Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast features the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
379 Cindie Christiansen - Top 50 Farmers update and the simple tweak to raise millions for regeneration
A check in conversation with Cindie Christiansen, founder of Foodprint Nordic and Top 50 Farmers (no, it’s not a ranking, so nobody “won”). We spoke just six months ago, but this time we met in person to talk about the progress of turning farmers into the next superheroes of climate, water, health, and more.
We unpack her vision for systems change in food and agriculture. Directly from one of the world’s leading culinary scenes, Copenhagen, we ask: why hasn’t a strong farm-to-table, local cuisine movement led to real change in the agrifood system yet? And more importantly, what can we do about it?
We dive into her work with Foodprint Nordic and how they’re about to expand it to the rest of Europe. Very simply, but of course, it’s not that simple, the idea is to access a whole new pool of money not yet active in this space: the money of us eaters, and funnel it as quickly and with as few strings attached as possible to farmers ready to expand regenerative practices, planting trees, buying compost equipment, and more.
And even more importantly, how this approach could serve as a blueprint for real regional, and potentially national, action, helping shape government policy that truly supports regenerative farmers on the ground.
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In Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast show we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
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Checking in about how the launch of the top 50 farmers went and no, it's not ranking anybody, so nobody won. We sat down only six months ago, but it feels much longer, and this time we sit down in person with Cindy to discuss the progress of making farmers the next superheroes in climate, water, health and more, and we unpack her vision for systems change in food and agriculture Directly from one of the leading culinary scenes globally Copenhagen. We asked the question why a leading farm-to-table local cuisine movement hasn't led to change in the agri-food system yet and what to do about it. For example, her work in Foodprint Nordics, how they are about to expand to the rest of Europe. It sounds very simple, but of course it isn't. Try to access a whole lot of new money that isn't active in the space yet Money of isn't. Try to access a whole lot of new money that isn't active in the space yet money of us eaters and get it as quickly as possible with the least strings attached to farmers that want to put it to work for expanding their regenerative practices trees in the ground, compost, equipment, etc. But also, even more importantly, how this can be a blueprint for real action on a regional, a potentially national level to funnel government policies to really support region farmers on the ground. This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems, while making an appropriate and fair return.
Speaker 1:Welcome to another episode. Today we have Cindy back on the show, which I think was a year and a half ago, because your applications went live in November, I think 2023. Yeah, we're 25 now and a lot has happened. So, co-founder of Top 50 Farmers and, of course, foodprint Nordics, which we're going to explore both in detail in this second interview. So welcome back on the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy we could meet here in Copenhagen. Footprint nordics, which we're gonna explore both in detail in this this second interview.
Speaker 2:So welcome back on the show thank you so much for having me and happy we could meet her in copenhagen in person.
Speaker 1:It's always better we might have. We're in an official studio, but there's a staircase outside this door. There might be some door slamming at some point. We'll try to edit as much of that, but just so you know, we have very fancy microphones which we're not using because I don't know how to work, but I brought my own to record here and last time you just I think we, we went live around the time you opened applications. It was a very exciting time, but also very much still, let's say, not in the dark, but you had no idea if anybody would apply, or three people instead of 20, and how we're now, a year and a half later. It feels like a train definitely has left the station and is going. How has the last 18 months been for top 50 farmers? And then we get to Foodprint Nordic as well. What's the launch been? The first cohort is live. A lot of noise. You created online for farmers, which was one of the goals, or is one of the goals. How would you summarize the last 18 months?
Speaker 2:Hectic and a lot of fun too. So it was actually only last year when we opened up the first application for Top 50 Farmers.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, yeah, of course, only six months ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's only six months ago, but of course there was a lot of work before that, and then we announced the farmers this year in March. So of course that has been a really big job because it was important for us to do it well too. We do have a selection committee right. There's a process for everything, so and but this was what we have been aiming for, like it was the big thing we did, and it was so much fun to be on that virtual ceremony on March 18. We had no clue if that would work online. You could say Most people were skeptical we were too but how do you gather like the 50 farmers with stakeholders? It's not possible, and it was really important for us that they were all there. And we worked with this amazing woman, pally, from the Netherlands, who designed it, who designs all our sessions, and, to be honest, I think it worked well. I think it was fun. I think people were very engaged. Can we improve? Yes, we have to improve a lot with all new initiatives. That comes with learning, lots of learning and implementing.
Speaker 2:So now they're announced, we have kicked off what we call our annual recognition program, which is what the farmers get access to, and some of you might have seen all the stories that we're sharing around the farmers, which, of course, is much more work than we ever expected, because we thought we would do profiles.
Speaker 2:But what came to our mind, learning from the PR situation, is very few journalists are writing farmer stories these days. They simply don't have the capacity to do it, and we were like that's such a shame. So when we thought we'd get a lot of press around the specific farmers, it was more like the cohort and overall. So we actually took a step back and said okay, then we're going to do not profiles but stories. And yes, we did have a lot of information in the applications, but if you want to find the hook of each story and really find out what is motivating each farmer, who are they and so on, that is a lot of work. Let me just tell you that An lisa and the communication team are working hard, but I think we are on a path now. If you go in there, the stories are incredible, the farmers are incredible and our job is now to tell that story, which is so exciting yeah, it's interesting, and it's funny because it feels like 18 months from the outside seeing all the stories, but it's only six.
