Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast features the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food
107 Brad Vanstone on why just being a vegan cheese company isn’t enough to have a big impact
Brad Vanstone, founder of Willicroft, a plant-based cheese company for dairy cheese lovers who is going deep into regenerative agriculture and soil, discusses why being simply a vegan cheese company isn’t good enough.
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Topics of the episode:
- Why carbon tax is crucial for the food sector
- True cost accounting is key for creating a level playing field
- How Willicroft is going after creating a net positive impact
- Why Willicroft appointed nature as their CEO in 2020
More about this episode on https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/brad-vanstone.
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https://investinginregenerativeagriculture.com/course/
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Simply vegan isn't good enough. Today a topic we usually don't cover in depth. The world of vegan cheeses and alternative proteins. This is a story of a company that thought they were extremely sustainable by simply making vegan plant-based cheese. But they found out that if they wanted to be net positive and have the biggest impact possible, they needed to look a lot further into their supply chain and completely change all their recipes. I really wanted to share this story as we need the plant-based community to be part of the regenerative transition, which means we need to ask difficult questions about industrial dairy and we need to ask difficult questions about the ingredients and supply chains behind plant-based products. Welcome to another episode of In March last year, we launched our membership community to make it easy for fans to support our work. And so many of you have joined as a member. We've launched different types of benefits, exclusive content, Q&A webinars with former guests, ask me anything sessions, plus so much more to come in the future. For more information on the different tiers, benefits and how to become a member, check gumroad.com slash investing region. an egg or find the link below. Thank you. So to start with the personal question, we always love to ask, why are you doing what you're doing? Why soil? Why plant-based cheeses?
SPEAKER_00:So this all started when I moved to Amsterdam. I started to eat a mainly plant-based diet with my partner and we found it very easy to give up meat and milk, but cheese was definitely our favorite food until that point. I think like a lot of Dutch people, we really struggled to give up cheese. And so we started to look for alternatives in the supermarket and even back then, and the alternatives for meat and milk were pretty good, but the alternatives for cheese left a lot to be desired back then.
SPEAKER_01:How many years ago is this, just to have an idea?
SPEAKER_00:We're talking four or five years ago. Okay, yeah. And so I started to experiment at home, in my apartment, and I had a basic understanding of how to make cheese from my grandfather. He was a dairy farmer, so I was combining similar processes and practices, but with a plant-based ingredient base, And from there, the business kind of began very artisanally. I was just going from market to market. And then after about a year, I realized that actually if I could change one thing, it was to solve the initial problem we were facing, which was good quality plant-based cheese at retail. But the whole intention of starting this was to create something that was genuinely having a positive impact on the planet. And the only way in which we realized we could do that as if we could really go back to the core of everything and really look at the beginning and the kind of transparency behind our entire supply chain. And I guess that's how everything came back to the soil and the base and where things were produced, the emissions and the cause and effect of what happens when they are produced. And so that's, yeah, kind of how we came to be. I
SPEAKER_01:know sort of the answer, but I would love for you to share it. When did that realization came to you and the company? Because for many, I think, plant producers, companies that realization still has to arrive, that it's important to look beyond the ingredients. It's not just important to take out the dairy and to take out something, but it's actually important. What do you put in and is it highly processed? How is it farmed, et cetera, et cetera. You came to that realization and decided to act on that, which I would love to hear how that happened and how was that moment when you realized, okay, there's a world beyond the ingredients.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. So I think quite a common misconception is that just because something's plant-based, it's therefore bad. for the planet than dairy. And so once we got past that realization and realized that there was a lot more kind of nuances at play, that was when we started to unravel a whole sort of rabbit warren of information, some of which was very difficult to take because we had to really start from scratch and make decisions that we didn't think we were going to have to make.
SPEAKER_01:Like? What was the most difficult one? The most difficult realization and decision?
