Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
343 Jacob Parnell – Move over chemicals, biological inputs work, and we can provide farmers with accurate advices
A deep dive with Jacob Parnell, director of Agronomy at Biome Makers, into the evolving world of soil biology and biological inputs. Soil biology is the answer—no matter the question. While this may sound black-and-white, it is safe to say that soil biology holds the potential to resolve many global issues. So, where do we currently stand with soil biology research, and, more importantly, what does it mean practically for farmers? Many farmers are eager to transition away from heavy chemical inputs to biological alternatives. But, how do you know which ones work in your context?
Jacob discusses how the “black box” of biological inputs has disappeared in recent years. We now have enough trails and data to say to a farmer after done a soil biology test, this range of biological inputs will likely—up to 80% of the time—work well in your soils, providing specific, beneficial effects. This shift is revolutionary not only for farmers but also for the manufacturers of these products, who have historically marketed their products to work everywhere ( which obviously disappointed many farmers when they tried and product X didn’t perform). Now, companies can say "please don't buy this product which likely won’t work in your context; try this one instead”.
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Soil biology is the answer, whatever your question was. Of course, this is a bit black and white, but it's safe to say that soil biology will fix a lot of our issues globally. So what do we know at the moment? What's the state of soil biology research and, more importantly, what does it mean for farmers concretely? Many farmers would love to change from many of their heavy chemical inputs to biologicals, for example, but how you know which ones work in your context? Our guest of today shares how this black box of biologicals has disappeared over the last years. We now have enough trials and data to say to a farmer, after he or she has done a simple soil biology test, this range of biological inputs will probably, like 80% of the time, work really well in your soils and have this effect more or less. This is revolutionary, not only for farmers, but also for the manufacturers of these products, which until now, usually told everyone their products would work everywhere, which obviously disappointed many farmers when they tried and the product X didn't perform. Now companies can start to say please don't buy this product in your context because there are high chances it doesn't work, but try this one instead. As you can see, this is a deep dive in the world of soil biology and biological inputs.
Speaker 1:This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast investing as if the planet mattered, where we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return. Why my focus on soil and regeneration? Because so many of the pressing issues we face today have their roots in how we treat our land and our sea, grow our food, what we eat, wear and consume, and it's time that we, as investors, thank you If our work created value for you and if you have the means and only if you have the means consider joining us. Find out more on gumroadcom slash investing in RegenEgg. That is gumroadcom slash investing in RegenEgg, or find the link below. Welcome to another episode today with the director of agronomy of biomakers decoding soil biology and actionable soil intelligence for better agronomic decisions.
Speaker 2:Welcome, jacob thank you very much. I appreciate having me.
Speaker 1:And this is a second interview with Biomakers. I will definitely link below the interview if you haven't listened to the conversation with the founder and CEO, Adrian, which we did two and a half years ago. This is now October 2024. So in the life of a startup scale-up, a lot of things happen in that time, which we'll get to as well. First of all, you're still there, which is great. That's not to be underestimated in these interesting times, let's say, in fundraising and in general in the world at the moment. But I want to start with a personal question. We always love to ask is how come you spend most of your awake hours? Why soil? Why soil biology? What led you to it? Were you born under a microscope or in a lab or on a farm? Like what? What was the journey towards this, this spot? Oh yeah that's that's.
Speaker 2:That's a great question. Um, I think, like most people trying to get involved in um, in in science, um, we want to change the world, we want, we want to make the world a better place and as we start to go through education and career, we kind of get pushed into places where it's like you're able to change a smaller piece of the world and smaller and smaller, until eventually you end up in a place that's so small that you don't even know if you're doing that. Well, soils, soils doesn't do that, um, which is which is why you know I I love soils. One reason is because it um soils is basically the answer to most of our global problems today. If you look at the three Rio Conventions that the UN has put out, one is to combat desertification, which directly is basically saying we need to have healthier soils, so soils that can retain water, soils that in a drought, you know, can have that moisture that is still within the soils. So the answer to combating desertification is the soil.
Speaker 1:Basically, the answer is soil.
Speaker 2:whatever the question was, Right, so it's for desertification. So the other two Rio conventions are biodiversity More than half of the world's biodiversity are in the soils, and so soils is the answer to the convention on biological diversity. And then the last one is climate change. Soils contain more carbon than any other terrestrial system, contain more carbon than any other terrestrial system, so the atmosphere and trees combined. Soils have more carbon and are able to then soak up more carbon if we use them properly. And so the IPCC just the end of I guess it was the end of 2022, no 2023, put out their last report that said if we manage soils, that's kind of the lowest hanging fruit. That's, the easiest way to mitigate carbon change is by management of soils. And so every single one of those, the answer is soil, or at least an answer is soils.
Speaker 1:And which one of those was your entry point? For me, it was climate, carbon and discovering or stumbling upon that connection about 14 years ago. I never saw those words in the same sentence, like soil and carbon, and of course I was very interested in climate change at the time. But what was the entry point? I mean, we've had people, of course, on the health side, inequalities, smaller farmers, many different directions, many different angles and starting points. What was it for you?
Speaker 2:For me, it was biodiversity. So I had a microbiology class it was probably my second year of first or second year of college where the the professor had us do kind of a an actual kind of live activity I don't know how to explain it where where he would give us a topic, he would say here's the topic and you have to take a stand, literally on whether you agree with it or disagree with it. And so he would read the topic and then you would go to one side of the room versus the other side of the room and then he would take one person from one side and just ask okay, why do you support this or why do you oppose this position? And the position was something about evolution. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it struck me that a lot of times when we think about the problems, we think about it from a human perspective, and it really opened up my mind to think about there's a lot of stuff out there that we don't know about.
Speaker 2:The soils at that point was kind of what struck me is there is a lot of life in soil that we don't understand, that we don't know what's going on. That, it turns out, is doing a lot of really important. You know. Important function globally, but it can also be very local as well, and so I became fascinated with it. I was already fascinated with microbiology, but most of my microbiology classes were basically how, how do we kill bacteria, you know?
Speaker 2:so it's like talking about antibiotics and talking about the immune system, and talking about anti-biology right and and so I was kind of like well, you know there's, there's all this stuff out there.
