Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast features the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
347 Marcelo Salazar and Zé Porto – A forest super shake to preserve and regenerate the Amazon, the world's largest agroforestry system
A conversation with Marcelo Salazar & Zé Porto, co-founders of Mazô Maná, about how we preserve what is left of the Amazon rainforest, regenerate the forest and, most importantly, truly partner with the Indigenous peoples of the forest who have been stewarding this ecosystem for generations. Yes, the Amazon is a vast, managed agroforestry system. Marcelo e Zé, after decades of working with NGOs deep in the Amazon and building careers with corporate tech giants like Google, decided to create a superfood shake made purely from nutrient-dense ingredients—up to 14— directly sourced from the forest, avoiding monoculture. Indigenous peoples partly own the company.
Why did they choose this model, and why are regenerative brands essential for elevating awareness and consciousness around deforestation? A healthy Amazon is crucial not only for the planet but also for local climates, as recent floods in São Paulo demonstrate. So, how can we encourage health-focused consumers in cities like São Paulo and Rio to buy superfoods from their "backyard", rather than relying on imported products from overseas marketed by fancy foreign brands who are mostly good at marketing?
More about this episode on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/marcelo-salazar-ze-porto.
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In Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast show we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
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How do we preserve what is left of the Amazon rainforest and how do we regenerate the forest? And, most importantly, how do we partner and I mean truly partner with the indigenous peoples of the forest that have been stewarding and facilitating life for as long as we can remember? Yes, the Amazon is a massive managed agroforestry system. Our guests of today, after decades of working with NGOs deep in the Amazon and a career at corporate tech giants like Google, decided to start a superfood shake purely made from nutrient-dense ingredients plural, so no monoland, but up to 14 ingredients directly from the forest, with the indigenous peoples partly owning the company. Why did they go for this model and why do we need regen brands to get to the next level of awareness and consciousness around deforestation and healthy? Amazon is crucial for the whole world, but also for the weather in sao paulo look at the floods recently. So how do we make the health focused consumer in sao paulo and rio and other big cities buy their superfoods from their backyard instead of importing it from overseas, from some fancy brands who are mostly really good at marketing?
Speaker 1:This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast investing as if the planet mattered, where we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return. Why my focus on soil and regeneration? Because so many of the pressing issues we face today have their roots in how we treat our land and our sea, grow our food, what we eat, wear and consume, and it's time that we as investors big and small and consumers, start paying much more attention to the dirt slash soil underneath our feet. To make it easy for fans to support our work, we launched our membership community and so many of you have joined us as a member. Thank you. If our work created value for you and if you have the means and only if you have the means consider joining us.
Speaker 1:Find out more on gumroadcom slash investing in RegenEgg that is, gumroadcom slash investing in RegenEgg or find the link below. Welcome to another episode today with the co-CEOs of a company, mazo Mana, that makes protecting and restoring the Amazon super, super tasty. Welcome, marcelo and Zee.
Speaker 2:Hello, coy, good to be here.
Speaker 1:And of course, I butchered both the name and, because the Brazilian accent, portuguese accent is not that strong, don't start sending emails please, but I'm very happy to have you here. We haven't done a whole lot on the Amazon site In general, on the Amazon on the Brazilian site, and I want to shout out Fernando, who made this connection possible. I'm very much looking forward to dive into, of course, the world of protecting, restoring and superfoods and all that comes with it. But I want to start with a personal question, and you can choose who takes it first, because you have a very different background. How come you spend at the moment, most of your, let's say, waking hours thinking, acting, tasting, selling things around restoration of the Amazon rainforest? What led you to this journey and this profession, which, by all means, is super important but not the easiest one?
Speaker 3:Okay, thank you, cohen. It's a great pleasure to be here with you, speaking directly from the Amazon rainforest. I'm in the banks of Shingu River, in the very heart of the Amazon rainforest, in a place of one of the biggest conflicts of development models. Like in one side we have here in Altamira, people thinking about monoculture, big construction, like here was built at the Belo Monte Dam, which was like a big, a big threat to the region. In the other side, we have here in this region, 11 different indigenous people talking nine different languages. Indigenous people talking nine different languages, riverines, peasantries, amazing landscape in the forest, in the river, very rich biodiversity, and so those people have another mindset, another point of view, which means development. So we are in the middle of this shock of realities, trying to contribute and create alternatives, of course, for the conservation side, to create solutions for value, the culture of indigenous communities, value the biodiversity and all the Amazon rainforest gives to us.
Speaker 2:So great. So, khoi, I'm Zé Great to be here with you. Hello to your listeners. Well, I live in Sao Paulo. I come from a very different background from Marcelo. I live in Sao Paulo. I come from a very different background from Marcelo. I live in a different environment. My whole career and my whole professional life has been in big corporations. I've always worked with marketing and brand building. So I've always worked with stimulating consumption and the past few years, with all the climate change in Brazil, I think we feel it, we've been feeling it very strongly. The lives in our big cities has become very, very difficult and I've become more sensible to that.
Speaker 2:My past work experience was at Google for Latin America and I also had the experience and the opportunity to work in a lot of projects with sustainability and positive impact. So that also kind of veered my career towards this field. And then Mazumana came in my way because of a former friend, actually a friend and former colleague from Google. He's still my friend. Let's be very clear here. Yeah, yeah, he's still my friend, former colleague. So he's one of the early investors at Mazoman and introduced me to Marcelo, and so it was a great opportunity and it's a great privilege to be working with such an important cause with huge impact and, of course, with Marcelo that has an amazing history, background and experience with this since his early ages.