Speaker 1:So definitely November 2024. And you can see the attention. I follow it, mostly LinkedIn and Instagram, and, of course, get the updates et cetera. Yeah, most of them made videos as well. Like, I can only imagine chasing 50 farmers throughout Europe to get imagery, to get hooks, to get stories, and of course it's in their interest, but it's not their top priority, which we all completely understand, because they have very complex farms to run and some might have a bit of extra capacity in terms of people because they're much bigger. Others are two people and a market garden and so, yeah, let's say, very few have a dedicated communication person to communicate with you that then can share those stories. And have you now seen journalists and others pick up on the more individual farms or is it still a more general region farm story throughout Europe or Southern Europe or whatever region?
Speaker 2:We got over. I think we got 72 articles from our launch through Europe. I think 10% is like farmer-specific stories where they actually went out to some of the farms one in Norway and actually talked to the farmers. Everything else is like, overall, who are we as an organization and what do we want to do? And while I love to tell our story, it's not about us. So that's where we have a lot of work to do, which we are trying to do.
Speaker 1:That's one of the issues, yeah.
Speaker 2:With the stories now we create them and hopefully that will be published in the broader media picture along the way. But, as you say, farmers are busy. But I can only say I have been so surprised and so happy to see their commitment, even to get them to apply to this. I was like, as you said, will we get any? Who applies we? We got over 100 right for being a new organization without really a brand and not promising anything, because we also want to make sure we don't over promise. I was really. I was so thankful that people trusted in us and gave us that, yeah, opportunity or what you want to say time, like I've heard.
Speaker 1:You know, people reached out to us as well. Very honestly, is this real? Yes, should we spend whatever time we need to spend to do it well? Or is it one of those that, okay, we apply for something and then we never hear back and that's it, and that, of course, now you're over that hump because you have an amazing collection of 50 farmers, so now you can pull. You can pull to that, or you can point to that. Sorry to for the next go or say look, this is real and now we're going to work on go two, three, four and five, but for that first one, it's super tricky to get people to obviously to spend even half an hour on something that they have never heard before and I would also say we.
Speaker 2:Actually the application is not easy access because for us it was also important to get the more committed farmers to begin with right, because we do need some like information. We do need some pictures, because if we have no information we cannot select. And also for the recognition programs that they enter, if there's no commitment from their side, we can do everything we can do but you need people to be committed.
Speaker 2:So, which was also why we could also have made an application that was just like two sentences, like five minutes, and then we'd have gotten like maybe 500 applications, and people have been very focused on the number of applications, where I'm like that's not the importance, the importance is quality here, like who actually filled in. Where I'm like that's not the importance, the important is quality here, like who actually filled in. Of course, as you say, there has been a challenge because some people were like what is this? So maybe they didn't spend too much time on the application, but they're amazing farmers, but we have to.
Speaker 2:You can say judge on the applications, while this time we also took a lot of other things in, because, as many farmers who don't even have a social profile is somewhat like like one of the most incredible farmers, like maybe they're not good on socials, maybe they don't have a communication team, but they're doing amazing work. So that keeps being the challenge to of selecting and that's also why we will improve the selection process with some country experts like can help us be like a little more in depth with how we choose it. But yeah, nobody knew. Right Now we have to follow through with everything we promised and that's what we're trying to do, but nobody really knew what they signed up to, which makes me really thankful that people took the time.
Speaker 1:And what has been the biggest criticism? Because, of course, when you go public and you stand on the stage, there are always people that like to throw rotten tomatoes at it or complain. And what has been the biggest clips isn't the ones that, yeah, really, or the points people raised about about. This is about it's not a an exact list of top 50 farmers, obviously, which of course, in the name suggested, but it's of course. You were very clear in the other interview, the other conversation, that that there wasn't. This is not a ranking, but it's a cohort like where, in those 72 articles as well of journalists, did they go completely off or pushed back on things that you think really?
Speaker 2:yes, as you say, as a new project. People have a lot of questions and I think that's super fair. Again, I say I I don. I never expected us to come out, be like we just know it all. We also have to learn and there was a few things. One is the name. That was the name who came up back then when we sat together, and I think it also comes to how we want to talk about agriculture. There's so much language we need to change and that also comes with.
Speaker 2:This is not a ranking. I know we have been used to for many years talking about like rankings, but this is not a ranking. But we do highlight 50 role models and that is like also a top of something, but it's not a ranking. The other thing, of course, is like when you choose people, there will always be people who didn't make it into the cohort Doesn't mean they are not incredible farmers, but it means that we had to base it on the application and that will never give us a full picture.
Speaker 2:It's the same like when people do job application, like you review the application, not everything around it, which is tricky. It will never be perfect, it can never be, and one, I think learning that we had is. So we ended up doing what we call country caps, because you have countries that are very strong when it comes to regenerative farmers and you also have countries that are just starting. But it's really important for top 50 farmers to showcase different pathways and different role models, so we cannot only highlight Portugal or Italy. Well, that could be like easy to do.