Speaker 1:You know 99.9 of it is actually good, beneficial, doing other stuff, and we spend all of our time trying to figure out how to kill them but that's a big shift, that's a mindset shift in a sense recognizing I think the same with insects as well that most of it is beneficial and we spend, let's say, 90 of our energy on trying to kill, or probably more like how? But that's quite a a click or a shift to make like okay, how do we actually like asking the question, what would happen if we support the good guys and girls quote, I'm doing air quotes here would they take care of the bad ones and would that be a balance or not? But it's a completely different mindset of okay, how do we kill the bad ones? Like, kill, kill, kill, which I mean until we understood more biology. I'm not saying it's the right approach, but it worked for a while.
Speaker 1:But how did that shift? Like was it? Did that come natural to you? Or like the fact that you say 99 are actually beneficial is quite a um, quite a mindset shift yeah, and and or an insight I mean to.
Speaker 2:To. To be fair, this was, you know, a lot of the students that were going through this were going for that medical you know to when, when they were looking at microbiology, they were thinking, okay, this is what's going to launch me into my medical career, or this is going to benefit me as I and so, yeah, of course, you need to talk about, you know, the immunity side and the antibiotics and things like that, the antibiotics and things like that. But for me, I, I, I didn't, I wasn't interested in going into medicine, and so it was almost kind of shining I don't know exactly how to put it, but it was almost like by by shining such a harsh light on that aspect, the what they weren't talking about became more interesting of saying you know, I realized that there's all of this out there. Why aren't we talking about this? And you know what's? You know, is it because we don't really know what's going on? Is it because we don't want to talk about it? Is it because they don't think it's interesting? You know what? Why aren't we talking more about all of the good guys that are out there?
Speaker 2:And granted, that was a while ago, and so since then there's been a lot more that we talk about now and we're learning more and more about how soil biodiversity really does function and it really does regulate.
Speaker 2:So many benefits and, and, you know, coming coming back full circle. I'm I'm currently working on on a paper with a group of people where we're we're really kind of going back to what you said. We're really showing that if we focus on the good and and really provide, you know, build up healthy soils, then it comes back around and it builds up human health, and so it. It it's kind of an end run around all of the antibiotics and the immunity to say that, you know, the good guys are actually benefiting us from a human health perspective, if, if we can allow them and if we can, if we can, you know, do practices that promote and sustain those the good guys, can you elaborate a bit more on I mean, we've done two full series on on, let's say, the nutrient density quality, like how does healthy soil connect to healthy produce, healthy gut systems and healthy people and, of course, healthy ecosystems?
Speaker 1:and, and what's your angle here? Like, what are you? Are you doing specific crops? Like how, how does soil biology help, let's say our, our gut biology and does does us? Like, what's your angle here? Because there's a lot of talk, there's's less research. There is a lot, but it seems like it starts to be bubbling now, more than 10 years ago, or even 100, when the original, let's say, organic people started. What's your angle?
Speaker 2:Well, so the angle that we're really taking is that we can't find a way that it doesn't help. So if, like you mentioned, if we look at nutrient density, there have been a lot of papers come out recently that show that the biodiversity, the health of the soil plays a bigger role in the nutrient density and really the nutrient quality of crops than synthetic fertilizers. So you know, you can better manipulate the quality of the nutrients in food by taking care of the microbiome than by adding, you know specifically, and say, okay, well, you know, if I want more nitrogen in this, you know, or more protein, I need to put more nitrogen on my fields. That doesn't work as well as just building up the microbiome. So from a nutrient density perspective, from a plant growth, so we know that plant, that microbes are benefiting the growth and the yield of plants. So anywhere from something that is that specific, as we start to move away to look at other issues, as we start to look at the increase of asthma, the increase of kind of allergy reactions, we find that there's a lot of microbes in soil.
Speaker 2:There are these hygiene hypotheses, some biodiversity hypotheses, that basically say if we get inoculated early with a lot of the bacteria and the fungi that are in soils.
Speaker 2:That builds up our you know immune system.
Speaker 2:That I probably should have paid more attention to back in my microbiology class, paid more attention to back in my microbiology class.
Speaker 2:But then it it kind of inoculates us so that that our alert, our immune system and our allergies don't flare up.
Speaker 2:And so there there are a lot of studies that really show that, um, that as we kind of create a more sterile environment in, you know, as we grow up in urban and more sterile kind of away from the soils, those allergies and those kind of so allergies and non-communicable diseases as well as communicable diseases, we see that you know there are papers that are showing that. You know, like the, you know pandemics, so a lot of the, the viruses and the problems can, can be reservoirs in the soil. So if you've got an unhealthy soil system, you are putting, you know, animal or human waste that has pathogens, it can reside in the soil and it can kind of basically spread, and so if we're not taking care of the soils, it's a breeding ground for so so it's not a question of of how do they, it's more a question of we can't find a way that they don't and, and so your paper and with, with the other authors obviously not yours, yours, but what?
Speaker 1:what's the focus on it? Like? How is it adding to? Like, what are you adding to this debate or to this, this research, to what's not there yet?
Speaker 2:So, the thing.
Speaker 2:So there's a there's a big, a big push for this, this idea of one health, and the the this one health idea is basically saying that human health, animal health and environmental health are all tied together.
Speaker 2:And so we need to look at it from a holistic perspective rather than just saying we're going to focus on human health and as we focus on human health, you know we'll solve.
Speaker 2:Because it's like, since it's all connected, we have to focus on the whole big picture. And the thing that we're trying to say with this is we're trying to say, well, soils are the foundation for that, and so in this idea of One Health, the first starting point should be the soils. So it should be that soil biodiversity, it should be making soils healthier as far as kind of that biodiversity. And then, you know, once soils are healthy, then everything else just kind of starts to fall in place a little bit more. And so we're basically kind of making that tie to all of these topics in kind of One Health, which is antimicrobial resistance, it's communicable and non communicable diseases, it's water hygiene and sanitation. So all of these things we're basically saying here's how soils you know how, if we focus on soils, we solve a big problem in that different area. So we go through each one of those to say the answer is soil.
Speaker 1:And when are you planning to have it out, like what's the timeline to have it published?
