Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast features the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
357 Kiira Heymann - From Non-GMO to Non-ultra-processed: everyone has the right to know what’s in their food
A conversation with Kiira Heymann, Director of Strategic Partnerships at the Non-GMO Project and the Food Integrity Collective. After the success of the Non-GMO Project in the U.S., which is now featured on almost 63,000 products, the team is launching the Non-Ultra-Processed Food verification. In this conversation, we discuss why—why introduce another label? And why is it so important for the food sector to focus on increasing consumers' capacity to demand more from their food system, rather than just adding another label?
This isn't just another label—it's a carefully considered intervention designed to reconnect people with their food in profound ways. When 70% of American store shelves hold ultra-processed products engineered with ingredients banned in other countries, the stakes couldn't be higher. What makes this effort particularly fascinating is how it challenges the very foundation of food certification itself. Rather than creating another "shortcut to trust", the team is exploring how to eliminate the need for certifications entirely by rebuilding true transparency in our food system. Their research shows 81% of North Americans are concerned about questionable ingredients in their food, yet only 17% feel knowledgeable about the topic—a gap this initiative aims to close.
Beyond ingredients, this movement addresses the cognitive impact of ultra-processed foods. Studies show these products can significantly impair brain function in as little as 30 days, creating a troubling cycle where the very foods engineered to be addictive are simultaneously diminishing our capacity to make better choices. By helping consumers understand and avoid ultra-processed foods, the certification offers a pathway toward better physical and mental wellbeing.
Currently in its pilot phase with 20 pioneering brands, the non-UPFs verification program aims to launch products by fall 2025. The certification represents more than just another shopping guide—it's an invitation to experience the profound difference real food makes in how we feel, think, and connect with our world.
More about this episode on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/kiira-heymann.
==========================
In Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast show we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
==========================
👩🏻💻 VISIT OUR WEBSITE https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/
📚 JOIN OUR VIDEO COURSE: https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/course/
Thoughts? Ideas? Questions? Send us a message!
Thank you to our Field Builders Circle for supporting us. Learn more here
Get your tickets here, regular tickets are sold until Feb 1st
https://2025.ai4soilhealth.eu/
Find out more about our Generation-Re investment syndicate:
https://gen-re.land/
Feedback, ideas, suggestions?
- Twitter @KoenvanSeijen
- Get in touch www.investinginregenerativeagriculture.com
Join our newsletter on www.eepurl.com/cxU33P!
Support the show
Thanks for listening and sharing!
Diet-related disease is the number one cause of death worldwide. That's preventable. The highest outcome for us of launching another certification is to increase the capacity of eaters to want something more from their food system. People again inherently know that they want better, simpler, easier-to-digest whole foods, and when they have products of convenience, cpgs in the store that they know that they can trust to do that's huge.
Speaker 2:After the success of the non-GMO project in the US, which is now featured on almost 63,000 products, the team is launching a non-ultra-processed food verification. In this conversation, we talk about the why. Why another label, and why it's so important for the food sector to focus on increasing the capacity of the eaters to want something more from their food system instead of just another label. This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture food podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return. Welcome to another episode Today with the Director of Strategic Partnerships at the Non-GMO Project and the Food Integrity Collective. Welcome, kira.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 2:And we always start with a personal question and basically trying to deduct usually a winding road. And basically trying to deduct usually a winding road. Like nobody or I think hardly anybody on this podcast until now had a very direct route to what they're doing or what they're currently spending most of their waking hours on. But I'm always curious how people end up in the food space and then end up, of course, doing, let's say, the non-easy work in this sector. So I'm going to ask you that as well, like how did you end up working on integrity of food, non-gmo, and what led you to this specific role?
Speaker 1:Yeah, food has always been a really big part of my consciousness.
Speaker 1:My mom was a cookbook author, cookbook developer, recipe gal she still is a food stylist and so I just grew up seeing how food was a portal to the rest of the world.
Speaker 1:Right, it was a portal to connection, to tradition, to communicating something with people and audience that she didn't know through her cookbooks, and so I took it for granted. And then it was only until I was in college and I got really interested in the actual growing of food and in studying environmental studies that I started to think about ways that I could apply it professionally. And it still was a circuitous route. Like my background is an experiential education and I originally joined the Non-GMO Project in that capacity to think about educating brands and clients about the Non-GMO issue. I work at the Non-GMO Project and Food Integrity Collective, which is a a mission driven 501c3 non-profit, and that communications piece, that education piece and finding ways to spark interest and curiosity and our biggest stakeholders, which are cpg brands, retailers and also which I will talk a lot about today eaters that's really huge for us and that's my role at the non-gmo project.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, and how did that say evolve from focusing on the education piece to this food integrity project, the ultra processed food, which we'll explore as well? And actually, let's back up a second for the people that don't know the non-gmo project. Haven't seen the butterfly around? Yeah which is probably a chunk in our listeners, because most of them have maybe seen it somewhere, or like it does ring a bell. What is a non-GMO project currently? Because we're talking the beginning of 2025, and why should people know about it?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So the non-GMO project focuses on consumer activation to drive food systems change, and we started back in 2007, focusing solely on the single issue of GMOs, which was in eater and consumer consciousness, particularly in North America, where that term and the crops were not regulated and so they were flooding the marketplace.