Speaker 1:And I would love to double click more on that as well. But first another question question like how do you transition like, was there a specific moment in in? Like you're in google, um, probably working really hard, but it it's, it's being taken care of really well, like what? What triggered you to say, okay, I give that up, or another corporate career, because it's it's a not saying a golden cage, but it's similar to that. You can stay in there until your retirement, like it's, it's easy to keep going in the consumption, in the earning, in being taken care of as well.
Speaker 1:And then I'm always curious when people say, okay, now enough with that. And and I understand when people have like a big exit with a company or something and they don't have to, but in this case, to take and to, to take on a completely different career. Of course, doing that's now I understand why, why the marketing and branding and etc. Is so well done, but taking on that it's quite a shift. Was there a trigger? Was there, you know, a specific first fire or a specific like meeting or something you had that really triggered like, no, I need to do, to do something else?
Speaker 2:No, I think it was a conjunction of things, right, so it was personal matters that were happening in my life. I think things were changing at Google, so also I was not very happy with the work I was doing. So I think it was a kind of a lot of things happened at the same time, so it wasn't like one big thing. So I guess I always wanted to do a change, but I think we always think of a big of a big moment that is like a, an enlightenment, and and then you take that step. For me at least, it was kind of kind of a lot of things that happened, and then it was so I started. I started studying ESG and sustainability, so I kind of got more involved with this ecosystem, with people that were working with us, and then this friend was investing in Mazur, so there was a, there was a conjunction of things that kind of led to to this.
Speaker 1:And was it difficult to take the jump? Like a friend investing and you think it's an interesting, cool company, you might become a customer. You start buying, maybe you start suggesting, maybe invest something as well. But getting a co-CEO is a jump.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, actually, I think I didn't mention, but I was already taking a sabbatical, so I wasn't at Google anymore. So it was like step by step. So I took a sabbatical, I was just studying and thinking of what I wanted to do next, and then, when Mazumana appeared, it was the kind of like the perfect match for that moment for what I was thinking and reflecting about. So yeah, so again, it was kind of a lot of things that led me to that decision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is an interesting observation or something, when people ask me what gives you hope in this space is that people with outside experience of experience elsewhere, let's say are starting to get really interested in food and agriculture, land use and all the issues and opportunities around it and and start deploying their skills there and starting bringing in there, not just, oh, it's nice if I invest, or it's nice if I buy because I can, it's like no, what do I do in my day to day work, which is probably the biggest lever most of us have, unless you have a massive investment fund, like the biggest lever is our time and our brains are our time.
Speaker 1:So it's fascinating that that starts to happen. I think the last few years, more and more, and still we see more and more people wanting to get involved, wanting to get involved, wanting to get into this regeneration sector. Well, let's switch to Marcelo, and because you have a very different story, 20 plus 25 years deep in the Amazon, you've seen the quote-unquote air-coil development and the clashes. What triggered you, first of all, to go into the Amazon, because I don't think you were born there and then what triggered you to set up a company instead of continuing, which you could have probably have done your NGO work for a long, long time because there's so much to do on that side as well.
Speaker 3:Okay, so no, I have a different story than Zé. I have the luck to be in contact with the Amazon rainforest during my undergrad. I was a student of industry, engineer and I should have a career in companies and so on, but I involved myself in a volunteer work in healthcare in Madeira River, in the Amazon Rainforest. Madeira is Wood River, one of the biggest branch of the Amazon River, supporting logistics and strategic planning of a healthcare work on the ground, with a hospital boat and with doctors, dentistry and so on.
Speaker 3:I was the only engineer in there and I went to the Amazon rainforest because of adventure. Like I love adventure, I love walk in the jungle. I used to climb and do lots of things and I said I need to go to the Amazon rainforest was like a desire, a dream for things. And I said, oh, I need to go to the Amazon rainforest Was like a desire, a dream for me. And I had this opportunity and I was to the Amazon rainforest to walk in the jungle, in the river, to have adventure. And after a month working there, I realized that I was in love with the traditional people and their culture, so I went just a few times really into the jungle. I stayed more inside the communities and at the hospital boat but like, the feeling was like, amazing, like, and I said, wow, I want to continue this work and every vacation I I went to the Amazon rainforest in this project called NAPRA and after my graduation I worked a few years in Sao Paulo in investments and so on.
Speaker 3:But every vacation or holidays, I went to the Amazon Rainforest. So, like, after three years in Sao Paulo, I said no, I need to work and put all my energy to the Amazon Rainforest Conservation, especially to empower and to support the traditional community in the Amazon rainforest. And then began like a long journey and like, uh, I founded an NGO. Then I founded a first company with Brazil nets. Uh, we, we failed with this company. We, we follow uh, falimos bankrupt. We failed with this company. We, how do you say we failed bankrupt? Yeah, Bankrupt.
Speaker 3:The first year. Like we lost all the money. Like was crazy.
Speaker 3:Which means you're a second time founder, more than second time founder and then I went to Europe to study how the market works for fair trade, organic and so on, trying to find a way to have more value for Amazon Rainforest products. That was one of the strongest demands from the community. That was one of the strongest demands from the communities and when I came back I founded another company, a consulted company to support communities to plan to do a strategic plan in their territories Like it was a time in the first mandate of Lula President and Marina Silva as environmental minister, and there was a lot of conservation units and indigenous territories set in Brazil in that time around 2006. And this company went well. We had a good team traveling a lot around the Amazon rainforest and I had no family, no house, no children, so I stayed, like most of the part of the year, inside the communities in meetings, doing surveys and doing this work of planning. So my involvement in the Amazon rainforest was growing and I was invited by one of the biggest NGOs in Brazil called Instituto Socioambiental, or Social and Environmental Institute, to set the office here in Altamira. This was almost 18 years ago and and I accepted this, this uh challenge I had another partner in the company he, he got the consultants and and continue that.
