Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast features the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
403 Million Belay - Why the USAID shutdown was a gift to agroecology in Africa
The difference between agroecology and regenerative agriculture is the deep social change we need in the food and agriculture system. As Laura Ortiz Montemayor told us once "ecology without social justice is just gardening". Million Belay, who leads the Alliance for Food Sovereignty in Africa, the largest social movement on the African continent, is very clear stop intervening with agriculture on the continent, stop imposing all kinds of rules, practices, seeds, inputs etc, which don’t serve in this context (and we could argue in the context we come from as well, how many European banned pesticides are exported to the continent?)
We talk about the shut down of the USAID which was actually a good shock to the system. And finally donors, which unfortunately dictate quite a bit the direction, are talking and slowly also acting around agroecology. We discuss how through lobbying they managed to get many countries to adopt agroecology policies in the last few years, what Million would do with a billion dollar and what his message for investors is.
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In Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast show we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
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This episode is part of the Regenerative African Series, where we interview leading regenerative agroecological entrepreneurs across East Africa. It's a special collaboration with the Organic Guy podcast and supported by Rutico, a regenerative venture studio rooted in East Africa. The difference between agroecology and regenerative agriculture is the deep social change we need in the food and agriculture system. As a friend of the podcast said, ecology without social justice is just gardening. Our guest of today leads the largest social movement on the African continent and is very clear. Stop intervening with agriculture on the continent. Stop imposing all kinds of rules, practices, seeds, inputs which don't serve in this context. And we could argue in the context where we come from as well how many European-banned pesticides are exported to the continent, for example. We talk about the shutdown of the USAID, which was actually a good shock to the system. And finally, donors, which unfortunately dictate quite a bit of the direction of the continent, are talking and slowly also acting around agroecology. We discuss how through lobbying they managed to get many countries to adopt agroecology policies in the last few years, which of course needs to be implemented, and what million would do with a billion dollars, and what its message is for investors. Enjoy. This is the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food Podcast, where we learn more on how to put money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities, and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return.
SPEAKER_01:Just a quick reminder: this podcast episode is uh special because it's a conversation that is part of our new series that we're calling the African Regenerative Frontrunners, a collaboration between the Organic Guy Podcast and the Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and a Food Podcast, with the support of Rutico, which is a regenerative venture studio that is based right here in East Africa. The aim of this series is really simple to bring African regenerative voices to the global stage and to facilitate conversations that will be shaping the future of food and agriculture. And today's guest is one of those voices. Milan Boley is the co-founder and the general coordinator of Alliance for Food Sovereignty in Africa, in short, AFSA, which is uh basically the largest in uh the African continent in terms of advocating for agricology, indigenous knowledge, and food sovereignty. For more than 20 years, he has been working at the crossroads of ecology, culture, and African food systems transformation. So I'm super, super excited for this conversation because, well, we might not be talking only about farming, but I think by a larger extent about the Africa future food systems. So, Million, thank you very much for making time for the podcast and welcome.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_03:Super, and thank you so much, Brian, for the intro. I'm Kuhn von Seyen, and I'm the co-host here, and I get the great honor to kick it off with a question we always like to ask because uh in in our podcast, because let's say there are easier career paths in the world than to focus on uh food sovereignty, agroecology, regeneration, uh, and farming. And so we love to ask this question uh how comes you spend most of your waking hours thinking, acting around this theme? Why why this one and not something else, something easier potentially?
SPEAKER_00:I think that it's not by design, it's a natural progression. I was working issues when I was a high school teacher. I was when I started and I was coordinating an environmental education club in the school. Then later in my life, I was involved in environmental issues also in the park and whatever. Later I started to work with the African Biodiversity Network and the continental context, and I started to move into the cultural sphere. And we had a number of connections with globally, especially with indigenous people in Colombia, Brazil, and whatever. So when I started Melka Ethiopia, the local literature, we started to work with farmers, food system. Later on, we felt that I think as the majority of Africans in some countries, like including my country, Ethiopia, since more than 80% of the people in the population is farmers or they're getting their business from farming. And some even higher, depending on farming, and the rapid erosion of also the cultural food of Africa. That told us all that food is a very important issue. So we need also to focus on that. I think also because of outside domination, we are losing so much of what we have, but what we still have is our food system. So yeah, it's a natural progression, it's not a choice.