Speaker 1:And we were actually founded by a group of retailers who said our eaters, our shoppers, our consumers need to have the right to know. They need to know what they're making, they need to know what they're putting into their bodies when they come and they shop at our stores. And so we've grown then, from that small time in 2007, all the way now to having over 63,000 products verified in the North American marketplace. And while the GMO issue is still really important and relevant now, we've moved from an era of transgenic crops right, mostly corn and soy, found in a lot of processed foods to an era of novel gene editing that is infiltrating our food system. We still feel like that's really relevant, but the core underpinning of what we do is provide choice for eaters who want to know what's in their food system, and that's not always readily available.
Speaker 2:And so on the non-GMO side, it's a specific like how do you make sure people know it's a certification? It's a butterfly on the packaging right to show that it's not. How is that shifted? Let's say, consumer eater choices and demands.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think what's interesting about the Non-GMO Project Butterfly, which you often see in conjunction with the USDA Organic Seal throughout North America, is that consumers associate it with a feeling of natural, a feeling of choice, a feeling of better for you. And the GMO issue is one that's really complex. We're talking about editing at the DNA level, right, but inherently, intuitively, shoppers know that they want something that is unadulterated, that has been studied in a long-term capacity. We often talk about the precautionary principle, right, and eaters associate that with a butterfly. And today, every two years, we do a consumer market research push to better understand what's happening with all the little bugs on the marketplace, and people find that the importance of the Non-GMO Projects deal is the highest in the marketplace and it's our job as a nonprofit to do that education and outreach about that. But what I think is really important in focusing in on is that, inherently and intuitively, people want to know what's in their food and we're providing that option just by having that lead ball on back.
Speaker 2:So why the step to the Integrity Project and our collective and also the ultra processed food side of things? Because it doesn't sound like and I don't think it is the GMO battle is anywhere near done. There's not.
Speaker 2:It's not a let's say'd say, oh, we can wave the flag and and there's a victorious like the. I think the battle became less nasty if you listen to nasim taleb, who has been harassed endlessly by monsanto, when he published a lot of cautious risk assessments on gmos, and since bayer took over that's been, let's say, more mild.
Speaker 2:They're not calling his university anymore, to make sure he gets fired and all kinds of other things. But it doesn't mean that of course we're in a better place. And so why broadening? Because I sorry, I can't imagine it's been an easy journey and I can't imagine it's done. So what gave birth to you? Yeah, to a much broader and does more work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So the Food Integrity Collective, which is a project of the Non-GMO Project, started last summer and it was really a product of our process to think about how we can continue to evolve our contribution to the food system.
Speaker 1:And when we think about food certifications, we always talk about this in a really great way and I'm excited to unpack this a little bit.
Speaker 1:But we talk about food certifications being we always talk about this in a really great way and I'm excited to unpack this a little bit but we talk about food certifications being a shortcut to trust and that's part of the value proposition of signing up with a non-GMO project or getting USDA organic.
Speaker 1:You're connecting with a consumer that's really disconnected from their food system, that has no idea what farm that's come from, what practices are there, who is growing and handling the food right. So it's this shortcut to trust and, with the success of the non-GMO project and the fact that we are this rigorous third party, that's another reason why we're so popular in the marketplace is that people know that it's the number one choice for GMO avoidance. We started to ask this question of why do we need a shortcut? What does true trust and transparency look like in the food system and how do we evolve food certifications to actually be a tool to change what's happening in the industrials food system space? And part of this has been our deep study on living systems thinking in the School of Carol Sanford and then through ReNourish Studio with Glenn Tucker.
Speaker 1:And asking ourselves these shout out to Lauren because a lot of this thinking, which is really hard, rigorous thinking, we're challenging the underlying assumption of who we are as an organization. Right, I just said, like, how do we evolve food certifications? How do we get rid of the need?
Speaker 2:for food certifications. Right, it's great. It's there Exactly. How do we do that? Like every shortcut, do you want to take the shortcut?