SPEAKER_00:Basically, just ripping up the rule book of every single recipe we ever made so just to give a brief kind of synopsis of plant-based cheese you really have two main base ingredients you have cashews or other nuts and then more processed components as a base so the cashew based cheeses are or other nuts are using kind of traditional processes to create milk and then through fermentation creating certain flavorings but the more processed variety are really just providing I don't want to say mimic, but that sort of experience. It looks like cheese. It melts like cheese. It kind of tastes like cheese. And so we realized that actually both models, neither of them really worked from an emission standpoint. And therefore, we had to find a totally different route. And this was pretty much in line with when we just released some products on the market. And we're trying to celebrate those products. And so, yeah, you claim to be an environmentally conscious business you think you're on a really good path and then you get hit with the news that actually across your entire supply chain through a life cycle assessment your emissions aren't really that much better than dairy so that was definitely a tough realization but the most important thing we've learned today for sure
SPEAKER_01:and what was the biggest driver of that smaller difference than you anticipated or hoped for was it the way cashew nuts or nuts in general are grown the water etc what was the biggest driver of that difference Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:it was the cashews indeed. So it's the processing of them that is the real energy intensive part.
SPEAKER_01:So making the milk, basically.
SPEAKER_00:So it's actually taking the shell off, which a lot of nuts have shells and they have shells on the individual nut itself. So for every single one, you have to remove that shell. And often that process is done actually thousands of miles away. So I think two thirds of the world's cashews are grown in Africa, but actually a huge proportion are then processed in somewhere like Vietnam and India and then sold. It could be in the States, it could be in Europe. So the distances they're traveling, but also the energy that's being used to process them is very extensive. And often it's fossil fuel energy. So we actually had a partner that was processing on site. They were growing with a load of local farmers. I think they had a thousand smallholder farmers. So it was a pretty response They were organic. They were employing 70% women. But even then, we were creating a highly emitting product. So it was a real kind of red flag that even when you do have some insight into your suppliers and you do think you've got some good partners, you can still cause a lot more harm than you imagine.
SPEAKER_01:And so that set off a journey to find alternatives for these nuts and to find ones that are less, let's say, emission heavy or actually even emission positive.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. So we switched on to beans and pulses. So we're making that transition this year. So by the end of this year, all of our cheeses will be based on those. ingredients we spent about 18 months looking at all manner of different factors so the main starting point is to create a milk and from there we can create a plant-based cheese so there are certain nutritional components we're looking at there are certain cost components there are certain ethical components in terms of wages for the farmers and we also now are starting to look at the soil as well so it's difficult to find entirely regenerative ingredients at this stage and we'll maybe come on to that later, but for organic, that is something which we are, we're not totally organic by any stretch of the imagination, but we are at least sort of 50 to 60% minimum upwards to a couple of products which are going to be organic in a couple of months' time. So where possible, our philosophy is to select organic supplies, but it's such a new space, the vegan cheese world, so we're using a lot of ingredients that just haven't been certified at this stage.
SPEAKER_01:And how difficult is it then to because a nut and a bean seem very different from the non-vegan cheese expert like how different is that process now becoming and flavor wise and is it much more processing for you like how difficult is it to switch from a nut to a milk and then a cheese to a bean and a milk and a cheese
SPEAKER_00:yeah it's a totally different recipe so a nut are actually probably the best base ingredient to make a milk they're high in protein and fat quite neutral in flavor quite neutral in color So they are just a brilliant ingredient. Beans are high in protein, but not high in fat. So you have to build up that fat level with other ingredients. They are actually a slightly better color, white beans. So that is a plus. But yeah, we had to basically just rip up the rule book and start afresh with the recipes. There were certain things we could cross over, but it really has been a process of starting again.
SPEAKER_01:In terms of flavor, you're getting to, because of course your customers are used to the nut based ones and so is that going to be a journey or what are you expecting there
SPEAKER_00:well we always look at it actually by comparing it to the dairy cheese we're replacing because in our eyes whilst it's we think it's fantastic when someone can just switch their diet totally without needing this i do think for most people it has to be a comparable product in taste i think the best meat and milk replacements that are on the market are really offering something that is in incredibly compelling when you place plant-based and dairy next to each other. So for us, that is the target always is not necessarily to compare ourselves to other plant-based cheeses, but always the dairy cheese that we're trying to create an alternative for.
SPEAKER_01:And that's, I mean, I'm just imagining or assuming that maybe the bean-based cheeses, they might lend themselves to make different cheeses than the nut ones. Is that the case? Like it naturally goes to a towards another is that the case like you're going to release different cheese varieties because of the beans because of different ingredients
SPEAKER_00:yeah so we at this stage kind of our first focus was to create the cheeses that people are having every day the dairy cheeses that people are having every day so in the dairy cheese world you've got mozzarella feta cheddar powder those sort of cheeses so those are the ones that we focused on initially so i couldn't say how it would work for say a camembert or a more sort of aged cheese or more of a kind of delicacy. But certainly for the more everyday cheeses, it's proven to be a really fantastic base ingredient.