Speaker 3:And I was, uh, I went to isa and we set it a like a a big journey, like more than 15 years working with indigenous people and riverines here in the Xingu River in this area of a lot of conflicts, and the challenges went from like fight against Belomonte Dam, support them to organize health care and get the public policies of healthcare education. Like support them to fight against land grabbers, invaders in their territories, illegal loggers and so on, and also to support them to organize a forest economy network to better trade their products and so on. So we had a good team here on the ground and with a lot of work and challenges and so on, and we created a big journey along 15 years. I can talk more. A big journey along 15 years, I can talk more. There are many very funny episodes and we set it. One of the works was to set what we call middle land network. So I came to Instituto Socioambiental, the Socioenvironmental Institute, here in Altamira.
Speaker 3:Lots of challenges, many different fronts of work and one of them was to support the local communities to organize a network to better trade their products to the market. And this is one very interesting thing when you go to the forest and listen from traditional communities, what they ask as help? They ask opportunities to sell their products, not only one product, because they deal with lots of different ingredients for themselves and part of the ingredients to sell. So and they want, like, of course, better price, long-term contracts, companies or individuals that really wants to trade with them and that understand their way of life and their values and so on, and trying to create opportunities inside a forest Like these are the demands that I listened from many, many years in different parts of the Amazon rainforest, which is the opposite of any monoculture, or even like agroforestries with just a few ingredients that we see in some, like reforestation projects, for example. So what is amazing from those traditional communities is that they really deal with the diversity, like the biodiversity, which is not only the complexity.
Speaker 3:It's not only the forest or ingredients, but it's a relationship that is cultural as well. Like amazon rainforest is a cultural forest or an anthropogenic forest. That is a combination of like it's not the man and the forest. Like the man, the animal, the forest, the river. They are together in the same challenges and they are transforming themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is a strong narrative narrative in, and then we double click on it. But the fact that a lot of this forest is not like, it's not man-made, but definitely man influenced and facilitated maybe it's the better word here but it's not like a pristine like we. We sometimes have this oh let's, what do you do to protect or conserve a rainforest or a forest in general? Let's put a big fence around. Of course I'm generalizing here and then it's okay.
Speaker 1:No, these have been managed for millennia and probably way longer, and in an extreme richness. But if you remove the manager or the steward, the land steward, that would probably suffer, the forest would suffer a lot. And so it's the question how do you manage and facilitate in a way that regenerates while you're harvesting, which goes against all the logic we have of a zero-sum game. And if there's abundance and all those things, I think the one place you can see abundance probably the best is in the jungle or in the forest, a healthily managed forest. But seeing that and seeing that will or the wishes from the indigenous peoples that are managing and have been managing for as long as we can remember probably longer then like, did you find an outlet for that, or did you find ways to work with them or help them through your NGO work?
Speaker 3:Yeah, uh, it's a challenge. Your NGO work yeah, it's a challenge. I think we have many, many different ways to support it. But the first one is to create solutions. That is plural, not only there is not only one solution. Like, we need to combine different ingredients, different contracts, different sources of resource, like nonprofit resource with profit resource, with public policies from the government. So the idea of biodiversity must be applied to any business combination. We need to look for different perspectives. So I think the word is how to create solutions with diversity, not only biological diversity, but cultural diversity, and I think this is key in this work and that's it.
Speaker 1:Which led to your third co-founder as well Very deliberate choice who is not here with us today, but just to speak on that and speak on behalf of her, which, of course, is difficult. But what makes also your company structure fundamentally different than from most things we've seen until now?
Speaker 3:I didn't listen to everything you said, but you talked about Raimunda, which is the third co-founder of Mazomaná, and Raimunda is a riverine that was born inside a forest in the banks of Ediri River and she is part of her family comes from Shipaya people, which is one of the indigenous groups of Xingu, and another part of his family came from the former rubber tappers, the guys that went to the forest because of rubber more than 100 years ago, 150 years ago. So she is like in the 60 or 70 generation of this side of the family and they work and live with all this biodiversity. And Raimunda like I know her almost since she was a teenager and she become very interested in supporting her community to trade their product, to process their product inside the jungle. A model very interesting that make some not industrialization, but make some processing of some products in an area and not only one product.
Speaker 3:So in a small mini factory we call mini factory, they process oil, for example, babassu oil, angiroba oil. They process oil, for example, babassu oil, angiooba oil. They process Brazil nuts, so they dehydrate and pack the Brazil nuts and send to the market. They are now starting to process dehydrated fruits, pounder, acai pounder and this kind of thing which more babassu flower, manioc flower. So they have this logic of multi-product processing inside the communities, so bringing the riverines and indigenous people to work with them some parts of the year.
Speaker 3:So it's not like a traditional factory that the people works eight, ten hours a day, but they work like two or three months a year inside the factory. Another month they take care of their plantations, they go to the jungle to tap Brazil nets, copaiba oil and other products, they fish and so on. So the mini factories, it's one more activity, but it's not the only activity they deal with. So, and Raimunda is the manager of this network and when we start talking about to create a new model of business inside Amazon Rainforest, raimunda was very happy and said oh, I want to be part of it and she is inside our structure inside Amazon Mana.
Speaker 2:But also just to add on that, build on what Marcelo was saying, in terms of our business model also, we have Raimunda, which is a part of a community. She's a riverine person, but we also reserve 10% of our equity to communities associations. So part of our business model is not only including and having a positive impact for the traditional communities, but also including them in different ways, in a more advanced ways than other businesses have done so far, so that they are part of the business. They are part of the decisions they co-create. Also the products, how we move forward and as we grow. They are not benefiting only from us buying ingredients from them, but they have a share on the company. They're not stakeholders, but they are also part. They have a share on the company. They're not stakeholders, but they are shareholders as well.
Speaker 1:Skin in the game.
