Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast features the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
376 Sheila Darmos - Why Greece is leading the regenerative agriculture movement and what the world can learn
A conversation with Sheila Darmos, co-founder of the Southern Lights, based in the southern Peloponnese, Greece with the mission is to spread knowledge, techniques, and the mindset for regenerative practices across all domains of human activity. Sheila is also a co-founding farmer of the European Alliance for Regenerative Agriculture (EARA) and serves as an EU Soil Mission Ambassador.
A question we get very often is: which place or country is leading the regenerative movement? It’s obviously a very complex question to answer, but after talking to Sheila, our answer might be Greece. Having battled numerous economic and non- economic crises, it seems that those who have stayed don’t have much to lose. There is a strong back-to-the-land movement, well-organized local organizations helping farmers and land stewards’ transition, and people who want to return to the land more easily.
Perhaps the fact that 10% of the workforce is still active in agriculture helps, along with Greece’s long history of farming without fully going down the super-mechanized, industrial, extractive path. The rural-urban divide is very real and it’s not easy at all, but maybe farming and food are the way to break down those barriers.
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In Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast show we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
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wow, it must be very difficult what you're doing, and I'm actually. No, it's actually not so. I think people think I would face a lot of obstacles, but actually it's exactly the contrary. People think I'm faced with a wall of resistance or something like this, with everything I do, but actually really the opposite is the case, like people are happily waiting for our help or our input or to do things together. We haven't faced resistance from a single person, actually, and I think this tells a lot about the willingness and the readiness of people to change.
Speaker 1:Things look quite good. People want this change. A lot of farmers contact us to transition and sometimes on these conferences where there are a lot of researchers and policymakers, they're like oh my God, how can we make these farmers change the way where they farm? How can we convince them to want to change? I'm like you don't have to convince them. They already want, but actually there are so many laws that don't allow them to do circular regenerative practices, so maybe you should check out the laws you have in place and how hindersome they are actually to transitioning.
Speaker 2:This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return. Welcome to another episode Today with the co-founder of Southern Lights, a non-profit based in the south of the Pelennipes in Greece on a beautiful agroforestry farm. Their mission is to spread knowledge, techniques and a mindset for regenerative practices in all domains of human activity. She's also the co-founding farmer of the European Alliance for Regenerative Agriculture, also known as EARA, and an EU's mission ambassador. Welcome, sheila.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thanks so much for having me, cohen.
Speaker 2:And I mean there's a lot in your CV. I don't think you can call it a farmer's world Like, let's say, the different project, your project portfolio you're working on. We're going to unpack here, but we always love to start with a personal question and ask why do you spend most of your waking hours? Because I think you are not a new entry in the agriculture world, because you grew up on a farm or at least you have a history in farming, but definitely a re-entry into the farming space, and I'm always so curious why people spend most of their waking hours on something so complex actually so complicated and complex at the same time to change the food system and ag system, as there are so many other easier career paths out there. So what happened? What made you come back or come to food and agriculture?
Speaker 1:That's such a good question. I wouldn't say it was by choice. It started like really step by step and just listening to my environment, what people asked from me or what I saw where I can contribute. People asked from me or what I saw where I can contribute, and so I think basically I just followed that. I mean, I was thrown out of my life in Germany very suddenly and landed in very rural Greece, just to give you an understanding of how rural it is. So in my region the population density is 23 people per square kilometer, while paris, for example, it's 5 000 people.
Speaker 2:so yeah, that's a whole big difference that's and I mean I think people underestimate I'm already interrupting a minute one, sorry people that like how difficult or challenging and interesting that is as well to go from a very urban, fast to a certain extent, but very stimulating in terms of other people, environment. I'm just assuming that wasn't the case with the 23 people per square kilometer to not replicate that. But I think in many places you see people trying to pull more people to their farm or to their projects etc. To have more people around them that are, as our common friend Matteo Mazzola likes to say, I think not the monoculture countryside, because also socially, the countryside has been depopulated in most places, not everywhere where, if you're lucky maybe not, but in many places it's been. Yeah, people are leaving, some people are staying, probably not willingly, would also like to go to big city and that gives a certain energy. That's, yeah, not not really stimulating for somebody that comes from germany and like, okay, let's do stuff yeah, actually it.
Speaker 1:I think for me it's like still a big personal research field, also having a background in sociology. I'm still trying to understand what's going on here, trying to understand the dynamics, um, and I think most people cannot really, uh, understand all the facets of the implications that this low population density has on on whatever we're talking about, um, and that's why, also, one of my messages is try to do change in your lift environment, because this is the environment you intrinsically understand, and not try to do change on the other side of the world, because come here and then we can talk. So, yeah, for me it was always fascinating.
Speaker 1:I think my background in sociology helped me through this very challenging situation. I would say like my curiosity helped me. I would say like my curiosity helped me, yeah, but also, I would say, being so rooted in this region, through mostly my family, that I have 17 cousins. Imagine, we're a huge family, not just here but also in Australia and the US. We have lots of people all over the place and my wish to support our community and our family was family, was just okay, tell me how can I help?