SPEAKER_03:It makes a lot of sense, obviously, very rationally, let's say. But then when coming from the environmental space and going into the food systems, into the agriculture space, into like sovereignty, what surprised you the most, or how was that like it's a natural transition, as you explain it? It seems very logical, but still it's a choice to lean into that and not focus mostly on energy systems or waste systems, or which are all adjacent but very different. Like, how was that step stepping into the food space and agriculture space with both feet, let's say?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think the big surprise for me, yes, still I cannot say that the amount of that is how much our our thinking even and our social conversation space and our policies are dominated by very powerful narratives. The powerful narrative that says that in Africans cannot produce their food, they need agrochemicals to produce their food, they need genetically modified to produce their food, land in the hands of Africans is not productive, so we have to give it to somebody else. Policy comes from capital cities, people don't know, they are there to be directed, all those things, and so many things cooked out of the continent that are coming to Africa, and uh yeah, the level of influence that we are experiencing from all over that shocked me, it still shocks me now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, what you're talking about, and uh especially the kind of narratives that are being thrown in in front of our eyes. But the good thing is you are doing something about it, and I think you came out and established the AFSA, which is one of the largest organizations that are really trying to push agricology and how we can protect indigenous farmers as well. So, what was the idea behind it? Like what inspired you to say, you know what, I think we need AFSA in the African continent?
SPEAKER_00:We started the African Biodiversity Network in 2002. So the later years we felt that I think we cannot uh achieve what we want to achieve as a separate network. We need to bring other networks to work with us as African Biodiversity Network. Because the the issue, the agenda is much more than one single network. That was that realization. And second, we I think we realize that I think if we could create a network and do our own research, do our own analysis, and draw our own advocacy, I think we can get somewhere. And we couldn't find any other actor. And there are so many local level civil society organizations and whatever. But there was a huge gap, which is an organization which can learn and synthesize and mobilize knowledge and local groups and challenge the domination that is coming through the African Union, for example. There are very critical actors who are influencing or are still keep on influencing the African Union in the food system agenda, but very it's almost nobody who is with a voice of the multitude of Africans, who can be a voice in both in international spaces and in the local places, and then a voice which can be genuine, authentically African, which can be respected by the international civil society groups and can work also with them, you know, which can be open, which can learn. So we needed something to create uh an authentic group, an African group. That that that's what is a drive, basically. So four other networks came on 2020, 2008. Then 2009 we came to Addis Ababa, and and there were certain networks by then, and we coined the name AFSA while we were there. So the main thing is just we just wanted to create something as Africa as well.
SPEAKER_01:And I guess in hindsight, it now makes sense. I'm wondering in terms of like what brought all this organization together, like what kind of vision did you sell to them? Because I'm thinking you have organizations from West Africa, from Southern Africa, from here in East Africa, all dealing with trying to solve different issues. So, what was your pitch to them and why why do you think they agreed to be part of AFSA?
