Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast features the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
400 Omoke Brian - Inside Africa’s regenerative agriculture opportunity
Bill Gates Foundation works in Africa: what goes through your mind when you hear those words? We all probably quickly have our thoughts ready, but hold on a second. Just as we often talk about farmers without asking them, we often talk about the African continent without asking people actually living there. So, we never fully grasp how big, how interesting, how full of potential, and how fundamental it is in a regenerative future.
In this new series on The African Regenerative Frontrunners, we try to do that differently. We will be talking to amazing regenerative entrepreneurs on the continent, but we obviously are not the best suited to do that and thus won’t be doing this alone. We are collaborating and co-hosting this series with Omoke Brian, aka The Organic Guy, who has been deep in organic agroecology for the last 10 years, based in Kenya, an entrepreneur himself and a podcast host. We will be co-hosting a number of conversations. We will both interview different guests and build upon each other’s episodes, and we kick it off with a double interview where I join Omoke’s show and he joins ours.
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In Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast show we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
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What goes through your mind when you hear these words? We all probably quickly have our thoughts ready. But hold on a second. Just as we often talk about farmers without asking them, we often talk about the African continent without asking people who actually live there. So we never fully grasp how big, how interesting, how potential, how fundamental it is in our regenerative future. In this series, we try to do it differently. We'll be talking to amazing regenerative entrepreneurs on the continent, but obviously not the best suit to do that. And that's we won't be going and doing this alone. We're collaborating and co-hosting this series with Brian Omic, aka the organic guy, who has been deep in the organic agroecological space for the last 10 years. We'll be co-hosting a number of conversations. We'll both interview different guests and build upon each other's episodes, and we kick it off by a double interview. I joined Brian show and he joins ourselves. Will we get it perfect? No. Will we have a lot of fun? Doing it? Yes. Most young people this century will be born there. Most land is farmed by smaller farmers who barely make anything. And it is hit hard, really hard to make climate change. So all of us better get to work. But what are the big myths, the big pitfalls when foreigners, especially investors and entrepreneurs, come to this continent and try to quote unquote help poor farmers? Yes, we'll be talking about gates, GMOs, decolonization, and all the good stuff. And of course, get into what Brian sees as the big opportunities and what he would do if he could be invested. One billion dollars. And of course, the magic one question. Enjoy. This episode is part of the Regenerative African series, where we interview leading regenerative agroecological entrepreneurs across East Africa. It's a special collaboration with the Organic Guy Podcast and supported by Rutico, a regenerative venture studio rooted in East Africa. This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food Podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities, and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Welcome to another episode. Today our guest is on a mission to leave an organic life. Welcome, Brian. Thank you very much for having me. And this is a very special one. I have the feeling I say way too many special, but not everything can be special. But this definitely is because it's the beginning of a series where we're gonna take a deep dive in the organic and the regenerative side of the African continent, which makes me extremely happy. I've been there only a few times, but of course interacted a lot through Hannes of Rutaco, and a shout-out to him as well. We've had a few episodes based there, but really spread out over the region. And so it's time for a proper deep dive because so much is happening. And I couldn't wish for a better co-host on a number of these episodes than you, because you have been the organic guy, such a great name, amazing podcast, 76 episodes, I think, when we're recording this. So when you're listening to this, you're over 80 for sure, and really been building a force in the African ecosystem, East Africa, but also beyond that, because I think you your reach is quite large. So I'm looking forward to this conversation as a kickoff for an amazing series. And to start with a personal question, because I think we should introduce you to our audience at least, or people that don't know you yet, but that will very soon, is how did you roll into this life, or how come you spend most of your waking hours looking at talking to, uncovering, let's say, the hidden world of soil and everything that happens? Like, why this definitely not easy career compared to so many other paths you could have chosen?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a very good question. And first of all, thank you very much for having me. I've been a huge admirer of your work, honestly. I think when I was looking to start my podcast, you're one of the podcasts that were in the scene. So it has always been a dream of mine to be on your podcast or to have like you on my podcast. So this is a dream come true to say in a lot of ways. So I really appreciate it. Yeah, that's a good question. I grew up in in the rural parts of Kenya, so just to give you a little bit of context, this is an agricultural area. Like when you're growing up, you are expected to help out during the farm. So in this area, like the average land is about two hectares. Uh, this is a small-scale farming area. So like most of the farmers are growing a little bit of everything. So they have a cow, they have goats, they have chickens. When it comes like to vegetables, they have everything like the need in their day-to-day lives. So when you grow in this kind of background, like you are every single day, you are in one way or form involving yourself in agriculture, right? When you go to school, you're expected to come back, take care of the animals, take care of the chickens. When it's harvesting season, when it's planting season, you're expected to help out during the farm. But interestingly, growing up, our parents encouraged us to look for different professionals, right? So there were other areas where you could make money to get out of poverty. And one of those areas, of course, is like you need to be a doctor, an engineer, a lawyer, all this kind of professional. So this was like the go-to professional. So agriculture was, yes, part of life, but it's not something you are expected to pursue. And that was my case as well. But I did my bachelor's in agriculture coincidentally, mainly because I didn't get the qualifications that you need to pursue these other careers to become a lawyer and a doctor. And I looked around at the options I had, and agriculture was the closest thing that sounded familiar to me. Right. So yeah, I chose that. I did my bachelor's in agriculture. And when I was doing agriculture my bachelor's, something strange happened. And at that time, we were doing like a course on organic agriculture. And I remember the lecturer coming in class and teaching us what organic farmers do, what practice, what practices they sort of employ on their farms. And everything sounded pretty familiar because like I grew up doing all these things, whether it's like crop rotations or using compost or using manure. So everything sounded very familiar, and that's how like I had this get to learn more what is organic farming and what does it entail. And then yeah, in 2016, I started a blog called Think Organic, and so just basically writing about organic farming, what it is, and what practices they do, and I got a little bit of traction. So I got a lot of people asking about hey, how do we get into organic or what does it involve? How do we get organic products? And that blog metamorphosized into like an e-commerce platform. So right now it's it operates as an e-commerce platform, which is uh Think Organic. And in 2020, I was very lucky also to be involved like in a local TV show, so for like entrepreneurs, because of the work I was doing with Think Organic. And so that gets me into the insights of how content works or what it takes to produce content. And then COVID hit in 2020, I got into producing uh podcasts, and yeah, since then it's been this experimentation and trying to get more farmers or people involved in the organic sector on the regenerative agriculture side, come get to understand like what also got them into this, like what has been the experiences. And I must say it's been a fulfilling path for me to follow up to this point.