Speaker 2:and so, yeah, that brought me ultimately ultimately back to agriculture, and in the beginning I'm like me, agriculture, me in the region, act, space that I didn't even know it took me a while to get used to this idea but I just followed the what beyond, let's say organic came to to you or you were exposed to that which in some cases, just like your original organic movement, I think is very close to region. Then there's the industrial organic movement that is not so close, um, mainly mainly swapping out uh chemicals for other semi-chemicals or other biologicals. So there's sort of different streams in organic as well and for some it seems a very sensitive subject. Now regen has. It gets a lot of attention for good greenwashing reasons or bad greenwashing reasons and good reasons, etc. At least it seems to.
Speaker 2:But, it's also building on a momentum of a wave that organic has and had, Like it is sort of the field, like the next phase, but that's a sensitive subject. But to re-answer the question, when were you, if you remember, exposed to the theme of regeneration and the journey, not just oh, I have an organic certification or I don't?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So actually it started from my own observations, also on the farm, that I felt, okay, it's like one of the first organic farms in Greece. We're now like 30 years organic. Now we're 40 years organic and I felt it's not enough. Like I was walking in the farm and I felt it could be better. Like what is going on here, why is it not a thriving, abundant ecosystem? Why is it not like in the forest? Why is the soil not as rich as in the forest? So I try to just understand what's going on, and I think it was essentially through permaculture that I got into this mindset of, okay, how can we be of service and how can we regenerate? How can we be of service and how can we regenerate? And I think this is when it ultimately captured me and I'm like, yeah, this sounds like exactly what I would love to do and there is a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for me, this was a bit my entry point. And then I heard about syntropic farming. I'm like, wait, that's what's happening in my farm and I didn't know there's a term for it. So, you know, suddenly I felt like, wow, there is a crowd for me out there that I match with, because you know when you're in rural Greece. It's very weird when you speak about these kind of things. People are like what, but you should clean your field? You grow oranges. Yeah, it's super messy, and then you just feel weird. But I'm used to feeling weird because if your dad is one of the first organic farmers, it's just a feeling you get used to. Yeah, you thought let's make it, it's like my advantage.
Speaker 2:Finally, organic is sort of recognizing you, like let's go a few steps weirder Down down, yeah, down, or up the stairs, depending on how you look at it. But I want to double click on that role of humans and purpose. How is that? I mean, I see, okay, there are many different ways we can go with this. How do you see that showing up? Do you see that clicking with people as well?
Speaker 2:I think, in essence, that's what regeneration gives us, and we talked about it on the show before as well. Like what do we take our role of positive keystone species or not? Like that's there. We've been very on the negative side lately, lately, saying last 12 000, few thousand, few hundreds, few decades, depending on your accountability um, and there is a role and that gives a lot of hope as well, of course, coming from a very, very small minority of land stewards and farmers who are against all odds, are doing that. How, how is that landing in in greece, which has been farmed for many, many millennia? Um, in terms of of, how do you see that? Because you're specifically saying your activities, the mindset for regenerative practices in all domains of human activity, which is a very specific sentence. I'm referring to partly this, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think maybe also the Greek crowd is quite specific with all that we went through the last 15 years, like since I arrived, actually, with all the crisis and lots of people leaving and more people leaving. For me, it also means we had a very selective, uh immigration, um, and I see that the people that are still here on one side, they have not so much to lose anymore, so they're like, yeah, okay, no career, no, I don't know materialistic luxuries, okay, we actually don't even need this. So let's, let's focus on the real stuff now, and I see that this is what gets people actually essentially around regenerative agriculture. It's this, um, this idea that it's about something more uh than than just farming food, as if this was not already a big thing if this was not already difficult enough, let's add a few layers to it.
Speaker 1:Farming, people mindsets, society change yeah, and actually I think the the Greek people in general, I see that there is a lot this hospitality which in the end, it means, and the generosity it means caring for each other. So in the end, it gives you like a logic framework that also tells you it makes sense on a global scale and there's a global community acknowledging that this makes sense and that this is our role as human beings. So I think, in the end, people find belonging there, whereas a lot of people lost belonging in this paradigm of individualism and more and more and disconnection and, yeah, for whatever career, we move to the other side of the planet. This doesn't really speak to many people anymore. Um, so the regenerative movement it's really something that, yeah, it captures people and people feel at home there and I can see the spark in their eye when they realize what it is essentially about and how has that led to?
Speaker 2:like a re-migration or return, let's say, of people as well, to Greece or to the countryside? I mean, you can return to Greece and be stuck in a city Like have you seen that as well? Like on the countryside in general to attract?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do see it and especially these people contact us, because we started this initiative Regenerative Farming Greece in 2021 to especially focus on the farming sector and we do see that a lot of people that want to move back to Greece. They contact us to support them. How can they regenerate the land that maybe belonged to their family and now they want to take it back because they don't see a point anymore in living in the city and working for unknown people to them? So, yeah, it makes people move back. At the same time, we see that it's very challenging for people to go this step Like. You really need to be a pioneer species for people to go this step.
Speaker 2:Like you really need to be a pioneer species. Staying in the centropic yeah.
Speaker 1:Exactly. It helped me a lot to make sense of my role in this whole thing. So, yeah, and many people are not such a pioneer species, so, having such supportive structures in place such as networks, we started eight regenerative farming networks all over Greece. We have a network of eco-projects in Greece which I heard from some people it is a reason for them to choose Greece over another country where the movement is not so much organized and connected yet, because they do feel they need an already kind of established community to do actually this big stuff I'm laughing because it's so easy to to slip into the syntropic metaphors like okay, the pioneering species created the microclimate for the second layer to come up with the other, that the next group behind, and it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:That's how life is organized, and so it's but, it's. It's just, we're going to report, probably going to refer to that a few times in this conversation. And so do you see that sort of nothing against non-pioneering, like the non-pioneering people starting to find enough support to make the jump which is a massive jump, usually leaving behind well-established careers and things elsewhere in the world or in the country nicely paid off apartments maybe, like there's a lot of you're burning quite a bit of ships and it's.