SPEAKER_01:And do you see this movement or your, let's say, larger scope looking beyond your ingredients, looking beyond the LCA, the life cycle assessment? Is that something that you've seen other plant-based cheeses or, let's say, alternative protein companies starting to look at or looking at as well? Is there somebody you could call like in this space, like, look, we're thinking about this. Somebody that has made a few steps already, or are you really lonely in the movement at the moment?
SPEAKER_00:We're lonely, but we're not on Ireland. There are two companies in Europe that I know of who are really looking at this as well. The Swiss company called New Roots, they have just released an LCA, really fantastic company, great people. And there's another company in Germany, I can't remember the name of, who've put their emissions on their packaging, which I think is another really important step. So it's starting, but this is where I think we also need to see a little bit more sort of governmental involvement. I really think a carbon tax would be a fantastic step. We only need to look at the kind of move to a sugar tax and alcohol tax and cigarette tax to see the improvements those have had in restricting or improving sort of certain health components. And I think when we put a monetary figure on carbon. I do really think that is going to force the hand of supermarkets, of suppliers, of producers. And yeah, I see that as something that can really help to lower the emissions that the food industry has.
SPEAKER_01:So you've been working on the ingredients, which is an enormous job for a small team like yourself. So in terms of sourcing, how difficult, I mean, you've mentioned we're trying to find a number of ingredients organic, but beyond that, or the soil discussion has been very, very difficult, non-existent in many cases. What are you working on in that area to improve that? Like to make it easier for yourself, but also for others, obviously, to start sourcing some of these ingredients in a way that is a bit more holistic, looking at the full picture. And what is your, because I know you have plans there, but I can imagine as a small team, it's already tricky enough to change all your recipes and figure out that part but what are you thinking on the sourcing part and what are you working on?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah so this part is kind of split in two so we've got some partners who are already really pushing regenerative practices or at the very least they're already organic so they're already you know very much on a similar mindset.
SPEAKER_01:And when you say partners you mean farmers I'm imagining in Europe or somewhere?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah it's suppliers who can kind of give us multiple ingredients and their philosophies are very much in line with our but their buying power is just so huge that the impact that they can have is just enormous so we're very lucky to work with people like that but we're also conscious of doing some more kind of actions on our end so we've begun a transitional farming project with a couple of local farmers here in the Netherlands we're teaming up with also a couple of partner organizations like Renatured to help run the project and the goal is to basically grow some of our main ingredients so the white beans on what is currently dairy land to give the dairy farmers another source of income, but to also localize our supply chain and to prove that plant-based producers and dairy farmers can work together. So we're going to start this on a small scale initially. We're hoping to plant this year, but at the very latest, it will be next year. Looking at probably 10 to 20 acres initially, so very small. But the goal is just to get a couple of harvest and prove that this ingredient can be grown here, and it is already, but we just want to really cement that it can. And then we want to roll this out with much more scale.
SPEAKER_01:And for, let's say, I'm a dairy farmer in the Netherlands, what does it mean concretely for me that you're working with me on a transition? Except for probably planting a few acres of white beans, but what does it entail?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I think as we do see climate change really kicking in over the next few years, I think we do need to look at multiple income streams for our farmers. I think that will improve their resilience. But I do also foresee a world that does have less dairy in it. I think the battle we're fighting is not with smallholder dairy farms. It's with big dairy, which has totally left a lot of farmers behind, my grandpa included. That kind of saw an end to a fair price. It saw an end to a multifaceted farm, the care of animals. And so we want to work with those who are still farming in small holding setups to make sure that they are protected because the subsidies you see for someone like in the EU, that's not going to these guys, that's going to the big dairy organizations. So yeah, I guess we're kind of reaching out a hand to those dairy farmers and saying that, yeah, we respect the role that you play and we want you to be as big a part of the future food system as you have been thus And
SPEAKER_01:then it would mean that like on part of my hectares or acres, I will plant white beans in this case, and then you will with an offtake agreement. And that will add an interesting income stream instead of putting, I don't know, solar panels on the land or instead of doing some other crop, et cetera, to basically add to the small scale dairy that I'm operating.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. How do you see that playing out for like that? You say we're fighting against or we're competing against or what we want to change is the big data. Barry, what do you see there happening? Some of them are entering the space that you're in as well, probably not with the same values and intentions, but what do you see that whole discussion on the large, definitely not alternative protein companies starting to enter the space of the alternative protein companies, buying up some big ones, setting up funds? I mean, we see all the activities left and right. What's your thought there as a very active player? Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I guess if the change happened, I actually don't necessarily mind how I would rather it happened a certain way, but much like with the renewable space with energy, the guys that are producing most of the fossil fuel energy are inevitably the people who can make the greatest change if they really put their time and effort into setting up a more sustainable energy sector. So they have the infrastructure, they have the connections, they have the capital, they have the research and the manpower. So it's a similar story with dairy. I don't think we're seeing the same kind of switch just yet. We're seeing quite a lot of protective moves happening in Europe surrounding the naming of products, the packaging of products and those sorts of things.