SPEAKER_01:And it I think it's interesting because it must sound very familiar for many more on the conventional agriculture side, in say in the global north. I don't like the term, but let's use it like that. That definitely the parents don't encourage you to take over the farm, or they hope maybe, or the children are like, I'm not gonna get an act. Like they've seen the struggle. And in that case, it's a profession, but not one that really works anymore. And they some go in and come back, etc. But many like try to get as far away as possible as they can. And they might come back with different ideas that do it differently, but you see, this sort of new generation often comes from and not comes from a farming background, comes from another background, basically. And yeah, it might be too personal, but definitely answered if you want to. But what do you your parents now think, or like you came back to agriculture, but in a very different way, like through TV, through a company, through podcasts. But you are definitely not a lawyer or or an engineer or a doctor. So how did that land, let's say, in the in the family?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, apparently it's become like a full circle because I grew up in this like sort of era of like helping out in the farm, but not really involved in it at all. But it has evolved into now inheriting the farm itself. So right now, like the farm that I used to work on, I've been now been given like the mantle of taking care of the farm and seeing how the farm runs and upgrading and and making it like a farm that we can get products from and also sell the produce to get income from it. So looking hand-side, it seems like everything was preparing me to this point where I am. But yeah, it's quite interesting how everything works when you look it backwards. But when when I was young, everything seems like a punishment. But now I'm always feeling like grateful that I'm in this point where I can help and yeah, pull like the all farm and the yeah, and the more more sustainable and make it more useful. Because right now, if I wasn't in that place, that farm could probably be not be putting into use that it is right now.
SPEAKER_01:So, how different is it now? Like, if we what are you growing, you larger than you with family and support? What should we imagine? This is an audio medium, so please bring us with some visual cues, like what should we see, smell, temperature? Like, what's the what's the landscape like if we would close our eyes and walk on your farm?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, this is it's a five-acre farm, and the thing about it, it's like on the hill side of uh Kisi. So I come from uh like a western part of Kenya, so it's Kisi, and the area is hilly, and yeah, when you come there, it's like there's a lot of trees around like a forested area, and so like we have two hectares, so that is set aside for like livestock. So we have like five livestock, so two for milk, and then we have hayfresh there, and then the other part, one hectare is a forested area, so the farm itself is close to a river, so towards like downstream, we have like a maybe a quarter of an acre with forests, and I have an acre full of avocados, so this is like a new project that I've embarked on as well, and also we have like the traditional stuff that we always grow, right? We have maison beans, so that's like every season, and then we have the traditional sort of yeah, crops that we grow millet, sorghum, and when you come to like vegetables, we have like the local vegetables from indigenous amaranth, we have nightshades, we have like sugarcane, which has been part of the farm itself. It's like that one signature crop when you come to the farm that you have to get, and of course, being kissy, we have bananas as well. So it's still a mixed farm, but now it's more structured, and when you walk into the farm, you know exactly where everything is, and now it feels more like a farm where people can come, uh, my neighbors can come in and try to learn the compost part that we have on the farm, how it works, and how they can implement it into the farm. So it's become like a satellite farm where other farmers in the village can come and see what sustainable organic agriculture looks like.
SPEAKER_01:And what have you seen change? Have you been in this you've been in the space for quite a while since 2016, writing about organic agriculture, etc. Like what's the context and how has the context shifted or changed the maybe the interest, the attention or not for this type of agriculture in your country and also the region?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we've been lucky to have a lot more innovations, but what is people coming in with different kinds of innovations nowadays? We have things like irrigation, so we have like companies taking irrigation to farmers or giving inputs to farmers, so there's that sort of a conventional way of looking at things to small-scale farmers, right? So there's this conventional way for you to grow your produce, you have to have this particular input, and so a company is coming to into that area trying to solve that problem. And we also have like majority of the farmers don't have the resources to actually adopt this particular practice. So, in by a large extent, they are still small-scale farmers, like they they do what they've been doing for a long time. When it comes to like planting seasons, they're probably going to plant where they have always planted. So that's maize and beans in our case, or they have bananas, or they have sugarcanes, or they're planting sweet potatoes. So they have those things that they are likely to use in the farm, and by a large extent, that's what most farmers are actually doing, mostly because they don't have the resources for them to be able to do otherwise, to be honest. And so that's where majority of the farmers are, but we have a very small minority who are trying to adapt the modern, what you can call like the latest farming practices. Like now, for example, they are purchasing fertilizers, they're purchasing like pesticides to use in their farms. So there's that extent, but by a large extent, most of the farmers are still practicing traditional farming practices, and mostly because they don't have the resources to do otherwise on what's available to them.