Speaker 2:Do you see people that start to show up that are not the pioneering PCs but like the next group behind it, because with only the pioneering PCs we're going to be lost in the woods very quickly, like, do you see them?
Speaker 1:starting to, or is it?
Speaker 2:still too early for that increase specifically in your context.
Speaker 1:No, I see it, yeah, and I see that especially what they need is a community like this, emotional support, because all the rest they much more easily have figured it out. Like very often they don't do a very sudden transition, but they still keep working for jobs, partly at least, so they have a financially more stable income.
Speaker 2:Not like the pioneers that just burnt everything and went yeah, got in a van.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly yeah. So what we currently see as one challenge is to create bridges of understanding even literally speaking about language and the type of language we use between more urban people that speak very often very politically correct that we need to create bridges of understanding with more local people that speak in a much more simpler way. But sometimes people freak out. What did he just say? This is super racist.
Speaker 1:Then we're like, no, no, he's a super good person, like yeah, we need to, but but this I see across all movements that we need to to create ways to understand each other because, yeah, like often, the finance investors movement doesn't understand the, the reason we, the reason we're doing this whole podcast, is to be that bridge, because it's like the language even if you, yeah, the language is just so different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I heard lately a great term which is called field building, which a big part of it is to create this shared language and shared understanding. But it also does need a lot of compassion and a lot of will and leaving judgment aside and not having this tendency of wanting to put people in negative boxes eventually. So in the end, we all need to learn again to live together in the same rurality. Let's say again to live together in the same rurality. Let's say and yeah, one other note to this, because we spoke about population density and the kinds of mindsets that are around. It's actually very challenging, even logistically, to know who is in your region. Like in the beginning, when I lived here, I thought there is nobody that thinks like me in the region. And then you meet the first person and you're like, wait, if there is this person, what if there are more people? And what if there are more people? How will I find them?
Speaker 2:And then you're like, wow, okay, you have to do a bar like a bar tour and talk to the crazy ones. That then connect you to the other crazy ones. And yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:The thing is that a lot of people that think like this are quite well hidden because they got disappointed, yeah, and they're like, no, why speak with anybody? Nobody understands me anyway. So we have to break some barriers there.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's say in this context in Greece. How was it then to connect to others like that in EARA, the European Alliance for Regenerative Agriculture? I will put a link EARAfarm, I think, is the link. To connect with others. In that sense, how was that for you to find part of your tribe there, people that are doing the same in Northern Germany or in Southern Spain or in Iceland, I don't know if there's an island farmer but anyway you get them yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So for me it was really very empowering to be connected with other ERA farmers because we see that we all face the same challenges. It's not only about farming regeneratively, but also living in rural areas, trying to be a pioneer, trying to push the movement forward. You need to have so many skills like community building. Now we realize we're all building communities and movements in our country without any kind of knowledge based on how to do this actually, or training or names, or what?
Speaker 2:yeah, there's indeed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're doing multi-stakeholder collaborations without even knowing about the term. So, yeah, it feels really good to be among these people and, yeah, I heard it, I think, from Philip, from Climate Farmers, that Regenac is a very good people filter. And, yeah, I can totally, totally agree. It's great to be connected with so many other pioneering farmers across Europe and being able to exchange about all these challenges that go beyond the farming itself.
Speaker 2:So it's very empowering, yeah, and what I saw I mean the report, depending on when you listen to this but just came out on a big research piece done on Mayara farms, among them many in Greece, and probably you're in the report as well. But one of the reasons there were many farms actually in Greece compared to other countries is because it seems to be better organized or the mycelium network is stronger or there are more connections and nodes than, in other way, bigger countries. Interestingly enough, how?
Speaker 2:is that satisfying to see so many of the data points showing up in a report about the European agriculture system and then actually heavily tilted or heavily weighted towards the Greek context.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think in Greece we have a lot of still small scale farms and still a lot of farmers.
Speaker 1:Uh, imagine, um, in greece we have about 10 million people in total is the total population and about 1.1 million are still working in the farming sector, which is a very big percentage 10 plus percent Like in a European comparison, it's a lot, yeah, so I think also it's a good reason why we have more data points in Greece in regards to Regenac and we are quite organized, I would say Also the true organic movement. There are a lot of farmers markets that are organized independently organized, let's say and looking at.
Speaker 2:Of course, there's a podcast where we explore the role of money and finance, with all the tensions it brings and all the potential, as well as a tool. I still think it is probably not a neutral tool, but definitely one that's being used mostly on the destructive side, and we have never in the REGEM movement really learned yet the language and the ways of how to put some of that to work. How has it been in Greece, with such a trauma, I would say, and a very harsh economic climate over the last decades? The role of money in the system, or is it maybe like, okay, I don't need to interact at all with the financial system because we know what happens when we do that? And it got us partly into this mess? Like, how is that relationship with finance and money in, let's say, the Greek region context?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we're still at very early stages. I wouldn't know about a project that is, a region that is financed by an investor, but I see the reaction of most of the farmers in our communities and the first reaction is suspicion and also the second reaction is I don't need this, I'd rather try without. Yeah, and then one question is also we have been so extractive with soil, so wouldn't we be better off to not do the same? In regards to investing in region arc, like I'm always wondering where will the profit go and why should it not stay in the community? And why would these investors not invest in their own buyer region, where they can actually see the impact and they don't need complicated measurement methods or monitoring methods to try to understand what is actually happening? Like I'm a very big advocate of investing in your bioregion.