SPEAKER_02:Which means they're getting scared.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. But change is definitely coming. I do think a carbon tax is on the horizon, which will dramatically change the price of food and force a lot of consumers to consider alternatives. I think the quality of the alternatives is getting a lot better. People are raising a lot of questions about factory farming and so all of these indicators are pushing towards a different system and but yeah I just hope that they decide to move with it rather than trying to fight against the tide because personally even though we are a plant-based producer we don't see a world without dairy that's not the world we're trying to create the world we do see is a world that can feed 10 billion people by 2050 in which scenario we're going to have to produce 70 percent more food and we're not going to do that with the current system so we need to yeah just think about how we're allocating our resources think about how we're growing our food and that requires a different kind of food system than the one we have now
SPEAKER_01:and to go a bit deeper into that analogy i think we can learn a lot from the renewable energy space you see some very large players moving and we can ask a lot of questions about it but if you look just at dong which used to be which i think changed name to or set or something in the danish oil and gas operator, became a fully wind, one of the biggest wind developers in the world. And of course, took a long shot, of course, sold their fossil assets. Somebody still owns them. They're not completely retired, but made a huge shift or transition and seems to be leading the pack at the moment. And others are sort of scrambling to catch up. What if you would be, let's say, the head of Friesland Campina, which is one of the biggest dairy cooperatives in the world based in the Netherlands? What would be like you're in control of the oil tanker? What would be your You have maybe a couple of years because then shareholders are going to get very nervous, etc. What would be your first few steps to set up some change there? Because that's a massive dairy company. Some small scale is still part of it, but I think most of it is large, large subsidy driven dairy. What would be your moves as the new appointed CEO?
SPEAKER_00:So I would love to see true cost accounting and a target for net positivity. So first up with the true cost accounting, as you mentioned, Friesland Campina is a primarily propped up by subsidies or they're able to offer the price points they can because of subsidies. They're exporting all over the world with prices that local markets can't compete with because of EU taxpayer money. So I would love to see them take a responsible stance and actually charge the price that should be charged for their products. It would lead inevitably to a loss in revenue, but I think the first player that moves here in the dairy space will get a lot of credit and that will resonate with consumers, I think. And then from a net positivity standpoint, it is very possible to regeneratively farm dairy and seek... Which is interesting to hear that from a plant-based producer, yeah. No, I mean, there's been a lot of reports, a lot of great stuff coming out of the US in particular with regards to regenerative dairy farming. And it's very clear that you can farm dairy in a regenerative way. So I think those... would be the main thing.