SPEAKER_01:And on the organic side, like the people you interview, the people you follow definitely see that as a profession as something you can think of an episode like how to become a millionaire with a few hectares, which is not clickbait, actually. The guy explains how. Of course, millionaire in different currencies, but like this is a potential profession. This is as interesting, if not more interesting, than being becoming a lawyer, also to just show to parents like look, you can aspire that your children become that. Like that scene of people, let's say, stepping into the organic and regenerative space with a clear entrepreneurial mindset. How is that context? How is that bubble going? Like, are there is that growing? Is that an easy group to find, or is it really looking for like a need in a haystack?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, by a large extent, still a niche, but we are in this like very interesting situation where you have a lot of unemployment. This is like across Africa, maybe 60, 70 percent unemployment. And a lot of the youths are looking for ways to make themselves busy and make uh a living for themselves. And agriculture has turned out to be this sector that's a lot that can absorb a lot more of this unemployed youth. And that's why you see, like, yeah, one of my best performing podcasts I did was how can we how can you convert your piece of land into actually help you make more money, right? And so you have a huge contingent of unemployed youth looking into agriculture and trying to see ways they can make money for themselves, and the but the problem is they're looking for like the quick fixes, so they don't have like long-term thinking of how things should work, and that's I think where we have a lot of problems. And then to a large extent, you also have the middle class who have some money and don't know what to do with it, and they're looking for something to invest in. And agriculture is now becoming that option for them because in one way or another, you find like they have bought a land and the land is just idle, they're not using it to that extent because they probably were sold, hey, it's good to have a piece of land just as an investment, but for a long time they have it been having it just sitting there, not being put into use. So they are also looking for ways they can invest in that land, and these are the kind of people now who have the luxury to think long-term and aware, like what's happening in terms of climate change and why we should take over uh care of our soils. They probably watched the latest sort of climate documentary trying to make them to be like eco-conscious. So these are the people who have the resources and are willing to be involved in the agriculture from a sustainable farming point of view, but they don't have the knowledge itself, the agricultural knowledge. So they're looking for like third party to help them with all that process without themselves being involved in it. So you have those two kinds of people colliding, and I think there's a huge opportunity there for information. That's why like this podcast is becoming more popular. People are looking for information, how we can use that information and start our own adventures to make money and make or use our sort of idle land into use. So there's a huge contigence of people in those two categories.
SPEAKER_01:And yeah, you could imagine if the first group gets trained and has access to the information, they could really serve well the second group if there's a matchmaking, and of course, if you figure out long-term contracts, and of course, if you there's an interesting paradynamic that definitely always between land holders and let's say land stewards or land workers is often goes wrong, but also gives a huge opportunity. And when people like from the money perspective, throw you a question, like, okay, so why does organic make more sense from a pure money perspective? I I get the climate piece and I get the health piece, etc. But from a money perspective, why does it make more sense? What's your normal go-to answer? Yeah, not to convince people, but just I'm curious, I'm always curious for narratives because we need more better narratives.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely. At the end of the day, everybody's looking how they can make money. And for me, I've seen that organic agriculture is the only farming system that can give them that. And we have a scenario where organic has the systems in place for you. Like to if you walk into a market, you can prove that hey, the product that I'm using is actually organic, so it has those systems already in place and differentiates you from a huge majority of the products that are already in the market.
SPEAKER_01:You mean products as an inputs and things like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but mostly like once you go into organic and produce, start producing your products, are differentiatable in the marketplace because now you can come and say, Hey, my products are organic. And when I was talking like the upper middle class, these are people who are aware of what they want to eat, right? And one of the most marketable words to use is that I have organic products that I'm trying to sell, so it's it resonates, and a lot of people have a clear idea of what it means when they say that my product is organic, right? So they there's that part of hey, if I grow my produce organically, I have a market already. And we see this in terms of like export markets as well. The European Union is very strict in terms of like exporting products. Products to them. And one of the easiest ways, and a lot of exporters have come to discover, is that you better grow your products organically now because you don't have to worry about like the high levels of uh yeah, chemicals you're using in the farm, or they can yeah, that can be returned back on the airport. So there's that money incentive of hey, if I go organic and grow organic, I'm more likely to get market for my products if I grow my products otherwise or conventionally.