Speaker 2:And but that begs the question is there enough? I mean, there are different questions. One is there money needed in, let's say, the region space in Greece? And then, is there enough wealth to do that as well? If the first answer is yes, yes, because we've extracted so much from many places, mostly southern europe and many other places, to a few very concentrated, let's say, financial hotspots.
Speaker 2:So there are probably many bioregions that are have been sucked dry, literally water-wise and money-wise. So the question is but if you're saying actually don't need finance or investing, or like money as a tool necessarily to keep going, or maybe it could be an accelerant within certain conditions, and then the question is is that money available locally or not? And then, or is there some kind of relationship intercontinental or intercontinental within the continent, possible to say like, to say like actually we're all in this together and there's finance that is available in Germany, the Netherlands or whatever. Pension funds have done their things in the past and maybe some of that should be put to work to store water cycles around the Mediterranean or something like that.
Speaker 2:Like what's your view? Let's start with the first one first. Like do you see a role for money in regeneration in Greece?
Speaker 1:let's start with the first one first, like do you see a role for money in in regeneration in greece? I think what we need is um investment in education. This is one thing. Uh, farmers in greece are not, don't have an education on how to manage ecosystems, although they manage half of the country, so this seems to be, for me, a very critical point to invest in this, even for all the other businesses that are connected to land, which is most. I mean. There's no wonder now the insurance sector is looking at region arc to make our ecosystems more safe and risk safe in a way.
Speaker 1:I think your question is very challenging to answer and I would say that, in the end, who has the money needs to find the best, most responsible way to deal with this role. If it's based on extraction, for me, of course, we need to make it to reverse this extraction. Again, what I see the biggest need from farmers transitioning to region ag in Greece is having sound markets that would be able to pay them properly and, yeah, just changing the way markets work, the way consumers demand food. This I see as a very immediate need. Um, yeah, I can't answer your question about the investment.
Speaker 2:But I and so what would you? Let's just flipping the question we always like to ask, um, and we'll get to what. What you would tell? I mean you're gay for obviously not investment, I mean your point of view to the investor side. But what if you would somehow one of these whatever wealth accumulation thing happened in the past decided to donate the whole thing to you and you wake up tomorrow morning and have a billion euros to put to work, so one in nine zeros, and which, before inflation, was a lot of money, it's still a lot of money, but it's somehow. The billions are flying around, but like, we'll keep it to like an insane amount of money. Nobody should ever have this, this kind of concentration of wealth, but it happens somehow.
Speaker 2:What would you do if you had to put that to work? I'm not looking for exact euro amounts, but that would be buckets. I mean education you mentioned, but what? But what would be okay if I had to put, if I had to look at four, five, six, 10 things. These would be the things I would do with that kind of money to really spur, or maybe you'd say, actually it's too much, I don't like. What would be your reaction and what would you do to more and more?
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, I think I would start a process of collective, uh, collective budgeting or, yeah, try to see, together with other practitioners, um, what would be the wisest thing to do, because obviously I would not assume that I know the answer but, um, I would, yeah, get together with other people that I deeply understand their values and trust their judgment and their wisdom, and then I think we would all come to the conclusion that we need to re-empower citizens to steward their realities. And we are actually in a process now. In our region, we started a bioregional weaving lab about a year ago and it's really an incredibly insightful process.
Speaker 2:It's part of the Ashoka Common Land right.
Speaker 1:Ashoka Common Land yeah, yeah, yeah. We get a lot of support from there, mainly in understanding our role and how to move forward and how to bring stakeholders together. And yeah, we are also learning not only how much power and intelligence there is in the collective, but that it's, in the end, the only process that will work, because I think whenever you design something without the people itself, they will only partly uptake it. They will be like, yeah, yeah, if you're lucky which usually is the case, yeah, yeah, but this is a process we're not used to.
Speaker 1:We're used to outsource, we're used to other people deciding for us, which also gives us the excuse of oh, it's their fault, their responsibility. But we need to totally flip the script again and understand no, it's our responsibility. We need to think what to do about it and also help the decision makers, the politicians, to allow the citizens to go on this journey together.
Speaker 2:Do you see that happening? Do you see that happening in your context?
Speaker 1:I actually heard about an example of a neighboring region where this process started happening, and I actually need to go there and understand how all this came about and to what extent it works and how we can support it and how we can learn from it. So and I hear this happening all over Europe as well, and probably beyond Europe also People start citizen councils, people just surpass the current political system and they set up their own. So I find this process really incredible hope-giving.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on a regional level it makes so much sense. A bioregional level is sort of the natural unit of, okay, what we can manage, or what we can at least understand and what we can oversee and have an idea around. And unless it's organized and organized in terms of governance or organized in terms of, then like the whole financial question is sort of irrelevant. But as soon as it is, you can start looking at okay, there are money flows, there is a lot of money flow through these systems, in many cases, either political value chains, like there's a lot of leakage, a lot of money leaves regions like this, and it's very extractive, like how can you keep more of that circling within within? I'm not saying even potentially community currencies et cetera, but just simply the flow of where things go and what leaks away and what doesn't stay from the education, the housing, from tourism, from food and ag, obviously fibers, energy very important one in many regions and most of it is flowing somewhere else.