SPEAKER_00:I think the majority of them voluntarily, without us asking them to join us, and some of them we know we invited at the initial stage. But there was some kind of principles. Farmers should be leaders. A group who believed in that, a group who believed that genetically modified organisms are not good. A group who believes that intellectual property rights in food systems on the seed speaker is wrong. A group who believes that we can have an agricultural system without chemicals. By then, the name agroecology was not that much um featuring. Even in 2013, when we decided to really prove for ourselves whether agroecology works in Africa or not, very few groups working on it, but but there were a number of actors on organic agriculture, that form of agriculture, but not an organic. So so so that that is it. The main drive is what we can do together. And if we look at the first statement that we produced in Addisab in 2009, like this our declaration, it has some food and agricultural elements, and it has also some environmental elements there, also. The issue of environment was also there. Yes, basically that. I think it was also inspired by the African giants like Dr. Toldebrahan Gabrik Zavil from Ethiopia, Professor from Nigeria, and a number of people they were influential people in the field of biodiversity, people who have influenced the Convention on Biological Diversity, the Cartaina Protocol, African groups, yeah, the farmers' rights uh agenda. So they were behind us with giant individuals which were advising us, which were also looking at what we are doing. These were the issues and the sticking points among us, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and as a follow-up question or a question in that sense, what you've seen change as well over the last decades in Africa on the continent, you say there's a lot of outside influence. One of those influence is money for sure, and investment, capital with all the tensions that bring. And we love to ask this question in a different way. We all know the issues with outside capital, but if there's a message you can give to investors, people that are managing their own wealth or other people's wealth, let's say we do this in the financial capital Ethiopia in a nice theater. I like to do this not online, but like in a in in in person. And we're on stage, of course, we had a great meal, a lot of interesting, let's say, visual imagery behind, a lot of interesting for many people, maybe it's one of those they have very strong narratives in their head around chemicals, around feeding the world. And let's say in that evening we try to dismantle some of those, but also people forget. The next day they're at their laptop, they're at their computer, they're at work. What would be one thing you want invest towards financially focused people to remember from an evening like that? If we host an evening around agroecology and finance partly, what would be one seed you want to plant in the mind of people that they won't forget or can't forget anymore?
SPEAKER_00:So many questions is a good question. I think probably what I would encourage them to look at. I don't know whether I will be answering your question in a brilliant way, but we all live in the highly changing world. I think one of the agenda is the climate. Everybody hopefully understands and feels the impact of the climate crisis and also the food crisis that we are experiencing in terms of health. I think the health agenda is everybody's agenda. So, the question is what will take us out of this crisis? What will take us? What's the best way? What can tick most of the boxes? It's very much important. I think for us it's agroecology. Um it's it heals nature, agroecology heals nature, brings people together, helps revive the relationship among the communities. And the food that's produced also is healthy. But you are asking about investment. So when people say that's for the farmers, what about in terms of investment? I think if people look at the statistics in uh in Europe, in the USA and whatever, the share of, I think let's take organic agriculture as an indication and organically produced food. The share of organically produced food is increasing. People are opting for healthy foods. Wherever the food comes from, people will be happy to eat healthy foods. So investment in healthy food, healthy produced food, produced without harm in the environment, without chemicals, will pay in the ends. And it will pay for the environment, it will pay for the local communities, and it's also profitable at the end of the day for whoever invests on it. Probably that's what I would say.
SPEAKER_03:And to reverse that question or to reverse the tables, let's say somehow, and I'm not saying anyone should have this kind of concentrated wealth, but let's say it happens tomorrow morning, a faraway relative you never knew sadly passed away, and a lot of money ended up in your bank account. And we usually ask the question what would you do with a billion dollars or a billion euros or whatever currency, but like an in an insane amount of money, but you had to put it to work. And I'm not asking for exact amounts, but I'm asking what would be main buckets, main, let's say, focus areas if you if suddenly financial resources was no constraint, which again I'm not saying that's a good thing, but let's say it happens. If you had to put a billion dollars to work, what would you do? What would you focus on?
SPEAKER_00:I think I would focus it on youth, thousands of youths, uh, and in a project which can give them hope. I think the food system is a very interesting space because there's a lot of work there. We are only looking at the food production side of it, in investing, uh, in processing, in packaging, in marketing, and consumer, in converting food waste to something more. It's a lot of work in between. Yeah, there's a lot of cultural and economical activities around that. So I would invest it in an area where we can see change, yeah, so that others also emulate. But there's so many projects that are uh failed in Africa. I sometimes say that Africa is a gravestone of so many projects. So the graveyard, graveyard of so many projects. Well-meaning, yeah, but yeah, yeah, meaning, but they may problem is they assume, they have an assumption that since their idea is beautiful and whatever, then it can work. And the main problem is it doesn't start from consulting local people. I know that's a very difficult process, messy, participation is not easy, but that is a way we have to bring in bring people in. And there's a number of methodologies which you can use uh to do that. So I wouldn't rush to spend the money, but I will take time to really bring people up, to really understand, but I will invest it in the food system, and hopefully I will take so many out of where they are, and I'll make the continent much happier, continent.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a really interesting way to spend the money. And something that you mentioned that sometimes actually gets flipped for the sustainable farming system is yeah, it's well-meaning, but can you feed the world, right? So that's one of the things that is always thrown at the sustainable farming movement. But earlier you mentioned that when you were starting, agroecology was not really a thing in 2013. Organic was mentioned in there. And now we have uh regenerative agriculture, which is actually one of the uh uh titles we've given this series, the African Regenerative Front Runners. So I'm thinking, like from your perspective, when you're looking at these farming systems, do you see a difference uh in each of these farming systems or you see them as one or part of like the sustainable farming movement?
