Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast features the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
367 Anthony James - Learning from the legends how to become a positive keystone species
A conversation with Anthony James, host of The RegenNarration podcast, a Prime Ministerial award winner for service to the international community and Honorary Research Fellow at UWA. He has had many legends at his microphone and joins us to share what he’s learned, what he sees, and what he thinks is coming next in regenerative food and agriculture.
The pioneers who spent decades developing innovative approaches to land stewardship won't be around forever, but they're actively passing their hard-earned wisdom to a new generation eager to accelerate positive change. Anthony shares how his own journey from business student to regeneration advocate parallels the transformative experiences many have when connecting deeply with the land.
More about this episode on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/anthony-james.
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In Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast show we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
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some of those legends. They're not going to be around forever, but there's a moment in time where they're ushering in next generations where I think huge leverage can be had and arguably just when we need it. I've had so many of these legends we talk about say, well, you think we were doing something. All right, you wait for the people coming down the track. I think the next generations are just going to take off because we just fumbled and stumbled and scrambled and scratched and clawed, but with the people coming in to support and now the knowledge they have just to start with, but then to realise that the cavalry has to arrive. Like they've got to have access, they've got to have tenure. There's that piece there about how do people come together and learn about each other in a way that you see each other's humanity, you can dissolve or resolve some conflict even, and move through it to enable the stuff that is otherwise staring us in the face. What if we backed more of that?
Speaker 2:This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return. Welcome to another episode Today. It's a very special one. Fellow podcaster of the Regeneration Narration. Did you get that? Did you get the pun Podcast? Welcome, anthony.
Speaker 1:Hello Koen. It's great to be with you, mate, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:And it's been a long time. No, not so. Hello, koen, it's great to be, let's do a collab, let's record something, as we both are traveling but also have, let's say, a setup with us, and so sorry for the makeshift background here and the makeshift background on your side as well. We're filming this as well. If you're happy to be on YouTube, welcome. And if you are on audio only, this is definitely an audio native podcast, let's say and we added video to that and we're not in an amazing agroforestry project somewhere. We're not on the land, we'll do that at some point, but meaning we're a few continents away from each other. You're not in Australia now, but you're in the US and North America.
Speaker 2:It might take a while before we could do this in person, so I didn't want to wait so long. So, welcome here and lovely to unpack. I want to start a bit with your story, knowing that we're going to go in all kinds of different directions and I don't know where, but we always start with an opening question, so let's do that here as well. It's a personal one how can you spend most of your waking hours thinking about regeneration and acting in that as well? You've traveled quite a few kilometers in the name of regeneration. But how come? How did that happen?
Speaker 1:I laugh to begin with. I've got no idea, how this happened.
Speaker 2:I mean, he was born with a microphone. Wow, I mean, that's the thing I sort of wasn't.
Speaker 1:I mean sure I was born with a microphone. Wow, I mean that's the thing I sort of wasn't. I mean sure I'd been. I was a muso in in the 90s I still am but I touring one like prioritized it but that's the only leg up. I had some familiarity with the hearing your voice back and and having a microphone in your face and recording you know and and that press the red button effect that it can have on a psyche, but that's it.
Speaker 1:I mean the bigger answer broader to the podcast is is a couple of decades in sustainable development, international development, like these words that get tossed at it, and I mean seeing the writing on the wall. There'd already been generations before us that were pointing it out that incumbent systems were overly extractive. The time of really good rewards for that extraction was diminishing as well. So it was starting to be just loss, a loss equation, the more we extracted from here, rather than some kind of sweet spot you might envisage, where we you know we have a certain degree of extractivity, perhaps for quality of life that keeps us in kinship with the whole on a flourishing planet, like that sweet spot that you know many argue we passed in the 70s somewhere. But even if you take that more broadly, we're clearly in a domain where it's it's patently obvious to all of us or to so many of us now and increasing numbers of us now so that had been building over 20 years expressly in the field, even as a musician before that, you know, and we'd do charity gigs for people here and there. And I mean you could even go back to younger days where I was.
Speaker 1:I was, um, a business graduate, graduate in university on scholarship, like I was supposed to go in and start on a mint at that time with your IBMs and your big banks and your big retailers and whatever. This was a new thing at the time. Early 90s business systems degree. I think it's still our biggest university, monash in Australia, and you know I'd been brought up to make as much money as possible. That was the name of the game.
Speaker 1:My dad had felt shafted by being a Christian brother till 26 and then sort of out on his butt when he felt it wasn't his path, without a penny to his name and all the shame that went with that, and had been a science star, as he would explain to me. All the brains in my time were led to science and I made nothing and with with that sort of uh imprimatur behind him, it was make as much money as you can. My options were merchant banker, doctor, because there was a Mercedes out outside. Our GPs know practice all the time, and those things. And so I end up in this degree, which I wasn't sure about anyway.
Speaker 1:I'd started to have a bit of doubts already about this path, but I thought, well, it's going to pay me, I'm going to get a drum kit, I'm going to get a car, I'm going to get a place to live on my own, like well, with people, but independent, and I'll see. And sure enough I didn't like it much. People, but independent and I'll see. And sure enough I didn't like it much. But the reason was because I hit the point where it was like well, what's the money for?
Speaker 2:if the purpose is money, not necessarily where it came from but where it was for, okay, why money?
Speaker 1:why market share like what's? What are we up? What are we really? I later sort of cottoned on to people like Alan Watts and terrific phrase. It's never left me. Why get so absorbed by symbols of wealth in money or clothes or other possessions or whatever?
Speaker 2:Cars.
Speaker 1:Cars I mean the classic, isn't it? That comes to mind too. Why get absorbed with the symbols of wealth as opposed to wealth itself? So you can trace it back to those things. And then the podcast comes along because I basically, through various roles in university, heading up briefly a community-based graduate school, trying to broach these things, but I had a focus, like an old mentor of mine, to be very public with this stuff. So for 10 years I ended up running pretty big sort of panel event, discussion things, town halls as we would call them in Australia really, and they ended up. They started 50 people and a couple of hecklers I recall to being two, three hundred people every time, at times standing room only type stuff. And the last one, as it turns out, was with Charlie Massey and the two brilliant folk out of Woolene Station in the West, david and Francis Pollock. That was one of these instances, three hundred people, standing room only, and I just thought I've got to get out to them now. It's not good enough to have an event. It wasn't like food was.
Speaker 2:Was it only the last one? It wasn't food and agriculture, or? Was it building up to that like good question how did? How did you get charles massey on stage? Like what was? It was an accident question?
Speaker 1:kuhn it. It was basically because the old mentor I mentioned he was a systems thinking legend in Australia. He ran postgraduate programs in systems thinking and practice practice importantly, and so my really my cutting my teeth in holistic thinking, systems thinking, how to get to the root of problems, was with him. And when Charlie Massey writes a book that was put in my hand with the instruction, Call it the Read Well Bill.
Speaker 1:What a book, what a book Takes systems thinking and metaphor. You know the whole way we conceptualize the world. To begin with, learn how to address a problem was in this book, connected to ag. So I was all ears. I had a quick read and was immediately on the phone to him and said would you please come down? I run these things, this is the next one, I'd love to do it with you. And he did. And then the festival we were doing it with brought across the couple from the West who I had started a podcast with them early days, although my first episode, I might say, was John Fullerton from the Capital Institute.
Speaker 1:So you can see, where we run together in some ways our overlap, but really it's ultimately trying to understand how the human presence in the world functions well, functions together well, in kinship with the whole. So it's not that I neglected agriculture to that point and food, but it came into stark light for me and did change me when I started to get out to their farms and stations and ranches rather than expecting them to come to the cities, and that's when the podcast really grew legs and that was, I mean, like you, I think no, that was sort of seven, eight years ago and do you remember visiting or stepping, setting foot I think is the term um, or maybe a horse or whatever, a helicopter, because scale in Australia is very different On one of those farms I don't know which one it was, where someone, because it's one thing hearing that on stage or reading it in a book.