Speaker 2:And what if 10, 20, 30% would stay in this region or not else? And what if 10, 20, 30 would stay in this region or not? What would? And for people as well, imagining from the re-entry of people that, like I can imagine soon, rather sooner than later, that regions are not going to compete, but people are going to choose a place to stay or to move to out of a city or out of another context, and they, I assuming, going to prefer places where these governance structures and the region is moving, let's say, in a more regenerative direction or regeneration direction, compared to other regions where that's not happening.
Speaker 1:Totally, and we see it already that people start gathering and moving around existing eco-projects or organizations that do work on a regional level. We see this already happening because people think, oh, this makes sense, I feel safer living there, so it naturally attracts them Very, very interesting.
Speaker 2:And so what would be your message to the finance community? Let's say, we do this in Greece, live. I always like to ask this question, like in a theater in Athens or the financial heart of Greece, what would be after? We do, of course, an inspirational evening, some really good food, but people forget, like, what would be the main message or a main seed you would like to plant in people's mind that the next day when they're at the desk, they might do something or they might remember from that evening we had before on regeneration?
Speaker 2:It's a very talented question, but I think People usually go oh. The two things I would like to say.
Speaker 1:No, I think actually, what we need to look out for is to spot extractive patterns on all scales of our life, and one is on an individual level. How extractive are we towards ourselves? Usually, we way overpass our own body's boundaries. We work too much, we stress too much bodies, boundaries. We work too much, we stress too much um. So of course, we reproduce this pattern on a relationship level, on a community level. We have the same pattern with land, with soil. This pattern repeats in our, in our organizations, in our companies. So I think it's creating awareness around these patterns and replacing these patterns, because I think, in the end, they are based on our belief system, which is the story that we tell ourselves and that we hear about competition and about yeah, I don't know lots of beliefs that are actually degenerative. So I think it's to create awareness around our extractive patterns.
Speaker 2:To ask a personal question where have you noticed recently or relatively recently, like something you spotted in your own work and probably on a degenerative pattern, Like what is? Yeah, where did you spot something with you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it. I think it never stops this uncovering of flawed beliefs and how they relate to, yeah, on an organizational level. Like I can't tell you now one in specific, but you see that our individual challenges, that they replicate on a societal level and that we get nourished very much by speaking with other people about this, and then we understand that we all struggle with the same challenges. I do see the extractive pattern a lot also across organizations, even of this movement, that there is a lot this pattern of self-sacrifice still.
Speaker 2:Are you managing to counter that? You're wearing a lot of different hats. You're on the road a lot, managing a lot in Greece. Like, how do you keep nourishing yourself and not burn into a burnout really quickly?
Speaker 1:I think what helps me a lot is actually having a land that can nourish me. So I yeah, I think I learned very much that if I feel stress, it's not a good sign. Something is not going the right direction. So I learned to set boundaries for myself and that was one of my biggest learnings, actually, of the past years not being extractive, to learn to even understand what are boundaries. I had to redefine what boundaries are and again, the metaphor with the ecosystems helped me to understand that boundaries in the end, are just expressing your thriving environment. But it is really hard when we don't do this even on a community level. People don't speak about their thriving environment. What is it that makes you thrive? We need to understand this. How how else can we thrive in our bioregions? And if we can't thrive, our lands cannot thrive. It's everything interlinked and I think once we understand this, we will we will be able to regenerate our ecosystems and ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's such a tension with the work is never done. There's 10,000 other things that need to be done, preferably yesterday. There's like the pioneering species is also pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, because it feels like the whole world is not waiting for it, but there is definitely. I don't know what is it pushing the stone up the mountain? You don't really see when the mountain, when you're going to reach the top at all, or in general, but realizing, yeah, it's a marathon, not a sprint, and unless we regenerate ourselves, this is not going to end well and we just fall into the same extractive mindset and the same downward spiral that many other things have fallen into. And leads, sort of naturally, to a question we love to ask around magic wand, so we take away your investment fund, but we do allow you to change one thing overnight, and this is an impossible one, because always people want to change 10 things.
Speaker 2:But let's say you have only one, but it could be anything from mindset shift to everybody loves lentils, to, I mean literally. We've heard on the shows or animals outside. I mean the CAP changes the European Common Agriculture Program Like very practical to very philosophical and we're open to any, but what would you? Do if you could change one thing overnight.
Speaker 1:I think what I would change is I would reconnect every actor in the agri-food chain.
Speaker 2:Reconnect because they are connected now but very disconnected, like what would be. What does connection mean in this case? Do they need to come on the farm? Do they need to like what's?
Speaker 1:what's the?
Speaker 2:what connection?
Speaker 1:that's a very good question. I think it's uh being emotionally connected, like because I see what is possible if consumers know the farmer, they start caring, and vice versa If the farmer knows the consumer, he starts caring.
Speaker 2:Do you use the word consumer now specifically compared to citizen, what you mentioned before or is that unconscious?