SPEAKER_00:Two questions. Are you asking me to compare regenerative, sustainable agroecology? That's one question. Second question is whether agroecology or whatever these things fit Africa in the world. Am I wrong? Yeah, you can answer, you can answer both of them. The difference between the regenerative and others uh probably is uh emphasis. Agroecology emphasizes social movement. It critics the the current food system. Our understanding that the problem that we have in the food system is not Technical. It's not a technical problem. It's not what you call it. There is a word for it. So the problem is not cannot address by reviving soil or making sure that an area which was dry gets water. Mainly probably what regeneration implies is that if you get to an area and do soil and conservation, planting and water and whatever, if a barren area becomes a forest that has it has regenerated. Which is true. Which is true, which is a lofty purpose. But the emphasis, I'm saying emphasis because I know the found the founders or the originals of the regenerative idea. We talk quite a lot together. And I know he's political. And there is an American also who passed away quite recently.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, could corners.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he's part of the and one. I was invited him to during the first conference of starting of the regenerative alliance group, also. Yeah, I know so many actors in the regenerative movement who do also criticize the political say the power religious, whatever. I know. But in general, in principle, the way I understand it also, I don't see emphasis on social movements that much, emphasis on the critics of power that much. Otherwise, the research, the revival of uh degraded areas in forests, in one area, uh healthy kind of agriculture in one creative agriculture is very so our difference is in the political side of it.
SPEAKER_01:I wanted to say uh okay, yeah. So just to emphasize, say that emphasizes on the social aspect, then social movement.
SPEAKER_00:It says agroecology is very clear. It says there are three legs, you know, which are a basis for agroecology. Like an African stuff, the one is the practices, soil interconservation, mulching, compost, all that. The second is science. Now we are increasingly emphasizing participatory action research. As a researcher, but there are a number of sciences, almost all fields. The third, which is equally important, is social movement. Why social movements are three reasons? One, the walled food system is controlled by few actors. You can go to any side of it and look at any statistics, and that's what few and fewer and fewer companies are controlling our food system. Now, ultra-processed food is a typical example when few companies control the food system and they feed you actually poison and they make you deliberately addicted to that food. And now there is no question that this is a killer kind of food. So we critique that. You know what I was writing that time with card up and now? We were fighting with card up, and that policy making process in our country was in our continent, and in so many of African countries. It's controlled by the few, by this powerful, and there is no voice. Genuine voice. They will have probably one pastoralist, one farmer participating, and he raises no farmers should be in. They take this as a participation, you see. Which is much more a joke. So so there is no genuine participation, genuine participation of local people in the policy-making process in the in in decisions that affect their life. Women, youth, you can bring all those people together. And third, and finally, is there is a need to bridging your uh gap that exists among social movements. There are the number of social movements all over in Africa and globally. Even in Europe, there are a number of social, really well-meaning movements, and in the US also there are really so many movements. So we have to come together. So, because of these three reasons, we cannot change our food system without social movement. So that is an equal emphasis with research and with practices. That's where the difference is.