Speaker 2:what is holistic thinking, holistic doing and regeneration? But words are words and letters in a book are letters. But then stepping onto the land and feeling, seeing, sensing, smelling, tasting, is very different. Do you remember that moment? I?
Speaker 1:never forget it, and, what's more is, again and again and again. Still, it happens. It's happened on this journey, though, so the podcast, in short terms, led us to North America, as you pointed out, and not only Central America, too, is where I I lived for a time. I went back, but now, with this lens and this machinery, um, a lot of these episodes are still to come. It's just been this flurry of incredible engagement, and I feel transformed time and time again through that mechanism. It's face-to-face with people and it's in landscape, and it's a great thing that you raise it so early, really, because I knew we'd talk about this. It's something I hear about again and again too. Hey, like, even there was this great instance.
Speaker 1:I was at the Regenerate Conference, the first one I've been able to attend, in November last year, run by Kavira and co out of Denver.
Speaker 1:It was this time, and there was a guy there from the White Buffalo Trust.
Speaker 1:What was his name? He's a legend, jesse Smith, maybe African-American bloke, who manages the program there, and he was in conversation with Ed Robertson, a terrific podcaster Mountain and Prairie podcast out of Colorado, a bit of a local star in the hood, and blessedly, I got the first question up when it hit the floor and I asked Jesse what has he found in all his time and experience in such an amazing place himself, and such an incredible life story has been the most significant in terms of really reaching people. And he said two things. One was story, so this, and I guess then the degree to which words can count if it's couched in story and done, you know, in a real way. And the other one was people being on the land, straight up, straight up, and that counted for not only, you know, punters or investors, but even the people themselves who were trying to do the work but getting with each other on the land. I think about it so much, koen, and it sounds like you have too, found it to be central.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely. I mean the disconnect we have with the land, with agriculture, with food production, with land management, forestry management. The land with agriculture, with food production, with land management, forestry management, landscape, etc. And it's so large that it's very difficult to connect with people. And, of course, we often talk about the role of the financial capital system, but it's very difficult to have somebody decide from a shiny office somewhere and it's going to go to a shiny car, and it's going to go to a shiny supermarket, it's going to go to a shiny home and tries to make the, the better choices, etc. Etc. But unless you, you walk the land digitally and spend time, um, with stewards and it sounds so logical and so far away at the same time, it's very interesting. I always try to to understand for people like when was that? Not that moment? If it was one moment, but when did you understand? Okay, we coming back to that point you made when did you realize like we could be beneficial keystone species?
Speaker 2:I think that's the like in a landscape scene with a landscape um manager or farmer or steward of the land maybe you're a steward yourself like when did you realize? Wow, this is, there's a positive role and it's not just a negative slightly less negative, slightly less dirty, slightly less input heavy, slightly less destructive. And that notion of understanding that it's possible, I think, is a very traditional notion from, of course, indigenous tribes everywhere, but we've sort of lost it and I think it's very difficult. Like the financial sector, I mean a city center at the moment there's many shiny offices down the road. It seems so far from them, but bringing them to the land, to the right place, in the right context, where where that clicks, can be life-changing maybe they need, then, a set of something for themselves, which is okay, but it would be nice if they use their role in the system they're in to guide the system towards um, putting some, some more, um, yeah, some more money to work, because we desperately need it and and it's that, but it's yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:Um, it's always my advice anybody wants to learn go and spend time on farms, don't be annoying, ask a lot of questions and listen very carefully. And definitely don't come with the hat of I know what technology can do, automation or etc. Etc. And that's that's not the right approach. And many people have done wolfing, like working on on organic farms. Many have done permaculture design class. Many have done the right type of volunteering work because it's hard work, it's not easy, but we need to do it and to understand, because otherwise we only talk about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really love your phrase, beneficial keystone species. I guess I mean to get to what it was or what it is that continually hits me. But I've heard of others too, right, including people who were sceptical at a distance. You know they might have read some of the counter arguments in a paper or something, or just how hard it can be and been dubious about it, but have been utterly transformed when they've had a visceral sense of it. And that's certainly what it was for me. It was blown away by what's possible and that you know in Charles Massey's terms in the book, once you kick in, get back above that threshold of ecological function, how it actually can be quite fast. You know theardies in wa, for example, who, by the way, after 30 years have become an overnight success with the west australian of the year award this year I saw there's something too, about the changing times, but also about some of the yards these people have put in right and where some of the support could yet go.
Speaker 1:They've just put that in.
Speaker 1:You know, if you want to rack up the in-kind R&D and labor and whatever it'd be substantial, let's say so. Yeah, when it comes to whatever the rest of us can contribute, perhaps people like you and me with story, perhaps, yeah, investors with money, it's time to do it and some of those legends you know they're not going to be around forever, but there's a moment in time where they're ushering in next generations where I think huge leverage can be had and arguably just when we need it. But yeah, I was blown away by what I was seeing, feeling, spelling, all of that, and so the results, but also the causes, in a sense right, their journeys, the I mean again, charlie Massey said in his book, didn't he 60% of the people that he talked to who were doing this stuff, who had transformed landscape in this way and had got it happening quick after decades of pioneering work? It was trauma at the heart of it, of some kind, whether it be health or fire or flood or debt. My goodness, you know this enormous stress, the suicides in communities still.
Speaker 1:I mean this is we almost need to have a minute of silence, kun, when you know this stuff, to just take that in, the ones who have managed to come through have done extraordinary things, do extraordinary things. They, they shouldn't I don't want to, you know, proselytize what if, what if they weren't left alone, or relatively alone, to do that or prosecuted or looked at funny or weird.
Speaker 2:The SLM at the beginning was stupid land management. The children of the farmers weren't invited for soccer practice. This goes in a lot of different levels. Obviously Some things are worse than others, but the pioneers have definitely been burned quite a bit, and not only their own midnight oil, is it their own midnight oil? But now we're in an interesting moment of time because many are still around. Like we're in a time of many, from Wendell Berry to Alan Savory, to many of the farmers, to many.
Speaker 2:Like this is very interesting when you think of movement building. Like you're saying, the next generation is coming in, like the children of Charles Massey are stepping in and just a few names people know. But also many other places the first, second generation, organic are stepping in, the biodynamic people. Like this is a moment in time and with a huge shift in technology which makes a lot of things visible that we knew, but still it's nice to see if the person does. But yeah, there's a window. There's a window that's surprisingly small, um to to get behind a lot of uh, and you're seeing that in in australia. Like you, the people you have followed have been getting recognition of late. That hasn't been there in the last 10, 20 years right, exactly, exactly, which does emphasize the point.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm finding it coming up everywhere, though, like so this is, it's still marginal, you and I know, uh, yet it's coming up everywhere. So there is no. And I have, I've pushed myself, I've sort of tested this impression because I didn't want to, you know, keep the rose colored glasses on just because I meet all the good people. You know that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:But everybody in my bubble is yeah, exactly, but no, I have.
Speaker 1:I mean coming across the States in this particular election period. Right, it is coming up everywhere, it's true, a different understanding of our place in the world, a much more kinship-oriented understanding of our place in the world and wanting better options and all this sort of stuff, including with the election here in the US. I heard that so much from Trump voters or RFK fans who voted Trump in turn, the complexities of it. I've still got plenty to share on that front from here, but I've sort of from about a year out. I was saying the cavalry's got to arrive now.
Speaker 1:The legends are yeah not going to be around forever, even a bit tired, it might be fair to say, still charging on, but, you know, to their detriment in some ways.