SPEAKER_01:But there's a but. You have to radically change everything you're doing, basically.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it would take huge change. And yeah, the capital implications would be mega. But I think even just setting a date that isn't a ridiculous dot on the horizon, but it's say 2030, 2044 for targets, you know, maybe perhaps it was with 50 percent there by 2030, 100 percent there by 2040. That would still be an improvement on now where it's, you know, an interest conversation but not really one that that they're taking
SPEAKER_01:like in the UK we're banning the sales of all internal combustion engine or ice vehicles by 2030 yeah and it would have happened anyway probably because it's going so fast now in electric transportation but it's even if it doesn't reach that like it creates suddenly everybody's scrambling and starting to like this is real this is going to happen if it's 2031 or 2032 or 2029 doesn't really matter but it's the move is there and yeah that would be very powerful to you put a net positive statement out there and then yeah very interesting
SPEAKER_00:yeah i think it's also the responsibility of shareholders and the market i mean everything is driven by today but i've been reading a lot of recently about intergenerational thinking
SPEAKER_01:you're reading the good ancestor or not i just started like a week ago maybe i'm only page 20 but yeah it's it's interesting
SPEAKER_00:yeah it's a really interesting topic and it's tapping into a lot of existing conversations so a lot of the ideas aren't necessarily new but it's providing a kind of framework or a way of looking at it but I just love the notion of always thinking about okay so what is the future generation going to think of us because when you put it into that context you remove your own individual ego you remove the present day and I think then you make much better decisions and we have to act on things today but we should be acting on things today knowing they're going to be better tomorrow 20 years 50 years 100 years time
SPEAKER_02:Seven generations,
SPEAKER_00:yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's that wonderful group in North America that think in a seven generational way, which is, yeah, very inspirational.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm really then, like, how do you get that into you? And Frison Campina is a sort of different story because they are a cooperative, so they might have, or they could have a longer term view. But if you look at Danone, for instance. Great example. That are sort of control, like, I mean, they have a longer term view of some shareholders, but now they get an activist one that actually is pushing to Emmanuel Faber to change. because they need to need results per quarter like what can we do there too because that seems to be that really the underlying every quarter or at least every six months i need to show x growth or x which completely takes you away from investing for five or ten years which used to be the case and so what i mean it's a very difficult question this is a rabbit hole but if you're running a company let's say you're now ceo of danone and you have these activists you have these shareholders that are pushing like how would you counteract that do you have any because these are a long-term things and they should be because that's kind of important but they are thinking short term of their next shareholder their next report coming out
SPEAKER_00:we're actually looking at this ourselves at the moment about how we solidify impact decisions and so there's a few things that you can do or from what we've seen from other organizations so one is appointing an impact board which is kind of slightly separate to the main function of the business and it's a neutral body and the They are given certain decisions on certain components. So, for example, if it's a spend, if it's a packaging decision, if it's just a major investment that could mean that the company is not making a responsible decision, that impact board then votes on it. So they kind of have a golden share.
SPEAKER_01:The golden share is another option. Yeah. We had Armin Storjanagel of Purpose Ventures a while ago. I should definitely check in with them again. But there like who controls the steering wheel of your company even if Unilever puts half a billion on the table or whatever crazy amount that changed everybody's lives like how do you make sure you stay impact driven and long term focused it has to do with legal stuff it has to do with controlling certain decisions also when you're not there anymore because maybe you moved on to something else and maybe the key people of the team have changed how do you create organizations that last much longer than we are used to now
SPEAKER_00:yeah well it's interesting to look back on the origins of company which were initially set up as a for good service for society but now it's it's got a very different route so i think we need to return back to that idea of service and making society the planet whatever it might be a better and improved place by our actions
SPEAKER_01:and companies are i mean i'm not bashing against that i think it's the strongest organization form we have it's just it's a tool as everything else which means you need to really really make sure you structure it well and think of all the bad stuff that can happen and all the annoying things that can come around to make sure if you're interested in long-term stuff that it can run for 20, 30 years, because then you're going to have the biggest impact and not sell after three or four or five or whatever the craziness is now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And to come back to kind of our supply chain and that kind of thinking, we have to be thinking in decade long periods because we very much want to have a regenerative supply chain, but we also have to realistic that it's not going to happen overnight and we have to really work and fight to make it happen. And therefore that long-term thinking is absolutely crucial.
SPEAKER_01:And if we're looking at, I love to ask this question, which is always a bit lengthy, but the ITN framework, the importance, tractability and neglectiveness. Importance meaning what's the scale of the problem? I think the scale of the problem of industrial dairy, let's say, is very clear. Many people for sure still underestimate just the sheer impact of factory farming in general, both for meat, dairy and other animal products. So if this would be fixed, a lot would be better, but if it fixed the proper way. Detractability, like how solvable is it? I think you're starting to unpack that. Like how solvable is it if not using certain nuts that are very damaging, we found out. Like that's something, but like that is like, how would you rate your work if you look at the importance, detractability, and how many other people basically are working on it? It sounds like it scores pretty high, but what's your feeling on that, your work at Willicroft?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so in terms of an important standpoint, I do think It is very important work. The emissions of food, well, food is the biggest emitting sector of all when you look at every part of the chain. Also, dairy, cheese is the third emitting food type. So I think the importance is really clear. And on the plant-based side, we're not seeing enough accountability, traceability with current players on the market. So it's really important that we take a proactive stance in showing an example of how to kind of map out these LCAs and build a supply chain that is a bit more responsible. And then on the solvability, I think maybe first good to mention the uptake. So the uptake now is incredible with plant-based alternatives. I mean, in the UK, 25% of all milk sold is plant-based and there's only actually 1% vegan in the UK or 1.5%. So that's a huge proportion of flexitarians. So the quality of the product is there. But again, to go back to the kind of improvements or the sort of traceability and the accountability to the environment, that is where there's much, much work to be done. And this is kind of, I think, the second phase of the plant-based space. I think the first phase was really just products coming onto the market and a lot of excitement. And now I think consumers are going
SPEAKER_01:to... Totally going through the roof. And yeah, that's it. And everybody's starting to pay attention. I mean, many people did five years ago, but now it's really different. And now we need to have that discussion on ingredients, but also on processing and what does it actually do to your body? We know much more about dairy, but definitely not health benefits and the health benefits. But now we need to have that discussion about white bean cheese, because otherwise we're just replacing one thing for the other.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, the worst thing we can do is create another problem by solving one. I mean, that's not helping anything. So yeah, I think this next phase is really about delving into those things you've mentioned. So really understanding the impact on our planet's health, but also on humanity's health as well.