SPEAKER_03:And to ask a question on that, even though it's uh uh let's say it's a magical question or it's a question where it's not let's say immediately possible, but let's say it is. If there was one thing you would change, I know there are 2,000 things to change in the food system, and but if there was only one thing, like tomorrow morning, but there could be anything from policy changes to global consciousness to banning ultra-processed food, we've heard them all. Not that we've heard them all, we've heard the full spectrum, let's say, of of things. All animals have to be have to be outside, people taste better food. Anything could work. But if there's only one thing you can change in the food system, if you had a magic wand, what would that be? What would be the one thing you would change tomorrow morning?
SPEAKER_00:It's a very difficult question because there is no there's no one thing, everything is related. It's one of those problems with a call that I forgot the name. Yeah, they're very messy problems. You change one thing, there is another one, there is another one, there is another one, there's they are very much intertwined. But probably things would start by having a proper kind of direction, an agreed direction among all of the actors which are very much important on where the direction of our food systems will go, and to agroecology, hopefully. That is that would bring that would give science to so many things, and and that will change so many things. So, yeah, I'm afraid that maybe that's not the only solution, so many things, but if I have to choose, I would go for that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, it does make sense because we have a lot of problems, and I'm sure they require a lot of solutions as well. So that makes sense. So you mentioned a little bit earlier about the progress that you've seen since you started AFSA back in 2013 to now. So I'm wondering, like, from your perspective, you can just scale it down like to Ethiopia where you are. Can you see the difference in terms of farmers who have adopted, let's say, regenerative or agroecology practices? Do you have you seen their lives improve or like their farming improve? What are you picking from the ground? Like, what are some of the examples you can share with us?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I can give you so many examples from all over the continent. What they say that they have improved, I think they have food every year. Because in an agroecological farm, different foods mature at different times, so there is no hunger. The second is there's no limitation of knowledge or practice. Some people can get agroecology wrong and they say that it's going back.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But what we're nobody is romanticizing how agriculture is happening in the continent. I know some. They say, oh no, farmers have their own said, and you know, man, it leads up kind of thing. But the size part of agroecology emphasizes that there's always things to improve in the way you do things. So you bring in farmers in with the discussion, they would add other actions that they are doing. So we have had so many farmers who are doing, for example, compost. That's not a culture of Africa. It has come in, you go to so many farmers, you find that now. And what is that you have so many flies in your garden black soldier flies?
SPEAKER_03:Sorry? The maggots, the farming of the insects.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, the maggots, yeah. That now I was in a conference sitting and somebody was talking about that methodology. And how that changes the whole farming system is incredible. So there are so many things, and I've seen some farms where that is implied and implemented, and where there are changes. The signs are everywhere, and we have taken government people to see those places or those changes, and in policy in Africa is getting that faster now. Yeah. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01:So there's that improvement in terms of them having food throughout the year without really saying, like this particular of the year, I can't get food on my farm because I grew one thing and it's over. So that does make sense as well. Kun?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, I was asking about the policy. I'm very curious. We, everyone, farmers, and like like to complain about policy, like it's never what we want it to be. But you said you're you just said we see policy changing quicker as well. Do you have some positive stories, of course, of the work you did? We are trying really hard in Brussels to change one of the largest subsidy systems in the world on farming, which is not easy. The US is attempting similar things with the farm bill. Do you have some lessons learned and some insights in how on the African continent some policies have been changing to favor actual forward-thinking agroecology farmers and not just the large agro industry?
SPEAKER_00:I think the best example is Kenya. You know, Kenya, they have 47 counties. Yes. I can be wrong, but I can't be corrected. No, you're right. 47 countries.