Speaker 1:It's time for the rest of us to really turn up, and when it is such an incredible opportunity, not just to see those external results but to feel the internal hum of life whatever you want to call it Some people would refer to it as the divine you could just say it's purpose. It's purpose, it's the feeling when you have joined something that actually does make a massive, beautiful impact, and, you know, to the point of investment many of my guests have been of the ilk of, you know, in trust structures or the like that are working with people who want to actually pass their land back to commons or to First Nations, with the ultimate understanding, which we all sort of acknowledge in principle, that we can't own the earth or you can't own nature, you can't own air. Like what is that? This system is commoditizing everything and I think ultimately, when we follow the trail, don't we? We end up at this.
Speaker 2:And there are people Land ownership. If you think about it sounds ridiculous. Exactly.
Speaker 1:But then what do you do when we've come so far down?
Speaker 2:Or money ownership what's that? Or money ownership, what's that? Or money ownership or money yeah, period.
Speaker 1:What do you do then, when we've invested?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we need an off-ramp. We cannot just say, oh it sounds ridiculous, so we should, no, but yeah, we've created this all together and even if we wave magic wand question to that change tomorrow morning might happen probably doesn't.
Speaker 2:So let's create at least some optionality, if it doesn't happen and create off-ramps for people to get out of that land speculation ownership structure. We've had many guests on that. Not enough, because there's actually a lot more happening now than it got to a few years ago. But still many are trapped in high land prices, speculation, very tricky, you can't borrow enough from the bank to buy the land and you're squeezed into an extractive system to pay back the bank. And.
Speaker 2:But there are movements happening on the trust side, on the donation side, on much lower land prices if you put it in a certain structure with the understanding it's going to be farmed in a certain way or with a certain outcome. We see organic farmers in in germany donating their land for a much lower price because they know that it's going to be farmed by by five families after because the price, the pressure of the land price is gone and they get a nice pension and a nice retirement and they get honored, but their work is not going to be sold to you. A next and a nice retirement and they get honored, but their work is not going to be sold to a next project developer that's going to do whatever, et cetera, and small, small examples. But it's needed to show that that sort of gridlock of land ownership and prices is possible to unlock a bit at least.
Speaker 1:Well then you've got to think about. I mean, two things really again have hit me and in a way that is so. I mean again minutes on stuff. It's the reality of communities, farmers but not just farmers like LA who can't get insurance. You know, northern California insurers are leaving, but, as one person said to me though, who sort of saw the writing on the wall from a while back, the casinos are leaving town.
Speaker 1:Like it's like when you construct a system of speculation like that and then the tower builds right with all the things you need to tack on to it to make it work, and those things start to fail. And in the words of it, that northern california community, in the words of one of the conservative christian folk there in that community, who, when they, when they had to come together as a community to decide what to do, he, he sort of famously now there, said, um, we've only got each other now and we're our own insurance, and we do that by being a community and regenerating the land and rehydrating it. That was the big thing. Right In the face of fire. There are literally instances where, you know, beaver habitat didn't burn in some of these extreme fires in Northern California.
Speaker 1:Just extraordinary images, but it's reaching people like that, in the face of that, the edges crumbling away from that old artifice, but you only or and just think of how land access is for the next generations Like, essentially I don't want to be too harsh, but essentially I don't want to be too harsh, but it's just been, I'll be as nice as possible. Certain words do occur to me, but I'm not going to use them here, because everyone was doing what they thought was right at the time, right, and the system was built such that this is what you're supposed to do and all that sort of stuff. But what does it mean when we've essentially any generation to this point has claimed it all effectively because the prices are too steep. Unless you're in that pipeline to inherit something, you're out and that's it. It's like the ultimate enclosures they seem through to fruition.
Speaker 1:That's not tenable. It's not tenable, it's not right. And it again cuts off our nose to spite our faces because the next generations are ready to. I mean, I've had so many of these legends we talk about say, well, you think we were doing something, all right, you wait for the people coming down the track. And I think it was uh.
Speaker 1:Rowan reed in west, at a conference in western australia in 2023, said, um, he's an agroforestry legend in South East Australia.
Speaker 1:He said I think the next generations are just going to take off because we just sort of fumbled and stumbled and scrambled and scratched and clawed, but with the people coming in to support and now the knowledge they have just to start with, but then to realise that the cavalry has to arrive like they've got to have access. They have just to start with but to, but then to realize that the cavalry has to arrive like they've got to have access, they've got to have tenure. There are these structures coming on. There are ways we can do it, just need more people to come in. Well, I don't want to say just to come in and back to where we started our conversation. Come in and get to know these people in their places, feel that spark and then pick the place and the form that's right for you, because there's so many leverage points and amazing things going on. You can really take a peek at what lights you up as someone who wants to support.
Speaker 2:And do you see that happening, that people with experience elsewhere like it's not just young people coming out of college or out of high school, or I'm actually not a fan of necessarily have to finish official education?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we could talk about that, not just young people.
Speaker 2:Right on.
Speaker 1:It's a whole different topic.
Speaker 2:We might go there but that's not a teacher joke, let's see. But for people that have I'm particularly talking about people with experience in building things it might be building houses, but building organizations non-profit, for-profits, I think is one of the strongest organizational firms we have is a company, is a limited partnership or steward-owned. I mean, of course there are many nuances we have now or many structures actually that serve way better, but let's say a company that wasn't there before. I see many now and I don't know if you see the same when you're travelers that have experience elsewhere, maybe have done an interesting exit, maybe they have a bit of time, a year or two, or maybe they don't really well and they come on the investor side. But let's say experience with builders that come into the space and they will start building things may not necessarily farms, farms, maybe they build a little piece of paradise, which is great. They can build technology, tree nurseries, uh, brands that buy things, whatever.
Speaker 2:We and we need way more, but it seems to be a shift that people start to show up for, to be around like sort of the, the ecosystem around the pioneering farmers and and we need to completely redesign our food and ag and fiber economy. Of course it's going to take a lot of work. We can use some extra hands. But do you see that as well with people 30-year-old, 40-year-olds, 50-year-olds with experience? They're like food and ag and sort of bitten by the soil bug. Maybe that's a better way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, the answer is yes, in spades, and I think, about various ways they've come to the table too, like some through conservation, but then they've come to ag because they're seeing the overlaps, and that's, that's again, you know, to talk about what's transformed me and my understanding and and now my relationship with the rest of my country and and farmers that I never had anything to do with, really through the appreciation of what they're pulling off, in that way that that divide, along with so many others, can be well, I'll say healed, I'll say mended, and yes, there are people like I think of excuse me, I think of Jim Philipson with the Rendier Trust you know these are some of the podcast stories.
Speaker 1:You know these are some of the podcast stories who doesn't just support philanthropically but supports with governance and in a very listening kind of a way. Right, you know not. Okay, I'm your governance guy here, stand aside. You know, not in that sort of a way. And now he's working with families in terms of succession. You know those thorny issues of succession which overlap with some of the things we're talking about, because it's like how do families have secure tenure with their places if and when they're putting it into trust scenarios? So that's one instance I think of. I mean, I think of some of the cohorts that are not only coming on, like you said, not just the young, but I think of First Nations. I think of what I've learned a lot about here the families of former slaves, but even other migrant families Asian-Americans, hispanic-americans who have regenerative lineages going back for ages. You know that they are, they have held on to them in many instances, or they're coming back to them and and forming their own structures with the support, in many instances, of those who, yeah, have the experience in doing it.
Speaker 1:I think of sustainable table here in Australia who are, who have formed a way to have philanthropists and other investors come to the table, not just individually, and not individually having to ask the question where is my support best fitting? But they can go to a place that's done. The yards of here are your options. They literally have a map of Australia dotted with all these different kinds of people doing stuff. Here are your options. But all have a map of Australia dotted with all these different kinds of people doing stuff. Here are your options. But all the more we'll help you do that connect, piece the listen and learn. And you won't have to do that by yourself either. You can if you want. Which?