Speaker 1:Exactly Like, what is the system and the full potential that we can provide the food system. And with that deep question in mind, we talked a lot about what does certification 2.0 look like? And then what does that beyond model of certification look like? And so we launched the Food Integrity Collective and gathered a bunch of thought leaders, 10 different CPG brands represented, and we meet every month to talk about that how we evolve the capacity of the food system and specifically that idea around trust and transparency. And we built out a framework, an eight-petal framework, that looks at many different issue areas.
Speaker 1:And I think what's neat about that and I always joke it's all we're boiling the ocean and we have no intentions of becoming a meta-certification and adding the increased costs and inefficiencies that certifications often get a bad rap for doing.
Speaker 1:We have no intentions of doing that, but what we want to do and what we want to honor is the interconnection of all these different issue areas, from minimal processing and additives to nutrient density, which we're really invested in, to biodiversity and regenerative sourcing, all the way to water and packaging. We want to figure out how we can coherently tell a narrative and elevate the good work that's being done in the system so that eaters have again a sense of empowerment, sense of sovereignty when they show up to say I'm sitting at this table, I'm going shopping for this food and I feel connected to the choices that I'm making, and so we meet monthly to discuss that and it also, under that umbrella, gives us a lot of permission to explore and better understand really why we're even focusing on the GMO issue. How is it nested in this bigger space and how can we pull certain levers to get the outcomes that we?
Speaker 2:want, which is very interesting from a meta perspective as well. Like you're not going for, okay, let's do another certification or a meta perspective as well. Like you're not going for, okay, let's do another certification or a meta one. Or really asking the deeper, underlying question why are certifications needed or necessary until now? How does it look like in a perfect world or a new world, or in the future world? And so how do you give that choice without overwhelming? Because I think you can put 600 different badges on packaging now, Of course, the ETH and consumer is confused, logically. And so you launched in the summer. We're now a bit over the winter in the northern hemisphere. What have been some of those conversations? Because none of this is easy, obviously. What are some of the directions and things you can share on of that journey? This is easy, obviously.
Speaker 1:What are some of the directions and things you can share of that journey? Yeah, something that I think is really exciting is that we have now the permission to gather with a group of thought leaders to have hard conversations about all of these things and to talk about with a certifying body the good, the bad and the ugly about the potential for food certifications, which I think is really good, the bad and the ugly about the potential for food certifications, which I think is really good. And we can get into conversations about tools, like we've been exploring what does a web app look like or what are other ways to deliver our messaging. But at the core, what we really want to talk about is the furthest potential we can envision so that we can make an impact and a difference. And I guess I just want to take a pause to talk about why this intervention now, because it is part of this broader strategy. And when you look at the Non-GMO project, launching something new, which may look like a copy and paste moment, right, like we're also just, as of this January, launching a non-ultra processed food verification, and it can look like, oh, they're just trying to do what they've done again before, but really what we're hoping to do is to capture a moment, like we did with the GMO issue, in this space where eaters are, it's in collective consciousness, right To hopefully elevate and scaffold eaters into a broader conversation about their own connection with food, and so we're really being particular about why we're choosing the issue around non-ultra process and scaffolding up for there. So I just I think that's an interesting thing too.
Speaker 1:We have this long history in the United States long 20 plus years and Megan, our founder of Zio, has been working on this since long time early 2000s and people have come to us with the advent of the regenerative movement, with the advent of focus on soil health, and be like can you just copy and paste what you did with non-GMO by people, stakeholders, like our big retail partners and things like that, and the answer for us was always like this doesn't feel right, because what is our specialty, our niche and the place that we work best is with activating an eater movement, a consumer-based movement, and soil health didn't ring true Like in 2017, I remember I was pulled into work on our report called like non-GMO plus what, and at that point it was all about soil health, it was all about soil carbon sequestration and there's so much value to that as an individual issue and when we think about the lever to pull for shifting to more regenerative acres.
Speaker 1:For us, that wasn't the captivation moment right, that wasn't the right place for us to play in order to drive sales in the retail space. So it's been a long and considered process and we're still exploring how this looks, but we're excited to be launching a new certification that hopefully helps build individual eaters capacity to think about.
Speaker 2:So what made UPF like ultra processed food the trigger to do it instead of the other, let's say, candidates that have passed your desk over the last decade.
Speaker 1:Yeah, For one thing, it's not defined very readily, at least not in the marketplace in North America, which is similar to the GMO issue, and where we operate in Canada, the US and Mexico there's not a lot of regulation in terms of at least not in comparison to the EU or other places globally for what inputs get put into our food, and so, just like the GMO issue, it's wow, look at all these other countries who are operating from this precautionary principle place and we just have this food being basically experimented with, just to unpack that.
Speaker 2:what's the principle? The precautionary principle. I think it's a fundamental life. Let's say knowledge to have, but let's repeat it a few times because I think it's important for people to double-click.