Speaker 2:We also have many other countries, so we did a country cap where it means that you can only have I think it's 20%, which is like four farms per country. Having four farms from Portugal, for example, is very little. It means that some of the best farmers there and most pioneering farmers did not make it this year. Of course, that's a criticism. If you go to Spain, like we did not think about regional caps, which means that we are heavily represented on Ibiza, not the rest of Spain, which is like for next one, okay, we'll have regional caps. So lots of learnings and we just have to learn for each year on how we will do it. But like a selection will never be the full picture.
Speaker 2:And that's also something that we have to accept and yeah, so shout out to. I hope a lot of farmers who didn't make it this time will apply again right, because it is really about highlighting the incredible stories out there.
Speaker 1:And is that a I'm not saying a fear, but finding 50 every year, like seeing 100, of course gives a nice impression or a nice insight into that, like the next group, because I remember that I was part of the Investment Ready program at the Impact Hub Amsterdam a long time ago as a mentor and we really thought, okay, we'll find a nice cohort the first time. Will there be another one out there? Have we, let's say, mowed the grass and that's it? Or will it recover quickly enough? Just to say, in a metaphor to and actually what we found is the quality improved over time, simply because it was quite a time commitment from companies. They loved it.
Speaker 1:But the second cohort was really waiting to see what the first cohort was doing and then actually committed to applying even, and to going through. So actually the quality continued to improve while we thought, oh, maybe we just had the best ones now or the most interesting ones, and that was all that was out there. So it was a big like. The first one was a big gamble or a big question, and the second one was even a bigger question Are there others out there? Is that a thought, or have you seen the quality and the quantity. We easily fill another cohort. When the time comes, probably in November and autumn, when you start, when you open it up again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to open up on November 4th again. This is a question we have already gotten, also from funders, and I think it's interesting because it goes back to our scarcity mindset all the time. Do we have enough? And I can only say we will keep going as long as we can find really incredible farmers, and I think we can go. Many cohorts still. You know a lot of farmers who are not in there. I know a lot of farmers who are not in there. I know a lot of farmers who are not in there yet.
Speaker 2:I know there will be many more cohorts and top 50 farmers has never only been the idea about Europe Like we are thinking, like we want to include other regions along the way. So it's not like only I. Yes, yes, there will. I truly believe there will be many more out there. But I understand the question. But I think for many regards in this world, we need to move out of the scarcity mindset and see what happens. I also often say we are a nonprofit organization. We are here for some time. It's never the idea within a nonprofit to go forever. We are here as long as needed for the system change. So when we intend, let's say, 10 years, like all farmers, has really been highlighted, shared. There's new conversations, funding is floating into the space. I will be good.
Speaker 1:Let's do something different. And from a funder perspective because we talked about it quite extensively in the other conversation, which, of course, I will link below how has that been? You've been very successful in fundraising for a new initiative, very vocal about, let's say, compensation and making sure that this is a long-term regenerative thing in itself as well. Now that it's live, has it been easier? Different, like how are the funding? Because you need funding for the next years. Obviously it's not that you raised everything for 10 cohorts or something Like. All these funders are interested, even the ones that very brave funders that joined. They're not going to say see you in five years, here's the budget. How has it been to now be fundraising for something that is live and that you can point at in the funder community? Has that made a significant shift or is it still as difficult for multi-year rounds, et cetera, as it was a year ago?
Speaker 2:We just started the next funding round, right? So we fundraised for the first two years to begin with, and from April next year, 26, that's where we enter a new funding cycle. So I'm on the road right now. I am learning. I don't come from the non-profit world.
Speaker 2:Food for Nordic was the first non-profit organization I ever did not knowing about the philanthropy landscape, which is a big challenge, right. So the funders we have now has, of course, bought into an idea. They had no clue how we would carry this out. What would we do? So, thankful, they said, yes, now we have something to show. We do have the first cohort, we have a program for them. We have showed some kind of impact. Have we shown results? I wouldn't say that yet. It takes time, so we will see. I'm still learning.
Speaker 2:Right now we are opening all doors for foundations, family offices and people out there who can see the idea of having this initiative going. Hopefully we'll close three years. I would say right, because, as most people running nonprofits I think we have seen also many times, yes, they run out of money, but what they also run out is energy and what we need right now is people in this space to close some of these gaps that are not done by the system or traditional funding. So it's really important that we also stay motivated, energized, not burning out, so we can do everything we can do and we work very hard, but in the end, it will be to like the world outside to really decide should it prolong. That's how I feel sometimes. I feel we work hard but we want to take care of ourselves, and that also goes for not running on a minimum salary. I often speak about this. I feel it's interesting that we always want impact work to be cheap. I completely disagree. So, yeah, we are looking for value aligned funders also in that regard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which was a piece last time we talked, and I think it's such an interesting pushback to everything in impact and salaries et cetera have to be cheap because you get so much reward elsewhere or something, or it's okay if you burn out or it's okay the quality of life et cetera.
Speaker 1:Which then still the scarcity, or scarcity versus abundant mindset, like it's great on paper, but then if you get pushed back from a funder or potential funder and you need that money or you think you need that money, you don't know if there are others out there. It's connected to a conversation we had with Thomas Hogan and actually here as well. They just said no to quite a significant institutional investor. The interview just went loud because they weren't aligned in values but also weren't aligned in impact metrics and they were scared that T ticket would distract them from their core mission, which is funding radical founders. But saying no to a 7 million check when you have 22 million under management, that requires some strong sense of commitment and purpose and knowing he says, I know there will be other tickets out there that are more aligned and there will be, but still it's not easy to say no to that kind of funding or, in this case, investment.