Speaker 1:is way better Way better, and the friendships and the relationships and… and the comfort that you're doing the right thing.
Speaker 2:Because if you do this by yourself, the chance actually with many investors if you just look at the for-profit investment side, or grand side as well it's very easy not to do anything. Just not to do it because you seem to be the only one. And why would you? But if you do a cohort style, then it's almost more important than the content is that you're doing it together with others and not the peer pressure piece, but just feeling that you're not the only crazy one in the room, which helps.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, well said. I mean I laugh because, again, there's so many instances of where that is proving to be true. I mean, even you talk about Nicole Masters, for example. In the course she's running now, she pivoted to this education piece, which is a big part of the thing we should talk about too. Right is train to train, train the trainers and and in a way where some of these exceptional people they're already exceptional, they're already stars of region, who, many of whom have been on the my podcast and and probably yours too who are doing this program and being transformed all over again and I but I think it's as much for that.
Speaker 1:It's the structure. Nicole and others are doing it too, and I've done it in the past and but I'm inclined to do it again now, seeing all this is is it's being together. To your point, it's being together. That is half the thing. So sure, nicole's, nicole's, her curatorial and and instinctual input and, you know, expert input to a degree, but it's the structure and the conditions you set up on land. So it's bookended by being on land together. Then you've got online stuff On land.
Speaker 2:Together is where just magic happens and the wrong question here. I'm going to ask it anyway how do we scale that like? How do we or replicate, probably better words, replicate, because we need all people that manage wealth and all people that make policy decisions and to reconnect to the land, preferably together, all farmers, obviously as well, and land stewards and foresters, et cetera. Like what's? It's an impossible question. I still want to ask it what do you feel ways and scenarios and pathways towards replicating? I mean, the medical is not to visit. You have full maps of regional farms and many of tours, like most of these, are relatively open doors, which is great. Still, there's a disconnect.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is a great question, it's a virtual reality.
Speaker 1:It's a great question. What I've heard a lot, and it makes sense to me, is to scale out, not up. So there's that distinction which I think you're alluding to anyway and how you caught yourself on the word, and in that there are so many instances of people like the Haggerty's who have been pitching a processing distribution centre that would double as a education centre on the edge of Perth, so people don't have to go to their farm, they just have to go to the edge of Perth and they can get this experience and this connection. But also it's a distribution point, a retail point as well, and hasn't been able to get the support for it. So I know there are a lot of instances. Again, this comes….
Speaker 2:Just for background. What are the Hickories? Just for people that haven't listened to the episodes and haven't followed you. Good one, yeah.
Speaker 1:So they are a family who has got to be managing upwards of 60,000 acres Small. I don't know how they do it to be managing upwards of 60,000 acres Small.
Speaker 2:I don't know how they do it.
Speaker 1:So one family has done this just progressively acquire, and from almost nothing because they didn't inherit anything, progressively acquiring clapped out farms once they were being left, sold and done with. Ostensibly there's so much derelict infrastructure that's not even usable anymore, the houses to ruin, all the more because now cyclones are getting that far south for the first time and finishing them off. But so they've been acquiring this land and, like I said, over the decades found the methodologies. Over the decades, found the methodologies and the skill set and pioneered some machinery and and natural inputs, biological inputs through the big rigs, like putting worm juice through the big spray rigs, like extraordinary innovation to to restore productivity to these lands at times now within a couple of years, and biodiversity at the same time. Over 60,000 acres of productive land doing all sorts of grains and sheep.
Speaker 1:And you know the punchline around their story too is the cause is the how they've done it. It's a sensing of land that is well, I would say next level in one respect. But you know, in some ways it's just restoring old levels of human instinct and connection, and that's a massive part levels of human instinct and connection, and that's a massive part of the story. I'm finding the senses we've left on the table, the human senses we've left on the table that when they're picked up, is just so uplifting to see it and then to start to experience yourself so uplifting. So that's them. Now, the missing pieces right. All this stuff still. Stuff still goes into, I mean, aside from some local supply chains, which is very cool and going nuts, like a local bakery in north perth, for example, miller and baker. But the bigger piece of why, oh, and they've got some international stuff with their wool right, there's incredible premium market stuff.
Speaker 1:They're famous in italy but still most of their grains go into the collective bins in Australia with no premium and no distinction. You wouldn't even know what you're eating. So there's the and you talk about it. Often, right, it's the supply chain piece, but sometimes it's bog. Standard processing and distribution Not that hard, just needs a bit, not even much capital in a lot of instances for a lot of impact. So that's just one example. I hear a lot of those sorts of things. But there's another piece to the story too, kuhan, which I think, from what I see, it's slower in coming on, and that is the story piece. I have heard for years pretty much the entire time I've been doing this that the story piece is vital if we're going to have different narratives emerge, understandings across some kind of scale, a political constituency, ultimately, that would back this stuff in more, let alone a funding one.
Speaker 2:Demands this thing, yeah.
Speaker 1:I've heard from the legends who said from the get-go thanks for coming to my farm. Your work's more important than mine, which of course I couldn't come at. How does that make you?
Speaker 2:feel Ridiculous. How does that make you feel yeah?
Speaker 1:I still can't come at. But I took stock at the same time, like why are they telling me this? It's because they're out there, marginalised all the more, with all the abandoned, you know, the farmers that have left, already feeling doubly marginal, because the people over the fence might, you know, feel a bit threatened.
Speaker 1:It's messy, doubly marginal because the people over the fence might, you know, feel a bit threatened. It's messy, whatever, whatever's going on for them. You know, I say that with ultimate compassion. Um, you know, I was, as I've been, as ignorant as the worst of us. I'll say that straight up. Uh, so yeah, yeah, when, when you don't see what you don't see, um, and then when you, when it's right in front of your face, you still don't see beautiful documentary roots are Roots so Deep on the grazing side?
Speaker 2:And why do neighbor switches or not? Switches are interested or never. Even the question like. And Peter Bick asking like, do you see what's happening on the other side of the fence? Yeah, I see the animals very healthy and see the grass up to their chest. And are you curious? Yeah, I'm also very curious why didn't you ever ask I didn't want to put my nose into things that are not mine, or like like it's almost courtesy and curiosity, correct.
Speaker 2:It's not. It's not not wanting to, it's not. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with, yeah, a lot of other social and would it help to sit on a porch and talk about numbers of biodiversity and financial numbers, and in many cases it's like having that human connection. And then I think he finds us at the end of the first documentary and I'm going to give away something Like have you ever been on the farm with your neighbor?
Speaker 2:He said no, it's been 25 years. I mean they go hunting and never that piece of okay, I mean that's just grazing in Mississippi, et cetera. But I think it's very similar. It's nothing to do with. Of course there's some fear of weeds that might jump and all of those. But I think after 25 years it's clear that that's not the case. But it's more how do you invite? Because many of the Bioneers are a bit weird. They are by definition out there. In general, they're not the easiest people all the time they have to be, otherwise they would never do this. And it's like the next group, like not the early adopters, but like what's the? How do you connect with that that they are not going to put worm poo in their big rigs? Like how do you make it more palatable for?
Speaker 2:them is probably a big question.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love what you just said. This is the punchline to me. This is the punchline to me. It's that there are often, very often all the best reasons in the world why this is still marginal and and at times, that that can beg of belief for those who have created new stories for themselves. This is what I want to say about story. It's like sure it's. On the one hand it's it's sharing the stories and getting them out. But part of why I called the regeneration regeneration was not just for sharing the stories of regeneration. It was the stories we live by, the narratives we have so deep within us that it would be discourteous to approach the neighbor about that, that it, right down to something, can be staring you in the face and you won't see it.