Speaker 3:And one interesting thing like Patagonia, create this model of nature as a shareholder, like we are trying to push a model that traditional communities are shareholders. So we are trying to push a model that traditional communities are shareholders. So we are trying to create a model and trying to influence other companies to have equity for communities, like equity for communities movements, especially in the Amazon rainforest. When we see the map of the deforestation, it is very clear that where there are traditional communities, there are forests. So the traditional communities uh works like the real, uh like shield, the scudo of protection, shield of protection of the forest.
Speaker 3:So like uh, when, when we see the maps where there are the traditional communities, where there are the deforestation, they are the real ones playing a role to protect the Amazon rainforest, to even create biodiversity in the places they are living. So this is very important. The Amazon rainforest makes more sense, this concept of communities as shareholders than nature as shareholders, because the communities are nature, the communities are inside, are the same thing. It's the same thing and it's easier to make it happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, put nature on your equity balance on your cap table. It might be tricky and it's interesting to think of the steward ownership movement, which is partly what Patagonia did, what some other many companies in Europe and other places are doing, and in this case it's like the ultimate stewards are the stewards of the land and they are part of the significant part of the company and so going to because we've talked around it a bit but what is the company? What are you selling and why did you decide to, let's say, make, as I said in my introduction, the protecting or restoration or regeneration of the Amazon tasty Like? What was the trigger there? And why did you go for these super shakes that you are currently selling and producing?
Speaker 3:So I think our first question here is, like when I was in ESA and talking to many other colleagues in associations or cooperatives and trying to make happen this forest economy, what we see is that the cooperatives and associations they go until a certain level and there are some lacks to make them grow. And mainly these organizations, they're only trade products. They have very difficult to create value over branding, over other services and so on, and I realized that we needed to bring some guys from the market really inside the problems we were facing to create a new generation of business inside Amazon Rainforest. So the question we did in the beginning, together with Aida that was one of the co-founders in the beginning, was what is the best company for Amazon Rainforest Conservation and the communities? And we set some principles Like the company must deal with diverse products we need to deal with like dried products, because the logistics is very complex for like natural fruits or complex for natural fruits or freezing. It has to be dried.
Speaker 1:Anybody that thinks that their logistics are complex go to the Amazon, and that's a whole different level of complexity. It has to be dried, basically.
Speaker 3:There's no way otherwise.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Third point is the community needs to be part of the company since the beginning, which is not common, uh. The fourth is like just ingredients don't pay the bill, uh, for the amazon rainforest protection and for the community. Like we need to combine the ingredients and the environmental services those communities play for the world. For example, when indigenous people go to the jungle to collect Brazil nuts, they deliver nuts with protein, good fat, selenium and other properties. But besides that, while he is collecting the Brazil nuts, he is monitoring the territory. He can see if there are any invasions, he can see if there are something wrong going on, they can see if there are changes in the forest because of climate change and so on. And this is a service that nobody pays for it.
Speaker 3:So we are trying to set some environmental services payments together with the ingredients and production. So this is the challenge we are trying to combine, for example, opportunities from carbon markets or biodiversity credits with the value chain of BrazilNet, babassu Oil, copa Rua Oil and many, many, many other ingredients the communities use. So this was the principles and we started to search what kind of market and products we should start with, and we started studying the market of supplements and we saw wow, here there is an opportunity and I remember that time to know Cachava. It's an American brand with a lot of ingredients, very high value. So we saw this is a very good opportunity to start and set a business and this was our first point to begin Mazomana.
Speaker 1:And then, zé, when you came on board, what did you find or what did you see and what was the state, let's say, when you came in Because Marcelo made a really good point there's a ceiling of what the companies until now, the cooperatives etc. Have been able to get. We need a brand or brands, probably plural. We need, we need to sell this for a margin that makes it worthwhile that it flows back to the people in the amazon, into the land, like that's the it's, I think in general in agriculture and food we're trying. Okay, what are the channels? You can go into the commodity business very difficult to make any money in margins. You can build up a brand, not easy but probably one of the routes to capture more of the value, hopefully from consumers that are interested enough to pay and keep paying, and flow it back to the land. Like what did you find when you joined?
Speaker 2:Yeah, just to build on what Marcelo said before answering your question Also, we do have the consumer brand with the Super Shakes, but we also work do have the uh the consumer brand for with the super shakes, but we also work to uh help the territories with all their potentials, right. So we also sell uh raw ingredients for b2b for other companies and we have a layer of social, social, environmental services bringing other payments for the communities in terms of their services for conserving the biodiversity. So we can talk about that later. But it's a hybrid business model. But we think that the brand, what it goes to consumers, it's a huge brand. What it goes to consumers, it's a huge, important part of the equation because we see the product also as a vehicle, as a mean to raise awareness of the importance of the forests of the communities.
Speaker 2:And the context in Brazil is very different from Europe and US, but mostly Europe. So the Amazon it's kind of like another country. So most of the population with a higher income level in Brazil live around the coast and mostly to the south. So the Amazon, the climate change is not something that is really present and even nature is not something that is really present and even nature is not something that is really present in their, in their lives, and the value that they attribute to, to, to, to the forest and to the work that communities make to uh, conserve our, our, climate. Uh, it's not something that is part of of what say right.
Speaker 2:So, and also, when you see the superfoods and ingredients in the Amazon, we see that foreigners in the US and Europe give more value to them than in Brazil. So we are also facing this brand and the products. Now we have one super shake. We have other products coming, so it's also a way of creating value, not only value in terms of money, but actual value in a broader sense to what is produced in the Amazon and to the services of its community. So it's funny it's also just a small anecdote. So we mostly do our communications through social media and through Instagram, and we get a lot of comments from people saying that our product is too expensive for something that it's found over there in the Amazon, so they see it as something very cheap.
