next day they're at their desk and what do you want them to remember and potentially even do? What would be an action for people specifically working in the world of financial resources and finance?
Speaker 3:Our narrow focus on financial capital at the exclusion of all other forms of capital is destroying the earth and ourselves. Our expectations around return on that financial capital and where equity is held creates a gross injustice to people and planet. And we're at these multiple points of crisis, whether climate, whether demographics, whether you know, on and on and we only have so many years of topsoil left on this planet, like we need to change course before it's too late. You know, and that's rhetoric that so many people say and it does not sink in much.
Speaker 2:Lent, yeah, and you, christina, many people say and it does not, uh, sink in much land. You know it's. And you, christina? Yeah, you know, I have been a biodynamic farmer for 10 years now, or 12 yeah, wow, time eludes me but a while.
Speaker 2:And as a regenerative farmer, I, we, the I work with, we give more to the soil and to the land than we take, and that is just standard. That is how we are able to create such abundance and beauty in the land and in the food that we take out of the land and in the food that we give to the community, and also in like what sustains us as a farm business and I hear this term regenerative finance, regenerative investment all the time and I just want people to think about that idea of like. Regenerative actually means that you're giving more than you're taking, and when we talk about investment, we're talking about getting more than we give, and those things just are not the same and I don't see how we can even try to pretend like they are anymore. Like, if we are going to create abundance and beauty and to actually change the paradigm and the systems that we're living in, we all need to be willing to give more than we're going to get back.
Speaker 1:And what would you do if we flip the conversation. Let's say you're in charge of a crazy amount of money In this case, I mean, it's been losing a bit of its amount because of inflation but let's say a billion dollars and you have extremely long time horizons, but it is an investment. Like, at some point, in some shape or form, it needs to come back. People have used it for lobbying as well when I asked this question. But let's say and I'm not interested in exact amounts and of course it's not investment advice, but what would be buckets you would focus on? I'm interested in how people prioritize if they have, in this case, almost unlimited resources. What would be for both of you, of course, your focus areas if you had one, a one with with nine zeros, with a lot of?
Speaker 3:zeros, basically farmland, farmland as a permanent investment, with, with the you know, the annual returns being non-financial returns to the investors and and would you just basically go out and buy?
Speaker 1:or how would you, yes, use it to to, because then it's not going to be done, it's not going to be finished quickly, but still it's going to be. It's going to go fast because of these crazy prices. Like, how would you use it for the max amount of impact, right?
Speaker 3:so go out and acquire fee title ownership of farmland, uh, and and use some sort of metric where, where it's a a percent of market based price, so you know it's it's not buying farmland on the market. It's a percent of market-based price. So you know it's not buying farmland on the market, it's not paying market price for it, but it's seeking out landowners who are willing to sell for 50% or less of market price. And it's clustering it in a handful of hubs around the country, so it's not scattershot everywhere. It's selecting a few regions that you know, thinking about things like climate collapse, thinking about things like water resources and climate migration, like where are those areas that farmland is more affordable now and natural resources are abundant and it's fairly safe in the face of these climate collapse events, and buying up fee title interest in significant farmland in hubs around those areas that are close enough to people and community, that are close enough to kind of other hubs to think about kind of interconnected regional food systems and this being the land base for them.
Speaker 1:And sorry to get to you, Christina, but what do you mean by fee title or what is that? What is different compared to just purchasing?
Speaker 3:No same. So the ownership in like as opposed to some.
Speaker 1:And then asking the tricky one how do you get farmers? We've covered it somewhere. But are people willing to sell for much lower than the official and I'm doing air brackets here because official doesn't mean anything but the crazy land prices that are quoted and that are sold for actually at the moment? People to let go for much less or little compared to what they might were dreaming of or might have heard from neighbors, and things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean we only work with landowners who are willing to donate their land or give a significant discounted bargain sale.
Speaker 1:And I think this idea.
Speaker 2:Like so many times. People say this sort of thing like how do you convince people? Like we don't have to convince people. There are plenty of people who own land around the country, who see the dire need that we are in in the face of climate collapse and dwindling resources and social inequities, and who want to use the power that they have in the form of land to do something good about it, and who are in the financial position where it's not harmful to them to let go at a, at a donation or a discount and if they are, are there ways to figure that out?