Speaker 1:I've experienced this. I was a very heavily depressed late teen and I look back in retrospect how obvious it was to everybody else what I should do, which in my case, was just get to the coast, get to the water as a starting point was the thing, or maybe even go home. Perhaps was the bigger thing. Accidentally, fortuitously, I ended up back in Perth and I was a long way after that degree in Monash, feeling depressed about not liking that and what am I going to do? And I hate where I live and this is getting pretty dark to being taken back to Perth on a whim and a piece of luck, which was where I always felt was home but had forgotten it had been so long I'd forgotten that connection. Most people around me wouldn't have even thought of Perth as my home because I'd been in Melbourne for so long. Going back there turn the lights on and maybe that's a return to country piece that you know, you'll hear a lot from First Nations why that matters. Or maybe it was just being by the ocean. Whatever, it was obvious I should have done that but I couldn't see it.
Speaker 1:There are so many ways that this plays out for people where it can be really obvious to others what can help ourselves, let alone the whole. But you can't see it because of the stories we're playing out, that we've inherited, we've come from. There might even be intergenerational stuff that we're learning more about which just says the listening piece, the compassion piece, the compassion, peace, the, the reaching out peace, the coming together when you're ready, peace, um, and, and then the backing in the would be facilitators of doing that, like whether it's. I mean Nicole Masters wants a center to operate her courses out off in the Valley and near Yellowstone. I mean there's another instance you could back that project in. But I'm talking about even even people like you and me or others that would do podcasts or video or films or whatever. There's so many filmmakers I know who are just in the mines because they they can't earn a quid doing this and they're good. There's so many ways that we can back in the change of narrative and I don't want to say even change the narrative, because that makes it sound like we're going to change narrative on people like the emergence of narrative present an alternative yeah, yeah utter narratives
Speaker 1:and listen to people, to what is happening for them, like that guy over the fence in that film. Beautiful moment to find out no evangelising, no convincing. Find out what matters to people and how you can help them. And if we were all doing that, I mean I've seen enormous change on the back of that, even politically in Australia right now, with the independence movement coming in and others who are cottoning on to that, really getting in touch with the grassroots. It's politicians saying tell me about you, I'm going to give you a bonus, you know, $200 if you vote for me at this election. That sort of thing, the power of listening and changing, is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2:And that almost regen, regenerative mindset shift maybe it's not the right word, but like emergence, have you ever seen it with a farmer, like someone who has been very regen, let's say, without that mindset shift, or is it like it is a given it has to go together?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it has to go together. This is the thing like.
Speaker 2:What comes first? Well, this is the thing isn't it Exactly?
Speaker 1:Is it an accident or a health scare or whatever, commonly? But does it have to be? I mean, I've had that question for a lot of years and no, it doesn't, no years. And no, it doesn't. No, it doesn't. Um, but I think we're going to encounter plenty of trauma anyway. So let's just assume those windows are going to open up or and need to be there for each other, um, but you know, rebecca solnit's written so much about the disasters bringing out the best in us, so so let that happen. And because, yeah, what I've seen it does. We're in a situation where the western cultural mind was one of separation from the rest of nature, from superstition, from theocracy, like a lot of, again, a lot of bloody good reasons and a lot of reasons. I'm happy to have grown up in it. Um, but we've missed a trick.
Speaker 1:We missed a trick which went yeah exactly it's like we need to stitch the fabric of the of the planet and our, our innate kinship and our innate nature as giving, caring, cooperative beings, because the narrative that went along with the Enlightenment was that we didn't even need each other anymore, and just as well, because we're all selfish.
Speaker 2:Separation of each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but we're learning a lot more about that that those stories are hard to let go. So this is a change in narrative. So, yes, I found it does at least require some kind of as happened for me trauma and luck and then just following the lead. So does it need people to have been? Have wholest bowlest got to enlightenment of some other description?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, I mean more like I've seen farmers on the region journey, either become or maybe they were already very philosophical, very looking at the emergence like really changing their relationship with the world as well, obviously because otherwise you cannot farm differently, and I was just wondering if you've ever met a farmer that was super regen without meditation or something like that. And I don't think they're there. Email me if you know them.
Speaker 2:Of course, when you go to speak to an investor it might be different, because we and I work with a lot of impact investors and luckily, there you bring, start bringing your full self more, but it's at the end of the day you're sort of still judged by that final number the dollar or euro or yen or whatever amount and and like, looked up, like frowned upon if you bring more than other returns and it's starting to change because we see the cracks. But I can imagine if you're a very philosophical farmer that just fuels the land and you're trying to put a pitch deck together for an investor to put a processing plant together, for instance. That might be language issues, just to say the least, and we need to bridge that somehow because we need that money and we need a philosophical piece because otherwise we wouldn't have the farmer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've seen that. I have seen that too and uh, that's why I said before you know for investors and and other folk who could support in various ways. Get to know the people so you can pick, you feel the right relationship emerge partly, you know, you feel the kinship and the draw into the right place and the right circumstances and if it doesn't work out, leave with some grace, because that's okay too. You've tried and you've learned.
Speaker 2:That's an avoidable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, I think of some others, yeah, I think of some other people who are working to try to bridge this and they talk of legacy and they talk of, you know, we're not going to be around forever, what will your life have stood for? And I've heard of others who have gone into finance situations, conferences even, and said this, you know, utterly intimidated, but talked the human story and they've been the highlight of the conference. So I'm also seeing time and time again, increasingly and I think that's probably part of what you've seen in terms of it starting to shift is there is an extent to which, um, if we speak to each, if we connect as humans, even in those otherwise dry spaces, let's say, let's say I have an example I'm going to show you in a second.
Speaker 2:Well, it can resonate Increasingly.
Speaker 1:it's resonating.
Speaker 2:It can or it can really.
Speaker 1:There we go.
Speaker 2:We had a soil health conference full of soil scientists and we were there to bring some contrast and quite a significant investor in the space, soil scientists and we were there to bring some contrast and contrast, quite a significant investor in this space and read a poem about soil on stage. You know you are if you're listening. Thank you again for doing that. I think half the room like leaned in and was like almost emotional, like the amount of people that came up afterwards saying I didn't know, I would live the day to see this happening. And some others were like in shock and probably like why are we not discussing nematodes at the moment? And which is fine as well.
Speaker 2:But it was because it takes a broad discussion and emotion and all of the things, because our argument was the rest of the world is waking up to not the rest of the rest of the Western world is waking up and the finance world is waking up to regeneration and agriculture and food. And they will come to science practically for answers and you cannot just answer always. It depends, because they're going to ask is this a good investment or not? Is this better than the other one? What do I have to measure for biodiversity? What do I have to measure? How can I improve regeneration and give me tools, give me answers, give me things. I'm willing to pay for it. But you cannot just say sorry, but it depends, wait for the paper in 10 years. And so we brought a bit of contrast there, which was very interesting and hilarious and fucking sad, but it it did resonate with other people and it did not resonate with a lot of people to say maybe now, like weeks later, it's still fermentating somewhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, that's right, but we need that you planted a seed. We need that. You planted a seed which may be barren on a lot of land still, but I don't know. I think if you talk about critical mass and where we might be, perhaps we're not even that far away from a critical mass in this time.
Speaker 2:How much do you need? 10, 15, 20% for tipping points? What's the science?
Speaker 1:So because it's springing up everywhere, it doesn't make sense, especially with the health stuff now. Well, exactly, yes, it's partly where I was going with this, but you think about if you reached half the audience in a really moving way, wow, Better than all the audience in a nominal way.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Well, wow, better than all the audience in a nominal way, exactly Well said yeah. And then I do think about people I had. As you know, we both didn't. We had Dan Kittredge on recently because he's embarking on a next phase, so so he's got this again. A very relatively small amount of money would would expedite his amazing work enormously. And he's just saying you know, it's not come yet. If it comes, we'll go quicker, if it doesn't, we'll still go, but it could go quicker. But yet I had a podcast listener say wow, I never knew his journey that led him to this.