Speaker 1:I mean consumer in the sense that one buys from this farmer, yeah, and I just see how much is possible when we disconnect from each other. And it's also a bit based on the research of John Young. I don't know if you know about him, but he wrote this book Deep Nature Connection, and essentially he speaks about the nature deficit disorder, meaning that if we're disconnected from nature means we're also disconnected from each other and our own nature ourselves. And this is the prerequisite to do harm to ourselves, to each other, to nature.
Speaker 1:And once I came across this, I'm like, yeah, this was the, the person piece that was still missing for me, because I always felt it feels a bit pointless if I have to convince people or make them understand that it's not a good thing to put chemicals on soil. It feels like there's already something much deeper broken, like I shouldn't have to explain this. People should feel this like I feel it. When you hurt an animal or someone else, you feel something not good happened now. So for me this was a big, big puzzle piece. And also from reading the book of Frederic Lallou, reinventing Organizations, I think an essential puzzle piece in there is also reconnect people working in a company with where their work will essentially end up or where will be the next step. And I have many examples in my mind, but I saw how reconnecting what, what is connected, but feels, feels unconnected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I can. I can remember this example of this big unconnected. Yeah, like I can remember this example of this big auto part company I forgot the name now that suddenly they started reconnecting the people producing the individual parts with the other companies, then using these parts for further building the cars and suddenly, because they were connected, they knew each other. They started caring so much about the quality of their work that they even drove very far distances to make sure the quality was OK and without being paid or anything. Just they cared so much about the other human being having to deal with the result of their work that it changed literally everything, their work, that it changed literally everything. So, yeah, I think for me that would be my magic one. I would reconnect what is what is disconnected at the moment and it, and I think it would be the first step for, for, for people actually creating the solutions, because I'm not the person knowing all the solutions.
Speaker 2:We need every single human to think and create the solutions for their own challenging, flawed situations, but for me, connection is the yeah, the way to go and it's does that suggest, is that possible when you're in, let's say, a very urban environment, or does it suggest to for many, like reconnecting to nature, like nature deficit disorder, the hints towards more countryside? But also there's I mean, many countrysides are very, very monoculturist, partly maybe Greece, but especially countries that went down deep down industrial agriculture, extractive, let's say, route that's, that's tricky.
Speaker 1:but do you see that partly less urban, more countryside, yeah, I have to say I find it really challenging every time I go in the city to find good food. I don't even know where to find it. I mean I don't even know where to find it. I mean people don't even have access to soil. When you live in a city, you literally don't have the possibility to interact with soil. I mean you can go to the park but you cannot dig up the soil there. People would be like no, this is not allowed.
Speaker 2:You just planted the grass, so for me this is already.
Speaker 1:Don't touch the grass, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now, after 15 years living here on the farm, I'm like I need to touch soil, I need to see, I need to, I don't know. It's has become a very essential. There's a mental, there's a mental health piece to that.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of bacteria long conversation this morning about it. Uh, not for the podcast, but maybe at some point. But there's, there's healthy soil, does something very strong to your your through your gut, obviously and is anti-inflammatory, mental health improvement and all of that, which probably means you're missing that after a couple of days or a couple of weeks, not like being in a concrete jungle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I wouldn't even know practically if, living in the city, how would I connect with someone growing food, like I would need to travel very far outside of the city to even find someone growing food. And yeah, it has been very challenging to me growing to Brussels, to Paris, I'm like where, where do I find good food?
Speaker 2:here. That's not completely right, because, of course, there are farmer markets?
Speaker 1:No, no, but you need to search very long. You cannot walk into a random long, you cannot. Yeah, I went to many organic shops and you may go to if you go to a random shop.
Speaker 2:The chances are going to be very disappointing let's say yeah, it's a challenge yeah and so for your say like for you in this case, but for potentially for more, uh, it does mean, or it suggests, like it's going to be challenging to reconnect with nature in a city.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean there are some hotspots where you can connect a bit. But even I was recently in Siena, last week. There were beautiful flower stripes on the street like a lot, which was great, but I just found one bumblebee. That feels like surreal. It feels like I'm not on this earth anymore, because there were zero insects. I'm like, oh wow, I don't know, this is not good. And yeah, now about two days I can be without insects or soil. And then I'm like, no, no, I don't like this fascinating no but?
Speaker 1:but to come back to your question, I heard about people moving to the countryside because they realize they can't find good quality food, uh, in the city it's literally impossible, so they decided to move to the country, and these are greek examples. I think right, yeah, or even um, because you are spoiled with really good food in the countries.
Speaker 2:I think there's because you have still a million plus people farming, not all region, not all, like I'm not saying, but I think the chances of finding you know relatively random village in greece good food is a bit higher than in many other places, but but it's good reasons to move to Greece. I'm not saying you shouldn't, so that's not always the case, but probably safe to say on many, let's say, region farmers, the pioneering ones, part of EADA and other organizations, the chances of finding good food on those farms or around those farms is pretty high.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's a meaning. I mean, I think for many people us included food, interesting people and probably in the future, school systems, are sort of the main and housing are like those are the units a community and these interesting communities have access to good food, otherwise they wouldn't be there and like it starts with that and, yeah, you're blessed in a place, of course, with it's slightly easier to get access to it, not easy but easier. And in these kind of meetings EADA and others you've been a lot of, let's say, more region-focused events. We like to ask this question what do you believe to be true about regenerative agriculture that others don't believe to be true?