Speaker 1:to okay, a farmer says I need this in terms of retirement and it's not that crazy amount, but it is something like how do you deal with that? Because they've worked all their lives to build up a business a small, mid-sized business, and a lot more of course. Is there enough space in terms of financial learning to take care of a good retirement?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is so much space because market-based prices for farmland are out of touch with reality and they're astronomical, so anywhere under that market value, and really it's a conversation and it's relationship and it is this long-term work because all of this is built into that. And what does the exiting landowner actually need in a financial return to retire with dignity, comfortably, and coming to an understanding of what those needs actually are and then rallying a community to support that. They deserve that as an exiting landowner and we're willing to work with them to make that happen in cases where the community and societal impact is going to be great enough to warrant that.
Speaker 3:So many exiting farmers just want to exit the business Like they want to stay on the farm, they want to return to the soil and be buried on that farm and if that's an opportunity for a life estate and to live out your life in that house and then be buried on the land. Like they need far less money to exit because they don't need to buy a new house somewhere else, they don't need to move.
Speaker 1:They don't need as long as you can build another place there or have people live on there, and not just one family or one house, like we discussed right. So there's um, yeah and and no tension. Of course, it's always interesting to have the former business owner, uh, still around on land. Amazing opportunity and amazing challenges, yeah um, but that, but that's what is needed to deal with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the other piece too is that in the US, conservation Land Trusts for the last 100 plus years have developed this culture of land legacy for natural resource, open space, habitat protection and there's tens of thousands of acres donated every single year for conservation and open space land legacy purposes that? If that so, why wouldn't you do that right? Right that, if that culture could be expanded for agriculture, food systems, carbon sequestration, like all the things we say we value, instead of a trail named after you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, also nice.
Speaker 3:You can do both.
Speaker 1:You can do both. And what about you, christina? What would you do if, tomorrow morning, you woke up and had to put a billion dollars to work, which for many people is actually not a dream? People are like, oh, but it's a huge burden as well. How would you approach that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean this question of like what burden as well. How would you, how would you approach that? Yeah, I mean this question of like what if tomorrow you woke up and you were in charge of a billion dollar investment? Like no one in their right mind would ask me to do that. Like I don't think that that's a real um.
Speaker 1:I'm curious about priorities Like what would you focus on? I?
Speaker 2:mean, obviously I would do the exact same thing that Ian said that he would do. Like this is my passion and this is my work. This is what I'm obsessed with and what I do. But my entire life I have been focused on injecting resources and support to the people who need it. It's not been about how can I make more money doing this. That has just never been my priority, ever. And so no one in their right mind would give me a bunch of money and be like help me grow this money. They would give it to me because they would say Christina is going to do very good with this money. She's going to do a lot of good with this money. Like that is a more realistic thing for me to wake up to tomorrow morning is someone saying here's a billion dollars, go do good with it.
Speaker 1:And what would you do? Exactly what Ian said or slightly different? What would be your focus if somebody asked that?
Speaker 2:Well, I would do what Ian laid out in that owning farmland, but I would do it for this farmland commons model specifically, and knowing that the values and priorities that are baked within this legal structure and within all of the legal agreements are ones that prioritize human and planet health.
Speaker 1:And as a final question, which always leads, leads to, or usually leads to, more final questions. But let's, let's see where we, where we get to. If you had a magic wand and you could change one thing overnight, um, what would it be? Could be anything, so you're no longer in charge of your fund, but you have the magic power to change one thing overnight. What would it be? Like having to do with agriculture specifically could be consciousness, could be subsidies no, we've, we've better taste.
Speaker 3:Could be literally anything wow, okay so I would, uh, eliminate overproduction and overconsumption and specific to agriculture around. You know the overproduction of food, the overconsumption of food, it's killing us and it's killing our planet. And if we stop that and we recenter around the truth and build transparency around the truth of actually who does feed communities around the globe, it is not the overproduction of industrial ag, but it is small scale, mainly women led farms that are feeding majority of people around the world. So how could we bring that forward as a truth and magic wand, wave away that overproduction by using an industrial model of agriculture?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess on a micro level, if we're like if you were going to wave a magic round and change something about agriculture, like I just I had this really hard time with organic agriculture and how it uses plastics so much and that's just like a tiny little thing. That bothers me so badly as a biodynamic farmer that we don't use plastic is how all organic production uses so many layers of plastic for weed cover or for transplanting or for packaging and like that just blows. But if I'm zooming out and I'm allowed to do a magic wand for anything, then I would say redistribution of land to not prioritize those who just have the most money to pay for that land of magical like what could I change to dramatically positively impact all of our future?