Speaker 2:We're hoping to get it out sometime early next year, and so we're. It's a process and so it will take a little bit, but so far we've got a lot of success, kind of got a lot of people interested that are in kind of the One Health area that are reading this and saying you know this is, you know this is actually sound, it's, it makes some sense very interesting and then leading back to biomakers, like you've.
Speaker 1:You're back at biomakers now. We'll get into that. But how did you first join? Uh, when did you join, and how is the space like at that time? Uh, because it also feels it's, it's starting to speed up quite significantly. Let's say the attention at least for soil biology or even those two words together like living soils is, is not a thing that we should underestimate, like how much the the global narrative has has shifted there, that there's something there to look at. But anyway, when you joined Biomakers, what was the state at that point?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. When I first joined Biomakers so Biomakers and there are a couple of other companies noticed that there was a big gap. So there are a lot of companies that have been you know manufacturing companies, you know some of these big ag companies that are starting to look at the soil microbiome and starting to say, yeah, if we can find ways to take care of the biology of the soils, then that will benefit farmers' crops. And so looking for products, looking for inoculants, looking for different ways, but then the problem is that there's not really a way to check that and so there are a lot of products that in all, I, I, I don't know that there are bad players out there.
Speaker 1:So I think that that in a greenhouse, in a controlled setting, they say, yeah, this works great, but taking it then out to the field, all of a sudden it doesn't work anymore, or maybe it does work in, which is dangerous because you promise things, and, and then what the danger is is people say, oh, I use this biological instead of this chemical, whatever, and and it didn't work. So all the biological, all the biologicals don't work, and that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater I think is the is the term. But anyway, that's dangerous because we need to shift away from chemical inputs for all the reasons you just mentioned mainly health of everything, plus costs, plus fossil fuels that are involved in that, plus the dependency, et cetera, et cetera. But then if you have this whole suite and I think people underestimate how many biologicals there are how are you going to choose and how are you even going to tell as a company? I think part of your business model is is like which ones work where?
Speaker 1:Because one of the great benefits and great complexities of biologicals are they don't work everywhere. They work in very specific contexts because they are alive and they need certain soil, like. So you and others looked at that space and said, okay, we need to be able to tell growers and companies that make these biologicals that are not in there. I mean, for sure there's some bad actors, but they're not in there to trick, to sell snake oil. But they need to be, they need to have ways of saying OK, this works in these contexts and it doesn't work here. So don't buy us because you're going to be disappointed, right.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, and you know, to give them ideas of maybe also why why doesn't it work here? And since it doesn't work here, can we find, you know? So I did spend some time at one of those biological companies and it was. It was a noble endeavor and we were really trying to find good products that would help, you know, be sustainable and help help increase yields. And so one of the issues was, as you said, we know our product doesn't work everywhere. So it's like, well, can we find a product that we, you know, if we can find out why it doesn't work in these places, maybe we can find either something that does work or else we can start to try to figure out how do we make it so that now our product actually can work there. For example, if it's something to do with salinity, can we try to make it so that our product is more tolerant to high salt conditions or something like that, so that we can then have a target to say we know why it doesn't work and if we fix that, then we can have it work in more places. But up until then, then it was like we would look at it, we would say it does work a lot of the time and so we're just going to sell it everywhere and understand that it won't work sometimes for some of those, some of those farmers that that trust us, that buy the product and it doesn't work. And we know that's gonna happen and we just kind of accept that risk.
Speaker 2:And I don't think we need to accept that risk anymore. And that's what biomakers kind of really saw is that we should be able to have that information. We should be able to know enough about the biology to say you know how does this product work in the field? And then, if we tested enough places, we can now start to say we know where it does and doesn't work. And then we can kind of bring those two sides together the manufacturer and the grower, to say we know where this product works as far as what biology and what soil systems it benefits, and we know your soil system, and so we can kind of put those together and say will this biology work in your field? And we can kind of give them a yeah, we're confident that will, or it probably won't and has that shifted a lot?
Speaker 1:I mean partly. I think there's a question here, always from the investor side, like why now has there been technology changes, cost reductions to do these things easily in field, because if it costs 10,000 euros per sample, that's just not going to happen. Or $10,000. Like since you joined I don't know exactly when you joined Biomaker for the first time. Now you joined it again, but how has been that journey in terms of what is possible compared to what was not possible or maybe was less possible a couple of years ago?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been an exciting journey because, you know, when we first started, it's almost like we were creating the space, and so, you know, there was a lot of trial and error. There was a lot of you know, okay, you know we're approaching this the wrong direction, and so there were some growing pains that we had, and we had some great growers and great manufacturers that kind of saw the potential and stuck with us and said, okay, we understand that this is going to take some time to get there, but we are getting to there now where this really is an extremely valuable place. So from I think the whole agricultural community knows that we need to move towards more sustainable options. So growers are looking at this and they're saying, you know, I, I know that that some of the practices that we do are killing my soils, and so you know, I can.
Speaker 1:Has that changed a lot like in the last years, or has it been that was there as well 10 years ago, let's say, but it just we didn't have the tools or many of the tools yet to act. Or has it been a consciousness change as well among many of the growers you talked to? So I I think.
Speaker 2:I think that there were some very forward-looking growers that noticed, of course, early on, um, and, but I think that it's it's growing now. I, I think it's not only the growers, I think the the whole agriculture community. If you look at every single one of the big, you know giant, fertilizer distribution and and manufacturing companies, every single one of them are are having a biological, you know area that they're starting to get into. Now I think we all see that, that you know the, the, that there are pesticides, um synthetic fertilizers that are causing problems, um, and I think they, and I think governments, I think I, I don't, I don't think it's just growers, I think it's everybody realizes this is coming and we're starting to kind of try to make an alternative for that, and I think the alternative, one alternative, is biologicals, and I think it's a very attractive alternative. I think it's a very attractive alternative and so I think that more and more growers, manufacturers, are starting to see that, and so, yes, I think there are more that are starting to see this, to see that this is the way to go, but not only to see that it's the way to go, but to see that it's actually better.
Speaker 2:So it's been kind of a thought that, okay, if I move away from my conventional agriculture, then what's going to be my drop in yield? How is that going to hurt me? If I go to more environmental friendly agricultural practices, what's going to be my hit? How much money am I going to lose? And while there is a little bit of a drag as you shift away, it turns out that you can actually get better yields you can actually have since you're not paying so much for fertilizers, for other things that you're actually getting a better return on your investment.