SPEAKER_03:Brian can correct you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. County of the county is producing an agroecology policy. Incredibly. The first county, I think it's Moringa County. Yeah, Muranga. Muranda. And they have the is incredible. They produce the policy, the structure, the strategy, after that they made a plan and they budgeted it, and they start to implement it. They've gone through all of the questions that you would ask to make sure that what their policy is implemented. What makes this very much interesting is if you are looking for in a country where there are a lot of interests and contradictions, Kenya is also the best example here. The president of the country is for GMOs, for industrial agriculture, whatever. But then they have an agroecology strategy as a country, and the county after county is producing an agroecology policy. And what is good, what's best, is they can go to the country beside them and can learn how to implement that policy into the practice. Uganda is preparing, Tanzania has an agroecology policy, uh, Ethiopia has an agroecology policy. You know what is important, though. Governments, they're good in producing policies. Maybe a funder has come, one funder, mostly GIZ or something now, I think in the case of some countries, and they give them the money for organization of different conferences, workshops, and finally, because of that interest in whatever, then and the civil society comes together and agree. Okay, that's your document, you know. But implementing it is another, a totally different story. So, where do you stand as a civil society, as a farmer group? That's why AFSA group, and me personally also, are pushing for country-level social movement. That is a bedrock of social movement. Otherwise, we can be really good as a continental network. And we're trying to be that. But if there is no movement at the country level, I think things will not work. So the social movements at the country level should pressurize the government to implement those policies. And the funders are also funders are actors. I think the good thing about agroecology is almost every European NHS and uh whatever individuals that I know are endorsing agroecology. They are endorsing agroecology. So this is a very good sign. So what we could should do now is how do you what is it on the ground? The beauty of it and the challenge of it at the same time for agroecology. It's contextual. It's very difficult to craft one kind of agroecology into another one. Very difficult, so we need to understand it and we need to do that. And uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's what I'm not sure whether I'm answering your question. No, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:And does this replace like these policies and the strategies, do they replace is that the agriculture policy then, or is it like a side one, and is there also an industrial one, or what that's a very that's a very good observation.
SPEAKER_00:They can have two they can have two, three policies which can contradict if these two policies found themselves on a desk of somebody, they can have a karate competition among themselves. No, I agree with you. That's why now what we are pushing is for a food policy. A food policy is not necessarily an agricultural policy. Food is economics, it's water, it's health, it is international relationship, it's everything. Every minister. So you have one food policy, but every sectoral offices do contribute for that. Then you have you have a mechanism of creating the harmony among the policy implementation at the country level. So that's why AFSA is pushing for food policy now.
SPEAKER_03:Fascinating.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I uh yeah, I found it fascinating. And I think I was reading one of your pieces that uh you wrote on that in, and um I've enjoyed a couple of them, and one of them was about USAID. You were very categorical in terms of saying, yeah, actually, the fact that the US no longer supports US USAID can be a good thing for uh uh African food systems. So why would why did you decide to take approach?
SPEAKER_00:USAID is messing us up. I know that you know there is no organization which is 100% bad. And even in agriculture, I've been told I was told later on that they were doing supporting some good projects here and there. But mainly, I can give you three examples. One example is the revision of biosafety policies. So personally, I was present at the three meetings, two meetings, regional meetings, South African level, one and one in Ethiopia, where a representative of USA was sitting and they're not saying anything. They are funding the meeting, and there are people who are prepared already, all people, but they were sitting and listening and observing and whatever. So so many of the policies in Africa, that's my second point. Some so many of the policies in Africa are influenced by USAID now. And also the US government to direct bilateral leaderships. They do influence a number of policies. For example, UPOV 91. I hope you have seen my podcasts. The first four podcasts are on UPO 91. I think I advise anybody who is interested in CD shoes in Africa to follow those podcasts. The name of the podcast is called Battle for African Agriculture. And one thing that is that was coming from those podcasts from my interviews with experts in the field, that during bilateral relationships, the acceptance of PUPOV 91 is put there. An acceptance of agrochemicals, acceptance of so there's an agent of the US government, an agent of so many US companies that we Africans don't want. So they will be coming in a different way with a different actor. We're going to see what will be the focus of this US government, we're going to see. But my personal experience is good written. But I know that so many people have lost their jobs. I do feel it. Sometimes a husband and a wife from the same family, a husband working who is one organization, a wife, and that will be a disaster. The health system was so much dependence. But why should we relax ourselves and get dependent on this actor? So it's a good shock into the system also.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03:And we'll definitely put the podcast in the show notes. And as a final question, which is never a final question, because then we there will be others to follow up. But this switch, or not the switch, but the focus on the food system, do you see that landing better or getting more resonating more? We see slowly some signs in Europe and elsewhere as well, where of course the health system is under huge pressure. Let's say somehow food and in our areas, of course, less people are working the land and farming the land. So food is much more touches many more people daily than agriculture in that sense. And it seems that talking about the food system and how it connects to everything else is a better strategy or a more successful or resonating strategy than talking about agriculture should be different. Is that the same? Do you see that the same like on the government levels, policy companies, farmers, that focusing on food instead of only agriculture and farmers works?