Speaker 1:I said it was going to lead to another question, so I'm gonna definitely go there in and ian, it's been six years since we we talked and we talked climate collapse. We talked loss of connection. What has changed since then? What keeps you optimistic or what keeps you going on, let's say every day to work on this? We also talked about this is the last chance. We have to transition a lot and to create a more abundant future. Has things changed in the last six years? Have you seen I mean, we talked about the conservation trust other signs you're seeing. You've been in this space for quite a while. What have you seen?
Speaker 3:So what's most encouraging, I think, was this idea that we opened with that, you know, this kitchen table idea shared with Christina around these community commons to hold farmland, and I was wildly optimistic but cautious and concerned that it would be dismissed as a socialist communist plot in the US and nobody wants to move away from private property ownership and nobody's going to sell for less than market value, and on and on, like all those responses that that come forward, you know, continuously still. But what I'm most, uh, kind of inspired by is is the broad interest that has come forward for um, community centered farmland, common structures, that that they're, they're, you know there's awareness and interest that uh, in communities and landowners and organizations is awareness and interest at the federal funding level in kind of community land farmland ownership. That there's interest in different countries around the world that have reached out, that are doing work or exploring and trying to develop that work, that the the kind of emergent work and awareness that that we've connected.
Speaker 1:It wasn't there. It wasn't there.
Speaker 3:And I was. I was concerned that there wasn't enough of that even there to build something. But I was amazed by the amount that is there that has kind of connected to and amplified this work and and continues to evolve and create this work locally in communities around the globe. And I think that you know we're just at the beginning of kind of initial proof of concept. But building things now to scale us but also many others who are doing this, building things to scale with some longevity to them to begin to prove the impact they can make to right that focus on the land and that land tenure piece can eliminate so many other challenges we face. And financial kind of funding needs Majority of the farm bill in this country funds like food security programs that if a fraction of that was given to you know that billion dollars to acquire farmland like we could incrementally shrink that uh dollar spent on food security yeah, I think it's up to 40.
Speaker 1:It's almost half, I think, goes to food security projects, which we always talk of. Soil has to be part of the farm bill, et cetera, et cetera. But most of it goes to food security, which of course also has to be soil, but it's something people don't think about enough. And what about you, christina? In the 12 years you've been farming biodynamically, I can say what gives you hope? Or optimistic, but what, yeah, what? What drives you in that sense? What? What have you seen amongst climate collapse, disconnection, etc. From from almost everything? Um, what? What drives you in that? What gives you optimism?
Speaker 2:yeah, the optimism thing that I, so many people do, get burnt out on farming or in activism or in doing the good work that they do, but, like, what else can we do but to keep trying.
Speaker 2:You know, like we launched this out, we've done this commons work, we've piloted these commons, we like, helped and resource other communities, we shared these stories, and all while getting, yeah, like those questions, those concerns, but also like such positive feedback and interest and engagement. And then, and while we were doing this, you know this is all funded through philanthropic funding or private grants or private foundations, individual donors, that sort of thing. And there's so much public dollars available for conservation, land trusts that we've touched on, but never for the type of work we do, which is that fee acquisition and those common structures. So recently there was, for the very first time ever, public funding available through the federal government for land acquisition and when they announced the awarded projects, a very large percentage of them were for commons-based land projects and most of them were people that we had connected with or who had been impacted by our work. And that gives me chills, like that is that sort of movement, ignition that is needed. Me too, me too, that is that sort of movement, ignition that is needed.
Speaker 2:I mean that is profound, to change such high-level policy and to have people that saw this idea and took it to fruition and now are doing it on their own in their own communities. That is revolutionary.
Speaker 1:I think it's a perfect way to wrap up.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, both to come on here, to come on here again and to spend an hour or so with us to discuss land ownership, tenure, security, access and why it underlines or underpins so many of the challenges we have and the opportunities, because I think it was the title of our interview last time.
Speaker 1:There's 400 million hectares or acres that are transitioning and, for sure, in the last six years, a big chunk of that already happened, but a big chunk is still coming and and so it's our opportunity, or our, our challenge, to deal with that and the 37 farms chain um closing every day and many. We didn't touch upon the rest of the world, but this is very similar, with nuances differently, but land is is a huge uh issue and an opportunity in many parts of the world. So thank you so much for coming on here, thank you so much for the work you do and, of course, I'm looking forward to discuss more of it in the future and to keep uh, keep track of what you're, what you're up to thank you, thank you keep track of what you're up to Thank you Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. For the show notes and links we discussed in this episode, check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculturecom. Forward slash posts. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend or give us a rating on Apple Podcasts? That really helps. Thanks again and see you next time.