Speaker 2:And this is definitely inspired by John Kempf who asked it's slightly different, but where are you a bit contrarian within the movement? Uh, when it comes to to regenerative agriculture.
Speaker 1:I think I could say a lot of things here now, but I think one of the things coming up.
Speaker 1:What always comes up for me is this question um, wow, it must be very difficult what you're doing? And I'm actually. No, it's actually not. I think what you're doing must be very difficult. So I think, yeah, people think I would face a lot of obstacles, but actually it's exactly the contrary, which is actually now I start thinking about it. Yeah, like people think I'm faced with a wall of resistance or something like this with everything I do, but actually really the opposite is the case, like people are happily waiting for our help or our input or to do things together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we haven't faced resistance from a single person, actually, and I think this tells a lot about the willingness and the readiness of people to change, and I think this is also sometimes something I need to bring back to the people that are not so much in the field. Let's say that things look quite good, like people want this change. A lot of farmers contact us to transition and, you know, sometimes on these conferences where there are a lot of researchers and policymakers, they're like oh my God, how can we make these farmers change the way where they farm? How can we convince them to want to change? I'm like you don't have to convince them they already want but actually create the conditions and exactly. Actually there are so many laws that don't allow them to do circular regenerative practices. So maybe you should check out the laws you have in place and how, how hindersome they are actually to transitioning.
Speaker 2:But it also suggests how disconnected these circles are from real life, farming on the ground. Because if they would have spent not saying six months but two weeks on a few pioneering farmers in Greece that's not a big expense. That's not a big expense they would have learned so much about the actual reality of transitioning, about the barriers, the opportunities, the challenges, the technologies, the finance, the subsidies, insurance, whatever. It's not that difficult, but you need to listen, and listen intensely and carefully. Probably in a week or two you would have a good understanding of what's needed, instead of being in an office far away and researching how do we?
Speaker 2:incentivize farmers or convince, and I have yet to meet a farmer that's happily spraying or happily plowing maybe sometimes, but happily spraying or happily because we created with everyone a system that enables that or that favors that, and it's against all odds. We have the pioneering species and now the question is okay, how do we?
Speaker 2:yeah the people that reach out now and say, okay, I would love to, but I need some handholding and I need some, some support and some mental support and maybe some financial support or some inputs or some recipes for certain things to like. How do I don't make all the mistakes that everybody else made until now? Let's do it a bit faster. Yeah, but it's yeah, it's not yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a very interesting mindset of how do we convince these unwilling farmers to make a move, and they're yeah, actually, again, disconnection is a big problem here, because indeed the academic, uh, research and policy sector is extremely disconnected from the realities. Uh, try to influence. So my message is also do change in your lived environment. And if your lived environment is Paris or Berlin, well, do change there. And if you want to change rural practices, go live in a rural area. I know it will require a lot of structural changes, but I think they have to happen. I mean, there are still a lot of barriers for farmers, as I said, to do practice. Imagine in Greece you plant agroforestry. There's not even a way to register your farming operation. You can only register one cultivation on a specific plot, yeah, and you even get financially punished if you plant tree lines in a grain field. So it's not only hand-holding and supporting farmers, it's at least not punishing them financially or putting legal obstacles. That would already be a good start.
Speaker 2:Let's at least give us the same level playing field that we always talk about, and then let's show what is possible. Yeah, I think it's the famous quote of Joao Salatin everything I do is illegal as a farmer, and it's for some, for good reasons. Let's not. But many of these things are from animal husbandry. There's so many laws around made for CAFO operation, factory farms, for very good reasons for that sector. That should disappear. But it doesn't make sense if you're doing 20 chicken tractors across ski line and you're not allowed to do it.
Speaker 2:I mean most of these are objectively ridiculous around animal welfare and disease and there are a lot of and there are a lot of yeah, a lot of reality checks for policymakers, et cetera, because they all applaud these kinds of farms until they realize that most of the laws they created make it impossible to actually do many of these things and you sort of have to bend it and hide certain not hide but not mention. And okay, how do I register this agroforestry field that actually is also arable and agroforestry and animal? Nobody knows which box to tick. Yeah, that's a a good two-week deep dive for most of these policymakers. On a farm would probably solve or they get completely. We've seen it before that people give up their life on the policy side and start a farm somewhere, which is good, but it would have been nice if they stayed in their position of power for just
Speaker 2:a bit longer to help the transition and not just leave it and say, oh, I'm so inspired, Let me also start a farm somewhere. Anyway, you can't stop that, obviously, and shout out to look at the research piece. We're going to spend some more time on it on the podcast at some point you were part of With EADA and anybody that hasn't seen that report and hasn't read it. It's dense, relatively long, but absolutely worth to read. I'll put the link in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Like actual figures and facts limited but actual production on inputs and outputs on real farms, not models. Real farms in region, in Europe. To show this whole narrative of feeding the world is nonsense which we knew, but it's nice to have some extra figures and there's more photosynthesis happening on these farms, way less inputs and a lot of other interesting things. And what I really like about the beginning of that piece as well is how it shows the current agriculture research. What is flawed with current models, why is it not based on reality and why the region ones are always the outliers and thus ignored in most studies. Like, oh, that cannot be true, this is weird. Okay, let's not do that.