Speaker 1:And yet they pay I don't know what for something that comes from over there. Europe us brand x starbucks, not to mention them, but something like that. That's. That's really interesting, yeah, and challenge, but also very it's a challenge it's.
Speaker 2:It's a challenge, but also we see part of of the work that we do in marketing, communication, in branding, as advocating and educating consumers. It should cost more because it comes from over there, exactly, exactly, but it's funny because people, people think it should be. It should be cheap, uh, because it comes from from traditional communities, because it comes from the amazon, and they think that we are, uh, overpricing it and exploring something that that is cheap. So so it takes a lot of effort to explain, educate people around that, but we think that this is the way.
Speaker 1:Because you're mostly focusing on the Brazilian market. Yeah, exactly for that reason too, because unless Brazilian markets are going to because it's a massive country, very divided, as you mentioned before Unless you're going to care about this in your backyard it's not going to move Exactly.
Speaker 2:So of course, we know and we thought of the product as something that is exportable. I mean, we see a huge potential for it in the US and Europe, but we just launched it. So we need to make it happen here in Brazil first, to fine tunetune the operation and the product development. But here is a different challenge. So it's something that and we need to, and this is something that we need to move the needle right here in Brazil, because people need to value that, People need to understand and it's not for the sake, it's not only for the sake of it, it's not only for the climate emergency although it could be only for that, it would still be very valuable.
Speaker 2:But when you look into the product and into the ingredients that the Amazon produces, there's a lot of it's rich in nutrients. It's great for your health. I mean our product. It's highly nutritionally dense, so it's a quality product that is good for your health. So, only in the rational mode, it should be already something that you would pay more for it and, plus, you're buying it. You're creating value for the Amazon and for the community. So this is something we've been dealing with. So we have a lot of rational attributes and talking points to convince people to buy it. And we also have this broader package in terms of socially and environmentally focused minded.
Speaker 3:And one thing which is good to just add in what Zé said for example, the people who are searching for a better health or a more nature way of life, most of them consume, for example, soy protein or beans protein or rice protein that came many times from monocultures or from areas that were degraded and, of course, it's cheaper when you have all the products in the same area and in areas that you are generating externalities to the environment that nobody pays for.
Speaker 3:This is what led us to this climate crisis uh, that generate a lot of sternalities like greenhouse gases and like uh problems to the soil and so on, and nobody pays for that. And in the other side, in the forest, we are creating products with a very good proteins, for example, from from Brazil nuts flour, which came from a dense forest with a lot of biodiversity, and collecting these Brazil nut forests, the rubber tappers or the indigenous people. They generate positive externalities for the country, for the planet. For example, when they are conserving the forest, the forest is contributing for climate, country, for the planet. For example, when they are conserving the forest, the forest is contributing for climate regulation to avoid greenhouse gases to the environment, and nobody pays for it. So what we are trying to do in the Mazamana business model is to capture these different values and put inside the pack we sell, so the communities can get money from the ingredients they sell, which is not cheap, but also get money from carbon credits, from biodiversity credits and so on, projects that we are supporting to develop as well.
Speaker 2:And Coyne just to wrap that up. I mean this is super important to make those ingredients more competitive and still bring value and financial support to the communities. Because when we think of Brazil, I mean the average income of a family is very low compared to a country like US or any European country. So price is still a very people are very sensitive to price. Price is a barrier. So if we want people to actually experience and have those products and value those products, we need to find a way where the prices are lower but still we are giving it back to the communities in a very fair way and in a way that is very relevant and significant to actually move the needle and change their context and reality. So that's why the combination of ingredients, selling ingredients plus social, environmental services is really important because that will kind of subsidize part of the cost of producing those ingredients and like you said, we have to explain that we are not getting rich out of this and cruising on a yacht somewhere in the mediterranean.
Speaker 1:Um, like, how far did you take? Like, because we've seen companies like oh me, a french company, to really, on their website, on the product basis, basically break it down this is how much we paid a farmer, this is how much we paid a processor, this is how much goes to vat and transport, etc. And in their case, the transparency is one of the selling points. Like, have you played with that idea, have you? I mean, it's very young business. I'm not one of them. Um, koi, I don't know, but like, it seems like it's important to communicate. Look, this is, this is what it costs at the moment. And like, there's nobody getting rich out of this. And um, like, what have you? How do you explain? That is my question, I think. How do you try to explain until now, when you get those comments on instagram like you're too expensive because it comes from, it just comes from the amazon?
Speaker 2:like, just, between yeah, so, yeah, we've been, we've been. Uh, this is on our roadmap on how to make it more transparent. Now we are focusing on two strategies, like in terms of communications, like explaining, like the benefits, the functionality of the ingredients, and the combination of those ingredients is even more powerful in terms of what it does to your health. So we are actually convincing by reason, right? So by rational.
Speaker 1:There is that group there, like it's a group responding in Brazil as well, like the super foodies that honestly, they make sacrifices to be able to pay. Like they, they pay quite significantly like the superfood focused people for specific ingredients, magnesium pills, like very interesting things that you can also get from the forest like. Are they responding to your, your, your product?
Speaker 2:they are. They are so. So we are finding a lot of great responses. Of course, we're talking about more of a premium and niche target, to start with, higher income level. So, yes, so in big cities that we have a lot of people that are connected, that are the same way that you find in the US and Europe, that people that are worrying about health, longevity, well-being, so they are searching for those ingredients, for those functionalities, and then when they see that thing packed into something that is supernatural, with no chemicals, no additions, and also coming from the Amazon, they see the whole value of it.