Speaker 1:Totally. Oh gosh, let's see if I have the same definition that you do. Let's see what we come up with. I'm going to put mine.
Speaker 2:I'm going to put, I think, in the show notes later, but please do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally this idea that GMOs were novel when they entered the marketplace. We don't know the long-term impacts on human health, on ecosystem health. We're talking about wind-pollinated crops like corn that are all of a sudden being planted next to each other, and genetic material from other living beings, like bacteria in the case of the original BT corn, is now spread everywhere, and so this idea of a precautionary principle is that we don't have long-term longitudinal studies to show that this is safe. We don't yet have any evidence, at least in the human health side, that GMOs are directly related to poor health outcomes, for example. But we know inherently, back to like why do eaters trust this butterfly? Inherently, we know that nature shouldn't be tinkered with, and how dare we, as humans, presume that we know better than nature? That's a really interesting concept and that entire thing is completely relevant when it comes to the UPF conversation as well. But hopefully that answers our question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, I think there's almost two layers, like the precautionary principle. The risk is that the answer to everything is don't take any risks, because there might be risks that we don't know. But I think the big question, the first question to ask, or the big question to ask, is what is the risk if it goes wrong? Is it at a planetary scale?
Speaker 2:and you could argue that the two of the we've been tinkering with crops in different ways, of course, for millennia, but it doesn't really if a threat or a threat goes into the soy crop or corn and suddenly it starts, fate like it would be a global collapse in pretty soon because it's such a big, the risk is so big, it's a global risk and as soon as that's the case, it's a humanity risk because we're all consuming it in different ways through different things. Nobody eats it directly. Then you need to be very cautious, like panic if there's a potential global risk and take a lot of risk if it's only hurting you, potentially hurting you, etc. And so there's a great paper of Nassim Taleb and others and some other things I will put in the show notes just to trigger that way of thinking. And so how do you bring that to ultra-processed food and especially the ingredients or some of those ingredients in there? That sounds like a science experiment, but we should probably not do that with a lot of people or knowingly with a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you. Yeah, there's a huge point of comparison between the activation around the GMO issue in the early 2000s and what's happening now with ultra-processed food In North America. In the United States, we just banned food dye number three right, that just happened this month and that's a known carcinogen that has all sorts of complicated issues once it enters your body. And the American process the process of the FDA is called GRAS, so generally recognized as safe whereby the companies that are creating these novel inputs and ingredients, which mostly are not for the benefit of the food quality itself perhaps it's a marketing element of a bag that increases your hunger and desire to consume way too many calories of that ultra processed food, or something that is used to help grease and keep the machines that do the extrusion, to help keep them healthy not not the people, but to help keep the system healthy. And those companies are reporting oh yeah, it's, it's safe, it's no worries, and there's no federal oversight that keeps tons of ingredients from flooding the marketplace and then? So then, who's left to be the watchdog for that?
Speaker 1:We have a lot of great nonprofits that fill those gaps. We hope to be one of those, but also our retailers are now creating giant lists of banned ingredients that they don't allow in products in their stores and when we have this really high interest from the levels of consumer market research with consumers? From the levels of consumer market research with consumers, we just recently found that 81% of North American consumers are really concerned and want to understand why there are inputs and ingredients in our food system that are banned in other countries, but only 17% report that they are knowledgeable about that topic. So this is a real opportunity for us to think about helping to define, helping to bring more nuance to the conversation and educate consumers so that they can make better choices for themselves. Right us to think about helping to define, helping to bring more nuance to the conversation and educate consumers so that they can make better choices for themselves. Right Like? Diet-related disease is the number one cause of death worldwide. That's preventable. What opportunity do we have with food as this intervention?
Speaker 2:It's shocking. I remember, I think, robin O'Brien sharing the Kellogg's ingredient list in the US versus Europe, and it's very different. Yes, it shouldn't be, or there's no reason. There's a reason because many of the ingredients are illegal in other places but are like banned, and it's shocking to that extent. And but I can imagine you're not taking it lightly let's say, launching another certification, especially with the work you're doing with the Food Integrity Collective to how do you build that trust? So how are you approaching this UPF work differently than, for instance, you did GMO almost 20 years ago?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that something that we have been really attuned to and this is in part because of our living systems, work that we've been deep in now for the past four years is really thinking about not just what it is that we're creating right now in the system, but what the potential that has for impact long term. And so when we think about the intervention of a non-ultra-processed food verification, it's really tangible. Right, we are helping to bring some more nuance and clarity to what's happening, say, in the NOVA classification level four. Right, we're helping to provide a definition in our marketplace. But we also think of it as a real opportunity to and this is a premise that I know you read the white paper that was published under the Food Integrity Collective over the summer. But it also is an opportunity to engage eaters in the somatic experience of being alive and eating food that truly nourishes you and that nourishes the life that grew and grew around it and that might feel very meta.