Speaker 2:No, nothing of this is easy, right, it is really you are in it for the long run and everything takes time and sometimes you have to say no, like this, so stay in for a longer time. It's also about perspective. It's not like it's an ultra marathon what we are doing in this space right now right so, it's an ultra marathon what we are doing in this space right now Right. So I think you can say something. You can say yes to something easier now, but will you sustain the long run? I don't think so, and we can't run around and talk about regeneration and all this if we all, if then we run organization and businesses like just full speed on no value alignment, like really regeneration, about relationships and connection also, and it's about reconnection, and I think we need to think about that. I'm saying that now, while still fundraising, yes, and we will see what happens, but I feel we are doing everything we can. We have a great advisory board and also board of directors who are supporting so much people around us. So, yeah, that's where we stand and we will keep our values. We need that Also just personal. It needs to be value aligned before.
Speaker 2:I'm interested to be honest, and I will also say I don't believe we are going to be 100% funded for all the time we're going to be here. That's not what I wish. Like I think right now we have spent soon, two years, next year on creating a foundation. Then I see the next three years of capacity building, building that out. But we want revenue streams too. I think that's also where we need to change our minds a little bit about nonprofits right. Nonprofits don't have to rely 100% on funding. You can have revenue streams. You can think a bit about business. Yes, you have different shareholders, but you can think about it. So we're also looking for partnerships. That comes back to the farmers too. Like we could only say yes if it has value for the farmers. Again, a back value alignment right, but that's what we are building out as we go.
Speaker 1:And to shift gears a bit, to Zero Footprint Nordics, which is the umbrella organization, but we didn't really talk about it last time. Of course, we covered Zero Footprint with Anthony Mint, which I will link below as well, but I don't think we can ever spend enough time on potentially system change solutions. So Zero Footprint Nordics, here in the Nordics, soon to be Europe. What has been happening there, apart from the Top 50 Farmer work, which of course, is under there, but there's a bigger umbrella, let's say at work? We've been to many places here in Copenhagen which have the mention the 1%, and you see it in the bill and you see some explanation, et cetera. What is next for Zero Footprint?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, as you say, like Footprint Nordic is an extension of Zero Footprint in the US, is an extension of zero footprint in the US soon to become footprint Europe right from next year. And that also goes because of top 50 farmers. I can come back to that. But yes, we decided to extend that model into the Nordic countries four years ago. So footprint Nordic right now works as an umbrella where the only goal you can say is to speed up regenerative farming overall and provide as much value into the space as we can.
Speaker 2:Footprint Nordic and Zero Footprint is hospitality and food orientated. That means that we accelerate this transition through the food and hospitality sector. That means mostly through food brands and restaurants. So let's say you, as a guest, you go into a FoodPen Nordic member restaurants, then you will have 1% added to your bill or a fixed amount that goes into FoodPen Nordic and then we allocate that out to farming projects and farmers can apply to get this money for whether that is compost projects, it can be. They need to grow or scale some of their business to reach a bit of a larger market. It can be anything could also be for machines like. It's really open. It is really money that is not yet found in the system, and that's what we have to remember is really money that is not yet found in the system, and that's what we have to remember that this is not a full transition money. It's really for the small scale, smaller scale farms who need to scale what they're doing and who are also those are actually feeding the most of the world. As we have to remember, the small scale still right. So that is money that becomes available. So it's money where the farmers don't drown in biocracy. It's really easy to apply for this money and we have seen great results of the money we have put out and they're also found on our website.
Speaker 2:From next year, we're going to expand that to Europe, right, Having more restaurants on board, having more food brands and so on. And you and me we have already talked about this Like it's still for many difficult to understand how that can be a system, like system change. But if you look at it, if you're not that many restaurants yes, there's a little bit of money here and there, but if you think about the impact that this money can have, if you have several restaurants doing this, maybe in five years. Also, corporations we have talked about the municipalities. This can actually scale out to be a lot of money that we have available for the regenerative farming space that is not available right now and I don't think it will be in five years we will see. I think this change could move much faster than policy if we really get it right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think it's an under under, it's an overlooked piece. Like everybody talks about policy and subsidies and the common agriculture policy or program here in Europe and, of course, subsidies elsewhere if you're lucky or unlucky enough to be in a place where that drives. But in this current political climate, saying we're going to tax something extra, we're going to raise some money somewhere and then bring it to farmers with all the bureaucracy we know that usually these programs have, it's just going to be very difficult. Maybe an exception is India, where natural farming became the goal of the agriculture ministry and let's see how that, with policy et cetera, comes to life. But for many other places we're not there yet. We don't have 20, 30 years of grassroot movement that got us to that point in India.