Speaker 2:We've been working also with nutritional health professionals, been working also with nutritional health professionals so to become our ambassadors, they see more easily the value of the product in terms of the health and then you also in terms of the health of the planet. You have a lot of nutrition and health professionals that are connected with nature, with the Amazon cause. So this is a niche and this is a way of finding other people through them to reach those consumers and also, and again, explaining kind of the process of making a product like that with ingredients from the communities. How much does it take, how far is it? What is implied in that process? Uh, it's part, it's. It's a step by step. Every day is like we.
Speaker 1:we try to do that, uh and but for you as a marketing and communication, this must be so fun as well, because there's so many stories here and so many angles and so many like. It's not like you have to, exactly. You look left and right and you have like content for a year.
Speaker 2:Exactly so, yeah, so so we're, we're, we're trying, we have like an editing process, because there's a lot of content, there's a lot of stories, the super rich stories that we want to bring more to life. So, like Haimunda is a great storyteller, she has her community, her. There's a lot of stories and I think people are not aware of that and when they see it, when they hear it, it resonates somehow. It is interesting. And we think there is an audience that is craving for that and it's interested in those kind of things more and more. And mercy Go ahead, craving for that, and it's interested in those kind of things more and more. And and mercy go ahead, no, no. And then just just quite recently, we have had some very tragic episodes in brazil in terms of climate, so in the south. So I think people are becoming more aware yeah, you mentioned that before.
Speaker 1:Like you, you started feeling it in the cities now as well, which is very sad, but also maybe needed, or at least let's use it.
Speaker 2:Let's use it Exactly, yeah, so now you see people connecting the dots I think the press is also more aware and making more content and creating more content and reports about that connecting the Amazon with what is happening in the south of Brazil, so in terms of rainfalls, droughts, so extreme weather. Connecting with the Amazon and people are feeling in their day-to-day in the big cities, unfortunately. But if there is the positive side of it is that they are becoming more sensitive and more aware of the climate change. So there is a space there where we can navigate and elevate our product and our cause.
Speaker 1:And Marcelo is thinking welcome to the party a bit late, but thank you that you finally realized that the Amazon is fundamental for the whole region for health, the climate, your weather, your floods everything starts and ends in the amazon, um, but thank you for for showing up 20 years after the rest started paying attention to it. But I was that for you living in the amazon that it seems finally slowly people start to um see that not just as an issue there like, oh yeah, deforestation is very important, but it's so far for me anyway, because it's five hour flight. But actually deforestation there, directly in, like effects of floods in in in Sao Paulo, like, do you see that? Like, is that? Like, how does it make you feel?
Speaker 3:Having said that, probably for the last 20 years, yeah, I think there is increasing interest in the Amazon rainforest and the government is, in the last most 20 years, investing more and more, Besides of the period of the last government in Brazil, which was very bad for environment, not only in the Amazon rainforest but in other countries. But we had very good achievements in the side of public policies recognition of indigenous territories, conservation units, public policies of health, education for traditional people. Of course there is a lot to be done, but the government is playing a role. I see that philanthropy came in stronger and stronger to the Amazon rainforest with, for example, Rainforest Foundation Norway, Moore Foundation in the United States and many, many really good and great foundations interested in creating solutions for the Amazon conservation.
Speaker 3:Like the Amazon, Fund is an example of this negotiation from countries, philanthropy and so on to create extra money to invest in the Amazon rainforest. But in the last few years I feel a movement of impact investments came into the Amazon rainforest, people interested in creating new business and so on, and I think this was the missing point to how to really connect the Amazon rainforest in a good way to the market, like really giving the value for the traditional communities, for the Amazon rainforest cities, creating opportunities for small properties to deal with biodiversity and not to the deforestation or cattle or so on. So I think we are in a turning point and it's very difficult. I think there is a long way, but it's happening.
Speaker 1:And for the local communities. Like, how fundamental is the work? Of course not. How fundamental is the work you're doing, but buying this, the super shake you have now with, I think, 14 ingredients, like, is that? Of course you're small, you just started, but is that moving the needle for communities? How impactful is the fact that somebody is buying a lot of these ingredients still not, not not 100 ingredients, but 14, is more than one? Like, how, how important is that, and plus the processing, for local communities, indigenous peoples too, does it really move their, their, the needle in terms of of their finance, in terms of their, their well-being?
Speaker 3:As we are very small yet our financial impact is still very low. But I think the business model is something that people are realizing that, wow, we have an opportunity here. Let's try to bring other partners like this one. Let's try to push our associations or cooperative in a different way to the market. So, like these discussions about business model, how to combine, like, money from impact investments with money from philanthropy find ways inside the government. I think this movement is that we are creating more impact nowadays in this movement than the impact of the ingredients we buy nowadays, but in four or five years, when we expect to be big enough to create a big impact on ingredients as well and also to create opportunities for very good carbon credit projects and payment for environmental services and so on.
Speaker 3:Yesterday we had a big conference in Brazil about climate and carbon and when we talk to these people, everybody talks about carbon, how to create the projects, how to sell the carbon. Oh, the projects of conservation are bad evaluated because had many problems. But people are not talking about what to do with the money of the carbon, like how to apply in the community in a good way which is creating value in their ingredients, supporting healthcare, education and so on. So the people of the carbon market don't understand yet what is necessary and what moves the communities on the ground. In the other side, like two weeks ago, we were contributing to the national plan of bioeconomy.
Speaker 3:So everybody was talking about ingredients, about how to better trade ingredients, the incentives and so on, but just focusing ingredients. How to better trade ingredients, the incentives and so on, but just focusing ingredients, which is part of the solution. So what we are trying to do is linking those two discussions. This is a key movement for creating value to the forest and to the communities how to make the money go in a good way to the ground and not in a way that creates conflicts, in a way that creates more threats. For example, the money that went from Belo Monte Dam to the communities was in a bad way and created a lot of divisions and fights and like bad investments on the ground. So that is something we are trying to connect those two different words.