Speaker 2:but we know, yeah, but still, but no, but it's, I'm partly joking, but not really.
Speaker 1:It is Okay. So how do you see this intervention on UPF relative to driving change at the farm level, like where we want to see what happens with true regeneration? I personally believe this is a huge opportunity, right? Because people have never reported higher instances of mental health issues, of brain fog, of not feeling well, and so much of that has to do with the industrial food that we're consuming. And 70% of what's on store shelves, at least in the US, is considered ultra-processed.
Speaker 1:And, yes, we live in a modern system and a modern world and it's important to have convenience. It's important for food access-wise, to make sure prices are at the right point so that people can eat right. But imagine a world where people had the ability to make choices that made them feel better. When you eat unprocessed foods, you have a better cognitive ability and capacity to engage with the world, to think more deeply about why you make those food choices and potentially use this as a scaffolding moment to think about all the other eight petals of that framework that we laid out. So we're curious about that premise and we don't know what will happen. Um, but we don't want to just stop here. We don't want to say this is the right intervention, we know it's right, and then we just go to sleep and certify products for the next 10 years. That's not our intention. We want to open up a conversation and a dialogue in the super market.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember from the book Ultra Processed People that the author was very skeptical of the impact it would have had. Like he went on a relatively strict non-ultra process or minimum ultra process, he cut away a lot of things that are on this list, let's say and I think it was a 30-day trial Of course I'm now doubting it and he did all the scans blood, but also brain etc. And there were fundamental changes to how his brain worked in 30 days after not taking and he was shocked and this is a doctor like there's not enough. I mean, he was shocked about the impact it had on his thinking, on his literally his brain was wired. Yeah, we can, and how can you make choices if you're like healthy choices, if you have brain fog and you're in a supermarket? Obviously it's going to be incredibly difficult.
Speaker 2:And it's going to be very interesting to see when more people get off a lot of this, either with a lot of the medicines that are on the market now, or and or with the certification, like how much more clarity we'll get, how much more poetry we'll get, how bunch more brain power we have to confront a lot of massive issues. We're in.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. It's not even at the microcosm. It's about our own ability to choose foods that continue to nourish us and nourish the planet, and making that link. But also look at the moment in time. We're in this planet and, like we as humans, have a possibility to contribute, to heal, to unite what's happening, and I know I'm being really lofty here, but if our basic cognitive function is not online because of what we're consuming, that's a problem.
Speaker 2:Have you made personal changes since diving deeper into ultra processed food world world? I've seen people that are relatively deep in the food space after reading a few of those books or after looking at some lists to like, still going through their covers and oh my god, this actually should have never been here. Have you had some of those revelations in the last year and a half too?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would think I think so.
Speaker 1:I think my favorite thing to do, though, is and I was talking about this with a colleague at a trade show recently is I call it the lunchbox test, because I have small children, right, and I know what it's like to be in like a working person running a household, and I really care, from my perspective, about what my children eat, for all the reasons we're talking about, and so it's like the lunchbox of what feels okay to put in my kids, my kids' lunches, and so looking at bread is a really fun one, and I could give examples of specific breads that I'm feeling more confident about now, but there are so many texturizers and conditioners and emulsifiers that go into that that just are not necessary and not needed, and so that's one that I've definitely toyed with, yeah, but it's also a really good motivator to think about what it is that you're cooking in general, and that's a privilege, right.
Speaker 1:We can't ignore the fact that foods of convenience are often highly processed, right, because they need to be shelf stable. They need to be traveling places, that where people need them and can get access to them. We're definitely curious about that piece of it, too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, we had a. It might be out when this is released, Maybe not. It depends always on our release schedule.
Speaker 2:We had a long conversation with Chef Dan Barber on a shelf stable and his premises of the CPG brand they're launching with Rose 7, is that if it's nutrient dense on the vegetable side it doesn't need all these additives and of course you have to process it well. Processing is not bad but you have to process it. But it doesn't need is premises. A lot of the vegetables taste really bad because they were really not healthy seeds and not healthy soil and needed a lot of things to even be still mushy at the end when you like, cooked vegetables etc are not the the most interesting thing. So that's a hypothesis we're going to explore, but it's a. It's an interesting like how do you use processing to even increase nutrient density and how do you? Of course we know the transformation, fermentation and all of those wonderful things, but what? What does processing look like when actually it's in service of life, instead of just batting it to death and hoping that it survives a year or two on a?