Speaker 1:And so how do you start very concretely raising significant money? These are small amounts, but a lot of small amounts is a lot of money from the pioneer restaurants, from food brands et cetera that understand and are anyway looking for ways. And this is extra money. This is money that comes from the public. It's opt out, meaning there's no forcing. We cannot say, oh, we're raising taxes et cetera. If you don't want to, you can say no to it as a guest. I'm always wondering how many people actually do that, because OptOut is such a beautiful system in these things. And then that money goes relatively quickly, without a lot of hassle, to actual farmers that just need to plant more of these and these trees or that need to get their agroforestry machinery up to date or needs to build out a compost facility further, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and there 10, 20, 30, 50 or 100K makes an enormous difference without any strings attached, without any complex reporting, without any carbon credits God forbid et cetera. And I think we underestimate how much of that is in itself, as a first step, very useful, obviously for the farmers. But then if you start showing that you say look, the public and the general food-buying public is okay with this. Only 1% opts out or nobody actually ever opts out. Then you can go to your community and say we discussed it with Anthony as well.
Speaker 1:What does it mean if we make this mandatory opt-out for all the food-selling things in a town or all the food-selling in a region and if that money stays in the region, then it goes actually to the farmers? Is that something that makes sense for and I'm waiting for also in the US. We haven't seen that yet. But for a local community or a local municipality, say, let's experiment, let's somehow drive some of the money that we spend on food and on food in this area and let's drive it back to the farmers and let's see if that gets going. We're not there yet, but once that happens I think we're going to get different regions.
Speaker 1:But that's an interesting model to fund the transition we anyway want to see. We don't have a lot of extra cash at hand because everybody's cash-strapped, but we do have a lot of farmers that need things and want things. And how do we flow that? With relatively little effort from our side, because it's not that we need complex legislation and votes and referendums, because that's not going to fly and that I think that path like but that's step four, five, six, but in the next five years probably we're going to see that somewhere in Europe where somebody says, ooh, let's experiment with this at scale. Or a city that's super advanced, copenhagen, or somewhere else that says, okay, let's really push the needle here. But you need that groundwork, you need a lot of experiments where people don't opt out, actually do it. A lot of farmers that get money to do things, then you can point that okay, what if we do this across the board?
Speaker 2:As you say, this is like the first step out of many for the system change. We have to start somewhere.
Speaker 1:But people forget. Like when I talk to people about this, they say, ah yeah, great 1%. And then it's ah yeah, that would be nice if people raised money. But I don't think people necessarily without looking and reading enough, obviously but see that step 10 could be a city like Milan saying let's get two, three, 400 million a year for, and we actually do it without raising taxes.
Speaker 2:And you know, what becomes very important in that situation is to.
Speaker 2:agriculture is very political, but in a case with this, it's food it's different, and so it's also going to be easier for municipalities or corporations to say let's fund that because it goes to a majority and not to specific farms. It's about food, not so much about farming. It can actually also help the conversation and how we actually get money into the space, because food seems to be less political than farming often. So I think that's very important for the conversation and also I want to highlight that, as many people know, like restaurants, they don't have big profits. So this is not restaurants donating, it's the eaters, it's the guests.
Speaker 2:So, as you say, it comes from the public money. It's just a redirection of how money goes in the system, and the whole idea with this 1% or a fixed amount is that this just becomes like business as usual. We have actually seen it on cars already, where a small percentage goes to something for a more sustainable material. It just have to be like how it is when you go out and dine A small percentage, a small amount, is going back to the system where it comes. So what we do is using the chef's voice, the restaurant's platform, to facilitate this change. Chefs are cultural leaders today. Right, they say what should we have on the plate? How does it look like in the future? There's such a huge opportunity to use that now with the chefs. Who wants to do something like this and use that platform to facilitate change beyond the plate?
Speaker 1:And beyond their sourcing, because that's, of course, the first idea. People, oh yeah, chefs great, they have a big voice Okay, their menu and how they source. But what we also discussed last time with Anthony, that doesn't necessarily lead to extra hectares or extra compost or extra trees, it might just be competing. Okay, I select these carrots because they grown differently compared to others doesn't mean extra carrots will be grown for no extra regen carrots will be grown, or whatever Regen means in a carrot. And so how do you? We need extra money and probably a 1% or a fixed fee. Like you don't even see it 99% of the times. You might have a discussion about it. You might see it because there's some stickers around. It might lead to something, but it's a lot of small pieces of like, a lot of times a small amount it leads to quite significant amount. And for again, for the smaller operations or larger operations, some of this funding would either be impossible or incredibly difficult to get somewhere, or simply not existent, exactly.
Speaker 2:So it has a huge potential in my eyes. I think we have only been here for four years in the Nordics. We have tried a lot of things and, as we have shared with you two, to be very honest, it has been very practical admin challenges which I had no clue about when we did something like this. So adding 1% is actually not very easy on a backend system in a restaurant and that's what people don't think about. So that's also like we have learned a lot the last four years of how can we make this easier for the restaurants, so it doesn't become like this hiccup to be part of. And that's what we will take these learnings and scale that out to Europe next year.
Speaker 2:Based on that now Finding, like, the right people, the right spaces, because will this be for everybody At some point? Yes, but that's not how change is done. Like you start with people who are already where the energy is. You build out and that's also how we're going to do it and then we reach step eight, nine, 10, and then it becomes the normal. So that's really what we're aiming for, but we had to learn a lot the first four years and while Zero Footprint has done that for a longer time, I can just say US is very different from Europe. What you say, how we operate the systems like, how people understand adding anything to a bill. So let's take Denmark as an example. We are not used to adding anything to our bills. It's a huge cultural thing and to do something like that, so that's also something we had to spend some time on.