Speaker 1:Profitability is important and something we hardly discuss.
Speaker 2:Exactly. The other thing is, as you continue with these non-sustainable practices, your yield goes down and down and down and down and keeps going down, um, and so at some point you've got to see that, that point where it's like, okay, if I would have shifted over, you know, five, ten years ago, then my profits, my yields, everything would have been higher. And so it's kind of seeing, seeing that writing on the wall as well, to say I need to make this shift, um, not just to be environmentally responsible, but to be able to have that yield that I need.
Speaker 1:So to be in business showing not destroying my business decision, and I think there is.
Speaker 1:of course this is super context specific, but the narrative of every transition will cost you X yield or there's always a drop and there's always. I think it really depends. We've seen examples where that's not the case. Let's say John Kemp has been very vocal about it If you manage it well, nobody says drop to zero artificial chemical inputs. You can if you have the budget, the money and you have, let's say, the buffer to do it. Cold turkey is an approach, let's say. But there are managed transitions where you manage the soil, biology and the plant health really really well, you monitor it really well, you see what it needs in that transition and your goal is to go to zero or very close to zero and there you see dramatic reductions in costs, which actually makes the transition very doable, again, in specific crop, specific circumstances.
Speaker 1:But I think it's important here to put out the narrative of always a yield drop and always it's just not the case. It doesn't have to be uh, with good advice, with good biologicals that work in your uh, good inputs that work in your um, in your context, because nobody's saying uh, like, go call turkey and don't get any other biological inputs, of course, your, your, your plants and soil will suffer, right, because they're, they're used to a certain kind of in and it's, it's, it's a transition phase, um, so I but it's just, I think it's, it's, it's one of those narratives that's very strong, um, and, and not necessarily always the case, that's it, that's yeah, that that's true, that is correct and so on.
Speaker 1:This biological side has that um, because I see, like the case studies on the website as well and and there there's so much out there now, are they not? Not I would say flocking to you, but really um, reaching out to you and maybe other some other colleagues in the space that are like trying to, okay, where, where does my input, my biologicals, work and where not? And can we prove our effectiveness? And can we, because everybody's always asking, okay, show me the proof. Um, I know these chemicals work to a certain extent, so why should I take the risk with with something that's alive and a bit more tricky to apply in certain ways, because it's many cases. It's alive and needs to stay alive, otherwise you lose that like. Has that attention and and that sector um being being able to find you, uh, over the last years, and has that shifted or has that like led to a lot of business?
Speaker 2:hopefully, because otherwise you, you can't stay in business right, yeah, so so this is, this has been a very gradual shift, um, so on one hand, you know, it's only been recently that we've we've really kind of been able to put all of this together, because, on one hand, we've got manufacturers that are testing their products and they need to be tested in, you know, in a specific way, and so it's not like they can just say, okay, here's my data, tell me if my product is going to work everywhere, can just say, okay, here's my data, tell me if my product's going to work everywhere. And so, first of all, the questions that they started asking when they started working with us is just they wanted to say does our product work in the field the way we think it should work? So if we've got a product that we say is a biostimulant, are we actually seeing it work as a biostimulant out in the field like we think it should? And so that was the only question they were asking. So they were doing that very specific question and so once that one product had enough different locations where we could say we've had a lot of different soil types and we're able to see how that one product interacts with the biology of a lot of different systems. We can then use AI to kind of predict how it's going to work in other conditions. And so it's only been recently that we've really been able to get enough products, enough locations, enough different biologies that we're able to start to kind of put that picture together, and it's still at a fairly high level resolution. But we've shown that we can do that.
Speaker 2:And then on the other side in the past when we've done with growers it's mostly been it's almost like a traditional soil nutrient test they just they just want to get the report and say, yeah, you know, the problem right now is you've got a lot of nitrogen in your field but it's all locked up, and so if you can find a way to unlock nitrogen in your field, then you don't have to put as much nitrogen fertilizer on. You can just find something that does that. But unfortunately we didn't have that answer. It was great to know that. Um, then they could sit down and say, okay, what's something that that might work to unlock nitrogen I could add, maybe add more compost, maybe I could find a biological product, maybe I could uh, so you could tell them look that, you have the nitrogen it's in your soil.
Speaker 1:But we don't really know how to unlock. We don't know the key to this lock specifically. We didn't.
Speaker 2:Right, we didn't, we would be able to say your nitrogen is locked up and find something that can release that. And because you know we could recommend stuff, we could say, well, here are some practices that in the past have been able to do that. But in your specific case we can't really tell you because, again, biology works in some places in it. But now we've gotten to the point where we've tested enough of those and we've. So we've basically said, hey, we tested this product in a biology that looks very much like yours and we found that it works. So now we can actually kind of draw that connection to say you know, here's a type of of a product that we would actually recommend that you can put on. So it's, it's no longer that we're no longer kind of leaving them out in the it, you know, just saying this is your problem, you know, go figure out how to fix it.
Speaker 1:now we're able to say so they send in a soil sample or how does that work in practice, like you know, just saying this is your problem, you know, go figure out how to fix it. Now we're able to say so they send in a soil sample, or how does that work in practice? Like a farmer knocks on your door and says I would love to take some steps in the biology side of things.
Speaker 2:What happens next? So yeah, so with the most recent version, we're able to say you give us shape files of your farm, We'll run it through. Our algorithm that looks at you know, Sorry, what kind of file, Shape file. So it basically just tells us that this is the field, the field boundaries, the coordinates of my field. And then we're able to go look at past satellite imagery, past you know weather data, and we're able to basically kind of build a map of the different biological zones based on all of those climate parameters.
Speaker 1:Without having to stick something into soil and send it somewhere.
Speaker 2:Right, this is all, before they've even collected a sample, and then we're able to tell them okay, based on all of this information, because a lot of the biology we can tell from remote sensing. As far as like vegetative, like you know how green were your crops last year at this?
Speaker 1:time.