SPEAKER_01:And what do you see as the difference, if all at all, because uh it really depends how you practice organic, between organic and regenerative? Like is that getting is that resonating as well or more with the farming side? And how does the term regenerative get perceived in your context?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's still, I will say majority. If you walked on the streets and asked 10 people about regenerative, probably one will have an idea of what that means. It's not bad. 10%, that's pretty okay. Yeah, it's pretty okay, but I guess like in the agricultural context, like majority of the people assume the they are doing organic to some extent, but now there's a difference between like just practicing organic and actually being organic certified. And the thing I say with that, what you find like a lot of um local NGOs are more supporting agroecology than any other farming system, than organic or regenerative. So a lot more people are aware of agroecology than regenerative or uh organic farming system, and the reason why a lot of NGOs are into that because agricology is involved in social aspects where you'll hear a lot of them use things like social justice or food sovereignty, which sort of more resonates more with the local population, right? So if you come to this context and say, people, hey, have you heard about food sovereignty? And it's more likely to resonate with them because a certain community is more used to consuming maize, maybe maize, right? So agricology is seen as this farming system that supports their way of living. Or you go into a certain community and tell them, hey, you're more likely to consume bananas, so that's food sovereignty. So it has this sort of socio activist way of thinking that is more resonating to the local population than organic or conventional to a large extent.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, which is an interesting piece, as I think we see a certain shift now in Europe, in the European Commission, and the talk on is less on seems to be less on sustainability and more on resilience, and more towards, okay, how do we how do are we less dependent from imports? Not that we're ever going to grow quantities of bananas, but in general, in terms of flows, and I think many places slowly start to realize that they're very dependent and very fragile when it comes to a boat that blocks a channel. When was it last year in in Egypt? Or and suddenly things stop. And organic and specific agroecology and of course regen make you less dependent on a lot of outside inputs and make you less dependent on a lot of outside markets to a certain extent. And not that we have to outer-produce everything and we have to completely be independent, but it creates much more buffer and much more flexibility and much more anti-fragility almost in the system. And but that conversation is hasn't really landed, I think, with anybody in the supermarket here, to be honest, because we're just used to everything shows up, and if it's not one banana, it's the other banana until, like in COVID or somewhere, it's suddenly empty, and then but we forget two weeks later, we already forgot again. Like I don't know what will be needed because we're so spoiled with a supply chain that just works with all the costs obviously involved. But yeah, the supply chain just delivers and water comes out of the tap and electricity runs and etc. etc. And so there's but I see the first signs of some shifting conversation, especially in bigger companies, et cetera, that have to source from many different places that resilience is becoming the thing. Like it's not a nice to have, like unless you invest in your supply chain, it's just not going to come for that price anymore, if at all. And so we're seeing that, but it's still very early. But it's interesting to hear that it seems much more baked into the context already, much more people are aware. And of course, then you have the whole activism peace, and a lot of that's why I find agriculture so interesting. So many of the big questions you're forced to ask when you start asking questions about agriculture, from ownership, colonialism to inequality to health, education, like all of them touch soil at some point. I'm sorry, that's a very long-winded, not really a question. But what I wanted to ask is actually have you seen some have you seen shifts like since COVID as well? COVID has been an interesting moment in the food space, I think. But since COVID, then we got back to normal to a certain extent. But last years, because it's been a few years now, have you seen what are other shifts or trends or things in your region when it comes to food systems change?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and yeah, this probably comes more from the consumer's side of view. And yeah, at that time I I ran an e-commerce system that used you used that supplies organic products to people, and that was actually where we saw like a very high demand for organic products because yeah, during COVID, everybody was worried about their health, and organic was this food that could help you improve your immunity and make you more resistant to COVID. So there's that. Was that a thing?
SPEAKER_01:Sorry to interrupt, was that health piece? Because it's interesting how I'm still battling with people, or not battling, like that notion of how you grow food really changes what is in it and does what it does to you. Like you are what your food ate. Research is there, we've been pondering over it for a long, but somehow that most people, if I would ask 10 people on the street here, I don't think nine out of ten would say, Oh, it would be nice if there's research enough. Like, there is like a hundred years worth of anyway. That notion was that's not an issue you're saying. Like many people made that click and that connection instantly.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, definitely. A lot more people were asking questions and what I can do to help improve my immunity, and organic products were on top of that list, and so that one helped, I think, shifted more to like suppliers to ask, hey, how can we get more organic products? And yeah, that also trickled down to farmers and trying to see, hey, maybe is there a room for me to grow organic organic products? And let's not forget, actually, a lot of the farmers who supply our um cities. So, for example, in Nairobi are small-scale farmers, and most of the produce that they grow for sale, they're actually consuming that food themselves, so they have an incentive as to why they should like grow high-quality products first for themselves and then second for the market. So, yeah, there was definitely that shift, and I think that also helps in the in sort of activist space, also that brought out the in terms of like using synthetic uh pesticides, and it's been a huge campaign here in Kenya, especially, trying to let in the lawmakers and just try to see the devastating effects of what these pesticides are causing, one for our farmers, and second into like our environment, right? And in most cases, most of the farmers, most of the small-scale farmers who grow produce, they are very close into a river. So you can imagine is probably growing vegetables and is spraying these chemicals. When it rains, all these chemicals go downstream into the rivers, and downstream, there's a farmer there who is also feeding his cow or is putting this water into a cow, or is there someone who is spraying this water into the food systems? So I think that helped both the consumers, the farmers themselves, and also the lawmakers to pause a little bit and say, hey, is there something we can do to help this situation and make it a little bit better? And I think that conversation also spilled down to like a sustainable food system. Can we adopt ecology, regenerative, and organic farming system to help us get through such a problem?