Speaker 1:So he's the kind of guy that could stand up in that soil conference and utterly talk the numbers and instrumental mechanisms to reflect extraordinary regeneration and differentiate and get premiums and all the sort of stuff it beckons and even easy access for for eaters to, to be able to get that information and make decisions and all that um and, and his path to that was, i'll'll say, a form of enlightenment. A form of enlightenment through vast travels and deep philosophical personal exploration. Does everybody need to hear his story to come on? No, but it's what took him there.
Speaker 1:And I find that extremely interesting. So I'm looking, then, at not just where he is, but how did he get there? As a person who wants to be part of setting up future generations in the best way possible, planetary-wise and not just human-wise then I'm listening to the whole, even if you just want to listen to the conclusion, for now it's compelling. But the bit, the broader story, I think again it starts to shift the underlying stories and, yeah, poetry is a great way to do that too, and and and, let's just face it, taking gambles like in that instance, taking a punt. I'm going to put this out there right now.
Speaker 2:See what happens I honestly didn't know she'm going to put this out there right now. See what happens. I honestly didn't know she was going to do it, but just for a leg break. Might have been a prep a prep, a thing I missed in the prep but absolutely, absolutely relevant and very, very effective and very strong. And you lean in when I mentioned health. What are you seeing there in the states? Of course we're in a absolute global health crisis, that we're starting to see the signs and the numbers and crippling effects and all of that which we've seen for quite a while. But somehow it seems like the last 18 months, more in your face or in everybody's face, with ultra-positive people coming out, which, of course, was research from Brazil, but with an Oxford doc I mean, he said this himself Chris Suddenly became very famous in the UK, europe I think US as well Like there seems to be a movement, rfk Ozempic. Like we seem to be in an interesting health perfect storm. What do you sense in Australia and in your travels in the health side?
Speaker 1:of things Absolutely Back that up. It's, and in more ways than one, right it's like. I mean, it's obviously it's health of land to start with, and then those connections health of land, health of animals, health of humans, all that sort of stuff, microbiome, I mean extraordinary research, and really just recent it's psychological health, emotional health and epigenetics, the intergenerational aspect to that that we're also cottoning on to scientifically, let alone the rest that it may not be your shit that's keeping you back. You know you may not be the cause of it. Let's look a bit deeper in both ways, like what comes off the lamb, what are you ingesting and what have you, you know, ingested intergenerationally? And again, the support we can give people and we can give the people who are supporting people on that front. But but yeah, I expressly in the public domain and even politically, absolutely the health thing. For years I've heard this that it's the narrative that reaches people the most because it's personal and and immediate.
Speaker 2:You are, whoever you are, you're going to feel better after a better meal? There's no question. Immediate.
Speaker 1:Or shitty. Well, exactly, exactly. And I think of the farmers. We talk about their health, you know, oh my God. So to see those healthy turnarounds in the farmers themselves, going from what I know to be an unbelievably stress-filled, like classic rat on a treadmill I'm mixing metaphors badly there, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Hamster wheel, whatever that's right. Small animals, rodents.
Speaker 1:So health does really reach people, it seems. And then it's very interesting right now in the States because they have led the way, if that's the right way to put it in. At best a chemical experiment on a population. No, and the health I mean? It's visibly diabolical, no secret to anybody. But poor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but still, if you don't go, I think most people from outside the US and as now, I don't think many people will travel to the US for the time being won't see it. But if you travel like you've done and you're doing, it's really in your face.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really is, and you feel for them.
Speaker 2:And this can't be, of course. No, that's the point. It's like our especially nicely in ultra processed people in the book and in the research around it, like it's.
Speaker 2:It's addictive like there's no blame like this is there. There are 500 people in the biggest food companies in the world. We all know the names, or probably more whole departments that are there just to make sure. You keep shoveling Pringles and it's the crack of the Pringle, it's the density. Everything is designed for you to never stop. Of course, you cannot push back, and for people that objectively think you have an issue as well, I don't have an issue with that, but I'm in a minority in that sense and it's easy to say, oh yeah, if you just don't eat it.
Speaker 2:No, you can't Like, it's designed to keep stuffing yourself, yes, and so everything that is designed to say yeah, but it's irresponsible. If you just move a bit more and put a little bit less in your mouth, it's like it's an equation blah, blah, no, it's addiction.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it's designed to make you addicted and it works really well. Well, this is partly why what I was confronted with in my in my degree, my business systems degree, I literally chose a marketing elective and my project was to get more market share as a hypothetical fast food chain.
Speaker 2:And you know, that was a moment.
Speaker 1:It was like why would I do this to people? Um, why would I try and win that? So you do have a moment in time. I mean even our boy, because this is the sort of education I wish I got that you know he's getting and um, and more people are more people are, thankfully. But my boy spots up the ingredients list on things Like that's. He's always reading ingredients list out because they're they're diabolical reading by and large and like read 40. The hell is read 40? It's not even trying to disguise the fact.
Speaker 2:And you ask Chet Gpt, and then you're going to get a very big warning like that, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so you've got a situation now, obviously with Trump and this is part of the complexity of this whole situation obviously with Trump in.
Speaker 1:This is part of the complexity of this whole situation with RFK, who seems to be adopting some Trump-isms like just say the reality you want, before it exists and it'll somehow manifest. Like, apparently companies have agreed to a voluntary code to get all these additives out by the end of next year, and the journal I follow on this food fix, she's saying but I know they haven't. So I asked him that question. I know it's false, but it was just telling me this, excuse me.
Speaker 1:So there are all those complexities politically, but you've got this extraordinary, incredibly necessary shift that might happen quite fast, where that proceeds, where this chemical experiment starts to wind back and when you know what, we know who could argue with that? But then you've got an overall regime that's taking investment out of the land and away from farmers and away from trust funds, and where does this end up? I've got no idea, but it's indicative of the complexity. And to come back to your question in terms of what can we do? Health is a big domain that can be universally appealing and universally approachable and and a and a connector between us, that's. You know more than climate, for example.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, no, and I saw something I think today, after finding like somebody arguing quite strongly, we should use pollution as well, like pollution is something people know, somebody people relate with. On the negative, side and and like.
Speaker 2:Of course, co2 is not a pollutant too much of, it's not good, but but in terms of like, in terms of words we choose, in narratives, in terms of terms we put on things, um, it's very important to choose something that resonates and there's a deep marketing research. Probably pollution in terms of chemical pollution on the land, in the food, et cetera, is very strongly Like you hear, pollution like I don't want to swim there, I don't want to eat that it's polluted and so. But we need to use the marketing people and the marketing brains and the marketing skills that have got us partly into this mess, not blaming them they got very good budgets from some of the companies but we need to use that smart to resonate with people, because if we keep saying soil, microbiome, probably we're not going to get very far.
Speaker 2:Or soil carbon is very important or water cycle restoration. I'm very interested in landscape scale regeneration, how to restore water cycles, small water cycles, etc. Oh my god, that's complex to convene. We've done two series on that. We've, I think, put the best experts and still we're going to do many more episodes. We're looking into doing another series because, together with health, I think the two main levers we have but then I talked to funders and investors and I realized nobody understood what it means.
Speaker 2:Like, ah, it's about irrigation. I'm like, no, it's not also important. But it's not. This is about bringing back rain. And you think you see them like, okay, he lost his mind. Like what are you talking about?
Speaker 2:And so there is another like I think, with food as medicine or, let's say, food can either cure you or kill you, pollution, but like we're starting to get to the word, like nutrient density is probably not ideal, but anyway, we're starting to figure out okay. Then there's a whole landscape scale regeneration to bring back to restore water cycles, and rehydrating landscapes is probably better use. There we're not there yet. I think it feels like we're still way off from okay. How do we make this palatable for an investor, for a farmer, for a policymaker, for an insurance company? Would not be bad. So there, I'm still looking for how to shape it or frame it, because I notice that I'm not reaching the people in a way that makes sense, like oh yeah, interesting, and then don't really grasp what landscape scale regeneration, done well, could actually do this is so interesting because I also think what would it mean I mean, the research you're talking about if done well, in the lens I'm bringing to, it would be the listening piece.