SPEAKER_01:How is that happening? What's your view on that? Because obviously you cannot do 30 year randomized control trials with fixing or replacing one cheese for the other. What are you seeing that in white beans? How much do you have to process it? What other ingredients are there that could trigger certain things? What's your view there?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, the nice thing is that for most producers, we know a lot about the individual ingredients. So when they're combined as a combination, that's where we're perhaps still needing to learn at this stage. But I think the first step on the ingredients is there. There are some, you do look on the back of a pack sometimes on plant-based products and do question, you know, what are half of these things and why are there 25 ingredients in a single product? I think that is somewhere that needs to change. But we're seeing things like the NutriScore come out in Europe, which is a standard kind of health scoring method. And yeah, as I said, I do think a carbon tax on food is not too far away from an emissions standpoint, at least on a trial basis in an individual country. But these are all areas that need a lot more work and input. And we're really at the beginning.
SPEAKER_01:And from your customer perspective, like your openness on emissions and ingredients now, because you're on that journey, you're talking about it, you're releasing an impact report. How has been the response from your customers that you're switching from nuts to other things, or that you weren't so sustainable as you hoped you were? What has been your, because you for sure have many fans, what has been their involvement, response, et cetera, on this journey?
SPEAKER_00:We've never had anyone negatively look at it because I think we've always been quite open the minute we've had information at hand and I think where people get frustrated is when there's a problem but you don't address the solution or when you try and hide the problem so I mean some of the companies that I admire the most are ones that always kind of look in the mirror and take action at what they see companies like Patagonia for example they start a using organic cotton in the 90s but the uptake across the whole fashion industry has actually been really low and they see that as quite a personal kind of setback that they haven't been able to drive the change that they would have liked and I think it's really fantastic when a company is constantly trying to improve constantly trying to evolve and the minute you put numbers behind anything you can look to improve about beyond those things when you're just basing your actions on assumptions that's that's a dangerous place to be so
SPEAKER_01:as you learned
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah exactly
SPEAKER_01:yeah but i can imagine let's say the customers in the vegan space can be quite i don't know focused on that and it's interesting as a company takes them on a journey as well like there is a world beyond and maybe some of the other vegan things or plant-based things you're buying are 25 ingredients and actually are not that clean you're not saying that but by basically of course implicitly you are by making the moves yourself and having a cleaner ingredient list and having potentially the carbon on it and et cetera, et cetera. So it's, yeah, maybe it's a message that some people don't want to hear because it makes life a lot more complicated.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, I mean, I think anyone who is willing and able to look at things pragmatically and with nuance and depth sees that this is absolutely the right path. Anyone who's looking for a headline might see it differently.
SPEAKER_01:And imagining an audience of smart impact investors listening to this conversation, like with all the attention there is for plant-based at the moment, what would you advise them? Obviously without giving investment advice, but what would you advise them in terms of questions to ask, directions to look at? Like what if you will be investing in the space? What would you be looking at? What is exciting to you now as you're so deep into the process?