Speaker 1:Which is a perfect bridge to a few questions. We like to ask is and I will start with the first one is what would you be your main message? Let's say, we do this in Sao Paulo, in the financial heart of Brazil or in another financial heart around the world, and the audience? We do this in the theater. I like to ask the question in that way we are in a theater, we do this live on stage. Of course, we had good food before. We can taste the Amazon forest. We've seen a lot of imagery and the audience is full of people working in finance, either with their own money, like impact investors, or working with other people's money. What would be your main message, your main seed you want to plant that they remember the next day, because, of course, everybody's always inspired the evening and then the next day at work maybe less, or they forgot many things. What would be the seed you would like to plant that they hopefully do something.
Speaker 3:I think my message is you want to invest in the Amazon rainforest, try harder and listen more. Then try to listen more than try to teach to the Amazon rainforest communities and local people. I think the indicators they use many of them doesn't apply for the region. Like be courageous, curious courageous, courageous, yeah, courageous really courageous, like.
Speaker 3:we have a lot of opportunities, but I feel the investors not the investors of Mazomaná, but the many others not courageous enough to really create a new business for the Amazon Rainforest Conservation. Courageous investors able to be in the ground, to listen, to test, to fail and to create new path. I think this is a key message.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I also from the conversations that we've had with those more traditional investors, I think they try to apply regular rules, KPIs, frameworks to a place that it's different, to a context that's completely different. So there isn't like an actually good will to adapt and listen, as Marcelo said, and adapt. So they just try to replicate, right. So, and it's not possible to replicate what you're doing in Sao Paulo or in New York to nature, right so it needs a little bit, there is a ramp up, but so you need to adapt. It's a different context.
Speaker 3:And Cohen. Like I see many interests in reforestation here in the Amazon rainforest. There are different companies and investors putting money in the reforestation and many of them talking on behalf of Amazon rainforest restoration and so on. But many projects are dealing with just a few ingredients, few species and dealing with farmers but not with the forest. At the same time, we are losing per year about 10,000 square kilometers of forest. So we need more intelligence and investments in how to protect the forest and avoid deforestation. Of course, the two kinds of investments are very important. Two kinds of investments is very important, but I feel that we need to balance more and try to bring more investors, research and point of view to how to make the forest be sand and not only reforestation. Reforestation is a bit easier because many of them occur in private properties and the conservation many of them occurs in traditional community lands who belong to government, who are collective properties, which the investors see as a very high complexity, very risky and so on. So uh, but I think are the marvelous experience come from the forest and just to to, to talk a little bit about a concept of mazomanai uses a lot.
Speaker 3:It's's a concept of hyperdominant vegetation of the forest. I don't know if you know, but Amazon rainforest has about 16,000 different species like vegetable trees, and about a little more than 200 species is responsible for 50% of all the forests. So there is opportunity to work with this more than 200 species together and create like a scalable business model that can support many of the communities and the rainforests. And this theory comes from an intersection of biology, anthropology and archaeology. And there are like two of big masters of anthropology and archaeology in the United States that studied fossil rainforests from a long time Mike Hackenberger from Florida University it's one of the biggest archaeologists in the Amazon rainforest that, together with Eduardo Neves, a Brazilian archaeologist, are working a lot to develop this knowledge from ancient communities in the Amazon rainforest. And William Ballet, for example, from Tulane University, was one of the first guys to talk about the concept of cultural forests.
Speaker 3:So all these ingredients were managed by traditional communities, like when they move it from a place to another along more than 10 000 years. They create this effect of hyper dominance because every time they move it from one place to another, they carry it with them like the seeds. They use it for food, for house construction, for canoes from many materials, and this created this effect of. This is the biggest agroforest we have in the world, like the Amazon rainforest, managed by traditional communities alongside, like more than 2,000 years, created like this biggest agroforest, this huge agroforest, and named it by Amazon Rainforest. This is an amazing concept that is behind our choices of ingredients, behind our partnerships we do here.
Speaker 1:And flipping the question what would you do I mean your message to investors, both of you, whoever wants to take first if you would be in charge of a large investment fund. Let's say, we usually use the example of a billion dollars, which I don't know how much it is in Brazil, right, but let's say I use the example because it's so much money that it gives. Of course, I'm not looking for investment advice or exact investment amounts, but what would be the big buckets you would focus on? What would be the main three, four or five areas that you would deploy? This, which could be extremely long-term investments, doesn't have to return in five to 10 years, doesn't have some of in five to 10 years, doesn't have some of the normal return profiles, but it would be nice if it returns at some point. It's not grant money, but it's investment money. What would you do if you had access to so much money to be deployed?
Speaker 3:invest at least 50% directly to the forest communities to empower and to promote their way of life. Like they know how to manage and how to create diversity, and put half of the money in their hands and really nice things come up.
Speaker 1:How would you do it different than what happened with the Belmont Dam, where a lot of money not this amount, but a lot of money came in very quickly without any governance or structure. How would you do that? How would you avoid those pitfalls of the Dutch disease?
Speaker 3:Okay, this has to do about the second half of this money. I would split in two. At least One of them invests on community partners as NGOs or government or even companies to support them but lead it by them in the governance, in the technology development, in this intersection of knowledge, of what they know and what the science can provide to us. And the other part of the money in a very innovative business models that can be connected with the forest.
Speaker 1:Thank you and Zé, what would you do?
Speaker 2:I would well, I'm going to use my marketing hat. So I think we need to create demand and value perception for those products and for the cause. So I think we need to invest in education advocacy, creating demand and market for those products, because any report that you read, at least in education advocacy creating demand and market for those products, because any report that you read, at least in Brazil, regarding drivers of consumption, people are super aware of climate change, they are aware of sustainability, but it's not One of the countries with the most like the highest awareness and action.
Speaker 1:I think it keeps popping up.