Speaker 1:Right, you find out what, what appeals to people, what they're after. But if marketing is done in a more extractive way, right, tell me what you know so I can get what I want, then I'm not interested in that and I don't think that's going to get us where we want to go. So I think of a few things. I think, yeah, the literal, the market researchers who would perhaps investigate those topics that would be very interesting. Or academic researchers, obviously, who would very interesting around language, because language reflects worldview, worldview, and there's a whole thing there. That's what Charlie wrote about too. Okay, so, yes, but I also think about the story piece again, like, but listening, let's find out what is making people tick, like I'm. I'm so fascinated.
Speaker 1:What's made people vote a particular way right now? What's made people feel like, even now, with so much disturbance, they like what Trump's doing or not. Who voted for him? Because I still don't hear him. I hear the, the claptrap of noise around decisions and actions at that level, and that obviously is important to a degree. There's so much Media is another topic, isn't it? There's so much crap, I'll say it, but it's important obviously to look at that level.
Speaker 1:But I'm just not hearing from the people. I want to know what the people who voted him there think. What motivates them? What do they want to see? And so commonly and I've seen this play out, and even politically in Australia in recent times I've seen it play out in a way that enlivens participation in the world, enlivens community, and then, with that understanding and that uplift, we can do extraordinary things. Extraordinary things have been done, are being done, and I mean extraordinary. Like our podcasts are a litany of. You're kidding me, that happened. You know you could just scope some of the best of stories out of just our two, let alone others, john Kemp's podcast, let alone others, and you would see this time and time again. So, yeah, that listening piece for all. We're wondering what our leverage points are. Let's find out by connecting with people we've not connected with before. That's a bit of an ethos. I reckon that can hold us in good stead.
Speaker 2:And what would you not advise? Because we're not giving investment advice, but what would be your message Maybe it's the same actually to the investment world, the finance world If you could plant a seed in their minds and their hearts on regeneration from all the journeys you've seen, what would that be?
Speaker 1:In a way, I almost have the same answer as you had for Judy Schwartz when she interviewed you about you, and it was. I mean we're in the position where we have spoken to hundreds of people. I mean, for every episode I've put out, there've been a dozen other conversations With all walks right. People have done extraordinary things, and the people who I'm talking about before I want to know about just communities I want to know about, and the people who I'm talking about before that I want to know about just communities I want to know about.
Speaker 1:So the seed is don't feel like you have to reinvent the wheel. Have a listen to people. Have a listen to people who've listened to people. Go and meet who appeals to you and the places that appeal to you or that are your place, and make it real. Make it real and then you can. You can choose. There's so much to choose from, whether it's on water or waste. We haven't even talked about food waste. I mean half of it basically is is just dumb. With just waste I mean almost half, probably because it doesn't didn't really taste good in the front.
Speaker 2:Now, I'm joking well it has something to do with the quality, maybe just exactly and just waste. I mean almost half, probably because it didn't really taste good in the Ferdinand jerky.
Speaker 1:Well.
Speaker 2:It has something to do with the quality, maybe this is full circle, exactly.
Speaker 1:And then the distribution systems and the supply chain, of course, that we talk about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but perishability is connected to growth and seed quality and not to paraphrase to Barbara, but I think there's a lot there as well. I mean, of course, we waste way too much and anything that's just a double-weighing to reduce. But there is a piece, I think, on processing and there is a piece on conserving and there is a piece on quality and holding up, Although the McBurger or McDonald's was a one-year experiment and somebody left it outside and it was still fine. Anyway, there's a piece, I think, in terms of how long things stay. Well, of course there's a thing on nutrient density and quality. Does it reduce quickly after harvesting and certain fruits that you process in a certain way? Anyway, but waste, we hardly talk about it on the pod, actually thinking about it now.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, Vaclav Smil's book, for all the critique I have to take a note there.
Speaker 1:Extraordinary on the waste front. I mean his work, what's it called? I was sent it, I can't remember. Well, we've tried, but it hasn't aligned yet, just being on the road. But extraordinary on waste, up with him. Well, we've tried, but hasn't aligned yet, just being on the road. But, um, extraordinary on waste, and for him that's that's the biggest game. The biggest game in town is is waste, um, and there's a good argument for it. But then we could talk about, you know, animals, um, redefining what a pest is, uh, getting apex predators back in, like all these transformative narratives and impacts. There's so much you could jump on just by having a look at the people who've had a look and then connecting yourself directly. I have a personal emphasis.
Speaker 2:Well, the window is still open.
Speaker 1:Let's say what's that?
Speaker 2:Sorry, but like, while that window of time where the legends sounds wrong, but the people that have definitely had to look um and and stand on the shoulders are still around and yeah, tap into that because go and listen, yeah I'm.
Speaker 1:I'm even for myself, I'm acutely aware of that. Um. I met alan savory for the first time just after that conference in november. Um he's 90, still going, 89, almost 90, still going strong.
Speaker 2:He booked coming out this year um there was somebody last week saying I'm in the space because of that talk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally exactly new farmer, a new generation on the land. Portugal, large scale super two restaurants hotel, like a full survey. Wow, Large scale investor behind it. And he said that talk coming out of the tech scene in Berlin, that was my. You got it. Okay. Person listening to this is going to recognize who it is, but that was my trigger. He said it on stage. I can say I did say, but he said it on stage. I can say but he said it on stage, I saw it and that changed everything. I need to become a pro.
Speaker 1:Well, this is my other point. It's to reiterate the story piece and the media.
Speaker 2:Let's say but the critique he got on the Ted Quark.
Speaker 1:But nonetheless, it's almost like and I've heard this many times too from some of the legends I learned at some stage. I heard from Terry McCosker. I learned eventually just talk to the people who want to listen. It's the half of people in that soil conference.
Speaker 2:Just don't worry about the rest.
Speaker 1:Let them come in their own time or not. Whatever, we're not out to convince people. If we're not out to convince people, we're not out to convince people. Just be you and see who you reach and who can argue the legacy now among us, I mean, who can argue the legacy? And I think, in time, and for the people that are feeling strung out, younger generations going what the hell do I do, even if I want in, how do I get in and where's the world going now? And so much collapsed narrative around as well, which I don't think helps, to be honest, sort of paralyzes, I think yeah, I mean there's nuance to that.
Speaker 1:Some things are collapsing, but some things are regenerating. Where does it go?
Speaker 2:Who knows.
Speaker 1:But yeah, the story piece that is very often now, I think, recognised as important narrative, shift, listening, sharing, it's not being backed as much as it could be. Yeah, no. A little torch, that way I'd shine.
Speaker 2:But I know there's a lever there. A lever there in the huge impact some documentaries had, or the Ted talk of Alan Savory and kiss the ground and six inches of soil and biggest little farm with all its complexities around it, et cetera. But the amount of people that got clicked on it in an airplane or somewhere else and suddenly got like a life-changing experience in an hour and a half or less Isn't this, but the trouble that Six Inches and others went through.
Speaker 2:We backed them with crowdfunding to get that funded as well For funders, and this is not an investment I mean it's an investment in another way, but the stories are. The media side is greatly underfunded because when you're doom scrolling on the toilet you're mostly not going to get regenerative content to light up your day and see other paths. You're going to see very other algorithms at work, but in the health piece it's sort of changing. I feel Like with Eddie Abue you have some influencers now.