Speaker 2:And so we're able to say, okay, here's an area where they weren't very green, here they were great. And so we've. We've identified two different areas that could potentially have different biology. So then we're able to send them back and say go collect samples from these coordinates and send us those samples, and then we'll basically be able to create a map of kind of the biology, the map of what's going on, just like we have nutrient maps that say, oh, your nitrogen is low over here, you're good over here, and so this is really where you need to focus certain efforts. So we're able to do that from the biology perspective.
Speaker 2:And so we would basically tell them send them, go collect samples from these locations. We would send them a kit to actually collect the sample, and so all they would do is they would then just say, okay, I need to go out to these coordinates, I need to stick a soil sample in the tube that they sent me, put it in the box that they sent and ship it back to them in that same box and ship it back to him in that same box. And you know, in three to five weeks I will get a report on. This is what's happening in your field and you know we've got kind of an online portal where you can actually pull up your field and have those you know heat maps of. You know this is where your nitrogen is, your nitrogen pathways are high and this is where they're low, and and kind of show them what's going on biologically as well as and that's really focused on the farmer, farmers paying for that, and like that's the the farmer client side.
Speaker 1:And then do you like in certain regions I'm imagining not everywhere you're saying okay, actually, um, we could suggest you xyz so, yeah, at this point we're getting to where we can actually predict.
Speaker 2:so we've done enough sampling of or enough enough trials of products in different locations that we can. We can say, okay, this, this farmer's field that we've never tested before, has very similar biology to where we've actually tried this product. Or, you know, we've tried it in enough places and we find that it works 80% of the time and it's because of you know, these factors that it's actually working and those factors match with this farmer's field. And so we can kind of give you a recommendation of saying you know, we're fairly confident that this product will benefit you somehow in your field.
Speaker 1:And that's gold for the farmer and gold for the producer.
Speaker 2:Obviously because it we're not really promoting the idea of biology and soils, and so farmers are trying to get into that. They're trying to figure out how to unlock the biology of their field. Manufacturers are doing that. They're trying to say what kind of biological products can increase yield, can improve plant growth. But they need some kind of almost like a similar language that they can talk, that they can actually talk to one another to say you know, hey, here's something that works that goes beyond.
Speaker 1:just trust me, you know which is kind of, yeah, that's not enough to risk fields and harvests and seasons, and then are like the companies pay, like how do you make sure you're independent enough to not be able to give advice? But of course, one of the issues in the current, let's say, conventional extractive system is that a lot of the advice comes from salespeople or representatives of the chemical input companies which, with all their good intent, are trying to sell more chemical inputs. That's not necessarily your position, obviously, but you are in the middle and so how do you manage that tension or that dance?
Speaker 2:So right now, basically, if a farmer is paying for it, if the farmer says I want to see the biology of my field and I'm going to go to biomakers, then what we do is we say, okay, we've got types of products.
Speaker 2:So we don't say you know use, you know this product, you know specifically, we're not, we're not.
Speaker 2:But we'll say okay if you, if you have something that has, you know, a bacillus hemiloliquifacients, you know product, you know products that have this, you know, this mode of action or this specific characteristic tend to work well in your field. And then then basically, that's kind of saying okay, so so it's not a specific brand, it's not a specific you know, it's saying this product, something that does this and give you some ideas, so that we're not really kind of saying you know, so that's how we can interact with the grower. On the other hand, there are some, you know again, I think that there are some good players out there that are really trying to do the good thing. Again, I think that there are some good players out there that are really trying to do the good thing, and so the way that a retailer would be able to do this is that they could use the same thing. They could actually put out some trials of their products and say you know, where do my products, my biological products, actually work?
Speaker 1:And you could easily find out the farmers as well, like in case, if they want to participate, like, look, we have a new product to try, we think it might work in your. You don't pay because it's a trial, or you pay with the data or et cetera. We might get paid. I don't know how it works, but we think it might work in your, but it's new. So do you want to participate? You can you run these trials?
Speaker 2:basically for for these right, or even even if you're you're a you know one of these retailers that's kind of all you know a crop advisor, you could, you could be that middle person you could say to the farmer you know, as part of this overall you know package that I'm giving you, let me collect samples from your field.
Speaker 2:You know, I'll look at the biology, I'll look at these recommendations, and then I'll be able to go through and say, okay, what are some of the options that I trust, what are some of the names that I trust that have these products, and so then they can be the one that kind of unlocks the biology for the field, using these tools, to say, okay, you know, I've tested your biology and I found that, you know, based on this, there's, there's this recommendation that would actually work. So that's another level that works. From a manufacturer level, it could be something similar, because a lot of I mean I think that most, if not all, corn seed now goes out with a biological on it, even though the farmers don't know that they're often buying a biological product. And so from that perspective, you know, we could have the seed companies that are selling the biologicals anyway actually look at it and say well, you know where is that actually working, where is that actually providing a benefit?
Speaker 1:for the growers, which is interesting, that it definitely that it is on all or almost all corn, which means the price of doing that it must be extremely low because otherwise you wouldn't be doing it. If there's no, then research after to look into the effectiveness.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and it's based on by volume. They're able to do that they're able to, and the thing is that they know that it works well enough to say it's worth the risk of putting it everywhere and maybe not having it work everywhere.
Speaker 1:Fascinating and you stepped out of Biome Makers for a stint at the FAO. Why was that and what happened there? What did you attempt or what did you do there?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I had an opportunity to go and work with the FAO for about a year and a half before and basically what happened was that the last convention of parties, cop in Montreal, the biodiversity COP, the countries basically came together and, sure that we're losing soil biodiversity, but we've never really had kind of a way to measure that loss. You know, when we talk about extinction of species and things like that, that's looking at things that we can see, that the things that people are interested in, that the people are actually monitoring and observing and are seeing, hey, this is in decline. And the question is well, what about all the important things that we haven't really been looking at? And so the idea was first of all, we need to make sure that we don't lose important function of the soils, based on what we discussed earlier on how important those functions are, you know, globally for all of our big problems.
Speaker 2:So they basically said first of all, we need to protect soils, and so we need to know how to do that. We need to know what are the things that we can do to protect soils, to make it so that there's, you know, we're still using them. We can't just say, okay, all farming has to stop so that soil biodiversity can recover. That's just not a viable option, and so how can we be smart about this? And then the other question is how do we monitor this everywhere? How do we look and see? Are we actually losing soil biodiversity? No-transcript.