SPEAKER_00:I think a good tasting product is not enough. I think you really have to have something that is looking at a multitude of factors, really delving into supply chain, really looking at where things are from, you know, who are the people behind producing these ingredients and also the health components of the product as well. So I think a very much kind of long-term view is important because there are a lot of things that seem to be sort of, I don't want to use the word fad, but I just have, but it a better word to describe that, basically. It seems like there's a lot of kind of quick fixes and things that don't necessarily have that much depth to it. And I think whilst this huge growth is really exciting to see, and I think it's fantastic that a lot of options are now available, I just hope that we learn from other lessons. And as we mentioned earlier, we don't create other issues by bringing something new onto the market that hasn't been totally thought through. So yeah,
SPEAKER_01:that's maybe a word of warning. priority list, what would be your focus?
SPEAKER_00:So can I mention a couple of things?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. You can do a whole list if you want. You can do 50 million each, 5 million each, whatever you want to take in terms of space. Some people answer with, I would put it all in X and some others have a whole list of things they want to look into. But I'm asking it because I'd like to look into your head and what would you prioritize? I'm not asking because we need to know exactly it's going to be 55 million.6. What is the first things you would go after? And with more or less, how would you split it up?
SPEAKER_00:So I really, really believe that lobbying is fundamental to us changing so many things about our food system. The guys who are lobbying at the moment do not really care about the planet and they're protecting single interests and the status quo. So I would put a lot of that money into lobbying, which would probably lead to being fired at a VC because it's not going to lead to instant return. But it would lead to a lot of widespread change. I really do think that that is a big part of what's happening now.
SPEAKER_01:And they would go after carbon tax. They would go after... True
SPEAKER_00:cost accounting, carbon tax. Yeah, getting a lot of the really important fundamentals right so that the market price switches because as with renewables is the perfect example. Now that so many options are price comparable, people are buying electric cars. People are using renewable energy. So I think with food we need to go and look at a similar sort of model. I would also look to support projects that are really promoting the regenerative label. I think we've got this amazing momentum now behind regenerative farming but we now need tangible solutions things that we can buy in the supermarkets.
SPEAKER_01:So you would go after food companies, the food company side of things.
SPEAKER_00:And I think what's maybe missing at this stage is finished products. You've got a lot of ingredients that can be regenerative, but making that into a product is the next phase, I think. So I would try and support projects that are looking to do that because I think that is an important step. That is something we personally are struggling with at this stage. We can get 50% there perhaps, but we're not going to be able to get the whole whole way there at this stage
SPEAKER_01:so when then you would would you invest in companies like willycroft or would you invest in like your suppliers that then buy from farmers to to get more like ready to ready ingredients for you to make your cheeses or for others to make other things because you mentioned before it's difficult to to get i mean maybe some of the supply of the white beans or etc etc is there but then the transformation piece seems to be missing is that what you're saying
SPEAKER_00:yeah exactly exactly i think we need more ingredients and far that are using these models. So yeah, I think it has to start there. We need to plant these seeds now because it will probably not come into fruition for five to 10 years. So yeah, I think we have to get a lot of the fundamentals right at either end of the spectrum. You've got the lobbying at the top and then the farmers, which are obviously the root of everything and the soil. And that will ensure that everything in between starts to adjust in the right way.
SPEAKER_01:If you could change one thing, so we took away your fund, I'm very sorry, but you have a magic wand and a magic power to change one thing, only one, so you cannot say carbon tax and true acoustic hunting, what would you go after if you could change one thing in the ag and food industry, which could be anything, could be global consciousness, could be, I mean, we've had many, many, you've heard some episodes, many, many different answers to this question, but what would be your one change?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I had to ponder on this for quite some time.
SPEAKER_02:That's why I ask
SPEAKER_00:it. I do think it is this, though, I think I would love to see us return to our grandparents' diet, which sounds strange, but that would solve so many problems. We wouldn't have this huge dependence on meat. We would be paying the true cost for things. There are so many things that got right at that stage. I mean, if you look at the cost of the household spend in America, for example, now on food, it's gone from 20% per family down to 10%, yet they're eating more meat than ever, more dairy and you know these things just don't add up so I would go back to a bygone era
SPEAKER_01:and go forward sort of because I think there's a lot of because I don't think we want to go back to the back breaking I mean they got many things right but many things not so much as well but there's an interesting I think on the diet part and the changing diet that can really lead to a lot of change like if we not incorporate nuts everywhere because that has its issues but if we like just the peas and leg just the, there's massive switches that leads to simply by switching a few things in your diet. And we need to push for a lot of other things, but I think that's a, and it was much healthier. I mean, if you look at the current health crisis, which comes from many different reasons, but very much comes from the industrial chemical driven, input driven farming ways. And then what we eat out of it, it's a massive, an absolute massive one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. The nutritionals behind the food now and then is another crazy comparative point. Yeah. Yeah, there was a lot.