SPEAKER_00:I think it's beginning to be understood. What a food system is. Travel of food. But that's not that's not food system. There are a number of actors around those food systems. It it rests on the ecological reality of the situation. There is a gender issue, it's cultural issue. There are so many things around the food system agenda. And what kind of food system also is very much important. But in terms of politics, a word for a negotiator, international negotiator, is very much meaningful. For example, one Kenyan climate negotiator said, no, he doesn't want the food system in the climate negotiation. And say, Oh, really? Why? He said that if you put the food system in the climate negotiations, if you agree, then they would come back and they start to look at not only your food production, but your food processing, your food marketing. You're open up to so many challenges. So as a country, as a continent, there are only so many challenges everywhere, agreeing on a word can be challenging. Yeah, that's the only thing that I wanted to say.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Talking about like the messaging part, so I'm trying to figure out um in terms of progress because I'm thinking since you started in 2013, but when we look at the statistics that are available, especially like for we started in 2008, 2013. Oh we started to look at the yeah, okay. So I'm wondering throughout that entire time frame, I think we've seen from an organic perspective, we've seen like one, two percent of like the entire farming system is organic. So I'm guessing if we combine both, it could be around five percent. So I'm thinking, why do we why do you think we still have such a low adaptation rate among farmers? And do you think those figures are accurate?
SPEAKER_00:I'm not sure about the figures in this continent. Figures are part of the narrative, so anybody can make up these figures. I don't trust also consultants to tell me about figures, they do easily extrapolate. Extrapolation. If this figure is here, then so there's a lot of extrapolation in our continent on figures. Yeah, yeah, but in terms of change, uh, I think we have to go a long way. As much as agroecology is coming, the speed and the extent and the power of the green revolution is still there. That's what uh that's what I have observed. Now, agroecology, people are saying agroecology, agroecology, agro-why? As I said, most of external energy have come back, and they're talking about agroecology, all the terms climate smart agriculture, conventional agricultural conservation agriculture, organic agriculture, everything is changing into agroecology now. So we are all on the agroecological trade what you call it, and also more and more countries are increasing their funding to agroecology. I remember last year going through Bonn, and there was a presentation by BMZ, you know, the German Development Arm, the German government's development arm, and the BMZ, there was a presentation from an expert in BMZ, and the way they talked about agroecology is incredible. So it's going into the system, the funding system. And unfortunately, when it is in the funding system, there are a lot of ills everywhere. External Indios and local Indios, even governments, listen. But what is agroecology, even what is a proper kind of regenerative agriculture? We have a long way to go. And the danger is very easy to be co opted. You have to go and everywhere they say agroecology, you have to challenge them. Are you challenging power? Where is the social movement? It's kind of question we have to ask.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, what's the biggest danger now in at this moment of agroecology re-reawakening or getting attention? And what's the biggest risk of it getting more attention and more funding?
SPEAKER_00:I think uh the biggest problem will be taking seeing agroecology as a technical solution. That's a bigger problem. If you are looking, if you reorganize the certain principles of agroecology, there is a social side of it, participation, whatever, and there is a this practical side of like biodiversity, synergy, soil health, whatever. So the focus now for most of them is on the technical, not on the people side of it. So that would be the danger. Uh, and our role is to bring in a critic. Every time our friends produce a paper on agroecology, then we pick and say, What are you talking about? What is a power analysis? Yeah. So, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Laura Ortiz likes to say agriculture without the social side is just gardening and keeps you like it. It is a tricky one. It is a like, yeah, it's so much easier to not question the power dynamics and to just look at okay, let's do a lot of mulching.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. Um now even increasingly governments and the number of institutions talk about food sovereignty. Even the African Development Bank, they had the meeting at the beginning of 2024. I think it's beginning of 2024 in uh in Senegal. And in the title of the meeting, I think there is resilience and food sovereignty there. So for African Development Bank, Food Sovereignty is producing your own uh pesticides and uh and that's physically. So yeah, so so so the understanding of a number of institutions on this critical issue is still limited.