Speaker 1:Tipping is not a thing, which means Tipping is not a thing.
Speaker 2:And I can also say just for Copenhagen, the last three, four years it's been a really challenging scenario for restaurants all over the place, so it's a very challenging industry also to work with in that regard, but that's also when you're not that many. It becomes very vulnerable. But as we build out, we will have more resilience and we will be able to reach even more farming projects, because right now we have to be really conservative, because you never know how the next year looks like and, again, you don't want to over-promise for the farmers. You want to make sure you can actually pay the money you promised and all that. So it takes time.
Speaker 2:I think it had huge potential. I think we had to learn a lot and, to be honest, I think with Top 50 Farmers, which is our flagship project right now, it will maybe actually give us a little bit of support in that regard, because for some reason, people understand Top 50 Farmers better than something like this. So I think it came just at a right time. We did not know that, but I think it came at a time where it gives us the opportunity to go outside the Nordics now and see what we can really do with that brand and also getting food and hospitality even more involved, whether that is like the 1% partnership on getting the farmers to be part of more events the restaurant, the sourcing, everything Because one thing is that it's very important about that initiative that Anthony came up with.
Speaker 2:It might be 1%, but what happens as soon as you engage with the chefs around these things? It's like more questions, it's all. But if I do that, could I then get access to this? Can I meet the farmers? What do you say? Should we bring the farmer into the restaurant and invite the guest? And I'm like, yeah, sounds like a really good idea. It's about changing the conversation too. That's how we lead change that's an interesting angle.
Speaker 1:I never imagined the order of things would be like that. Like it's, of course, but it's easier. A, a fixed fee to footprint Nordic or a 1% is probably something that lands easier than saying let's overhaul your whole sourcing guide. But then if somebody says, oh, this part of this money went to Andy outside Copenhagen to plant XYZ in terms of trees, should I meet Andy and maybe reach out and do something with the dairy or something with the eggs, or should we have, because this is a nice almost entry gateway drug to much more relevant, not much more relevant to deeper conversations that could change sourcing et cetera as well? And that conversation here in Copenhagen and we've been here now for a bit it's definitely one of the most vibrant, probably culinary scenes anywhere in terms of fine dining, in terms of farm to table, in terms of chefs, et cetera, et cetera. And then that is there.
Speaker 1:How strong is that connection to, let's say, the countryside in Denmark, to the actual, because it's a very productive, very industrialized countryside? Like, how much is Copenhagen an island in that sense, because you go around here and farm to table, not almost everywhere, but quite a bit Stickers of how much organic is used in the kitchen. You see maybe footprint, nordic stickers, et cetera, and then you see a countryside that I think is world champion in the amount of hectares or percentage of hectares used for agriculture Very intensive, a lot of issues, countryside-wise pollution, like many other places. How does that exist in the same country?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's a huge opportunity that is still missed. Yes, top restaurants where they source with organic, regener, regenerative farmers, but that's just such a small percentage of the whole culinary scene. So it's as soon as you go down to middle range and low that would really have an impact. So still a huge missed opportunity. But I would also say let's say that all restaurants hospitality said in denmark, like now, we want organic, regenerative produce. It's not available.
Speaker 2:We have a huge issue with age right now, not only in Denmark but the whole world. Like farmers are aging. I read that 60% of our farmers in Denmark over the next year is going to un-pension. 60%, it's a lot. And we have a big issue right now where over the next five years, unless we really do something to attract the next generation, we will have more or less no vegetables and fruit produced locally in Denmark. Right now it's only 25% that is locally produced in Denmark. That's not going to happen. So I can just say we have big potential in Denmark, we have pretty good soil to do that and we have a lot.
Speaker 2:But it's a missed opportunity both. But when it comes to like restaurants for sourcing, but we are not there. Also, on the other side, we don't have enough farmers. We can't really attract the next generation yet, which, for me, is always what I want to talk about, because we have so many goals of what we want, like climate, environment, but we are missing the point of not having farmers in the future, and that's always why we talk about the next generation showcasing role models. And the next generation is not about age right. It's about the next generation of farmers who want to farm with organic and regenerative principles so big potential. We could do even more. It's about changing the conversation, to be honest and to also make it accessible. It's not accessible right now.
Speaker 1:It's interesting how it comes back to top 50 as well, like how famous we I'm saying the general we made chefs and the chef culture and the restaurants. And then it's interesting that let's say, of course the agriculture part is suffering, like everywhere else, but slowly now it's getting more attention. Actually, if we don't train hundreds, if not thousands, of farmers in the next years, there's just nobody to take over these farms, which I don't mean they close, which I don't mean like the neighbors. Taking over becomes even bigger because that concentration of mega farms is accelerating everywhere in Europe. Mega factory farm, like styles is accelerating as well. So it's really. And then we celebrate, like in Copenhagen, other places, like the culinary culture, like everything is fine. Let's say, ok, if we just move a bit more in farm to table, if we sort of slightly better, yeah, but if there's no farmer to grow, the stuff it has to come from elsewhere. It's not that it's going to like. These flows will redirect and the countryside here will suffer.