Speaker 2:And so it's a really good kickoff, I think, for a series of studies which I hope are coming out of aana, which I know with a bit more funding. If you're a funder listening to this, this is a place to. This is not investment advice, this is definitely philanthropy advice. Go and fund some of this work, um, on real research based on real farms, to dispel a lot of these narratives and myths that we've seen and sorry, that's my rant and plug um, how was it working with that? Or how are you? Because you're quite physically in that document with photos and your farm and a lot of your friends' farms? How was that process on the research and academic side?
Speaker 1:but now deep into REJA, yeah, actually it was really amazing to have someone really diving deep into our farming operation and actually showing all the results and the implications that also come with it.
Speaker 1:I think it's really good that we focused also on this whole economic aspect and all the inputs, and I think it provides a lot of clarity that we were lacking for a very long time to actually show all these figures, and we also want to go more in this direction in the Greek space, because in the end, you need to talk numbers, uh, to farmers as well. Um yeah, I, I think actually this whole research on, on, on, on eara, it also points a bit, um yeah, to another topic we should focus a bit more on which I think there's a lot of focus on the farmer in this whole region act transition. From my side, I find there's not enough focus on the food businesses and the huge role they play or could play. I think we need to explore this so much more. Recently, we were in contact with a French company actually called Miam and what they do. They have seven supermarkets in Paris. It started by three young siblings actually.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you introduced us. We've been in the supermarket, actually, but I haven't met the siblings yet I was like yeah, I recognized his name. I'm very bad with names, but now when you're setting three siblings at supermarket in paris, we're like actually, yeah, and you're selling through them right yeah, we found some products. Actually I didn't send you the picture, but we found some products in the supermarket. Yeah, amazing.
Speaker 1:At the moment there should be our lemons and our oranges there, so you can find them there. But it's not to do advertisement for Miam. It's to explain that we do need food businesses that are essentially looking at the farm itself and what the farm currently produces in terms of food, instead of doing it the other way around and being the consumer wants kiwis and he or she wants it now Like no. We have to support farms and be much more flexible and agile with the certain food products that we want to have, and I think this is the way we can support actually thriving ecosystems and with whatever food they produce, and I think this is the way we can support actually thriving ecosystems and with whatever food they produce, and I think for me, this is a really critical shift that we have to do in our food business.
Speaker 1:I don't know how it will be done, but there are some very good examples. Also, we have in Germany a customer since 30, 40 years actually. My father found him and for us he's like a safety net because we know whatever good food we produce, he can take it and he can sell on the market because now, since 40 years, his consumers, they know us, they know our story, they trust us, they trust him because he comes every year for us. This is what farmers need. They need a middleman that is sharing information and that is trustworthy from both sides and that can also create this bridge between consumers and producers, and this is how farmers will be able to very easily transition.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you can't expect every farmer it depends on scale, size etc.
Speaker 2:And processes to have a farmer's market, to have access or to even have time.
Speaker 2:It's such a could be such a waste of time.
Speaker 2:I've seen way too many times people spend the whole saturday on a farmer's market return with way too much stuff which could be pre-sold somewhere else, like there are a lot of ways we need to think of this, fortunately or unfortunately, as a business like it needs to make sense time-wise, which you could spend elsewhere, training other farmers, working on the land, and so the sales piece is very, very important and is probably a piece where we need way more innovation, like the mediums, like the wild farms and certain grains, like the crowd farming, like how do we bring more money from consumers elsewhere? Because some of these things will travel all over, like some of these crops won't go very far and many others will go far. Maybe we all relocalize, hopefully not because of a big crisis, but some of these crops will continue to go north or east or south or west and to make sure you get a good price for them and paid on time or preferably before. It makes all the difference for farmers that want to transition, because currently the commodity side of things is not ideal.
Speaker 1:let's say yeah, yeah, I'm really curious to hear more stories about good, good food businesses. Um, and we actually are also with our. I don't know if you know, but we do have a small food business. We export organic products. Yeah, so we're pioneering it again ourselves and, yeah, we see again that the connection between people is what, in the end, makes all the differences the trustful, authentic relationships between people. And maybe also to answer a bit to the relocalizing our food sources for us in the crisis, it helped a lot that we were exporting food. It gives you more resilience as a country to be connected with other countries. So, yeah, I think trade relationships are good if they are built on trust and respect and fair agreement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what you're suggesting is that you can build. Of course, it's nice to visit in person, and you might do it every year as this German salesperson, et cetera, but we have the opportunity to do a lot of this storytelling virtually online. Through quality, through nutrient, I mean, there's a lot of ways now, and more and more, to show that this is not just another commodity lemon or another commodity orange, like this is a different thing, not only because of the story, but actually because of the quality and the flavor, et cetera. And then it might this story might travel to Paris and, of course, less impactful if somebody is there on the farm, buys the kilo. That's a different, but that's not so scalable. So let's use that and double click on the storytelling piece, because that will enable these relationships to be built and thus for money to flow and goods to flow the other direction.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think with that, it's a perfect way to wrap up this conversation. I want to thank you, obviously for the work you do and for coming on here to to talk about it. I think there are many, many moving pieces and looking forward to check in in the future how greece which I could argue this is one of the leaders in this space, already thought up before, but like this, definitely organization-wise, let's say footprint-wise, and also, interestingly enough, the return piece makes up for a very interesting next five to 10 years, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yes, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening all the way to the end. For show notes and links discussed, check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculturecom slash posts. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend and get in touch with us on social media, our website or via the Spotify app, and tell us what you liked most and give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your podcast player. That really really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time.