SPEAKER_01:And and that conversation has been received, let's say, or there's a there's a resonance with lawmakers and policymakers, because that's what we, I'm using larger we, let's say Western Europe or Europe in general, and in the US, let's say lawmakers and policymakers haven't really been listening at all to this conversation. How's been the resonance and how has been the reception of these kinds of conversations in Kenya?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'll say it's been pretty good. So for example, in Kenya we have what like we call counties, so it's uh something similar in the US where they have like states. And so far we've had about eight counties that have an agroecology policy. So this is where like they are like, hey, I think agroecology is good for our farmers and it helps them mitigate other practices that may be used in the farming system. And yeah, I think in the in 2022, we also had like agricology policy that was established in our Kenyan parliament. So you can say there's definitely been that shift to like lawmakers themselves saying, hey, there's this farming system, and I think that that is useful. And something that I always find interesting. So in this case, we have like the agricology policy, and when you talk into a larger context, then everybody involved from organic farmers to region farmers, they're on the same page. So they see agroecology as this vehicle they can use to get into the table and have a larger discussion about organic and regenerative and sustainable farming system. So to that extent, ecology has been at the forefront of yeah, helping people who might not necessarily like yeah, want to have this conversation also get into the table, be it consumers, be it farmers, and be it lawmakers.
SPEAKER_01:And what's been the biggest pushback, or where is the biggest resistance or barrier, or yeah, what has been the biggest challenge in that sense?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think it's been more of uh research, like replicability, where you can walk into a farm and actually say, hey, this is how this works. No, now, for example, in the example of agricology, it's so hard to measure what a particular agricology farm is like achieving, right? So is it food production, is it helping like our environment to some extent? Is it empowering farmers to get more money for their produce? So I think there is that discon disconnect a little bit, and yeah, a lot more people are asking how we can see this proof of concept. This is something that you're saying that works very well for farmers and can work very well for us consumers. Where can we go and see it? Where has it been done? Where is it can see some sort of success in it? So I think that has been a little bit of a pushback, and also the system itself, right? So in Kenya, for example, we have fertilizer subsidies, so we have our whole system that is ingrained into promoting a particular way of farming, right? So this is something that they've been doing since the 1980s. They've been looking for farmers, supply them with synthetic fertilizers, and we have a strong sort of input system in the country as well, right? We have international organizations like Bay are now in the country who are very bound and they have like the resources to promote their products and to farmers, and they have the resources to give money to extension officers to say, hey, go to farmers and tell them this product works. So there's that problem of like proof of concept and also like that system of yeah, a lot of entities that are have the resources to push their narratives into farmers. So and it's a little bit more hard, it's a little bit harder for farmers to adopt new system that they're not sure if it's gonna work or not. And yeah, they're more likely to go to say, and you know what, I've been doing this for this whatever how many years, and this is what I'm gonna do. And yeah, that's that has been the biggest pushback from yeah, from farmers and also from like consumers were involved in this space.
SPEAKER_01:And shifting gears a bit to the financial side of things, let's say we do this in Nairobi, in a theater, and in the financial heart of the country, probably the region, I'm guessing. And so the room is full of investors investing their own money, investing other people's money, and our foundations, some insurance, some pension funds, etc. Some banks, of course, maybe some agriculture banks would be interesting. What would be your main message to them? Or what would be something you want them to remember from an evening with, of course, a lot of stories, with some beautiful imagery, some really good food, uh, but the next day they might forget because people forget. If there's one C you can plant in in the minds of the leading financiers of the country, what would that be?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, it will be you are investing like in an ecosystem, and and yeah, the first thing that you have to do is you have to think in in terms of long term. You're not going to get like you're investing dollars immediately, let's say like two or three years. And I think this is something I've also noticed with a lot of organic farmers, or like a conventional farmer who wants to go to organic. Idea, idealistically, if you're converting from conventional to organic, it's supposed to take you about four years. And yeah, I think I had a farmer, an organic farmer, who said it's actually takes you five years to convert your soil in from dead into a living soil again. So, and we all know like at the heart of organic or regenerative farming is the soil. So, if it's going to take you about five years to actually make your soil living again, for an investor, is like so you're telling me have to wait five years to see some kind of result, right? So definitely a patience mindset, because here you're dealing with nature, and nature has its own pace in terms of how it works it likes to work, so you're not necessarily going to put it on a pedestal and hurry it's for example. Uh what we see in like in the software industry or like in the SaaS business, you're like, hey, you need to eat these numbers before quarter four, and that's a little bit different in in the agricultural space, right? So have that patience mindset and understand that whatever you're investing in is you're investing in nature, and that's gonna take a little bit of a little bit of time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I don't remember who said it, but and if you pull the grass, it's not gonna grow faster. If you probably graze it properly, uh it does. Anyway, time is I would say we still have to look into like all the answers we got to this question over 400 episodes now. But my hunch is that one of the main ones is time. Like you need to be patient, and we're okay with that. In like a big part of the financial sector is doing infrastructure, is doing solar, is doing real estate. Nobody asks their money back in two years. And so it's also that I don't know, software taught us that speed is possible, but it doesn't mean it's everywhere. Even the most interesting software companies probably took quite a while to get going and had to pivot a few times. And if we switch the tables and you are in charge of a large investment portfolio, let's say a billion dollars, which is a lot of money, and at the same time, not so much if we look at the massive agriculture challenges in the region, but you have to put that to work, and it could be very long term, it could be completely in your terms. Obviously, we're not giving investment advice, but I'm looking at what would be big buckets, what would be big focus areas, priorities if you had basically an insane amount of money that I'm not saying anybody should have that concentrated wealth, but let's say it happened: mistake at the bank, or somebody you didn't know passed far away and said, okay, everything goes to the organic guy and he knows what to do with it, and what would be your way of approaching that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a very good question. And I think if you are if I was to put in like the local African context, and uh yeah, if you look at the statistics, like 80%, probably 70% of the food that we produce in the country comes from small-scale farmers. And yeah, in this case, small-scale farmer is probably two hectares of land, so it's such a small piece of land compared to like Europe or someone in the USA who you know is who is into farming, so that's like a home state or something. And uh, and there's something else is that farmers in the African context grow a little bit of everything, like I said, it's they're growing different kinds of vegetables in their farm, and if you contrast that to like Europe or in the USA, you have like just one farmer growing maybe corn or just soybeans or maybe wheat, so they are very highly specialized. So, yeah, my goal will be like, how can I use this strength of our small-scale farmers we have, and they have this small pieces of land, and this is something also I've seen a lot of yeah, international organizations who come to Africa struggle with, right? Things like Belinda and Melinda Gates, who have invested millions and millions of dollars into Africa, and their first instincts is like, hey, probably these farmers, what they need is GMOs, let's just drop them GMOs, or what they need is just more fertilizers to help them grow, but that hasn't worked so far.