SPEAKER_01:Do you get questions on that? Like vegan cheese compared to dairy cheese? What does it mean for me, for my body, basically? And what do you answer to
SPEAKER_00:that? Yeah, we do. We do actually. We're actually doing a kind of synopsis directly comparing each cheese to the dairy equivalent at the moment. They shape up pretty well. I think one thing, though, that is always worth bearing in mind is we are trying to create cheese. So it's not like it's we're creating a superfood, therefore, that, you know, can taste like cheese, but also So give you your five a day and all of your millions of vitamins and stuff. So we heed caution when people. You shouldn't only eat this. You definitely shouldn't only eat Whirlycroft and you can definitely quote me on that.
SPEAKER_01:And you shouldn't only eat cheese in general. Yeah, no, it's part of a diet, obviously, of a hopefully diverse.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. And what would you be busy this year? We're still sort of at the beginning of 2020. Not really. We're in March already. Don't know how fast that went, but what's your, apart from the whole ingredient the launching, the new cheeses or improved cheeses or changed cheeses, what other big projects are you working on? If you could actually work on something else because this is a massive one.
SPEAKER_00:No, so that's taking up a lot of time, the switch from nut concert to beans and legumes. But we're also just about to release our first impact report. And so that's been a real focus for the team this year.
SPEAKER_01:Which should be out at the moment. I will link it below, obviously, for anybody listening, which should be out by the time this interview is out.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Yeah. And we're also doing some big campaigns this year to try and get and buying from other kind of plant-based producers and, well, any kind of food producer, actually. So the first campaign is surrounding making Mother Nature your CEO. So we appointed Mother Nature as our CEO last year. How
SPEAKER_01:has that been?
SPEAKER_00:She's doing an excellent job.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, great.
SPEAKER_00:She's been tough in places, but yeah, she's kept something straight and narrow, that's for sure. But no, we've put in quite a few requirements that a company needs to follow up on if they do make this appointment because we don't want it just to be an appointment and then it's kind of left there. We do want to introduce certain requirements. So the sort of things we're looking at is committing to writing an impact report within two years, publishing emissions on packaging within a timeframe, looking at accreditations like B Corp and other kind of accreditations. So yeah, a set of goals to work towards, essentially. That's a campaign we're doing in April. And then we're also putting our emissions on our packaging this year, which will be a really nice step, I think, because that's us really then saying to the consumers and to all of our sellers, you know, that this is something that we really think should be given greater attention. So I would say those are the real, real core projects. And we're also really trying to make improvements on our supply chain and have our first two organic products coming out this year, which is really exciting. But there's still a lot of work to be done on the supply chain side.
SPEAKER_01:I can imagine. And I love asking this question, slightly edited from John Kempf. What do you believe to be true about regenerative agriculture and food that others don't believe to be true?
SPEAKER_00:I do genuinely believe that it can be a label, a consumer label. I think organics virtues have led to some incredible improvements to the produce of food over the last 30 years but i'm very glad that we're taking the next step because organic does have its limitations in certain countries
SPEAKER_01:are you going after roc like regenerative organic i will link the interview with elizabeth below which we released recently are you planning to go after let's say organic plus in this case but also adding soil health animal health and obviously social sides to it
SPEAKER_00:that is our goal so So we are hoping this year to know what timeframes we have for that. Because what I am very conscious of is making a statement about when we can achieve this. And we're still in the information gathering phase. So we can comfortably say we're going to be able to get organic with two products this year and many more in the future. But in terms of regenerative organic, which is definitely a goal, I don't want to commit at this stage. But we will do everything in our power to make sure Perfect.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much. I don't think I have any further questions. I would love to check in because I think it's going to be an incredibly busy year for you. You just finished a crowdfunding race actually a few weeks ago or a month ago. And it sounds like you're going to put that to good use and riding the wave of plant-based, I wouldn't say hype, but definitely growth, but asking a lot more questions behind that. So I want to thank you for taking the time to join us and raise some of those questions you've been asking and that many others should as well.
SPEAKER_00:It's been a pleasure. Thank you. very much
SPEAKER_01:for having me and for all the great work you're doing as well.
UNKNOWN:you
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