Speaker 2:That is actually what chefs understand, because if they have no availability to the produce, they have no restaurant, they have no guest. So again back to what is it that we talk about? Like it's not just about doing bidder, it's not like charity, like that, like people often like I don't Do you see that notion landing now Because it's also seems sorry to interrupt, but it seems easy.
Speaker 1:Of course, if you want to serve really well, that's difficult, but it's easy because there's always a wholesale truck that comes, sale truck that comes Like you can order anything on your tablet or whatever, and it's sure, of course, not the quality one, not the freshness, not the, but it will come from somewhere. It has might been on a truck for three weeks, but there is yes.
Speaker 2:But you know what Chefs? They are proud of local produce. They are proud to be where they are and using that local produce Like they're so proud of their craft. So they are, like, the best ambassadors for this, while they also have a really important voice from the last many years. I think it's such a like a missed opportunity not to engage more with hospitality and food. They care, they have a craft, they're very similar to the farmers. They are very with their craft right. So that's why, like why I'm so motivated to get food and hospitality involved, because I think it's a huge potential to actually transform agriculture while policy and everything else legislation is working. Also, of course, it's not like it is many things that needs to come into question right now that we have to solve. But don't underestimate hospitality and food Chef what they can do right now for changing agriculture. I think that's a big misunderstanding.
Speaker 1:And do you see that sense of urgency with chefs? Of course it depends. You see some people asking how is it going with region? How is all the backlash in terms of sustainability and the attention and blah, blah, blah and IO financing In many places?
Speaker 1:It's especially larger food companies it's no longer nice to have because their supply chains are suffering Potatoes, olives, orange juice, cacao, and you don't have to follow a whole lot of commodities to see, let's say, we're in a wild ride and in those companies or the forward thinking ones you hope I know some, but not all this is becoming a procurement department and a CFO conversation, not a chief sustainability officer conversation anymore. Do you see that sense of urgency? In kitchens, where you come as well, it's actually becoming more difficult to source, more difficult to like outside the top few that, of course, have been sourcing directly, maybe from their own farm, they know. But again, we need the layer underneath that or the layer next to that to start driving significant demand. Do you feel that sense of urgency about sourcing as well? Is that starting to pick up like a harvest that are failing Quality? That's semi there, semi, not really there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it also depends on where in the world we look like. So now we are in Copenhagen, denmark. We still haven't seen the same, the same. What like? What's happening in the south of Europe, right, like where, like you really see, like harvest like declining, like weather issues. So I think the urgency in Denmark is still lacking. To be honest, last year we did have a really big problem with potatoes because of the rain, and that's where Danish people started to be like, oh, our potatoes. Right, we're a potato country and suddenly prices raise. You had restaurants, you have places that couldn't get their normal potatoes. So the struggle is real, but, being in the Nordics, it will take a longer time before the urgency is there. And while there is a big urgency it is what I'm trying to talk to the chefs about but not in the like urgency way always, because, again, you always want to motivate, to change, not like the other way around urgency is not a great.
Speaker 1:It's a great motivator when it's happening. But you talk about it is not so strong, but if you said, but true if you cannot get your potatoes suddenly. But if you come in or maybe next year you cannot get your potatoes. People like that, yeah sure yeah, exactly, but if you notice it, olive oil prices go through the roof or whatever important sourcing you have then.
Speaker 2:But yeah, you have to feel that I don't think talking about urgency is such a no, as you said before, you have chefs who understand this and have as a big vision of also how they want to do change.
Speaker 1:But that's the 1% yes.
Speaker 2:And let's start there. Let's shoot potential there, and then we move it down as the world unfortunately will change, as we have already seen. And then we move it down as the world unfortunately will change, as we have already seen, and then we will take it from there. But the struggle is real for many and inflation.
Speaker 1:of course you mentioned the suffering in the restaurant space in the last couple of years. It hasn't been easy. In terms of energy prices, sourcing in general, anything has become. Salaries, et cetera have become a bigger and bigger piece of the pie and restaurants it's not that they have been running on crazy margins like software companies, so the squeeze is real there as well. Just if people recognize oh, this is climate weirding and this actually has to do with how we farm, which is a step, of course, if it doesn't hurt so much. Yet the easier conversation is flavor and locality and nutrients and health and all the other things we like to talk about.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And let's see where we go with this. As a final question or a final piece of the conversation we can discuss food systems change for forever. How does that integration like now what you've learned for the last year's year in the Nordics? Also, are you surprised that nobody else has said, okay, we're going to do footprint Spain or footprint the Netherlands, or footprint UK or any, because it's such a powerful. I still think it's such a powerful potential. We still have to see if it flies anywhere. But, like, the potential is significant and I still have the feeling and we talked about it before as well it's not been really landing anywhere at the scale or at the explosion or mushrooming or whatever we want to call it that we envisioned. I think when you saw it first, you were like whoa, this is a very interesting potential piece of the puzzle. Anthony, of course the same and some others, but not many. Are you like, ok, now we're going to do Europe because nobody else is doing it, or what's the feeling there?