Speaker 1:And then you came back. Why that and why? Back to a company, obviously very different dynamics, atmosphere etc, etc. Compared to a large un institution and what.
Speaker 2:what triggered that? Um, yeah, it was. It was a phenomenal opportunity, um, a great, you know, and I, I, I loved it. Um, we, we loved being there. Part of it was that just for family reasons. So, while, because it was in at FAO headquarters where, yeah, and so part of my family loved it, part of the family was really struggling, and so we kind of went with, you know, we kind of said, okay, you know, we had our you know, a chance to really take a stab at this. We, in that time, I was able to get basically a plan approved of this is how we should be measuring soil biodiversity, this is how we should implement it and kind of get that through the you know different panels and different, and so it was approved and so at that time it was kind of like, you know, in order, for kind of personal family reasons, it's it's time for us to.
Speaker 1:it was a good moment to to go back, to head back to the us, yeah and then joining again like what, what, how much has shifted in that year and like the two years. Basically, you work on like has the space moved a lot? Coming back to biomakers, has it? I mean you've been in the space of corporate from a different angle and what has changed?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, so, so one of the biggest changes. So this, the whole idea of of I. I guess it's almost like we're imitating what happens with fertilizer companies, where a farmer goes out, collects a sample and says this is my level of nitrogen. I know I need to be at this level of nitrogen in order to have the best yield, best return for my investment on nitrogen fertilizer. So I know I need to apply this much fertilizer over my fields in order to get there, and so it's a numbers game. They know what's going on.
Speaker 2:We're getting to that point in biologicals now. Before we couldn't quite bring those two together, and we're now at a point where we actually can do that, and so it's exciting to be able to see that we're getting to the point. And it's not just, I guess I want to point out, it's not just, like you know, the biological inputs that we're looking at. We're looking at practices as well. So we're able to say you know what kind of practices.
Speaker 2:So if you go to a reduced till or no till, if you shift to this other practice, you know how is that going to benefit, and one of the things that we can look at actually is carbon. So you know, we talked about yield before and about how you don't have to have that yield drag. And one of the issues with a lot of the carbon marketing and kind of those carbon offset type of companies is that you initiate a practice. So the way that we measure carbon we can't really measure it for about three to five years. So you start a practice and basically three to five years later you can actually start to see kind of that needle on carbon moving within the soil. So there are things that are happening in the soil that you're pushing it in the right direction, but we don't see results for about three to five years. There's a lag.
Speaker 2:there's a lag in my exact, if you're doing it right, um, and that's that's kind of always been the assumption, that that you're doing it right, and so that's kind of what but you could be doing it wrong and nothing is right.
Speaker 2:That's also exactly, and that's, or or that it's not moving as quickly as it could be, and that that's what.
Speaker 2:That's what a lot of the these, these carbon companies, are doing now is.
Speaker 2:They're kind of they're they're playing in that middle where they're kind of almost like ensuring that that you know whatever practices you're you're putting in, and so they're kind of paying upfront to say we're going to help you do this, but on the end, based on how much carbon comes out, we're going to that's, but on the end, based on how much carbon comes out, that's kind of where we get our money, and so there's a lot of risk there as well. There's a gamble there, yeah, and it's not only the carbon companies, it's these large corporations that are trying to meet these sustainability goals, these carbon neutrality goals, that are basically saying, right now, a lot of them have goals of, you know, by 2030, we'll be at this percent. And if they're just implementing practices right now, there's, you know, if it takes five years before they get those data back, they don't have a lot of opportunity to say, okay, we're going to adjust what we're doing, Because you know, if they do it now, they're not going to have those data until almost 2030.
Speaker 1:So if they're doing it wrong, and you're saying, with the right biology monitoring, let's say, you can have strong indications of those carbon, you can follow the carbon already, before it shows up. Let's say, or you can see the circumstances needed to store or you can adjust as well to make it go faster before it starts showing up on your carbon measurements in two, three years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. So it's almost real-time adjustment to be able to say you know, we're on the best trajectory to get there. So we're not measuring the carbon itself, but we're measuring all those processes, all those those pathway shifts that are happening in the soil, you know, in order to get to that increase in carbon. So it's, you know, there's so much more. It's basically looking at all the biology in soils, and so it's not just biological inputs and growers, it could be, you know, the carbon that's being stored in soils. You know there's so many other places where this is applicable. And so all of these become more exciting as we start to see.
Speaker 2:You know how we can interact with, kind of kind of some of these, these, these groups that are really that really are going back to the beginning, that really are trying to change the world. They're, they're they're putting forth good faith effort to say you know, you know we really do want to be carbon neutral and not just have it kind of a greenwashing type of, yeah, say, we're planting trees where, you know, so we're taking those credit, but they're actually following up, they're actually making sure that they are being good stewards of the land and saying you know, we want healthy soils. We want to be able to say that we are contributing to solving these problems.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, do you have already a few of these carbon players, let's say connected to you, working with you to figure out? Okay, we've made those promises, we sold some of these credits. Actually, Are we going to collect? Hopefully, but we're sort of in the dark. Over the next two to three years, how do we bring a bit of light into, into the room?
Speaker 2:we have a few that that are that are looking into this, so that that are working with us, that are very interested in um, in in what we're able to do, um, and so they're very excited about it. Um, we've had some initial meetings. So, for the carbon players, we've also have big kind of multinational companies that have, and so these are the ones that have farms all over the world and they're saying, yeah, tell us, you know, look at this and tell us how we can better you know what practices we can do to manage our field. Because a lot of times right now it's kind of a blanket of saying, okay, we're going to do one management practice in all of these fields and, you know, hope for the best where it should really be like, well, in this region, you know, the management practice should be, you know, different than this region over here, because you've got different soils, you've got different climate and so we're able to kind of do much more kind of fine scale indication of what's going on and where, different practices.