Speaker 2:That's a good point influencers now that are really yeah and get a lot of hate as well, but start pushing back on that narrative. But it's yeah, let's say the positive is not the word. But the regenerative media side is definitely neglected, even though we have a few shining examples that do really well and inspired a lot of people. We need all the languages, all all the cultures. We need tens of those, tens of thousands probably.
Speaker 1:Right on, exactly.
Speaker 2:Can't I just have two podcasts in English? That's right, exactly, I've got to cut that.
Speaker 1:Exactly, I had a brilliant filmmaker on the podcast who ends up winning the short film award at the Santa Barbara International Film Festival, joel Caldwell. I had him on because he'd made a film for patagonia that ended up winning that award, called the green buffalo outstanding short film 20 minute thing, and because we met then. He was so turned on by the podcast and this particular story of buffalo restoration and a particular guy doing it out of montana that he said gotta be the next film. I'd love that to be the next film. I wonder if we could get some support for that. And the short of it is, to date, no, um and sure. Maybe it's a shit idea, you know, but I don't think so. He sort of knows, he knows what he's doing and uh, and and I've had so many listeners talk to me about that particular episode too it was extraordinary, is extraordinary. Yeah, we could go on. I think there's so much scope. Why would gun filmmakers be doing I mean, he's not, but like almost wedding films, you know just really trying to get by.
Speaker 2:All respect to the bride and groom, but that's not what people like that should be doing.
Speaker 1:Love is central. I'm right there.
Speaker 2:But yeah, no, no, but it's, and we're having some conversations now around that, like people from the film industry, from the TV industry, from the distribution side are starting to reach out and say we haven't really talked about it off podcast, but starting to, where do we, um, where where are we going? Where is the region content that we could spread and how do we make sure money flows back to the makers and becomes sort of a flywheel and and there's some very successful youtube channels obviously, um, but it's limiting like it's. It's just especially like in the the market garden side, of course, on the education side, but that's a limited group. We need to reach way more. It's a very good point that we're thinking about Ideas. Definitely get in touch.
Speaker 1:That's cool. Well, you know what I think about. I think about I mean, you almost said the words there I think about producers on land and producers of media, producers of the story. Both producers are vital in this space and you know it's been hard enough to get the backing for the people on the land, but we need both. We need both.
Speaker 2:Shout out to the funders and a strong request to show up more. And a question we love to ask as well, and it's just a flippant, but I probably answered it If you had a billion dollars and you had to put it to work, what would you do? And this could be long-term if you listen to what you know it could be. It's definitely not investment advice, but I'm curious about priorities like what would be the big buckets you would um approach first and then, of course, what would be some other fun?
Speaker 1:things you would do with that, yeah, yeah, well, it sort of is. It sort of does go back to the last uh bit of our conversation how, in terms of how you can get access to some of the brilliant stories through these places and um, and then connect with those people and but also the organization's doing it right. So I mentioned sustainable table and various trusts. You know there's agrarian trust and and you interviewed christina from farmers land trust, I think it's called, isn't it as well?
Speaker 1:just awesome, great episode and young people in that instance doing it, a Bionutrient Food Association, like Dan's work. There's so many organizations and individuals, like Hagerty Family, who are already onto it in terms of trying to bridge this question, approach them, connect through them, don't need to recreate the wheel, don't need to feel alone. All that. And First Australians Capital is another one. So First Nations financing bodies doing it for themselves in a different way of governance as well, more like, they would say, their heritage of governance, which we could learn plenty from. So there's all that and, yeah, with a particular light shone on some of the education and media stuff, I think maybe I'd add, like the town halls aspect.
Speaker 1:You know, I had an old vision that people would be every town hall in Australia would be filled with this, with this, this sort of conversation, the conversations I was organizing. You know those events. It wouldn't just be once every six months in a capital city when I could get one up, but that anyone anywhere could organize, like TEDx became, in a way, I suppose. But but this would be list the listening piece, not just a presenting piece, interactive listening, and you'd curate it as such. But yeah, every town hall this would be so normalised to have these sorts of conversations and when it's normalised, then the neighbour doesn't have to worry about being rude by asking over the fence, or much less vindictive if that's.
Speaker 1:You know, as the case may be, that we can. You know. You take the evangelism out of it. You take that. I've seen too. That I don't think is helping. It's funny. There's kernels of truth in everyone's perspective, isn't there? Really, we have parts of the truth each and when I hear some of the backlash to Regan and that there's evangelism and such self-righteousness and piousness, and I've seen it. I've seen it too, so I know what they're reacting to. You know, part of me still wants to say, yeah, but don't get hooked on that. And as soon as I want to say to the other guys, don't get hooked on the worst of the other stuff, but yeah, try to find a way to be together, I guess is the punchline for me the human presence in the world, which is the ultimate task. No, find a way to be together. Because I think for me, kuhan, that there's so much good stuff now, why isn't it just taking off naturally?
Speaker 1:And it is because of the barriers we have within and between us. So, if that's true, and so a lot more of my focus in the podcast naturally I didn't plan it, just it's evolved this way over the last perhaps two years now one year here, one year back home has been who is finding ways to have communities come together and decide stuff. That's amazing and it's happening, it's happening. So there are other people and I know some of these people who wanted to train the trainers on that too, right, right. So there are more people who can facilitate those processes with people.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about next economy in australia, um, about listening jeff goble here in in new mexico actually, where I am currently just up the road that judy schwartz wrote about in reindeer chronicles, like I remember he's. He's got a funded spec for a train the trainers thing in the process of doing the work that he's had discussions that have progressed a fair way down the line with some people, but not come through yet, not going to be around forever either. Oh, I can say I mean he's only 70, but I know he won't mind me saying that um, these are the sorts of moments I think we're talking about. But there's that piece there about how do people come together and learn about each other in a way that you see each other's humanity, you can dissolve or resolve some conflict even, and move through it to enable the stuff that is otherwise staring us in the face. What if we backed more of that?
Speaker 2:I think it's a perfect way to wrap up. I have other questions, other yarns, other ways we can go, but I want to keep that for another time, actually, and I want to thank you so much for, obviously, the work you do coming on here and, of course, being one of the giving space to many, many, many voices in our space and in the general space, and for coming on here to discuss Without a Plan and just hit record and see where we are now.
Speaker 1:The best way, kellen, no thanks for having me mate. It's power to you. It's been great to be in touch with you over the journey in various ways, just with the occasional producer. What the hell are you doing on this front? Um, and now to actually speak is terrific. Uh, I loved your chat with john kemp at groundswell. That was podcast out that was fun, yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, let's see who we are this year on the fire, so chat right on yep, um, so I think, uh, no.
Speaker 1:So basically, it's a great pleasure to meet you and to speak and amazing, it's hats off to you for what you're accomplishing and facilitating and I love how particularly you've done it in a way that connects right around the world. I've certainly got my eye on doing that more, but because I move, I actually go on location.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, which is amazing, yeah, I know. No, it's limiting and amazing at the same time. We can do this through technology, yeah, but whenever we can, we try to do it on the land. There will be quite a few episodes coming up with farmers walking the land, which, of course, will get philosophical, because that's what happened and that's absolutely fine, or that's actually the point. But, yeah, being on the road and being in places and in connection with places where regeneration is happening is the absolute best. We cannot always do that, otherwise we would limit at least this podcast which we run one a week, sometimes two, sometimes 75 a year. We would be on the road constantly, which is tricky in the current situation.
Speaker 1:But we do it as much as possible. Right on, mate. That's exactly what I mean the fact that you leverage that way to get right around the world. That is so infrequently done, too could do more of that too. So, yeah, hats off to you. What are you 360 something episodes in? It's great to be part of it. Thanks, mate. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening all the way to the end. For show notes and links discussed, check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculturecom slash posts. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend and get in touch with us on social media, our website or via the Spotify app, and tell us what you liked most and give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your podcast player. That really really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time.