Speaker 2:I think I've been in conversation with more than 10 people reaching out either to Anthony or me about scaling in Europe, and I am always very clear that it's not a part-time job to do that. It's really hard work because you do need to have some kind of relationship with the chefs, do need to have some kind of relationship with the chefs. You need to manage that relationship. There's a lot of work into that still, and while you, as you also say, there's about something about the timing and when we do all this, I think we matured our learnings and also the conversations language so.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's before now and I think it does take a lot of learnings, to be honest. So nobody really did that With Top 50 Farmers coming in. I felt we got a good push in trying to make it happen in Europe, because it's just, chefs are so used to the whole Michelin World's 50 best they really get Top 50 Farmers, I know, but it's like it's funny that it's a better gateway's like it's funny that it's a better gateway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny, it's a gateway in and so I don't know. You're using the competitiveness of chefs to get in.
Speaker 2:Why not? And I think it's a huge opportunity, and why have people not been doing it? It's really difficult to build something from ground up. I think people have done that, that know that it is not a part-time job, it's not something you do once in a while and you have to leave maybe your corporate job to do it. That's tough, and I also think that that model needs something extra. I think that is my biggest learning. Also, talking to Anthony, maybe it doesn't stand alone, maybe it comes with another initiative like Top 50 Farmers, where we can build it better and then we can reach out to corporations more chefs, more restaurants. So I think it takes something different that we haven't had and that, for, if people look at this, might not have neither, I don't know, because Top 50 could be like.
Speaker 1:you want to support farmers like these that are doing amazing to speed them up, and all the stories are already out there.
Speaker 2:Every year we have a new cohort, we have a lot of farmers actually coming in. That's very tangible for restaurants to say okay, we have these farmers coming in, we have the alumni of these farmers, this is what you support, whether that's through the recognition program or like the projects itself. I think we need that tangible element that we have not had the same way in any of the countries yet. We also tried a zero footprint in Germany.
Speaker 2:Didn't work out, so let's say we're putting all efforts in, it will take if any chefs are listening right Like it is really about getting chefs on board to to see what, how we can do this, food brands, so on very interesting.
Speaker 1:I think there are few. There are many paths to systems change, but this is definitely one we need. We haven't explored to the deepest, well, not because of lack of trying, but definitely, yeah, because of it just haven't taken off yet. And when we all know, all know, when the time comes for an idea or a concept to take off, because of all the hard work before and some luck and some timing and some funding and some other things, then yeah, I think we could be surprised how much this can stick and how much money can flow through this, which is at the end. There's a bottomless pit. Now we can support the top 50 farmers.
Speaker 1:The is at the end. There's a bottomless pit. Now we can support the top 50 farmers, the other 50 that applied, plus we can probably make an easy list of 200, 300 that could apply tomorrow for something which would fundamentally change their farm and would make a big difference, which is like rough calculation, tens of millions if not more, that could go every year to farmers and would have a lasting impact. Of course, started with compost and others, and trees and some processing, some other things. These make huge differences and then let's hope that the whole funding, let's say world start waking up to farms and farming. But before that happens, I think, unfortunately, we'll be a few years in.
Speaker 2:It will for sure. Sure, and I think also one of my dreams is that this funding also becomes accessible for the new generation of farmers. Right now, we only fund projects, farms that are already going. We still need that funding for people to enter, so there's so much like where we can put the money. So I think that's also what is driving me.
Speaker 2:I just there is this need and I, while this doesn't work 100% right now, we need to push to see how can we get it to work, because the need is out there and there is so much money in this world overall. Let's figure out how to do this, and so I can't leave that. I need it to work, and when you look at most businesses and projects, it takes time. You have years of learning. Where things don't work. It's not so unusual, to be honest. So, yes, moderations, we need to recreate. We will do that and we will try in Europe from next year. I am believing it will work, because the farmers really need it and we need it, society needs it and we need it, society needs it.
Speaker 1:And let's say the hospitality no, not the hospitality industry or profession itself. Necessarily there's a lot of money flowing through, but all of us that continue to go out for dinners, that continue to engage, there's definitely some extra cash, some extra tips and some extra revenue streams we can unlock. So thank you so much for coming here to do a quick or not super quick update on Top 50 Farmers and, of course, footprint Nordics, which soon is going to be Footprint Europe. So if you're a chef, forward thinking, acting and you want to get involved, definitely reach out. And if you are a farmer that maybe knows a chef, both, both apply. Maybe that's an easier, that will be the easiest, especially ones.
Speaker 1:I think the fine dining amazing, but also not the layer underneath. But it makes it a ranking again. But, like multiple restaurants, likely more fast, casual, where you reach a lot of people because this is such a good conversation starter, and then, of course, at the same time, start looking at your sourcing. But that's the sort of obvious one. So thank you so much, cindy, for the work you do Tirelessly, endlessly banging the drums of farmers, banging the drum for the farmers, and, of course, for coming on here to share about it.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for giving us the opportunity once again, so excited. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening all the way to the end. For show notes and links discussed, check out our website investinginregenerativeagriculturecom slash posts. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend? And get in touch with us on social media, our website or via the Spotify app, and tell us what you liked most and give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your podcast player. Us what you like most and give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your podcast player. That really, really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time.