Speaker 1:And so for a large, you know food corporation to say, you know, I'm basically managing my supply chain and making it so it's, it's sustainable, um, so that provides some benefit for for some of these large food companies and what would be your of course, without giving investment advice, but your message to, like the financial world, let's say, we do this in a theater, in front of an audience of of investors that are interested in food and ag, interested, interested in soil, obviously. What would be your message of the state, let's say, of soil biology at the moment, and what should be one thing that they remember from an evening? Of course, we have interesting pictures behind. They got excited, but we also know people forget. What should they remember the next day if they're opening their laptop or at their desk, and something they hopefully do in the world of soil biology, what would you like, what seed would you like to plant in their minds?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the answer is that it doesn't need to be as unknown as we think it is, and so you know. For, for the manufacturers that are putting out products out there that say you know, put this everywhere, just trust us, they don't have to say that anymore. Or or the farmer that says you know, I don't, I don't really know what biological product is going to work, and so I'll just, I'll just, you know, pull something off the shelf and I'll try this one, give it a shot and see what it does.
Speaker 1:And hope for the best.
Speaker 2:Hope for the best. Or with carbon to say well, we think that this is going to be the best, and so we'll see in five years if this is.
Speaker 1:So all of those You're saying, those uncertainties are not necessary anymore? They're not necessary anymore. Which not so long ago was necessary like this, is not. This is a relatively new phenomenon that we can say we, we start to, in many places, understand this complexity in soil, or at least understand directions, like 80 percent of the time. Like you said, this this probably works not guaranteed, but we have a good.
Speaker 2:We will take a battle right, right, and and I mean the more we do this, the better we get, of course, and so you know, we've, we've come a long way in you know these. So. So biomakers is almost 10 years old now and we have, I mean we have come this wasn't the case 10 years ago.
Speaker 1:That's, that's safe. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So. So what we can do now versus what we could do then is just phenomenal. A lot of that uncertainty is is way, way, way lower. And at least now there isn't a black box anymore where it was just kind of like saying okay, you know, we make a decision and we hope for the best. We've kind of removed that black box, opened the black box to show you what's going on inside, so at least you're making more informed decisions. Now, we're not going to be perfect. We're not perfect. I don't think we'll ever get there.
Speaker 1:What are pieces where we miss still? What are like pockets of, okay, that kind of? Is it geographies? Is it more certain biology mechanisms or, in the story, like what are? Where does the black box still exist?
Speaker 2:So I think the black box still exists, is just in application. So in theory, we've got it. We've been able to put all of this together. So you know, we're able to look at the. You know, for example, what practices actually do end up building up soil health. We're able to say, okay, you know, we've seen this happen.
Speaker 2:But basically we need to see that happen in a lot of places in order to say, oh, look, here's a place where it doesn't quite work.
Speaker 2:But instead of in the past where we would say, okay, we're just going to accept that risk and say, okay, there are places where it doesn't work and we're just going to have to say, on the whole, this is a positive, we're going to say, no, we want to see why it doesn't work there and what does work there instead and be able to provide recommendations for that. And so that's kind of the just having enough use cases in enough geography, enough crop types, enough different practices to be able to fully vet all of this. And so we're able to look in the black box, and so we're able to look in the black box. Now we just need to be able to say, okay, let's actually run some application through that. You know those issues, whether it's you know a certain product, a certain field type, whatever it is, and we'll be able to get the answer and then we can use that moving forward as kind of a better resolution.
Speaker 1:It's now about, yeah, getting we have a picture and it's getting the resolution more granular at even a lower field level or different geographies, other soil types, et cetera Exactly, and which is an infinitely easier one. Of course, you never get to a perfect, but it's the fact that we have that picture already changes the game fundamentally and flipping the question what would you do if you'd be in charge of a large investment portfolio, like we usually say? Let's say you had to put a billion dollars to work? Not looking for dollar amounts, but I'm looking for what would you focus on? What would be main buckets of your interest and of impact? Basically where you would put money to work with the intent that it comes back after a long period, but at some point it would be nice if it comes back.
Speaker 2:In my opinion and I obviously am not an investor or anything but the whole purpose behind investing is to really go into something that others perceive as very risky, when you have minimized that risk.
Speaker 1:That sounds pretty much like investing.
Speaker 2:So basically, it's where you're kind of saying, okay, a lot of people think that this is scary, but I know something that they don't where know where I've minimized that risk and I know what's going on, I know how this is going to play out and so, in a way, that's what we're doing with the soil biology and so, you know, companies that are working with us are no longer saying you know, okay, there's this, this threat of kind of greenwashing labeled as greenwasher, because you know, we have that three to five years where we don't know what's going on, where at the end of this, people might say, aha, so you were just doing stuff.
Speaker 2:You know, doing these practices without really monitoring and seeing how they worked, and just kind of claiming those credits, and that you know that publicity. We can get rid of that and that's really what investment smart investment is about is about reducing the risk of those investments. And that's what I see Biomakers is doing is, as you move forward into this, we are reducing that unknown. Move forward into this, we are reducing that unknown. We're able to say, you know, for a manufacturer company to be able to say my product does work here and it doesn't work here. I'm going to focus on selling it where it does work rather than try to sell it everywhere. And have you know, maybe 20% of my customers be upset and start telling everybody else that my product doesn't work at all and they're very loud, usually the upset customers exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:So. So to be able to and maybe even to then go to those customers and say, hey, you know what? I know that our product isn't going to work here, so don't buy it. I mean that to me is, you know, in agriculture, where there hasn't been a lot of trust, to be able to do something like that and say I'm pretty sure our product isn't for you, is rather than saying I'm just going to sell this everywhere and see how much I can get and see what sticks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because there are alternatives. That's, I think, the the interesting thing as well. In a non-informational connected world, you were dependent on who came to your farm and sold you things uh, was nice to you as well, was trustworthy, showed up, gave you a good, maybe a good credit line for certain inputs in this world. It's still somehow like that. But at the same time, you can find many, many other options that might have to be handled differently because they're biologicals but at the same time might have way more interesting effects and you can Google your way out of quite a few things. So it's a different dynamic, but still, who's going to take that risk and who's going to risk a few fields even, which might be actually your whole profit margin of that year potentially? So the risks should definitely not be on the farmer but on the biologicals as well. The companies show us where it works and then by all means sell it. But yeah, don't spray and pray, because then we're just going to hurt the space quite a lot Exactly, and within I mean, we've touched upon a few, but we love to ask this question, like a few things where you think different.