SPEAKER_03:It's lacking, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, lacking, and our role is not to give a rest and mind.
SPEAKER_03:Challenging, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just one question. I think there's a lot of young people who follow you as well who would admire you in terms of your writing and your involvement within the African continent and are interested in regeneration, they're interested in agroecology. What advice could you give to them? If there was like one idea you could plant in the hearts for them to take for their future like careers in the agroecology and regenerative space, what would you tell them?
SPEAKER_00:Why are you asking me this one thing?
SPEAKER_03:A few things is fine. Two, three things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and yeah. Where I have a problem is it's very contextual, as you but I would say is one idea in general idea is there is there is business, there's entrepreneurship in the food system. I really advise them to look at it. That's why I also like the work of Ruti Cor, trying as much as possible to open up people's minds, including youths uh around agroecology and how the food system can provide jobs. Maybe that's what uh I wanted to say. And then the second one, probably, maybe much more serious one, is your food, your traditional food, is healthy, and it's your statement of being an African. Because when we eat our food system, we we can save ourselves for so many miseries, including the influence from the ultra-processed food. So so yeah, just want to say that. Alright, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's pretty clear. Kun.
SPEAKER_03:It's a perfect wrap-up. You want to bring us home, Brian? You want to wrap it up or shall I do it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you can just wrap it up.
SPEAKER_03:Not too much to add, there are so many other questions we can ask, but we want to be conscious of your time as well. And thank you so much, of course, for the work you do for biting into the food system, uh, pun unintended. And to, of course, lead one of the largest civil movements in Africa and putting food and thus farming and thus civil society at the heart. And yeah, thank you so much for coming here and share about your work.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for having me again.
SPEAKER_03:So, thank you, first of all, for listening all the way to the end, which I say every time, but it's I don't take it lightly if you spend an hour plus with us so often. This is such an interesting topic and such an interesting continent to talk about agroecology and region ag and the differences and what funders want and donors want and what is really needed on the ground. And so I'm inviting you to reflect on that. Like, how much are we imposing? We, if you of course happen to be not on the continent, how much are we imposing how much decision-making power do we leave to actually people involved? Which is the same in Europe. How many farmers are actually part of the CAP discussions, for instance, or in the US or in Brazil? Like, how often are we imposing something? And probably most of the time. And what can we do about that? How do we make people that are ultimately affected by policies part of that discussion, part of the roundtables, and really part, not just the excuse farmer, as Miriam likes to call it, like the one in the corner that's like, okay, so we actually had a farmer on board, so now it's fine, but actually proper engagement. And how do we enable them to be part of that as well? How do we compensate farmers to take a lot of time to travel to the capital and actually discuss with policymakers that are paid for that in their nice shiny offices? Farmers don't have that, or farmer representatives. So, how do we do that at scale, which I think is a big question? Super positive to hear that policies are being put in place for agroecology, which is not the case in almost any other country I know. Of course, they need to be implemented, but at least it's there, at least it's a topic, and at least there are counties that are actively pushing for this. And I think what's going to be interesting to see if you see regions almost compete to each other. As in here, we have the infrastructure for agroecology, we have the training, we have the land, we have the inputs, and we have the output, we can have off-takes if you want, we have some processing. Like come here and farm instead of elsewhere, which I think would be very interesting if that starts to happen. So let me know what you think. As always, thank you so much for listening, and see you at the next one. Thank you for listening all the way to the end. For show notes and links discussed, check out our website, investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/slash posts. If you like this episode, why not share it with a friend? And get in touch with us on social media, our website, or via the Spotify app and tell us what you like most. And give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your podcast player. That really, really helps us. Thanks again and see you next time.