SPEAKER_01:And one thing that's fascinating documentaries and reports on how the efforts of the gate, again, I don't think it's a I see people going in big conspiracies, etc. I think they really mean or meant well, they just completely don't understand agroecology nor biology nor local context, and that's just a recipe for disaster. Anyway, so yeah, I get over.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think like understanding that local context is pretty important, and uh it's also the same thing we've seen like to agri tech that come into Africa as well. They they realize pretty quickly like Africa doesn't have systems. It's sad, but it's true. There's when you build like an app, let's say where a farmer wants to access all the inputs, yeah. You quickly realize you need to have like a logistics system. How do these inputs get to farmers? Or like, okay, these farmers might not have the kind of access, so that maybe they don't have internet, so how will they access to my app, right? So you quickly realize you need to build sort of an ecosystem for the products that you have to do that, and for me, I will probably approach it in ways like how can I utilize these particular specific things, small-scale farmers, very subsistent farming, and this is how they have done things for a long time. So, how can I impact them? And one of the things that I'll probably do is put up like regenerative learning labs, right? So, this is where you walk into a village, set up a farm where other farmers can come and see what is actually going on, like your farm discipline. Yeah, like sort of satellite farms where they actually come and experience. What does being a regenerative farmer do? Right? What does no tillage mean? What does crop rot rotation in your farm mean? So once they can look at this and see, and they're like, oh, actually, yeah, this one works, right? Sort of you've changed their mindset and shifted how they look at agriculture. And that might take a long time, maybe take two, three years to actually prove that this system works. So once you've convinced them and shown them that actually works, and then the next challenge comes, they're like, okay, we can do all this on our farm, but how will we make money from this? Right. And now that's where you now establish another sort of system where they have access to markets, right? So once they can grow this, their produce regeneratively, they can actually sell, and this can be a cooperative where they come together whatever small produce they have produced, put it together, and then yeah, have market access. And then once they have done that, now it's up to you now to add value to this produce and market them and put them into market. So through that, I think what you've done takes a long time, but what you've done is you've created a system that enables them to actually do regenerative agriculture meaningfully. And unfortunately, yeah, you're not going to do like a plug and play, you're not going to have like a one solution, and uh, yeah, maybe a technology that's gonna come probably like harvest carbon or and yeah, farmers can get farming credits. So that's not gonna work, it's a plug and play um solution. But I truly believe for you to do that, you have to have like a mindset shift first from the farmers. The farmers have to be, you know what, I'm convinced I like what this can do for me, I like this what can do to my farm. And I do think when I do this, uh I'm gonna make money from it, and that's gonna help like take my children to school or like build a house or like do whatever things I want to do. And if we can do that, then I think it will be a very good use of money in the long term as well.
SPEAKER_01:And double-clicking on that mindset piece, what do you see from people coming from like foreigners coming from outside the region, let's say mainly, or even from other other countries, but let's say mainly outside? What's the biggest mindset shift that you see needed, or the biggest misconceptions? Or you must have seen many people that think, oh, we're gonna go and fix agriculture, or we're gonna fix hunger, or etc. etc. Which of course never happens, or at least not in that way. What's the mindset shift with people coming in from outside, basically, with grandiose plants and things like that? Yeah, frustration there, I'm also asking for frustration.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's more of like not understanding that the local farmers that you are trying to help have their way of doing things. Like they they have been doing agriculture in a certain kind of way, and they have their own knowledge of doing things, like they have their own knowledge of preventing pests and diseases, they have their own way of crop rotation, right? And uh, they have their own way of like how they like to take their products into the market. So, for example, one crop rotation system that is gonna work in the coastal part of Kenya is not probably going to work in the western part of Kenya because those are two different sort of environmental conditions where two different crops are going to grow. So once you understand like there is a very different context on how you want to like approach your solutions, then that makes you work a little bit easier in terms of convincing farmers. And uh, this is where now you need like local sort of extension officers who understand how different farmers think or what their problems are, because you might come in and say, I think this is their problem, they don't have markets or they don't have access to finance, but probably they have access to finance, but they don't have the skills for them to actually convert that finance into something useful. So you have to be willing and open to learn from the locals themselves through the knowledge that they've gained over time and try and see what way you can integrate or plug into that knowledge they already have.