Speaker 1:supermatch Exactly. Not all processing is bad. A lot of processing is necessary, important for food safety, for unlocking nutrient potential, as you say, but when we do it blindly, when we shut down and just say, oh, this is the system, these are what the machines need in order to function, this is what the American palate wants, which is insane. We talked about, I think, you mentioned, comparing product formulations in the US versus the UK. Right, like, why do Doritos not all be colored by turmeric instead of all the weird chemical dyes? If you look at product comparisons, even between the US and Canada in terms of sugar content, how much sugar is considered palatable for Americans? It's just, it's insane. What we need to do is shift the way that we think about eating and think about what tastes good.
Speaker 1:I also want to make another point, too, that I think we talk a lot about the leaders for driving change in regenerative agriculture and we've been pretty involved in the Nutrient Density Alliance and thinking about how activating eater desire for higher nutrition per calorie in this piece of broccoli is really important. But when you think about it, it's like let's zoom out and right into this moment right now. It's like people just need to be eating more broccoli, right? There's not a general understanding, at least basic in the US, where there are these epidemics of obesity, of diabetes, of heart disease, preventable diet related disease?
Speaker 1:We just need to be focusing on what is real food. How do I reconnect to that food? And that's why I think part of this non-ultra processed intervention will be really powerful, because it's a stepping stone and it's not meeting people where they are at, but it's an invitation to come a little bit closer to their table, to their food, to their garden. Yeah, I was just talking about how you know where eaters are. In this moment, especially in the US, with these epidemics of obesity, of heart disease, of diabetes, all diet related, we can talk really beautifully about wanting to compare this beautifully nutrient-dense broccoli to this conventionally grown, non-nutrient dense broccoli, but really, when you come down to it, what we need to be doing is like having people eat more broccoli, right, and so the non-UPF intervention doesn't necessarily mean meeting people where they're at right, but it's an invitation.
Speaker 1:And it's an invitation to start on again, in that scaffolded way, to getting closer to your food and better understanding it, and I definitely believe in the power of nutrient density.
Speaker 2:I'm mostly thinking of flavor. If that broccoli that you're then eating isn't tasting great, you're probably not going to eat another Like. It's going to be not so interesting or enticing to keep eating broccoli If you're like.
Speaker 2:okay, I have to eat this broccoli, but it doesn't taste like anything, honestly. And so I think there is. I absolutely understand. We had Sam Cass on Ex-Chef of the White House. He was like, yeah, most people, we need to get to more vegetables, regardless of how they were grown, which I agree to. But then there's this other voice in my head of the chef saying yeah, but if it doesn't taste good, nobody's going to keep doing it if you don't like it. And yes, and I don't know if that's an answer, but I'm struggling with it because non-tasty carrots are just not going to fly with children or with anybody, because, like, why would you keep eating that? And probably that's because they were grown.
Speaker 1:Totally. That goes back to my lunchbox test, like I actually do want the regeneratively grown carrots for my daughter because I know she'll eat them. They do. They're sweet, they have crisp flavor. Yeah, I'm totally in agreement with you.
Speaker 2:There's a price piece obviously Accessibility let's not make this easier than it is not. Yes, but there might be that unification of flavor, nutrient density and the growing practices we would like. Of course, that would be the jackpot and hopefully we can hit a price point, either through processing or through other ways to make it accessible, shelf-stable, etc.
Speaker 2:Then I think we haven't seen that yet. I'm not saying it's there, but yeah, I think that should be part of the North Star. And until then, of course, eat more broccoli. It's better than no broccoli. And so where are you now with, like, how do you even start a certification like that? What are the steps in that? Where are you now? We're talking beginning of Feb 2025. What's the status at the moment?
Speaker 1:Definitely. I want to answer that question, and I also just want to say one other thing, a layer of nuance, because you're right, let's not just collapse this and make it simple Broccoli, eat more, whatever. But I do want to say, too, that we can take and this is a conversation that we have a lot with our stakeholders, especially our retailers is like we can take the most beautifully grown, nutrient-dense crop and process the heck out of it into something that's going to be palatable for the American palate, and then what are we doing in terms of that experience for the eater? How is that incentivizing a repurchase of this product other than the feel goods, right? If we're actually talking about what it feels like when that food is integrated into your body, what it feels like when you continue to consume that food. Are you addicted to it? There's just that disconnect, right?
Speaker 2:I think it takes a lot of different um it's eating culture thing that's going to be, which is fundamental. Not easy, but, yeah, absolutely the underlying. We're so disconnected from everything that we think it's food, right, yeah or food like substances, I think think is the correct scientific term, Exactly Okay.