Speaker 2:But it doesn't drive change of habits, so people, it doesn't drive uh choice in terms of consumption.
Speaker 2:So I think we need to create demand, we need to create market for those brands, products and create value so people perceive value. Uh, I think we need, I would invest in, as Marcelo said, in the supply chain so that the ingredients are more competitive, and so technology for communities for so that the ingredients and the production is more efficient and more competitive in terms of price and the other part, I would just just slip my mind. So marketing, uh, marketing ingredients, supply chain and um, and data. I think, uh, we need there's a lot of initiatives of monitoring and adding a layer of data to ingredients and to the territories, but still we don't have a large scale project or company or initiative that actually adds data to everything that comes from the territory, and I think the data adds value, adds stories and uh, and it's super important in terms of monitoring, the monitoring, the deforestation, but also adding like real, certified trackability of ingredients because you're gonna get other quote, other quote, unquote, amazon superfoods that are coming from monocultures and things like that.
Speaker 1:And as a final question, what would you do? Unfortunately, you're no longer in charge of a billion dollars, but you are given the magic power, or the power to change one thing overnight, and only one thing. So if you had a magic wand to change one thing overnight, and only one thing. So if you had a magic wand to change one thing overnight, what would that be?
Speaker 1:one thing overnight could be anything. Consciousness, like. We've heard many different things, all animals outside. From consciousness to subsidies, disappearing to incentives, like, really. But also better flavor, better taste. People can see behind the supermarket what's actually happening in our food system. We've had people taking many different directions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, from where I sit, I think the biggest barrier is consciousness, awareness. I think people are superficially aware but are not really touched by the issues that we are going through, and so I think this is one of the main challenges and one of the main opportunities for actually changing the context, because I think the only thing that will make a change is its money. In the end, it's still capitalism, right? So if people are not buying and actually putting money on that, there won't be a huge volume of efforts to actually change the context, and I think it will start with people. So people will drive the change, and so they need to be more sensible and aware and actually change habits. So I guess that would be a great starting point to change the whole ecosystem and the whole context where we are situated.
Speaker 1:And as a final question, also to you, marcelo what would you do if you so we take away your fund? Unfortunately, I'm sorry, hopefully it's all deployed so you don't have to. We're not taking it back, but we took away that massive amount of money. But we do give you the power to change one thing overnight. And so what would you do if you had the power to change one thing overnight? Could be anything from consciousness to subsidies, super pragmatic, super. I mean we've we've heard them not saying we've heard them all, but we've heard a whole spectrum of uh, of um answers there. But if you had the chance to change one thing, what would it be?
Speaker 3:one thing I think stop completely the deforestation in the Amazon rainforest, Like I think it could change many things.
Speaker 1:Now I'm interested to unpack that a bit more. What would it? Let's say, tomorrow morning that happens. What is the biggest thing that would change, apart from, of course, trees stop falling? But what's the bigger trigger effects or something that happens after? That would be the case.
Speaker 3:I think the climate balance will start to be restored Because actually in Brazil, like when almost all other countries, the major contribution for climate crisis is related to oil, to emissions over petróleo oil. Here in Brazil it's because of deforestation causes many threats to traditional communities, to the forest, to diversity of culture and so on. And my bet is, if we really stop the deforestation, we will create more life over this knowledge in the traditional communities. It will force the private properties around the forest to create another models so it can create the real revolution that will make more sense plant forests than stop them. Because we have not good regulations, not good investments to really stop the deforestation.
Speaker 3:People still bet that, oh, I will do deforestation, the land will value more, I will sell this land, I will put more cattle, I will put more. I will sell this land, I will put more cattle, I will put more soya beans. So we never change, really change the model of monoculture. So if we really stop, I think it will make changes in people's mind and it will create opportunities over diversity and over forest stand, resulting in better climate here in Brazil and better climate to the world because of carbon emissions, but because of many other things like biodiversity, because they have an effect of increase the temperature of an air conditioner. How can I say Air conditioning.
Speaker 1:Air conditioning the world.
Speaker 3:So in many other effects it's not only related to to carbon emissions.
Speaker 1:That's it like thank you so much. Thank you so much for for that and obviously for for the work you do and coming on here to to share about it and share more about your journey um, really really, really interesting. I'm looking forward forward to keep following it over time and see how you're getting the healthy, focused superfood, let's say, disconnected from nature in the big cities to be interested in their backyard again and to be interested in that Amazon forest. That is pretty far, but not that far, but actually keeps them alive in general and maybe even more directly through the food they eat. So we need more brands, we need more, obviously, money and financial streams and skin in the game for the people that are doing the hard work of stewarding the land, maintaining the land and maintaining the biggest agroforestry system we have, which is the Amazon. So thank you so much for coming on here, marcelo, and thank you for the work you do.
Speaker 3:And thank you very much to having us here and to put us in your amazing program, amazing podcast. It's an honor to be here and to spread a little bit of our messages to your public and I invite you to be here whenever you want. Let's do a live program inside the Django interviewing indigenous people listen to the river, to the forest and so on.
Speaker 1:I think a podcast is the ideal medium for that. Walking the land, walk and talk is probably the best way to experience and the sound. I can only imagine the soundscape that comes from that in terms of. We sometimes have We've done some interviews on farms, obviously, and walked the land, walk and talk with farmers, walking the land with a regenerative farmer, and we've had people comment on the bird sounds, et cetera, but I can only imagine the sheer sound levels in a healthy jungle. That will be a whole different level of this podcast. It will happen, people, at some point. I can't promise this year or next year, but definitely on our list to make that happen. So thank you so much for the invite. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. For the show notes and links we discussed in this episode, check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculturecom. Forward slash posts. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend or give us a rating on Apple Podcasts? That really helps. Thanks again and see you next time.