SPEAKER_01:And where do you think different? This comes from a question that John Kemp always asks or usually asks. Where what do you believe to be true about regenerative agriculture that others don't, or agricology in this case, even on the bigger umbrella term? So, where do you think contrarian, where do you think different when it comes to regenerative or agricology?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that is like a foreign, like it's an alien concept, especially like from an African context. And when you break it down like what agricology does or what regenerative does, you will find in one way or shape or form like our grandfathers used to do it. Whether it's agroforestry, whether it's crop rotation, whether it's intercropping, whichever whichever like practice that is being done in the regenerative and agricology system, in one way or form you'll find it was done by our ancestors before. So I think there is also a bit of like uh reluctance from farmers to try and say, hey, this system you're bringing us, it's foreign, it's not who we are.
SPEAKER_01:But if you need to push it in a corner, this is another foreign concept. Well, you're saying actually it's indigenous.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's part of who we are, it's this is what we've always done. It's just maybe a different names, it has like different names, but the concepts themselves and what is being done has always been done by our ancestors.
SPEAKER_01:And this is a frustration question in a sense, but you can do something about it if you have a magic wand and you could change one thing, but only one thing overnight. So if you can fix something or you can change, we've heard things from subsidies to mindset and everything in between. So it can be as practical or non-practical. It is magic, so you can actually do whatever you want, but only one thing. What would that be?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it would probably be to change like how we look at food. And I think nowadays, for a long time, we see food as something that gives us energy, but I think if we can start seeing food as something that is meant to give us nutrients, then that sort of changes everything on how we look at food. So if we say before you like eat your apple or like your avocado or like your mango, you're like, what nutrients am I going to get from this food I'm about to eat? And once you ask that question, then it leads you to another question, and you ask, okay, how can we get this food to be more nutritious, right? And that sort of trickles down to like the soil itself. So it takes us back to the origin of how yeah, everything is supposed to be done. So when you ask that question, then it takes back to the soil bit. And I think if a lot more people had that mindset, then we can actually put more pressure on the growers of the food and they're like, hey, what are you doing about improving our soil? Because that's where the nutrients of the food we're eating comes from. And once we are able to change that mindset, then I think farmers themselves can take up the mantle and say, you know what, you're right. I think moving forward, I'm gonna be more mindful of how I grow the food that I'm gonna bring into the market. So that mindset shift, I think, will help us move into the era of now having more products, more nutritious products into the market and becomes the norm. And when you think about it, like our eyes needs nutrients for it to continue to thrive, right? Our skin needs certain nutrients for it to continue to thrive, and that primarily comes from the food that we eat. So if we stretch that and I think for it in the long term, then it shows you what can be done in terms of like uh contributing positively to our well-being by just answering the one question of hey, is the food I'm eating more nutritious for me? And then uh yeah, I think that will have a huge impact on what the kind of food that we get into our tables as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I had to think about uh if we stretch that even more, the more nutrient-dense or nutrient-quality food we eat, the more your uh mouth, your tongue, and your nose probably get not reset. We're gonna do an interview about that as well. Like, how long does it take to taste again properly, or like how do we recognize taste and flavor? Because we all have that sensor, and but we've also been spoiled with exactly the right salt and sugar quantities that is in our in processed food to make us keep eating Pringles. But maybe also your eyes, at some point you will get good again at recognizing almost from a distance what quality and taste looks like. Your nose will pick up the polyphenols, or and there's an interesting journey there, I think, that we depending on, of course, how you've been eating, but have to go through to to be able to not just be dependent on a little measuring device or something, like we need to do that, and then there's a whole cooking part, of course. Like, how do you prepare? How do you process in a good way those things? How that health piece, we talk about it a lot in in Europe, also the yes, because we're in an absolute massive health crisis, and we hope that this is the key to unlock a lot of things, and but very few signs are signaling at the moment. There's a lot of research, but food is medicine entrepreneurs, let's say, they're far and in between. But we see that as a potential. How is that discussion on health, like after COVID as well? Like, how is that is there a buzz? Is there a growing uh awareness of this mango is fundamentally different than this mango because it's been grown differently? How is that in in your region?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's still far, but the quite interesting bit of it as for us who grew like in the village, when we come into the cities, we cannot be able to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The food is completely different, especially for like bananas or like yeah, oranges, or like this, or even like vegetables that we eat nowadays, like you can tell it just tastes different. And I guess mostly because nowadays, when you walk into like a local supermarket, your banana, it's quite ironic, but your banana and your fruits are probably going to be imported from South Africa or like from Egypt. It's pretty much disappointing because these are things that we can actually grow ourselves here. But the way I think nowadays, like a consumer when it goes to the market, they want to see like a blemish sort of banana in the shelves or like a mango in the shelf. So, and most of the products you're going to get like from your local area, it's not going to be like nearly as blemish as what you'll see in the supermarket. So, I think there's this confusion of like everything that is so perfect is good for you automatically, it's more nutritious, it's gonna taste better. But yeah, it's quite disappointing when you get to see them different test butts. And this is also something I've noticed, maybe it's something that I'm conscious about because I'm into organic and stuff. When I was Europe as well, I could actually test the difference between an organic when I bought like an organic banana and a regular banana in the supermarket, especially in Newbossy or the Netherlands. You studied in Balkan, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry for the bad supermarket, not the best place to shop. Yeah, so you could actually taste the difference, and that how do you think it's a good idea?