Speaker 1:So you asked the question about where we are with launching this non-ultra-class verified program. We're really excited to be in the pilot phase right now. We know we're in the right place with the direction we're going, when a lot of brands and a lot of retailers are coming to us asking about it, and so we're putting together a group of 20 brands right now, a lot of old guard natural products industry brands and also some bigger and more conventionals as well who are interested in helping us refine the version one of this standard. And as the Nonjumo project is a third-party certification, so we're working in conjunction with our auditors, our technical administrators, to help us build this out, and that's going to happen over the course of the spring and summer and hopefully by fall we'll have products verified in store and you can start seeing them on the non-UPF verified seal.
Speaker 2:And do you already know the design? What comes after, or what comes next to or alongside the butterfly?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do. We have a bolt-on option as well, but there's also a new logo that's associated with the non-EPF verified. One thing that we're really again we're just coming back to this point right is that this is a starting point, and so what we want is for this to be linking human health my human health with the environmental, the environmental health, the health of the planet and the health of the communities that grew the food, and so you'll see that beautifully designed by our CMO on our logo.
Speaker 2:And so what should bring this to like? A number of questions we always like to ask bring this to the financial world investors that might be investing in some of these companies, that earlier ones that may be publicly listed as well. Let's say, we do this in. I'd like to ask the question. Let's say, we do this in front of a live audience in a theater, somewhere. Of course we had good food.
Speaker 2:We had a fascinating conversation on non-GMOs and certification and in service of life, et cetera. But also people forget what. If there's one thing that they will remember the investor crowd, either managing their own money or other people's money what would be that one thing? The one seed you would like to plant with people that maybe the next day at their desk they actually do something, or they at least remember and write it out in their notebook or take some action. What would be that one thing?
Speaker 1:I think that the highest outcome for us of launching another certification is to increase the capacity of eaters to want something more from their food system. And it does come back to how we nourish ourselves, how we feel when we eat, the less tangible qualities of creating and purchasing products to buy a meal or, excuse me, to make a meal, etc. And so I guess I just the biggest thing for us right now that we're focusing on is how do we just not stop at the food certification level Again, going back to that Band-Aid fix piece right? Food certifications fill a really important role in an industrial and really murky system. So how can we utilize our skill set as a consumer education organization, as a certifying body, to change the system and do something really different? So we don't want us to stop there. We don't want to create a different definition for non-UPF and make small incremental changes and how the industrial system is doing it. We want to, yeah, we want to use this to start something bigger.
Speaker 2:And what if we flip the question or the table? I don't know if that's a word, but at least have you on the other side, or have you on the side of investors? We always like to ask this question what if you are in charge of a billion dollars to be put to work, to be invested? It could be extremely long-term, could be shorter term. I'm not looking for exact amounts, of course we're not giving investment advice but I'm looking. Where would you prioritize? Where would be big buckets of your attention? In this case, quite significant?
Speaker 1:resources. Where would they go to? I never had that much money and I don't know what I would do with it, but I will. There's an anecdote Most people that's why we ask?
Speaker 2:Most people obviously haven't because. Why?
Speaker 1:What would you do, but?
Speaker 2:if resources are not an issue, what would you focus on in terms of big focus areas?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if I was investing in the CPG space, I think of an anecdote recently of one of the brands that's in our food integrity collective cohort and they have this they talk a lot about listening to the market and listening to their consumer and one of their biggest areas of growth right now is their simple, organic, organic, clean line, minimal ingredients. That is what is selling and I think continuing to listen in that way is really important. It's what we're trying to do by creating this non-UPF certification. But I think that people again inherently know that they want better, simpler, easier to digest whole foods and when they have products of convenience, cpgs in the store that they know that they can trust to do that's huge. If I had that money, those are the kind of brands that I would invest in Double down and beyond that.
Speaker 2:Would you focus on any land access, on, like in the full food and agriculture space? Obviously you can play with that kind of money. Would you do other research, potentially nutrient density measurement? What would would you if you could dream? What would you? What else would you focus on?
Speaker 1:I love all the stuff that's happening in the nutrient density space. We've been involved with the nutrient density alliance now since its founding and I think that is a place that we hope that we can scaffold leaders into to have a better understanding of what's going on. There's so much good work and research on nutritional dark matter and obviously all the work that Dan Kittredge is doing at the farm level and you mentioned flavor a couple of times too, right. Talk about either engagement and somatic experience. What are the ways that we can bring that forward as well, which we don't often think about? When we think about well, you know, packaged food, we think about that in a beautifully prepared meal oh my gosh, one day at Blue Hill with Dan Barber, right. But we don't necessarily think about that when we open a bag of chips that has three ingredients that might actually taste better than the Ruffles potato chip with all the things that go into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, flavor is such an understood and misunderstood concept. Obviously it's the reason why we eat to a certain extent and the reason we get tricked into a lot of things to keep eating. And, yeah, the buttons of addiction ultra-processed food plays very well, which is difficult to understand, I think, for people that are not addicted to it. But a big group of people, a big subset of humanity, is really triggered and just cannot like it's an addiction and just cannot put that back down or cannot. And it's yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyway, read the book ultra versus people or any of the books please, because it will shake, especially if you're in the food space and you think, yeah, let's just all choose a bit better, then we're fine, we get. It's seriously addictive for a big minority and potentially majority of of us, and yeah taking away your investment fund, unfortunately, I sorry, you had it for a short couple of minutes three, four I think but you do get the power to change one thing overnight in the food and agriculture space. What would that be?