Speaker 1:But we love to ask this question inspired by by john kemp. What do you believe to be true about regenerative agriculture that others don't like? Where? And the others here and I think are people in this space, I think in general, let's say people within the region space where? Where do you think different and where do you think a bit contrarian?
Speaker 2:That's a good question.
Speaker 1:I mean, we touched upon a few like that. We are in this less unknown space, et cetera. But I still love to ask you, because you might have had a different thought, because we always share these questions briefly, it's not that we, like people, always think that we just dump them on people, um, apart from the fact, if you listen to the podcast, you you know these are the standard ones, but we do share them in advance so, people, you can prepare um, but maybe you had a different thought when you you saw it yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't know if this is, I mean, this is really a different thought or just more adamant about this, but but I really think that that biology is the answer. Um, so I think right now, um, there's still a lot of people out there that say that you know, biology is important. They kind of give almost like a nod to say, yeah, you know, but biology is good, you know. Nod to say, yeah, you know, biology is good, you know. Or even say, yeah, we can get there eventually with biology, or biology can be tweaked, to give you that you know 10% or that 5%, but I really think that biology is the picture. I think if we, I think if we it's not just so.
Speaker 2:Going back to the One Health thing, to where, you know, a lot of times when you see One Health portrayed, it's almost like soils are considered, but it's kind of like an afterthought. It's like way out here to the side, where it's like, oh, yeah, and soils are important too, where it's like, no, no, no, soils are the foundation for all of this. It's not just like out here, and so I think that is my, I guess my way of looking at it is that soils and biodiversity and the biology come first. If you have an extremely healthy soil, then they're managing the nutrients that are available within that soil for the plant the best that they're able to do, better than we could do by adding fertilizers. Same with any kind of pesticides they're able to suppress pathogens, they're able to give you the healthiest crop, and so it's all about the biology. So biology should. Is the biology so, so biology should is the answer.
Speaker 2:Whatever your question, I think once we get biology first, then similar to kind of what we're arguing in one help.
Speaker 1:Then everything else is so much easier to just kind of fall into place if that foundation is there and as a final question, if you had a magic wand and you could change one thing overnight, so we take away your fund, but you do have magic power, which potentially way more powerful than a billion dollars, what would that be? What would be your no, like no. We've heard many different things here, from very practical subsidies away to global consciousness. I mean, you could take it anywhere you want, is my advice here. But if you had the magic power to change one thing overnight, what would it be?
Speaker 2:I think maybe it would be to kind of erase the past of biologicals. So there have been a lot of. We have found that the trust of a lot of growers, a lot of manufacturers, a lot of people have been basically broken. There is very little trust in biologicals and that's just because of that. You know what we've been speaking about. Biologicals work. One biological doesn't work everywhere, but biologicals can work anywhere if you get the right one. And so it's all about trying to find the right biological that's going to work in that field, that location in the biology that is currently there. So we've pretty much got that figured out. But there is so much mistrust around biologicals, there's so much hesitation to move forward with that, that it's hard to convince people otherwise, and rightly so, I think. A lot of people have been burned by biologicals. So if we could just remove all of that Not literally people.
Speaker 1:they don't burn. I mean it depends, they're not chemical. But I think that the trust piece it takes a second to lose that and a lifetime to build, and we have a whole generation of farmers that that is in an age group as well where risks are just not that smart to take. In a sense, if you're 55, 62 which is the average age of some places, 58, I think some how many harvests do you have left? How many risks do you want to take?
Speaker 1:You know you should have done this 10 years ago, but it was way less uh, research and the left. How many risks do you want to take? You know you should have done this 10 years ago, but it was way less research and the risk was way bigger. But are you going to risk the farm basically now with something you know you want to do and you see, but at the same time you're not in a position, because it's also your retirement and your pension, to do a lot of things? So there's a lot of yeah, there's a lot of resistance rightfully so to radical change, even though we can say a lot of things and can see a lot of things now and can predict many, many things that we couldn't until very recent. So I do understand, and you might've been burned in the past by something that absolutely didn't work and so, yeah, why take the, the leap um leap of faith again? Completely understand.
Speaker 2:so, if we erase that, that would definitely help, um help a lot of uh, a lot of life in the soil exactly, yeah, I think I think a lot of times, a lot of times, when we talk about sustainability, we forget the, the stability or the sustainability of the farmer. So a lot of farmers, you know, when we talk about the yield drag of switching to, you know, more regenerative practices, the question is, would they survive that, you know? Can they go three years?
Speaker 2:you know, having you know. Assuming there's going to be a loss in yield, how is that going to impact them? Are they going to be out of business in two, and so the person coming in, you know? So sustainability has to mean something for them as well as for the rest of us.
Speaker 1:You cannot. What is it the saying? You cannot think green when you're in the red? I think is. I don't remember who said it, either Mike Shepard, gabe Brown, anyway, one of the gurus, obviously. But it's a very hard truth, like either you change because you're deep in red, but it's, or either you go bankrupt and lose the farm, or you have the. You're in the green, but then why would you change? Because apparently things are working, and so that's the conrandrum where we're heading.
Speaker 1:But I want to be conscious of your time as well, and thank you so much for coming on here and opening the black box of soil biology, or showing the black box actually has disappeared in many, many places. They do work, of course, depending on context, depending on which product, et cetera, but we're able to say with quite a lot of certainty what works and what doesn't, which is equally important. So thank you so much for coming on here and share about the journey and give us a good, let's say, state of the universe on biology and soil biology and where we are at, and I'm looking forward to keep checking in, because it feels like this is a space that's moving very, very fast, and so two and a half years. It might seem nothing, but it's a showed a massive shift on where we last checked in with biomakers. So thank you so much, jacob, for being here and, of course, for the work you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you and it is exciting. I'm I'm sure that all of the people that looked at me strangely when I told them I was studying soil and thought how boring that was going to be are going to regret it when they hear how exciting it is now.
Speaker 1:Like archaeology with fossils, which is super interesting, no offense, but it seems like it's a dead. I think at the time it was like a dead medium, or like there's no movement at least, or no life. I mean, they've been proven wrong, exactly.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. For the show notes and links we discussed in this episode, check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculturecom. Forward slash posts. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend or give us a rating on Apple Podcasts? That really helps. Thanks again and see you next time.