SPEAKER_01:You did blind taste, very interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think this is maybe if people become more conscious about like the different taste, maybe you can notice it. But nowadays, like the way we eat food is just we are most of the time we are not even concentrating on eating food. We're eating food, we're watching something, so you're not probably going to that's the difference. But there is a difference once you are used to a certain kind of food.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, it's very I keep wondering how we unlock that. Is it the data about the health? We know data is never enough. Is it tasting? Is it like experience? Like what is the unlock, not for everyone, but for the next group, not just the health conscious, not just the organic focused people, the bubble, obviously, but like the next 20% or next 15% that goes. We need to start buying this consciously. But I was I might be out actually when this conversation is out, or maybe not, but I was on a farm in Italy and they are producing a lot of different tomato varieties and selling locally in their own shop. And then they got complaints from the local supermarket that people started buying less tomatoes there because, of course, they imported them ironically from Spain or from somewhere else instead of Italy. So that's how global supply chains work. But the supermarket owner was buying at the farm, wasn't eating his own tomatoes basically. So there was a very ironic in there. So the farmer was thinking, yes, just stop selling quote-unquote shitty tomatoes because you've tasted them. You prefer ours. Like, why do you and so there's this interesting tension, and then the wheels of the different are starting to create not break yet, but you feel that there's even not the health-focused one, even not the soil-focused ones, are starting to pay attention to that, not nearly enough. So I'm really wondering what is needed to hopefully not another pandemic or some other huge health crisis, because this feels like a slow-motion train crash, basically, if you look at the health numbers of most places, and it's not slowing down yet. Although there is a perfect storm, quote unquote, with of course Ozempic and the GPL1 medicines starting to and AI starting to make purchasing decisions are just a Walmart and OpenAI announcing a partnership. So there might be a lot of change happening that we yeah, it's happening in the next years, but it's still such a weird piece that we pay more attention almost to skincare than we pay to put stuff that we put in our mouth. Yes. Anyway, that's a whole different thing. We're gonna do a skincare. No, we're not gonna do a skincare series. Maybe we'll see. With that, I think it's a perfect amount to wrap ups. Actually, what we're gonna do in the rest of this series is very interesting. We're gonna do a few conversations together. So as a co-host, we're gonna do a few back and forth where you interview someone first and then I interview after, and the other way around. And of course, we did this one where we interview each other, and we'll soon record one for your channel as well. So you'll hear both of us a lot in uh in the next months, and really to put a spotlight on a buzzing ecosystem that we can learn a lot from, and we should know what's happening in in East Africa and Africa in general. It's such a massive continent, they always forget, or at least remember the huge map. If you put all the countries in, you can fit many of the continents plus a few more on the continent. You always remember when you fly over. I think this is the really big of possibilities in terms of growing, of course, a lot of challenges, but a lot of possibilities. I remember Tekla and Gaes of Grounded, who are very active in South Africa and also in East Africa, sometimes saying it's easier to do region here because there's not so much a subsidy system behind it. There's not in grind, there's an activity, there's a notion of doing things and results very quickly compared to in certain parts in Europe, it's gonna take 10 years before a tree grows, even more. So there's uh there's so much opportunity. I think that's one of the main messages we're gonna see in this series. There's so much opportunity to do things, and it might be one of the most interesting regions to do region. The transcript is gonna have issues with this regions to do region. So I would want to thank you first of all for coming on here for making this possible together to put a spotlight on amazing return to African entrepreneurs.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you very much for having me. I'm also looking forward to yeah, having other conversations with other people in the region as well. So it's gonna be exciting as well.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I'm gonna follow your lead because yeah, I'm gonna dive into a world that I don't know too much about, and I'm looking forward to that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sounds good.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, what a moment. This is thank you first of all for listening all the way to the end. This is only the this is the start of a new chapter, a new piece as well, a whole new series, of course, looking at African, and it's a massive continent, I know, don't send the maps. We're gonna mostly look at East Africa, which is very different from other parts, I know. But this is start of a series to look at the African agroecology region entrepreneur scene, which of course, with a few conversations, we're not gonna do justice, but we're gonna definitely uh learn a lot. And I think it's a continent we often ignore, and somehow, while it is by far the biggest, and while it has a huge role to play and is already playing in the future of food production, from smaller farmers, as we learned in this conversation, to also producing a lot of commodities and a lot of cash crops and a lot of things for uh for the rest of the world as well. And I'm very happy to have Brian on board to do this, and thanks, of course, to Hannes of Routeco to make this possible, put us together, and raising this idea of we should have local voices, obviously, because I don't know the context. I've been in in a few countries in on the continent, but it doesn't qualify me at all. And so I'm very happy to have local uh voices and also to collaborate with a fellow podcaster, which is not something that happens regularly, unfortunately. So this is definitely yeah, it's gonna be an interesting deep dive. We're gonna go from activism to uh farming and all the way back again. We're gonna talk about the opportunities, the issues, decolonization, anything that has been creating opportunities and hurting the possibilities of African farmers. And so, yeah, looking forward to that. Let me know how this is for you. Let us know feedback, comments, etc., how to get in touch with us through probably the website, the contact forum. It's the easiest, and otherwise, one of the social media channels where you find us. And for now, thank you for listening to this one. I hope you enjoy this series and create some lessons learned or some insights, etc., some new things that you didn't know before. Thank you for listening all the way to the end. For show notes and links discussed, check out our website, investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/slash posts. If you like this episode, why not share it with a friend? And get in touch with us on social media, our website, or via the Spotify app and tell us what you liked most. And give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your podcast player. That really, really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time.