Speaker 1:I want to answer that question and I just wanted to follow up again on something that you mentioned. You mentioned ultra-processed people by Chris Van Tolken. There's another really great book by Mark Schatzker called the End of Craving. He also wrote the Dorito Effect and we're going to have him as a guest on our podcast, the Future Kind podcast, which is part of Food Integrity. And one thing that I want to double down on.
Speaker 2:Please do, because we're going to have him on soon as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, good, okay, it's amazing, right? Because books like this are bringing us again into the collective consumer consciousness, which is really an important piece to tackle here.
Speaker 2:Don't underestimate books, people Come on yeah.
Speaker 1:But one of the things that he talks about relative to addiction and that I think is really important, when we're talking about eaters and not wanting to shame people for being addicted to these foods, like these companies are chemically engineering inputs that are making us want more. It's tricking our body into not feeling satiated or full, and so then we keep eating, and I think when we talk about the epidemic of obesity or any of the many other diet-related diseases, it's just really important to remember that this isn't something that is just about the individual fix. This is systemic, right. So what could we do with a market-based solution, like a certification that would actually allow us start um nudging industry in a different way, based on what we're purchasing?
Speaker 2:and just, and then we'll go to the magic wand. Actually, I know, but I want to double. It's very close to what I think the fossil fuel industry has done and done very successfully. Make it personal, it's your climate footprint, just Just calculate it, et cetera, et cetera. Right, and it is to a certain extent, and it is also the system that's responsible for 70 plus of the emissions, and we should definitely regulate the hell out of that, and we don't. And like the methane leakage left and right is just in, and anybody that lives close to an oil refinery can attest to some other emissions that are very harmful. Lives close to an oil refinery can attest to some other emissions that are very harmful.
Speaker 2:And so that trick of, yeah, but it's just, if you just don't eat the chips, that's also fine. You can't. There's just, there's whole departments of thousands of people that have engineered that bag so good that, like, how can you resist that? There's just no way an individual person is gonna do that and it's just very smart to put it. Of course, let's shame, let shame, let's do another diet book, let's do another, let's do which all don't work, by the way and but it's very nasty, interesting, and so we definitely need to elevate that conversation, like it needs to be regulated, and it needs to be regulated fast because we're just being addicted to stuff and you just cannot resist. There's no way. It's not going to be a personal. Maybe some of us very lucky. If you can, great, but the majority it's not going to happen anyway. Sorry, magic wand question what would you change?
Speaker 1:oh gosh, like how many years in the future?
Speaker 2:we've heard many things, from subsidies to global consciousness and anything in between, so feel free to take a wild swing at it.
Speaker 1:I think that the biggest risk to the planet and to all the issues that we are facing right now is the lack of individual capacity to see how they, as humans, can contribute to healing the planet, healing themselves and solving some of these global issues. And I think that food is a really amazing nodal intervention for that, and not only just thinking about connecting to each other and connecting to heritage and food, but also again to what we were talking about earlier how we feel, how food makes us feel, and using that to unlock our own ability to contribute to our communities and to society. And that's why we feel that this non-UPF intervention is really important and a good starting place for that.
Speaker 2:Fascinating. Yeah, thank you so much for obviously the work you do and for not being complacent or okay, we just launched, or even just continuing with the GMO work, which is fundamental, the non-GMO work and seeing other opportunities, but also stepping in there with a different mindset of another certification or another label or another, but taking that as a starting point, which I think is very refreshing. Big shout out to Lauren, of course, with the Renourishing Studio to bring a lot of those things not to life, but facilitate a lot of that. I could definitely see some of that influence in the white paper when I was reading it.
Speaker 2:And yeah, thank you for doing that and thank you for coming on here to share, and obviously I'm curious about the progress, the steps, the different directions and the journey this will take and also the bigger Integrity Project will take forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much for having the Food Integrity Collective represented here and being in dialogue. I really appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Thank you for listening all the way to the end. For show notes and links discussed, check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculturecom slash posts. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend and get in touch with us on social media, our website or via the Spotify app, and tell us what you liked most and give us a rating on Apple podcast or Spotify or your podcast player. That really, really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time.
